Seeing beyond the road

[NYYPhil777]

HB hates anything that he perceives as Democratic.  Even though Bloomberg rules New York with an iron fist.

The whole US 66 hype focuses on the attractions on the side of the road and not the road itself.  That's part of the reason I think of US 66 as just another US route, even though I can see it from my front door.

And Tulsa is way nicer than Texarkana.  The culture is much better here.  In a little over a week, a single venue, Cain's Ballroom, is hosting Down and the Smashing Pumpkins, two quality shows in a short amount of time.  When was the last time that happened in Texarkana?

I can't agree with you more about Bloomberg, as much as I love New York.

[cpzilliacus]

(To me it almost sounds like H.B. can't forgive New York because Randy Hersh lived in the metropolitan area and liked it.)

Nothing that personal. I also would not want to spend any appreciable amount of time in the downtowns of Chicago, Washington DC, Atlanta, Los Angeles, San Francisco, or any other large town. I just spent three nights in downtown Louisville and hated it. I spent five nights at the Renaissance in DC about nine years ago at a conference and felt like I was a prisoner in the hotel because it wasn't feasible for me to jump in my truck and drive somewhere anytime I wanted to eat or kill an evening.

H.B., I have mixed feelings about the above.  On the one hand, cities do have some redeeming features, such as cultural (and sometimes civic) activities not available elsewhere, on the other hand, I absolutely respect your desire to omit crowding and traffic congestion from your life.

And that is what separates me from the so-called Smart Growth industry, and promoters of so-called vibrant, livable and "carfree" urban culture.  Most true believers in these activities want to use the power of government at the local, state and national levels to force as many people as possible to live that lifestyle, even though it is pretty obvious to me that a significant percentage of the population of most advanced nations (including the United States) simply do not want that urban (and mobility-constrained) way of living.

[empirestate]

And Tulsa is way nicer than Texarkana.  The culture is much better here.  In a little over a week, a single venue, Cain's Ballroom, is hosting Down and the Smashing Pumpkins, two quality shows in a short amount of time.  When was the last time that happened in Texarkana?

No idea, as I've never been to Texarkana. But it's not a comparative, and while I do enjoy Tulsa quite a lot after a couple of weeklong visits, I'd still want to see Texarkana, even if I know for sure it was a lousier place than Tulsa. That's pretty much my entire point in bringing it up, actually.

[bugo]

What I'm trying to say is that everyone has their own perspective. On roadtrips, some notice scenery, some notice cities and towns, some notice cars, some notice roads, some notice birds and other wildlife.  Riding in a car is sensory overload, and there's no way you can take it all in.  So I concentrate on what interests me.

[hbelkins]

Texarkana strikes me as a mid-sized town with a full freeway bypass. Reminds me of some Kentucky cities like a smaller version of Owensboro or Bowling Green, or maybe Richmond.

Tulsa is a big city.

Jeremy's perception of my likes/dislikes is offbase, but Bloomturd isn't the reason I have no burning desire to visit NYC.

[bugo]

Texarkana is a big small town.  Tulsa is a real city with a skyline.  Texarkana's metro population is 143,027, while Tulsa's is nearly a million at 998,438.  Texarkana is, how you say, a bit of a dump while Tulsa has a lot of really nice areas.  To compare the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

[bugo]

I would never, ever want to live in New York, and I don't think I'd like the chaos or overcrowding, but I'd still like to visit one day just for the experience.  I've visited other big cities and there were plenty of things to keep me busy.  I'd like to visit there just because it's so different from what I'm used to.

[empirestate]

Texarkana is a big small town.  Tulsa is a real city with a skyline.  Texarkana's metro population is 143,027, while Tulsa's is nearly a million at 998,438.  Texarkana is, how you say, a bit of a dump while Tulsa has a lot of really nice areas.  To compare the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

No comparison intended, besides the fact that I'd be equally interested in visiting both, had I been to neither, despite the fact that neither is considered a must-visit by the average populace.

What I'm trying to say is that everyone has their own perspective. On roadtrips, some notice scenery, some notice cities and towns, some notice cars, some notice roads, some notice birds and other wildlife.  Riding in a car is sensory overload, and there's no way you can take it all in.  So I concentrate on what interests me.

And that's the same for me. What interests me is visiting ordinary places as much as those that draw far more travelers.

[bugo]

Texarkana is a big small town.  Tulsa is a real city with a skyline.  Texarkana's metro population is 143,027, while Tulsa's is nearly a million at 998,438.  Texarkana is, how you say, a bit of a dump while Tulsa has a lot of really nice areas.  To compare the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

No comparison intended, besides the fact that I'd be equally interested in visiting both, had I been to neither, despite the fact that neither is considered a must-visit by the average populace.

Texarkana has some interesting roads, but is otherwise boring and everything worth seeing can be seen in an hour.  Tulsa has interesting roads, museums, clubs, and a lot of other things that would take a few days thoroughly explore.  If you're lucky to be here when a good show is playing at Cain's, then absolutely go.  It's a historic club with a great atmosphere.  I'm seeing Down at Cain's tomorrow night and the Smashing Pumpkins a week from Friday.  We don't usually get 2 good concerts in 2 weeks, but we get good shows several times a year.  The last show I went to was Puscifer back in December.  Tulsa is thought of as being a cowtown, but it isn't anymore and it is more interesting than most east or west coasters would imagine.

And that's the same for me. What interests me is visiting ordinary places as much as those that draw far more travelers.

Often times I'll go on a roadtrip and 10 minutes after I get there, I'll want to go exploring.  I love to drive and the longer the trip, the better.  I may be in the minority, but I love driving on rural freeways.  Driving on the open road is so soothing and relaxing, especially if the speed limit is 75 or more and traffic is light.  Driving down 2 lane roads with few passing chances and slow cars in front of me is a nightmare.  There's a time and a place for driving on 2 lane highways, but it's a pain if you're just trying to get somewhere.

[vdeane]

I may be in the minority, but I love driving on rural freeways.  Driving on the open road is so soothing and relaxing, especially if the speed limit is 75 or more and traffic is light.  Driving down 2 lane roads with few passing chances and slow cars in front of me is a nightmare.

Agreed.  I don't understand why some people love two lane roads.  They must not mind the traffic and slower speeds.

[corco]

I may be in the minority, but I love driving on rural freeways.  Driving on the open road is so soothing and relaxing, especially if the speed limit is 75 or more and traffic is light.  Driving down 2 lane roads with few passing chances and slow cars in front of me is a nightmare.

Agreed.  I don't understand why some people love two lane roads.  They must not mind the traffic and slower speeds.

That's exactly it- on a rural freeway you just sort of drive by everything and see a Bennigan's with a giant sign off the freeway every once in a while. I want to see the small towns and enjoy the sights. I don't care if I'm driving a little bit slower- I just plan on it ahead of time, and as long as I'm still on my planned schedule I'm okay- I only get antsy when the two lane road moves slower than I expected.

Rural freeways definitely have their purpose- I do enjoy driving on them, but it's a wholly different experience. It's like comparing a McDonald's cheeseburger to a gourmet burger. They're both delicious and they're both hamburgers, but it's really hard to compare them side by side.

[tdindy88]

Commenting on this, I am a student of geography (at one time literally) and I have always enjoyed ventures into the other places that aren't Indianapolis to explore the communities and land features of the surrounding area. Last year I took two trips into Ohio to explore a combination of roads and communities as well as county clinching. In this case, it was less about the highways and more about the towns. I too like the regular communities and any time I'm in a county seat I usually pull over to take some pictures and walk around the downtown and around the courthouse. For the Ohio trip, the only interstates I was on was in the Columubs area, but that was only because I wanted to clinch I-270 and parts of I-71.

This year I'm doing the same thing only with Michigan and in years past I've done Kentucky and Illinois. In this case the Michigan trip was more highway-based, along US 31, 131 and I-75, but the component of stopping in many of the communities, plus seeing the local scenery was still present. I've seen most Indiana counties and their communities, so my trips within Indiana these days comprise mostly of highway pictures, many for this website, while my trips out of state will have this combination of seeing the communities and highways. The further away the community, the more likely I will stop and walk around it given that I may not return for a long time.

As for driving on the road, in the case of the Ohio and Michigan trips, I will travel the interstates to get to those locations and I will more than often do so at night, waking up around 4 or so in the morning and heading out there so I can cross the state line at sunrise and starting the true part of the trip. At the end of the day, I hope of crossing back over into my own state at sunset with nothing less to take pictures of as I take the quickest way back home.

[1995hoo]

I may be in the minority, but I love driving on rural freeways.  Driving on the open road is so soothing and relaxing, especially if the speed limit is 75 or more and traffic is light.  Driving down 2 lane roads with few passing chances and slow cars in front of me is a nightmare.

Agreed.  I don't understand why some people love two lane roads.  They must not mind the traffic and slower speeds.

I sometimes love them. Not always, but I think most of us can probably understand how you get sick of taking the same route all the time and you want to find other ways to go, or you just get tired of mixing it up with the trucks and the tailgaters out on the Interstate and so the two-lane road can be a respite from that.

No doubt part of one's opinion on this sort of thing might be influenced by where you live and what your normal experience out on "rural" (or perhaps "less urban" might be more appropriate in some places!) highways is like. bugo's comment about being on the open road with a speed limit of 75 or more being relaxing is a good example–here on the East Coast there's only one road with a 75-mph speed limit and it's not one most people ever have reason to use because of its location (I-95 from Bangor to Houlton). The other thing that gets to me is that even on the more rural Interstates on the East Coast–for example, this past Saturday Ms1995hoo and I went out to a winery in Linden, Virginia, via I-66–you encounter so many left-lane hogs and other annoyances that the rural Interstate isn't as relaxing as it should be. I get to the point where since I know many drivers either fear two-lane roads or avoid non-Interstates in general I find that the two-lane road can be more relaxing, and indeed when we left the winery on Saturday I opted for VA-55 instead of I-66 for precisely that reason.

But ultimately for me it kind of gets to the point of asking how far out of my way I'm willing to go and how much time I'm willing to add to the trip. Once I start balancing that equation the type of road becomes more important–100 extra miles via the Interstate is a lot less added time than 100 miles via two-lane roads through the mountains, you know? I need to make a trip to Ohio in a couple of weeks and I've been trying to figure out the best "scenic route" for the trip home (for the trip out we'll go the direct way via I-70 because we need to get there at a particular time). Taking US-50 straight across West Virginia has crossed my mind, but it's all two-lane road once you're east of I-79 and there aren't a lot of passing zones and I think on a Sunday afternoon when we need to go to work the next day that might be too much added time, to the point where I wonder if it makes more sense to take US-35 down to Charleston, then Interstates 64 and I-81 via Beckley, Clifton Forge, and Lexington.

[bugo]

When I drive on a decent 2 lane road, I want to drive 75 anyway. 

[1995hoo]

Sometimes that's true for me too, sometimes not. Really just depends on where I am and where I'm going at the time.

I think there are plenty of two-lane roads I use regularly that are perfectly decent roads but aren't suitable for 75 mph (especially not at night due to concerns about deer).

[kphoger]

Wow, this has disintegrated into a combination NYC/Texarkana/road type prefence/speed limit thread.
Maybe it's only reinforcing my original thought–that we're unable to rise above the hobby, that it's actually an obsession.

[Darkchylde]

For me, it's the allure of not just taking the roads, but seeing how things differ, from the scenery to the signage. I was amazed going to Texas the first time and seeing their frontage road system for interchanges. I was fascinated by the different typeface used on Georgia's BGSs. In Colorado, it was driving across the mountains, in Mississippi it was driving along the beach. Seeing a network of signed secondary routes in Virginia floored me, the same was true for Missouri's lettered highways. Interstate, two-lane, city, rural, it doesn't matter to me. Every road has its quirks along it.

It's a combination of all the little things.

[NE2]

The best option is an old four-lane bypassed by the Interstate. Such as US 441 between Ocala and Gainesville.

[bugo]

The best option is an old four-lane bypassed by the Interstate. Such as US 441 between Ocala and Gainesville.

Even better is one that has been completely decommissioned.  They are rare, but they are out there.

[triplemultiplex]

As far as indulging this hobby too much is concerned, I do often resent the text that tells me how much time I've spent logged in to AA Roads.  I don't really need a reminder of that.

[empirestate]

Texarkana has some interesting roads, but is otherwise boring and everything worth seeing can be seen in an hour.

Well, again, that's exactly my point. To me, part of what's interesting about a place is often the boring stuff left over after you've seen everything worth seeing. The things I remember about Tulsa weren't prominent attractions like Cain's, but simple things like grabbing some coffee or a beer, or trying to find lunch or antique computer equipment at midday in the downtown district. Just seeing what makes the place tick, how its people and neighborhoods are subtly different from everywhere else in this supposedly homogenous country. And yes, I like to see the sights too!

Tulsa is thought of as being a cowtown, but it isn't anymore and it is more interesting than most east or west coasters would imagine.

Tulsa's a great town, and your last remark was pretty spot on for me before I first went. It's actually much more cosmopolitan than OKC in my view, partly because of its longer history. I didn't go to Cain's (interestingly, since music is my profession I don't often seek it out as recreation), but I did note its presence and importance.

If anyone's curious, here are my impressions of Tulsa as first recorded in blog form:
http://tumbleweedsheldon.blogspot.com/2007/12/hundred-years-sooner.html

And OKC, by contrast:
http://tumbleweedsheldon.blogspot.com/2007/10/oct_18.html

[Alps]

Texarkana has some interesting roads, but is otherwise boring and everything worth seeing can be seen in an hour.

www.alpsroads.net/roads/tx/i-30
www.alpsroads.net/roads/tx/us_59
www.alpsroads.net/roads/tx/us_71
www.alpsroads.net/roads/tx/us_82
www.alpsroads.net/roads/tx/viaduct

www.alpsroads.net/roads/ar/i-30
www.alpsroads.net/roads/ar/us_67
www.alpsroads.net/roads/ar/us_71
www.alpsroads.net/roads/ar/ar_245
www.alpsroads.net/roads/ar/ar_296
www.alpsroads.net/roads/ar/cr_138

www.alpsroads.net/www/tx/texark
www.alpsroads.net/www/tx/ar
www.alpsroads.net/www/tx/union

www.alpsroads.net/www/ar/texark
www.alpsroads.net/www/ar/tx
www.alpsroads.net/www/ar/beech_st
www.alpsroads.net/www/ar/broad_st
www.alpsroads.net/www/ar/tex_auto

Oh, sorry, as you were.

[hbelkins]

For me, it's the allure of not just taking the roads, but seeing how things differ, from the scenery to the signage. I was amazed going to Texas the first time and seeing their frontage road system for interchanges. I was fascinated by the different typeface used on Georgia's BGSs. In Colorado, it was driving across the mountains, in Mississippi it was driving along the beach. Seeing a network of signed secondary routes in Virginia floored me, the same was true for Missouri's lettered highways. Interstate, two-lane, city, rural, it doesn't matter to me. Every road has its quirks along it.

It's a combination of all the little things.

When I was a kid and we traveled to a new state, I was always fascinated to see what the state route markers looked like. Even as a 20-something and my dad, brother and I went out west and were coming back home down I-29 and we ducked into Nebraska near Sioux Falls just to enter the state, I was disappointed that we didn't see any Nebraska state route markers on the route we took. When I found Jim Lin's site with all the state route markers posted, in my earliest forays into the Web, I was very happy.

So this has been an interest of mine since childhood.

[empirestate]

When I was a kid and we traveled to a new state, I was always fascinated to see what the state route markers looked like. Even as a 20-something and my dad, brother and I went out west and were coming back home down I-29 and we ducked into Nebraska near Sioux Falls just to enter the state, I was disappointed that we didn't see any Nebraska state route markers on the route we took. When I found Jim Lin's site with all the state route markers posted, in my earliest forays into the Web, I was very happy.

Each time I got to see what a new state's marker looked like, I would draw it around the corresponding page number in my road atlas. It still strikes me how much less information was readily available to us at the time; you actually had to go all the way to a state to see what its route shields looked like, not because the technology didn't exist to disseminate the info (i.e., books), but because it just wasn't important enough for anybody to bother compiling and publishing a comprehensive guide.

[Alps]

When I was a kid and we traveled to a new state, I was always fascinated to see what the state route markers looked like. Even as a 20-something and my dad, brother and I went out west and were coming back home down I-29 and we ducked into Nebraska near Sioux Falls just to enter the state, I was disappointed that we didn't see any Nebraska state route markers on the route we took. When I found Jim Lin's site with all the state route markers posted, in my earliest forays into the Web, I was very happy.

Each time I got to see what a new state's marker looked like, I would draw it around the corresponding page number in my road atlas. It still strikes me how much less information was readily available to us at the time; you actually had to go all the way to a state to see what its route shields looked like, not because the technology didn't exist to disseminate the info (i.e., books), but because it just wasn't important enough for anybody to bother compiling and publishing a comprehensive guide.

I had a list roughly 80% complete of each state's markers and 95% accurate of where all the US highways and Interstates went. I needed this list to draw maps - I preferred not to reuse existing highway numbers so that the place would be truly fictional, and enjoyed drawing them all over the country. Finding this information online was an incredible moment.