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LA is testing asphalt made from plastic bottles

Started by kernals12, December 18, 2020, 04:26:17 PM

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skluth

Quote from: kalvado on December 22, 2020, 05:46:54 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 21, 2020, 11:43:44 PM
Quote from: kernals12Does bitumen not create environmental problems?

I would think bitumen poses its own hazards. But that poses another question. Would bitumen be used as a hot liquid binder in asphalt made with recycled plastic? I'm inclined to think it would still be a necessary ingredient in this new kind of asphalt just like with regular asphalt.

Quote from: skluthRemember microbeads being advertised in shampoos? They were also in cosmetics and toothpaste. Congress banned them in 2015 because they were getting past treatment plants and into the Great Lakes and other waterways.

The whole situation is disgusting. We already have enough failures in our food and water safety systems that all kinds of cattle run-off shit and piss (among many other pollutants) are getting into the food and water we eat and drink. We're doing things barely good enough to get by, just good enough to be barely above third world standards. But let's throw a bunch of hormones and other stuff into our meat. That way we can have kids hitting puberty before age 10!

This microplastics stuff is on a whole other dimension for how pervasive it is in our waterways and the life forms that live in those waters. I don't know if it's just unchecked advertising from Big Pharma or if it's an indication of growing medical problems. But it seems like more people than ever have all sorts of odd allergy issues, gastro-intestinal issues (like IBS, Chron's, etc), ADHD and on and on. I can't help but wonder if that is a side effect to the unnatural foods we're eating, stuff we're drinking and even the air we're breathing in some locations. I'm sure there are other factors involved too (like parents doing lots of drugs and alcohol while pregnant). But the way our food and water is being altered is really pretty scary.

Frankly speaking, after looking at things - I am not totally convinced microplastics are THAT worse than sand.
And a clear result of non-natural foods can be seen in life expectancy. it increased from ~37 years in 18th century when the food was all natural to ~80 years today. Keep in mind, natural selection almost stopped working for humans, so those who, health-wise, should have died as kids (including your's truly) are living much longer and keep farting about poor health care.

That's a far more complex subject and not really relevant here. However, increased life expectancy is largely because poor people are no longer starving, clean drinking water, cleaner air in urban environments, fewer work fatalities, child labor being banned, better hygiene, and most importantly better medical care. People used to just die from severe allergies and auto-immune diseases so fewer people had them. We didn't recognize conditions like autism back then, much less understand them. IMO, organic farming is garbage (it's often worse for the environment). I'll happily eat a GMO-modified tomato. I don't care if my ballpark hot dog has a few ground insects and other things. I care about the environment, but I'm a firm believer in discussing it rationally. For the record, I'm someone who's politically left-of-center. I'll get off my soapbox now. I've offended enough folks.


vdeane

It's also worth noting that the immune system needs to be "calibrated"; as such, a perfectly clean environment with not enough dirt is one of the reasons why there are so many people with allergies today.  Also the fact that the immune system evolved in a world where everyone had at least one parasite, which is no longer true in developed countries.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: skluth on December 22, 2020, 07:06:33 PM
IMO, organic farming is garbage (it's often worse for the environment).

It's garbage because 'organic' food is no more nutrient rich or healthier than 'regular' food.  And it takes MORE land to grow the same amount of food, making it completely unsustainable to feed the world without a severe reduction in population.  It's all slick marketing to appeal to some 'back to nature' mentality some people out there have.  The organic stuff often even tastes worse in blinded taste tests, so it can't even claim to be more delicious.  It gets under my skin because I see people who I otherwise think have the right idea about other issues in society falling for this obvious scam from the organic/non-GMO lobby.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

kernals12

Microplastics are chump change to the raw sewage, detergents, and industrial effluent we used to freely dump into our rivers and lakes.

Rothman

Quote from: kernals12 on December 23, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
Microplastics are chump change to the raw sewage, detergents, and industrial effluent we used to freely dump into our rivers and lakes.
Not sure what your point is here.  Yes, we used to dump that crap in our water and now we try not to.  Same goes for microplastics:  We used to allow them and now we don't.  Both were good actions to take to protect the environment.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on December 23, 2020, 11:13:38 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 23, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
Microplastics are chump change to the raw sewage, detergents, and industrial effluent we used to freely dump into our rivers and lakes.
Not sure what your point is here.  Yes, we used to dump that crap in our water and now we try not to.  Same goes for microplastics:  We used to allow them and now we don't.  Both were good actions to take to protect the environment.
Thing is, there is a different level of good and bad.
Things like acid rains, mercury, or raw sewage are pretty obvious problems, understood and being handled; or - like simple plastic waste (or just regular trash outside designated areas, after all) - being handled slower than one would love to see.
There are problems which are being understood recently, or not yet fully appreciated - drugs in treated sewage, BPA.
And there are problems which seem to be more political than understood; I would say miroplastics fall into that range.

Bobby5280

Microplastics are not an ideology-based political issue. This stuff is a real problem. The problem is bad enough that it makes me want to avoid seafood completely. The oceans are already getting polluted badly enough as it is, but the microplastics stuff adds a whole new layer to the situation.

Plastics are not a benign material safe to eat and digest. They slowly poison the fish and birds that consume them. The chemicals from those ingested plastics wind up in the meat of fish that eat it. The same fish can wind up on your dinner plate. One fish with traces of plastic compounds in its meat may not be enough to harm someone. But it raises the health risks for anyone eating that kind of fish on a regular basis.

There are many other kinds of waste and pollution. We have reasonably effective methods for treating and disposing of sewage. We have many regulations regarding the disposal of hazardous chemicals and materials. Most other developed nations do the same thing. Someone pretty much has to travel to a poor, third world country and/or a highly impoverish area to find places where a flushed toilet dumps directly into a ditch next to the house and then goes straight into a river.

Plastics are a more difficult issue due to the prevalence of single use packages made with plastics (water bottles, food containers, product packaging, etc). If you're going to get rid of used motor oil, a broken air conditioner or some buckets of old paint thinner you can't just throw those things into the garbage can or dump it on the side of a road. But people frequently toss plastic drink bottles and all sorts of other stuff out of the window of a speeding car or off the side of a boat. The plastic materials are not biodegradeable in any traditional sense. The effects of weather, water and incidental impacts just breaks the material into smaller and smaller pieces. In small enough pieces the stuff can be carried into waterways and wind up in lakes or the ocean. There are companies working on ways how to clean up things like the giant trash pile floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. But they're at a loss on how to filter microplastics from the water at any kind of effective scale.

kalvado

Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 23, 2020, 02:31:10 PM
Microplastics are not an ideology-based political issue. This stuff is a real problem. The problem is bad enough that it makes me want to avoid seafood completely. The oceans are already getting polluted badly enough as it is, but the microplastics stuff adds a whole new layer to the situation.

Plastics are not a benign material safe to eat and digest. They slowly poison the fish and birds that consume them. The chemicals from those ingested plastics wind up in the meat of fish that eat it. The same fish can wind up on your dinner plate. One fish with traces of plastic compounds in its meat may not be enough to harm someone. But it raises the health risks for anyone eating that kind of fish on a regular basis.

There are many other kinds of waste and pollution. We have reasonably effective methods for treating and disposing of sewage. We have many regulations regarding the disposal of hazardous chemicals and materials. Most other developed nations do the same thing. Someone pretty much has to travel to a poor, third world country and/or a highly impoverish area to find places where a flushed toilet dumps directly into a ditch next to the house and then goes straight into a river.

Plastics are a more difficult issue due to the prevalence of single use packages made with plastics (water bottles, food containers, product packaging, etc). If you're going to get rid of used motor oil, a broken air conditioner or some buckets of old paint thinner you can't just throw those things into the garbage can or dump it on the side of a road. But people frequently toss plastic drink bottles and all sorts of other stuff out of the window of a speeding car or off the side of a boat. The plastic materials are not biodegradeable in any traditional sense. The effects of weather, water and incidental impacts just breaks the material into smaller and smaller pieces. In small enough pieces the stuff can be carried into waterways and wind up in lakes or the ocean. There are companies working on ways how to clean up things like the giant trash pile floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. But they're at a loss on how to filter microplastics from the water at any kind of effective scale.
Just to put things in perspective - what is your major? Biochemistry, biology?

kphoger

Quote from: skluth on December 21, 2020, 10:14:12 PM
Remember microbeads being advertised in shampoos? They were also in cosmetics and toothpaste. Congress banned them in 2015 because they were getting past treatment plants and into the Great Lakes and other waterways.

Dang, so THAT'S why I can't seem to find any exfoliating body wash in the store lately?  I figured it had to be something like that.  Just last week, though, I noticed a few brands selling exfoliating liquid soap, so now I'm curious to know what they're using these days instead of microbeads.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

skluth

Quote from: kphoger on January 13, 2021, 10:37:33 AM
Quote from: skluth on December 21, 2020, 10:14:12 PM
Remember microbeads being advertised in shampoos? They were also in cosmetics and toothpaste. Congress banned them in 2015 because they were getting past treatment plants and into the Great Lakes and other waterways.

Dang, so THAT'S why I can't seem to find any exfoliating body wash in the store lately?  I figured it had to be something like that.  Just last week, though, I noticed a few brands selling exfoliating liquid soap, so now I'm curious to know what they're using these days instead of microbeads.

There are natural substances that work about as well. Perlite, a volcanic mineral often found in potting soil mixtures, is often used. Biodegradable microbeads can also be manufactured from cellulose. Plastic microbeads are just extremely cheap; they're not unique.

Scott5114

I know Fast Orange hand cleaner (which was the soap of choice at the mechanic shop my dad worked at) has ground-up pumice, a volcanic rock, in it. Talk about exfoliating...it feels like scrubbing your hands with sandpaper!
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kalvado

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 18, 2021, 03:17:06 AM
I know Fast Orange hand cleaner (which was the soap of choice at the mechanic shop my dad worked at) has ground-up pumice, a volcanic rock, in it. Talk about exfoliating...it feels like scrubbing your hands with sandpaper!
now try to think about sewage pumps which have to deal with that stuff...

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 18, 2021, 03:17:06 AM
I know Fast Orange hand cleaner (which was the soap of choice at the mechanic shop my dad worked at) has ground-up pumice, a volcanic rock, in it. Talk about exfoliating...it feels like scrubbing your hands with sandpaper!

Oh yeah, that stuff is great for getting grease off your hands!  I like the NAPA brand one.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

qguy

Quote from: kphoger on January 13, 2021, 10:37:33 AM
Quote from: skluth on December 21, 2020, 10:14:12 PM
Remember microbeads being advertised in shampoos? They were also in cosmetics and toothpaste. Congress banned them in 2015 because they were getting past treatment plants and into the Great Lakes and other waterways.
Dang, so THAT'S why I can't seem to find any exfoliating body wash in the store lately?  I figured it had to be something like that.  Just last week, though, I noticed a few brands selling exfoliating liquid soap, so now I'm curious to know what they're using these days instead of microbeads.

Quote from: kphoger on January 18, 2021, 12:09:08 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 18, 2021, 03:17:06 AM
I know Fast Orange hand cleaner (which was the soap of choice at the mechanic shop my dad worked at) has ground-up pumice, a volcanic rock, in it. Talk about exfoliating...it feels like scrubbing your hands with sandpaper!
Oh yeah, that stuff is great for getting grease off your hands!  I like the NAPA brand one.

I was about to jokingly suggest feldspar, the component of many sandpapers, as an alternative to microbeads, but yeah, Lava soap has pumice in it as well.

kphoger

My dad, being a bicycle-building guy, keeps a tub of the Phil Wood brand in the kitchen.  I don't know what's in it, though.

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kernals12


Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on February 08, 2021, 08:31:41 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 08, 2021, 12:36:01 AM
WHO finds no evidence that microplastics are harmful
Nice to know you trust the WHO.  Please accept their coronavirus recommendations.
Frankly speaking,  I don't see anything really damning regarding micropastics. Looks like normal caution spiced up with alarmist agenda. Release of methane from plastic decomposition and associated greenhouse effects seem to be one of bigger concerns.
Help to mitigate the problem, stop farting!

hotdogPi

Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

SectorZ

Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2021, 08:45:00 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 08, 2021, 08:31:41 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 08, 2021, 12:36:01 AM
WHO finds no evidence that microplastics are harmful
Nice to know you trust the WHO.  Please accept their coronavirus recommendations.
Frankly speaking,  I don't see anything really damning regarding micropastics. Looks like normal caution spiced up with alarmist agenda. Release of methane from plastic decomposition and associated greenhouse effects seem to be one of bigger concerns.
Help to mitigate the problem, stop farting!

Just because it isn't harmful to us doesn't mean it's not harmful to other stuff on the planet.

kernals12

Quote from: SectorZ on February 08, 2021, 09:07:43 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2021, 08:45:00 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 08, 2021, 08:31:41 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 08, 2021, 12:36:01 AM
WHO finds no evidence that microplastics are harmful
Nice to know you trust the WHO.  Please accept their coronavirus recommendations.
Frankly speaking,  I don't see anything really damning regarding micropastics. Looks like normal caution spiced up with alarmist agenda. Release of methane from plastic decomposition and associated greenhouse effects seem to be one of bigger concerns.
Help to mitigate the problem, stop farting!

Just because it isn't harmful to us doesn't mean it's not harmful to other stuff on the planet.

But the burden of proof is on the people who claim it's harmful.

SectorZ


kalvado

Quote from: SectorZ on February 08, 2021, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 08, 2021, 10:22:24 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 08, 2021, 09:07:43 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2021, 08:45:00 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 08, 2021, 08:31:41 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 08, 2021, 12:36:01 AM
WHO finds no evidence that microplastics are harmful
Nice to know you trust the WHO.  Please accept their coronavirus recommendations.
Frankly speaking,  I don't see anything really damning regarding micropastics. Looks like normal caution spiced up with alarmist agenda. Release of methane from plastic decomposition and associated greenhouse effects seem to be one of bigger concerns.
Help to mitigate the problem, stop farting!

Just because it isn't harmful to us doesn't mean it's not harmful to other stuff on the planet.

But the burden of proof is on the people who claim it's harmful.

Burden met...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/from-fish-to-humans-a-microplastic-invasion-may-be-taking-a-toll/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariellasimke/2020/01/21/there-is-plastic-in-your-fish/?sh=3ea5a8037071
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2019/05/microplastics-impact-on-fish-shown-in-pictures/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6132564/
https://www.wired.com/story/baby-fish-are-feasting-on-microplastics/
https://phys.org/news/2020-10-fish-microplastics-die-younger.html
There is approximately 1 research article in the list, and the conclusion is
QuoteShellfish and other animals consumed whole pose particular concern for human exposure. If there is toxicity, it is likely dependent on...
Things like Scientific American shouldn't be touched without at least 10 foot pole.

I looked quite a bit deeper, and there is very little conclusive information about harm.
There is definitely a phenomenon of chemical absorbtion on plastic surfaces, e.g. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0043135418302835
But that is not unique for plastic. Crashed shells would exhibit similar behavior, as well as aquatic plants which tend to concentrate a lot of things.
Everything else seem to be pretty remote guesswork.

SectorZ

Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2021, 01:23:16 PM
Things like Scientific American shouldn't be touched without at least 10 foot pole.

Yeah, 175 years of quackery coming from them...  :paranoid:

kalvado

Quote from: SectorZ on February 08, 2021, 01:37:37 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2021, 01:23:16 PM
Things like Scientific American shouldn't be touched without at least 10 foot pole.

Yeah, 175 years of quackery coming from them...  :paranoid:
Well, CNN and FOX had been respectable news outlets at some point as well.



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