The intent of this thread is to capture word messages which appear on signs and are difficult for the ordinary motorist to understand as a result of, e.g., use of specialized terminology or references to unfamiliar regulatory frameworks, but not purely because they are in a different language. Submissions are welcome regardless of language.
A few examples to kick this off:
GREEN RIVER ORDINANCE ENFORCED--generally means "businesses must obtain a license to operate in this jurisdiction" (the requirement to be licensed is designed to curb fly-by-night operators, and is called "Green River ordinance" on these signs apparently because it was pioneered in the town of Green River, Wyoming)
SADDLE MOUNTS MUST STOP--I have only ever seen this particular message on signs in Wyoming, but I think the relevant legal requirement must apply more generally. "Saddle mount" in this context has nothing to do with horseback riding, but refers instead to one tractor unit being towed by another, with the towed tractor's front axle off the ground and secured to the back of the towing unit at the latter's hitch (so that the towed unit seems to be "riding" the towing unit). In Wyoming these combinations must stop at designated Ports of Entry (which are weigh stations by another name)
FUEL--MILEAGE--PRORATION--This is a standard sign in Nebraska and appears to be used to designate refueling points like truck stops where (as I understand it) truckers can validate mileage travelled in Nebraska for IFTA purposes
How about " Town Of Durand Zoning Permit Required"
No Parking on Pavement or Parkway.
Stop Here for Pedestrians might as well be given the horrible compliance.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 02, 2012, 08:39:26 PM
GREEN RIVER ORDINANCE ENFORCED--generally means "businesses must obtain a license to operate in this jurisdiction" (the requirement to be licensed is designed to curb fly-by-night operators, and is called "Green River ordinance" on these signs apparently because it was pioneered in the town of Green River, Wyoming)
Green River Ordinance is intended to restrict door to door sales (such as the Fuller Brush Man). Many towns in Arkansas have this, though enforcement has been rather lax in the last few years.
EXEMPT - as applied to a railroad crossing in California. anyone know what it means, apart from railroad and highway workers?
for a colloquialism: TEXAS GATE in Alberta. that said, the item in question is right next to the warning sign and can be glarked from context readily - it is what is known in the US as a cattle guard.
and a colloquialism which has passed out of use since the 50s: BLOCK MOTHER AREA. It sounds like a Pink Floyd song title, but the Block Mother was the person who was responsible for finding all the children after the bomb hit.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 02, 2012, 09:07:51 PM
EXEMPT - as applied to a railroad crossing in California. anyone know what it means, apart from railroad and highway workers?
It means that vehicles that are required to stop at railroad crossings are exempt from having to stop at crossings marked as exempt.
Quote from: bugo on July 02, 2012, 09:11:29 PM
It means that vehicles that are required to stop at railroad crossings are exempt from having to stop at crossings marked as exempt.
I think, then, that it qualifies for this thread, as the ordinary motorist would not have much idea what it means.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 02, 2012, 09:14:28 PM
Quote from: bugo on July 02, 2012, 09:11:29 PM
It means that vehicles that are required to stop at railroad crossings are exempt from having to stop at crossings marked as exempt.
I think, then, that it qualifies for this thread, as the ordinary motorist would not have much idea what it means.
I think it's common nationwide, not just California. I'm pretty sure it's explained the Washington driver's manual.
Oklahoma has it too. I was confused at first but was able to puzzle through its meaning when the school bus I was on didn't stop for the tracks, and seeing the plaque in other circumstances where it would be dangerous for vehicles to have to come to a complete stop (the James River Freeway comes to mind).
They are also posted in Indiana. As the posting of the EXEMPT sign coincided with the paving over of the RR crossing, I was able to figure it out.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 02, 2012, 11:03:12 PM
Oklahoma has it too. I was confused at first but was able to puzzle through its meaning when the school bus I was on didn't stop for the tracks, and seeing the plaque in other circumstances where it would be dangerous for vehicles to have to come to a complete stop (the James River Freeway comes to mind).
Thank goodness that (JRF) won't be a problem much longer.
Arkansas, BTW, also has "Exempt" crossings...not that I can think f any off-hand.
The "EXEMPT" sign is in the MUTCD and is standard nationally.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part8/fig8b_01_longdesc.htm
if a railroad crossing is paved over, is it still a railroad crossing?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 02, 2012, 11:26:50 PM
if a railroad crossing is paved over, is it still a railroad crossing?
No but often the signs remain since there's no point in bothering to go to the expense of taking them down, thus exempt plaques.
Also, they taught us what that means in Virginia, I never had any question about it.
A lot of people question "THICKLY SETTLED" in Massachusetts, but it seems intuitive to me. It is an area that has been settled thickly, or to a high density.
Quote from: US71 on July 02, 2012, 11:14:32 PM
Arkansas, BTW, also has "Exempt" crossings...not that I can think f any off-hand.
There used to be one on US 70B east of AR 7 along Grand Avenue. It might still be there.
Are there any signs still standing that say "BURN LIGHTS WITH WIPERS"?
Quote from: Kacie Jane on July 02, 2012, 10:46:12 PMI think it's common nationwide, not just California. I'm pretty sure it's explained the Washington driver's manual.
The "EXEMPT" sign is in the
MUTCD. Where California is bug-eyed weird is in having
two different versions of the "EXEMPT" sign, with slightly different meaning (if memory serves, one sign covers a class of vehicles the other doesn't).
Quote from: Steve on July 02, 2012, 11:36:21 PM
A lot of people question "THICKLY SETTLED" in Massachusetts, but it seems intuitive to me. It is an area that has been settled thickly, or to a high density.
An alternate version of this meaning that I've seen is "Congested Area", which is less intuitive...
Quote from: vtk on July 03, 2012, 12:41:44 AM
Are there any signs still standing that say "BURN LIGHTS WITH WIPERS"?
I imagine many of these might be replaced with the newer slogan "Wipers On, Lights On". There may even be a new MUTCD standard sign for this instruction...
Quote from: vtk on July 03, 2012, 12:41:44 AM
Are there any signs still standing that say "BURN LIGHTS WITH WIPERS"?
North Carolina uses a version of that: "State Law [underscore separator] Burn Headlights When Using Wipers." The signs aren't particularly big nor prominent, either. "Invisible cars" in the rain or snow are a pet peeve of mine and I wish these signs would be made very noticeable.
Regarding cryptic messages, the average motorist might scratch his head at the signs in Florida that say "PREPASS Follow In-Cab Signals." These signs appear in advance of weigh stations and are targeted at truck drivers. They're an example of a sign where the people who need to know what it means will understand it. I recall when signs using the term "HAZMAT Carriers" first appeared on the Beltway in Virginia a lot of car drivers were confused by them (the signs were later amended to say "HAZMAT Trucks"), but again, the people who needed to be concerned about the lane restrictions for HAZMAT carriers knew what the term meant.
Quote from: Steve on July 02, 2012, 11:36:21 PM
A lot of people question "THICKLY SETTLED" in Massachusetts, but it seems intuitive to me. It is an area that has been settled thickly, or to a high density.
the usage renders it unintuitive. you see it in rural parts of the state where the population density is 20% more than surrounding farmlands - but you don't see it in Boston, or in suburbs!
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 03, 2012, 02:29:01 AM
The "EXEMPT" sign is in the MUTCD. Where California is bug-eyed weird is in having two different versions of the "EXEMPT" sign, with slightly different meaning (if memory serves, one sign covers a class of vehicles the other doesn't).
on a related note, California has SPEED LIMIT and MAXIMUM SPEED signs. there
is a difference, but you effectively need to pass the bar to know what it is.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 03, 2012, 09:55:24 AM
on a related note, California has SPEED LIMIT and MAXIMUM SPEED signs. there is a difference, but you effectively need to pass the bar to know what it is.
IIRC, Caltrans is no longer posting signs that say MAXIMUM SPEED although they aren't actively replacing existing signs. In other words, MAXIMUM SPEED signs can remain until they are damaged or replaced due to age.
Here's a snippet from Wikipedia that explains why California had to post MAXIMUM SPEED signs...
Quote from: wikipediaWhen the National Maximum Speed Law was enacted, California was forced to create a new legal signage category, "Maximum Speed", to indicate to drivers that the Basic Speed Law did not apply for speeds over the federally mandated speed cap; rather, it would be a violation to exceed the fixed maximum speed indicated on the sign, regardless of whether the driver's speed could be considered "reasonable and prudent".
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2012, 07:33:57 AM
Quote from: vtk on July 03, 2012, 12:41:44 AM
Are there any signs still standing that say "BURN LIGHTS WITH WIPERS"?
North Carolina uses a version of that: "State Law [underscore separator] Burn Headlights When Using Wipers." The signs aren't particularly big nor prominent, either. "Invisible cars" in the rain or snow are a pet peeve of mine and I wish these signs would be made very noticeable.
The Tar Heel State also posts "Motorcycles Burn Headlights" at many (most?) (all?) highways entering the state.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2012, 07:33:57 AM
They're an example of a sign where the people who need to know what it means will understand it. I recall when signs using the term "HAZMAT Carriers" first appeared on the Beltway in Virginia a lot of car drivers were confused by them (the signs were later amended to say "HAZMAT Trucks"), but again, the people who needed to be concerned about the lane restrictions for HAZMAT carriers knew what the term meant.
Reminds me of Pennsylvania's
No Placarded Loads or
Placarded Loads Use Route XXX signs, which are (perhaps) not so obvious to drivers of automobiles - but truck drivers are supposed to know what those mean.
For a while, the District of Columbia used to program the (many) portable variable message signs at its borders to flash this message on weekends (1) EVENTS DWNTWN (2) AVOID DLY (3) USE METRO, though I think someone pointed out to the DDOT staff that WMATA does a lot of track work (and single-tracking, which results in headways (sometimes) of 30 minutes or more), so using Metrorail does not "avoid dly" for the people that ride it.
I also recall reading that the MUTCD (or a related document) specifically says that "dly" is not to be used as an abbreviation for "delay."
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 02, 2012, 09:10:03 PM
and a colloquialism which has passed out of use since the 50s: BLOCK MOTHER AREA. It sounds like a Pink Floyd song title, but the Block Mother was the person who was responsible for finding all the children after the bomb hit.
- shudder -
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 03, 2012, 12:20:50 PM
For a while, the District of Columbia used to program the (many) portable variable message signs at its borders to flash this message on weekends (1) EVENTS DWNTWN (2) AVOID DLY (3) USE METRO, though I think someone pointed out to the DDOT staff that WMATA does a lot of track work (and single-tracking, which results in headways (sometimes) of 30 minutes or more), so using Metrorail does not "avoid dly" for the people that ride it.
I also recall reading that the MUTCD (or a related document) specifically says that "dly" is not to be used as an abbreviation for "delay."
I first read it as "avoid daily." Which might be a wise course of action....
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 02, 2012, 08:39:26 PM
GREEN RIVER ORDINANCE ENFORCED--generally means "businesses must obtain a license to operate in this jurisdiction" (the requirement to be licensed is designed to curb fly-by-night operators, and is called "Green River ordinance" on these signs apparently because it was pioneered in the town of Green River, Wyoming)
And I thought it had something to do with a certain Creedence Clearwater Revival song, or a law pertaining to CCR music in general... :-D
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 03, 2012, 12:20:50 PM
For a while, the District of Columbia used to program the (many) portable variable message signs at its borders to flash this message on weekends (1) EVENTS DWNTWN (2) AVOID DLY (3) USE METRO, though I think someone pointed out to the DDOT staff that WMATA does a lot of track work (and single-tracking, which results in headways (sometimes) of 30 minutes or more), so using Metrorail does not "avoid dly" for the people that ride it.
I also recall reading that the MUTCD (or a related document) specifically says that "dly" is not to be used as an abbreviation for "delay."
I also recall that PVMS have three lines of 8 characters each, rendering the abbreviations pointless.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2012, 07:33:57 AM
Regarding cryptic messages, the average motorist might scratch his head at the signs in Florida that say "PREPASS Follow In-Cab Signals." These signs appear in advance of weigh stations and are targeted at truck drivers. They're an example of a sign where the people who need to know what it means will understand it.
Not just Florida. This sign bugs the hell out of me, because it's the only one I still haven't figured out. (In fact, before I looked it up online the first time, I invented my own concept of "prepassing" that still gets stuck in my head.)
Seen in Texas: HC MUST USE ____
It's for hazardous cargo, but it's a good thing my initials aren't H.C.
Safe Place
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhardlynormal.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2Fsafeplace.gif&hash=2ef99fc7136f25c2045b4fe40924f0d740e75454)
Quote from: kphoger on July 03, 2012, 08:27:51 PM
Safe Place
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhardlynormal.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2Fsafeplace.gif&hash=2ef99fc7136f25c2045b4fe40924f0d740e75454)
Yeah I've seen those and I'm not quite sure what the deal is. I mean I guess if you're a kid running from a mugger or a pedophile or something you'd want to run to a place with this sign, right? But usually it's just a Kroger grocery store or something, and are the employees really prepared to offer the necessary protection?
Quote from: vtk on July 03, 2012, 08:44:47 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 03, 2012, 08:27:51 PM
Safe Place
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhardlynormal.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2Fsafeplace.gif&hash=2ef99fc7136f25c2045b4fe40924f0d740e75454)
Yeah I've seen those and I'm not quite sure what the deal is. I mean I guess if you're a kid running from a mugger or a pedophile or something you'd want to run to a place with this sign, right? But usually it's just a Kroger grocery store or something, and are the employees really prepared to offer the necessary protection?
My apartment is a safer place than a grocery store, because unlike their employees, I have no qualms about using deadly force should someone attempt to enter feloniously. Most places instruct employees to duck and run in the face of force.
that "Safe Place" looks foreboding - like the foreground character is being grabbed from behind by a demon ghost.
that's about the last thing I'd consider safe if I were a small child.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 03, 2012, 12:08:11 PM
The Tar Heel State also posts "Motorcycles Burn Headlights" at many (most?) (all?) highways entering the state.
Why should motorcyclists burn their headlights? Wouldn't it be better if they turned them on or illuminated them or used them?
Yeah, the HC signs were puzzling the first time I saw them as well.
Steve, what did you think the "prepass" signs meant?
Quote from: myosh_tino on July 03, 2012, 11:55:42 AM
Here's a snippet from Wikipedia that explains why California had to post MAXIMUM SPEED signs...
Quote from: wikipediaWhen the National Maximum Speed Law was enacted, California was forced to create a new legal signage category, "Maximum Speed", to indicate to drivers that the Basic Speed Law did not apply for speeds over the federally mandated speed cap; rather, it would be a violation to exceed the fixed maximum speed indicated on the sign, regardless of whether the driver's speed could be considered "reasonable and prudent".
Seems to me that it would had been far simpler (and much less expensive) for California to just amend the basic speed law to read "reasonable and prudent, unless otherwise posted."
Quote from: Steve on July 03, 2012, 08:06:55 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 03, 2012, 12:20:50 PM
For a while, the District of Columbia used to program the (many) portable variable message signs at its borders to flash this message on weekends (1) EVENTS DWNTWN (2) AVOID DLY (3) USE METRO, though I think someone pointed out to the DDOT staff that WMATA does a lot of track work (and single-tracking, which results in headways (sometimes) of 30 minutes or more), so using Metrorail does not "avoid dly" for the people that ride it.
I also recall reading that the MUTCD (or a related document) specifically says that "dly" is not to be used as an abbreviation for "delay."
I also recall that PVMS have three lines of 8 characters each, rendering the abbreviations pointless.
These units (since replaced) were
smaller than the "conventional" portable VMS units that are normally deployed along U.S. highways - in terms of the number of characters that could be displayed, and the size of those characters.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on July 03, 2012, 01:03:12 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 03, 2012, 12:20:50 PM
For a while, the District of Columbia used to program the (many) portable variable message signs at its borders to flash this message on weekends (1) EVENTS DWNTWN (2) AVOID DLY (3) USE METRO, though I think someone pointed out to the DDOT staff that WMATA does a lot of track work (and single-tracking, which results in headways (sometimes) of 30 minutes or more), so using Metrorail does not "avoid dly" for the people that ride it.
I also recall reading that the MUTCD (or a related document) specifically says that "dly" is not to be used as an abbreviation for "delay."
I first read it as "avoid daily." Which might be a wise course of action....
On this 4th of July it would have been - at least on the Green Line, where there was more than a little bit of "dly:"
Rebellion on the Green Line: Passengers flee stalled Metro train (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/rebellion-on-the-green-line-as-passengers-flee-stalled-metro-train/2012/07/04/gJQA7rk7NW_story.html)
Connecticut used to post "ROAD LEGALLY CLOSED" (use at your own risk) when road construction was in progress.
ODOT posted a cryptic-at-first-glance VMS once, informing the motoring public "I-35 NB RAMP 2 B CLOSED". After I passed the sign I puzzled over it for about five minutes, trying to figure out which ramp could possibly be ramp 2B, since that is not a valid I-35 exit number (and it'd be about a hundred miles south of the VMS if it was). Then I was thinking it must be some sort of ODOT internal ramp designation scheme, but that didn't make sense to be on a VMS...
Five minutes later I realized it was text speak. "I-35 northbound ramp to be closed".
Quote from: kurumi on July 05, 2012, 02:31:52 AM
Connecticut used to post "ROAD LEGALLY CLOSED" (use at your own risk) when road construction was in progress.
The current signage they use is still pretty cryptic -
"ROAD USE RESTRICTED
STATE LIABILITY LIMITED
[citation of relevant laws]"
Quote from: myosh_tino on July 03, 2012, 11:55:42 AM
Here's a snippet from Wikipedia that explains why California had to post MAXIMUM SPEED signs...
Quote from: wikipediaWhen the National Maximum Speed Law was enacted, California was forced to create a new legal signage category, "Maximum Speed", to indicate to drivers that the Basic Speed Law did not apply for speeds over the federally mandated speed cap; rather, it would be a violation to exceed the fixed maximum speed indicated on the sign, regardless of whether the driver's speed could be considered "reasonable and prudent".
the "basic speed law" is another thing which requires eight high-powered lawyers to understand. in reality, it's "has the cop failed to have his donut this morning? does the jurisdiction need the revenue?", in which case there's no way you're talking yourself out of that ticket.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2012, 05:38:49 AM
ODOT posted a cryptic-at-first-glance VMS once, informing the motoring public "I-35 NB RAMP 2 B CLOSED". After I passed the sign I puzzled over it for about five minutes, trying to figure out which ramp could possibly be ramp 2B, since that is not a valid I-35 exit number (and it'd be about a hundred miles south of the VMS if it was). Then I was thinking it must be some sort of ODOT internal ramp designation scheme, but that didn't make sense to be on a VMS...
Five minutes later I realized it was text speak. "I-35 northbound ramp to be closed".
i s4w sth lyk THTHTHTHTHT 2. L00000L!!!!!!!!!!!!OMg pwzn0r all ur BAISE
(god damn, do I hate text speak.)
NO TRUCKS WITH
R PERMITS - found on bridges all over NYS. Not much of a permit if it precludes you from so many roads!
CERTIFIED BUSINESS LOCATION - accompanies town name markers throughout WV.
FROST HEAVES probably looks weird to people from places that don't get these.
Then there are the Z's and the 2/3-of-the-Delorean-logos (backwards C followed by regular C; just minus the M) that appear all over the NJ Turnpike. Took me a while to figure out they're not actually letters, but symbols showing where median breaks are. Z's mean a break between same-direction roadways, and the Delorean sign means it's in the center median. (Although I believe the Delorean can also be used for other types of U-turns, such as authorized-only crossunder ramps.)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 03, 2012, 09:54:34 AM
Quote from: Steve on July 02, 2012, 11:36:21 PM
A lot of people question "THICKLY SETTLED" in Massachusetts, but it seems intuitive to me. It is an area that has been settled thickly, or to a high density.
the usage renders it unintuitive. you see it in rural parts of the state where the population density is 20% more than surrounding farmlands - but you don't see it in Boston, or in suburbs!
Well, you may have inadvertently hit on it, actually. In a rural area, the relative density of even a small village is a condition change from the surrounding area. In the Boston area, although the density is much, much greater, it is also widespread, so there's no immediate change from the surroundings to warrant posting.
Quote from: kphoger on July 03, 2012, 08:27:51 PM
Safe Place
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhardlynormal.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2Fsafeplace.gif&hash=2ef99fc7136f25c2045b4fe40924f0d740e75454)
They're typically used for fire and police departments, hospitals, and the like to denote a safe place for a child where there might be people of authority, or at least, a
great number of people who could help. We're looking from the perspective of adults, but kids could go there if they were totally lost or whatever; I don't think the theory was have bullying force met with intimidating force. They're not road signs in any way I've ever seen, as they're placed on building entrances.
Even odder were a handful of of "baby drop" signs with storks on them, in which mothers could leave their newborns with no reprisal nor penalty. Only saw a few of those, and they were exclusive to hospitals, police, and fire departments.
I would think that
DLY meant "daily" and not "delay". Include a vowel when text-speaking a difference between two common words,
'mkay?
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2012, 05:38:49 AM
ODOT posted a cryptic-at-first-glance VMS once, informing the motoring public "I-35 NB RAMP 2 B CLOSED". After I passed the sign I puzzled over it for about five minutes, trying to figure out which ramp could possibly be ramp 2B, since that is not a valid I-35 exit number (and it'd be about a hundred miles south of the VMS if it was). Then I was thinking it must be some sort of ODOT internal ramp designation scheme, but that didn't make sense to be on a VMS...
Five minutes later I realized it was text speak. "I-35 northbound ramp to be closed".
I didn't think the MUTCD allowed for texting abbreviations on VMS signs. It would have worked better to say "I-35 NB RAMP TO CLOSE"
Quote from: Steve on July 02, 2012, 11:36:21 PM
A lot of people question "THICKLY SETTLED" in Massachusetts, but it seems intuitive to me. It is an area that has been settled thickly, or to a high density.
Not necessarily. That sign is a reference to the basic speed law in Massachusetts (General Laws, chapter 90, section 17), which begins: "No person operating a motor vehicle on any way shall run it at a rate of speed greater than is reasonable and proper." A "thickly settled" area is defined in chapter 90, section 1 as either:
1) an area of houses with an average separation of less than 200 feet over a distance of 1/4 mile or more, or
2) a business district.
Exceeding 30 mph for 1/8 mile or more in a thickly settled district is prima facie evidence of unreasonable speed, although at a hearing the cited driver is permitted to introduce evidence that the speed was reasonable at the time.
Quote from: formulanone on July 06, 2012, 10:23:29 AM
I would think that DLY meant "daily" and not "delay". Include a vowel when text-speaking a difference between two common words, 'mkay?
The MUTCD actually mentions "daily" as a common misinterpretation of "DLY" in a table listing unacceptable abbreviations. It actually specifically says that DLY is verboten as an abbreviation for Delay because it is easily misunderstood as Daily. Seems that they had it right!
Quote from: SidS1045 on July 09, 2012, 11:16:57 AM
Not necessarily. That sign is a reference to the basic speed law in Massachusetts (General Laws, chapter 90, section 17), which begins: "No person operating a motor vehicle on any way shall run it at a rate of speed greater than is reasonable and proper." A "thickly settled" area is defined in chapter 90, section 1 as either:
1) an area of houses with an average separation of less than 200 feet over a distance of 1/4 mile or more, or
2) a business district.
Exceeding 30 mph for 1/8 mile or more in a thickly settled district is prima facie evidence of unreasonable speed, although at a hearing the cited driver is permitted to introduce evidence that the speed was reasonable at the time.
I got my driver's license in Massachusetts and even I don't remember that! I can't imagine any out-of-stater knowing it.
then again, I barely understand what "prima facie" means. as far as I can tell, it's "does the jurisdiction need the revenue today?"
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 12:10:27 PMI got my driver's license in Massachusetts and even I don't remember that! I can't imagine any out-of-stater knowing it.
It is conceptually similar to how 30 MPH zones are defined in Britain--any road illuminated by a system of streetlighting with columns spaced no further than 200 yards apart is subject to a 30 limit (with certain defined exclusions, which trigger a requirement that repeater signs be used to indicate that a limit other than 30 is in effect). However, the law in Britain also requires that 30 MPH speed limit roundels be used at the entries to 30 MPH zones thus defined before the 30 limit is enforceable.
Quotethen again, I barely understand what "prima facie" means. as far as I can tell, it's "does the jurisdiction need the revenue today?"
Prima facie basically means conditional liability. If you exceed the limit and are cited for it, you can rebut the presumption of liability by presenting evidence to show that your speed was not unsafe or unreasonable under the conditions. If you do not present rebutting evidence, or the evidence you do present is not accepted, then you are held criminally liable. With so-called "absolute" speed limits the liability is strict and unconditional: you cannot acknowledge that you were going above the speed limit and escape the liability by arguing that the speed was not unsafe or unreasonable.
I don't feel
prima facie limits represent a genuine concession to motorists since the evidentiary hurdles that must be climbed in order to prove a given speed was not unsafe or unreasonable under the conditions in which the speeding citation was issued are quite high. The exact conditions are generally impossible to reproduce precisely in every detail (Heraclitus: "Nobody steps in the same river twice"), and the witnesses most likely to be believed by the judge or jury work for the other side. It is much more fruitful to hunt for some technical fault which makes the speeding citation legally insufficient: defects in signing, defects in calibration and certification of the enforcement equipment, defects in legal documentation of the speed limit, illegal operation of a speed trap in a jurisdiction which prohibits speed trapping, etc.
indeed, it seems one's best bet to get out of a ticket is to get on the officer's good side at the time of the traffic stop!
and no, there is absolutely no way in Hell I would know that the street lighting in Britain influenced the speed limit. is there a sign to this effect at the borders?
continental European unsigned speed limits are much more well-defined - the various road classifications and "built up area" signs are consistent, and the speeds assigned to them are announced at international borders.
Quote from: Steve on July 03, 2012, 08:06:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2012, 07:33:57 AM
Regarding cryptic messages, the average motorist might scratch his head at the signs in Florida that say "PREPASS Follow In-Cab Signals." These signs appear in advance of weigh stations and are targeted at truck drivers. They're an example of a sign where the people who need to know what it means will understand it.
Not just Florida. This sign bugs the hell out of me, because it's the only one I still haven't figured out. (In fact, before I looked it up online the first time, I invented my own concept of "prepassing" that still gets stuck in my head.)
Yea, 'Prepass™' is a pre-clearence system that allows big-rigs that have been pre-cleared to bypass truck scales and inspection stations while en route. They use in-cab signal transponders that are tied to a nationwide system.
http://www.prepass.com
--------------
The one that had me scratching my head the first time that I saw it were the 'DON'T BLOCK THE BOX' signs in NYC.
Mike
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 03, 2012, 09:54:34 AM
the usage renders it unintuitive. you see it in rural parts of the state where the population density is 20% more than surrounding farmlands - but you don't see it in Boston, or in suburbs!
I'd have to guess that this is because, under the legal definition of a "thickly settled" district, it might not be immediately obvious in an otherwise rural setting that you're driving in one. In Boston or the suburbs it's a no-brainer.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 12:10:27 PM
I got my driver's license in Massachusetts...
...as did I.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 12:10:27 PM...and even I don't remember that! I can't imagine any out-of-stater knowing it.
It's actually quite rare these days that there isn't a posted limit in most areas of Massachusetts, including "thickly settled" districts. I recalled it only because it was drilled into us in driver-ed way back when, in a time when there were fewer posted speed limits and you really had to know the prima facie limits to stay out of trouble. I think it was also on my learner's permit test.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 01:18:18 PMand no, there is absolutely no way in Hell I would know that the street lighting in Britain influenced the speed limit. is there a sign to this effect at the borders?
No, but whenever you enter a 30 zone (or a 20 zone, rather than a 20 limit, which is different), the limit is signed at the entrance, just not inside the limit. 30 repeaters exist where the street lighting doesn't exist and the limit's 30. Repeaters exist where the limit is higher than 30 and street lighting does exist, other than on motorways (where the default limit is 70, even if single carriageway) and in 20 zones (which have to be physically impossible to do more than 20mph).
The Highway Code says "* The 30 mph limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise."
I should point out that street lighting doesn't affect the speed limit, it just affects the signage of the speed limit (NSL has repeaters with street lights, 30mph doesn't). The specific distance between lights is to stop the odd light every half mile or whatever confusing people as to whether the area is 'built up' or not.
Quotecontinental European unsigned speed limits are much more well-defined - the various road classifications and "built up area" signs are consistent, and the speeds assigned to them are announced at international borders.
But at the same time, they are just as unsigned once in them. If you've seen a 30 sign (on both sides of the carriageway), and not seen another speed limit sign, the limit is 30mph.
In France, etc you see a 'welcome to town x' to tell you that the limit is 50km/h, then you don't see anything while in the limit, then you see the town sign with the red line through it and that's the end of the limit.
In the UK, you see a 30 sign to tell you that the limit is 30mph, then you don't see anything while in the limit, then you see another speed limit sign and that's the end of the limit.
It's identical, though more intuitively descriptive.
QuoteIn France, etc you see a 'welcome to town x' to tell you that the limit is 50km/h, then you don't see anything while in the limit, then you see the town sign with the red line through it and that's the end of the limit.
In the UK, you see a 30 sign to tell you that the limit is 30mph, then you don't see anything while in the limit, then you see another speed limit sign and that's the end of the limit.
It's identical, though more intuitively descriptive.
In some European nations, you will sometimes see a sign like this (from the Web site of the Finnish Transport Agency (http://portal.liikennevirasto.fi/sivu/www/e/)):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fportal.liikennevirasto.fi%2Fsivu%2Fwww%2Ff%2Fliikenneverkko%2Fliikennemerkit_turvalaitteet%2Fimages%2F363.gif&hash=86334ae15c2b1eaf52ba26a7dd5ac4ea29941bf2)
It means that you are entering an "area" where the speed limit is 40 k/h, until a sign like this is passed:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fportal.liikennevirasto.fi%2Fsivu%2Fwww%2Ff%2Fliikenneverkko%2Fliikennemerkit_turvalaitteet%2Fimages%2F364.gif&hash=c4b7a8573ef40196216e202562e12deb0326e3b7)
I don't think I have seen anything like that in my (
limited, and
not driving) travels in the UK.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 09, 2012, 04:31:47 PM
....
I don't think I have seen anything like that in my (limited, and not driving) travels in the UK.
I have driven in the UK but do not recall signs like those. I recall the round sign with the diagonal black bar meaning the national speed limit applies.
This page that's linked on the Highway Code's website suggests they have a sign similar in concept to the second one you posted (http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070642.pdf)–it shows the new speed limit with a smaller legend at the bottom indicating the end of the reduced speed limit zone. Nice idea, although in theory who cares what the limit was in the area you just left if you're no longer subject to that limit?
Quote from: SidS1045 on July 09, 2012, 03:54:09 PM
It's actually quite rare these days that there isn't a posted limit in most areas of Massachusetts, including "thickly settled" districts. I recalled it only because it was drilled into us in driver-ed way back when, in a time when there were fewer posted speed limits and you really had to know the prima facie limits to stay out of trouble. I think it was also on my learner's permit test.
indeed, to me the regions of unposted speed limits in MA are more a novelty than anything else. isn't the state's default speed limit still 40mph? I recall finding a 1960s "END SPEED ZONE" with no corresponding speed limit sign in 2006 on some obscure town road out near Brimfield. I believe I had been going about 25 because it was poor pavement and visibility, and I stayed at 25. It was probably many years since that road could safely be navigated at 40mph, if ever.
given the age in your profile, you indeed must have had a very different driver's ed experience from me. I got my license in 1997 and don't remember much of the details, other than that there was only one thing I did during the driving part of the exam which could in any way decide if I was a good driver or not: pull over safely for an ambulance. the rest was all legalities and the ability to parallel park.
what is the difference between a "zone" and a "limit" in the UK?
the way the original description was presented, it made it sound like there was no "30" sign and one was supposed to know, solely from the presence of light posts, that the speed limit has changed.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 01:18:18 PM
and no, there is absolutely no way in Hell I would know that the street lighting in Britain influenced the speed limit. is there a sign to this effect at the borders?
Unless the foreign drivers are coming in via Ireland, I don't think signs "at the borders" would be very effective.
Quote from: vtk on July 09, 2012, 05:14:52 PM
Unless the foreign drivers are coming in via Ireland, I don't think signs "at the borders" would be very effective.
hah, good point. at ports of entry. I recall seeing a standard German national speed limit summary sign at one of the exits of Frankfurt airport.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 09, 2012, 04:39:33 PMI have driven in the UK but do not recall signs like those. I recall the round sign with the diagonal black bar meaning the national speed limit applies.
That is the normal treatment--I have only ever seen cancel bars on a specific speed limit (as distinct from the standard NSL sign) used in the UK for the ends of twenty zones.
QuoteThis page that's linked on the Highway Code's website suggests they have a sign similar in concept to the second one you posted (http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070642.pdf)–it shows the new speed limit with a smaller legend at the bottom indicating the end of the reduced speed limit zone. Nice idea, although in theory who cares what the limit was in the area you just left if you're no longer subject to that limit?
That is a special sign intended for use only at the exits to twenty zones. (I haven't checked, but I am reasonably certain TSRGD does not allow the number within the cancelled roundel to be varied to anything
but 20.)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 04:52:18 PM
what is the difference between a "zone" and a "limit" in the UK?
In practice, not much--speed limits of whatever kind generally get zone-based signing: in other words, you are told the speed limit as you enter the zone, and then you get no repeaters within the zone unless special circumstances apply, e.g. a speed limit other than 30 MPH on an all-purpose road within a street-lit area.
This is a completely different approach from the US, where it is routine to transition to a higher or lower limit (e.g., when turning from a residential subdivision street to an arterial) and then be left guessing as to what limit applies until you pass a speed limit sign after the next major intersection. The British system is a hairsplitter's wet dream but is far less ambiguous.
Quotethe way the original description was presented, it made it sound like there was no "30" sign and one was supposed to know, solely from the presence of light posts, that the speed limit has changed.
No--you do get a 30 MPH roundel at all entries to an area where the speed limit is 30 by virtue of streetlighting with lamp columns no further than 200 yards apart. Unlike many continental European countries (Italy, e.g.), the UK does not require you to guess the speed limit as you enter a built-up area, or try to remember it from among several listed on a basic speed law sign as you enter the country. (There is no basic speed law sign in Britain as such, though there are nonprescribed signs saying "Drive on left" in multiple languages at landside exits from ferry ports.)
As you enter a village or other area where a 30 limit applies, the 30 roundel will typically appear on the same signpost as the village name sign. It may be on its own sign panel, or it may be combined with the village name sign on an aircraft-gray backing board. The two forms of installation are legally equivalent (at least in Great Britain--I think TSRGD requires that the backing board be rectangular in format, while in Northern Ireland the Traffic Signs Regulations--which are completely different from TSRGD since NI has its own road traffic law--allow the backing board to be scalloped around a 30 roundel mounted above the village name sign). Then, as English Si says, you are not supposed to see any 30 repeaters within the village, and as you leave the village, you will see just a NSL sign (no village name sign with a cancel bar). This contrasts with the situation in France, Spain, Italy, and other continental European countries, where you do not get a 50 km/h roundel entering the village or a NSL sign leaving the village--instead you get just the village name sign on entry and the cancelled version of same on exit.
A "repeater" is a scaled-down version of the regular speed limit sign. It is meant to be used only for roads which have unusual speed limits, e.g. urban dual carriageways (not motorways) with street lighting and 40 limits. A repeater is
not the speed limit roundel patched onto an informatory sign, such as the sign advising of the presence of speed cameras (blue background, white border, showing the speed camera graphic above a 30 roundel).
Confused enough yet?
Quote from: mgk920 on July 09, 2012, 01:47:50 PM
The one that had me scratching my head the first time that I saw it were the 'DON'T BLOCK THE BOX' signs in NYC.
Ah yes, that of course being a reference to anti-gridlock laws. Now, gridlocking is already illegal not only in NYC, but throughout the country. It's just that NYC paints handy hachures in the intersection; that's the "box" you may not block. So those signs are reminding you of the reminder to the law, and only indirectly of the law itself.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 09, 2012, 05:23:20 PM
.... (There is no basic speed law sign in Britain as such, though there are nonprescribed signs saying "Drive on left" in multiple languages at landside exits from ferry ports.)
....
I also recall seeing a sign like that on the road that serves the on-airport car hire locations at the airport in Edinburgh. Seems logical enough, at least at the major airports, although frankly the first time I got behind the wheel of a rented VW Passat at the Avis location in Edinburgh I found that having the bulk of the car to my left (instead of my right) and shifting with my left hand were themselves more than enough of a reminder to drive on the other side. Obviously I understand why the ferry ports, and any other place where there might be more left-drive vehicles, would be a different scenario.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 04:48:47 PM
isn't the state's default speed limit still 40mph?
20mph in a school zone, 30 in a thickly settled area, 40 on a non-divided highway outside a thickly settled area and 50 on a divided highway outside a thickly settled area. The "basic" speed law in MA is still "reasonable and proper."
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 04:48:47 PMgiven the age in your profile, you indeed must have had a very different driver's ed experience from me. I got my license in 1997 and don't remember much of the details, other than that there was only one thing I did during the driving part of the exam which could in any way decide if I was a good driver or not: pull over safely for an ambulance. the rest was all legalities and the ability to parallel park.
I got my first license exactly 30 years before you did, but my wife didn't get hers until 1995 (born in NYC, so she never felt the need to learn until we moved to the Boston suburbs) and I coached her on both the written and driving tests, so I had to brush up on what had changed since I got my license. The road tests are still administered by State Police officers (I think we're the only state remaining where this is true) and there must be a "sponsor" in the vehicle (someone over 21 with at least one year of driving experience) who sits directly behind the testee and otherwise keeps his/her mouth shut. My wife was not asked to parallel-park, and when I got my license the only required parking manuever was angle-parking. I had to learn parallel parking the hard way.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 09, 2012, 05:49:45 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on July 09, 2012, 05:23:20 PM.... (There is no basic speed law sign in Britain as such, though there are nonprescribed signs saying "Drive on left" in multiple languages at landside exits from ferry ports.)
....
I also recall seeing a sign like that on the road that serves the on-airport car hire locations at the airport in Edinburgh. Seems logical enough, at least at the major airports, although frankly the first time I got behind the wheel of a rented VW Passat at the Avis location in Edinburgh I found that having the bulk of the car to my left (instead of my right) and shifting with my left hand were themselves more than enough of a reminder to drive on the other side. Obviously I understand why the ferry ports, and any other place where there might be more left-drive vehicles, would be a different scenario.
It doesn't surprise me that you saw one of these signs leaving Edinburgh Airport. Although TSRGD is an all-GB statutory instrument, the central road authorities in England, Wales, and Scotland all have the legal ability to issue their own authorizations for nonprescribed signs (i.e., signs which are not diagrammed in TSRGD and are not a "permitted variant" of a sign so diagrammed, and thus are given legal force by a general provision which allows the minister to approve specific signs on a case-by-case basis).
Scotland issues blanket authorizations for certain types of signs, such as countdown markers for reduced speed limits, and I think it has one for "Keep left" signs at airport exits. I know it has a specific authorization for Glasgow Airport. I am not aware that "Keep left" signs are used at any airports in England--I have seen them only at ferry ports such as Dover.
I know that Italy posts basic speed law signs at airport exits but this practice is far from universal in Europe. I don't remember seeing such signs at airports in Spain, Switzerland, or France (though they are diagrammed as standard signs in the traffic signing regulations in the first two countries, and possibly the third).
Quote from: SidS1045 on July 10, 2012, 10:37:52 AMI had to learn parallel parking the hard way.
in a box truck in downtown Boston?
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 10, 2012, 12:37:57 PMI am not aware that "Keep left" signs are used at any airports in England--I have seen them only at ferry ports such as Dover.
And all over Kent. IIRC, there are a few in ferry terminals and container ports, like Southampton and Portsmouth. There are also signs leaving Dover telling you what the National speed limit is and giving you a conversion to km/h. The border between Ireland and Northern Ireland simply have "Speed limits in <units>" under the border-marking speed limit sign.
[/quote]
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 09, 2012, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 09, 2012, 04:52:18 PM
what is the difference between a "zone" and a "limit" in the UK?
In practice, not much--speed limits of whatever kind generally get zone-based signing: in other words, you are told the speed limit as you enter the zone, and then you get no repeaters within the zone unless special circumstances apply, e.g. a speed limit other than 30 MPH on an all-purpose road within a street-lit area.
with the exception of 20 zones. And you get repeaters on speed limits other than national speed limit on an all-purpose road outside a street-lit area.
IIRC, the difference between zones and limits is fairly recent - I think when 20 zones came into play. A 20 limit is just like any non-30 limit in a built up area - signed with repeaters. A 20 zone is not, but there has to be physical barriers (humps, chicanes) that stop people from doing more than 20mph. I was using zone as 'no repeaters' and limit as 'repeaters' off the back of this.
QuoteThe British system is a hairsplitter's wet dream but is far less ambiguous.
yes - certainly there have been cases of people caught speeding in a 30 limit trying to see whether the lampposts are 201ft apart to get off on a technicality!
QuoteThen, as English Si says, you are not supposed to see any 30 repeaters within the village, and as you leave the village, you will see just a NSL sign (no village name sign with a cancel bar).
You might see them if there's areas without street lighting, eg here (http://goo.gl/maps/St4D)
QuoteA repeater is not the speed limit roundel patched onto an informatory sign, such as the sign advising of the presence of speed cameras (blue background, white border, showing the speed camera graphic above a 30 roundel).
Confused enough yet?
You forgot the signs that get put up on roads 'recently' lowered to 30 that look like this (http://goo.gl/maps/mw4l) and say "it's 30 for a reason". In this case, the reason was that a councillor got it lowered - there was perhaps a consistency that all roads inside the bypass were 30, but I don't see what was wrong with the old limit of 40 and there were no accident stats to back it up.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 10, 2012, 12:43:58 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on July 10, 2012, 10:37:52 AMI had to learn parallel parking the hard way.
in a box truck in downtown Boston?
You're not that far off. In my dad's 1953 Oldsmobile 98...WITHOUT power steering.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 02, 2012, 11:26:50 PMif a railroad crossing is paved over, is it still a railroad crossing?
I've seen many instances where the railroad crossing signals remain in place for many years, because they are owned by the railroad. They often take their sweet time removing them.
Like this one, on Lancaster Drive S.E. in Salem, Oregon (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Salem,+Oregon&hl=en&ll=44.931705,-122.983241&spn=0.010254,0.022724&sll=45.415187,-122.753077&sspn=0.005084,0.011362&hnear=Salem,+Marion,+Oregon&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=44.931705,-122.983241&panoid=OeAdfHEEwhkedmMqGYLySQ&cbp=12,290.91,,0,7.48).
Railroad's been gone for 10, 15 years now. Notice the railroad right-of-way has been taken over. But the signal hardware is still there.
Or...it's too inconvenient to shut down a road to remove the railroad hardware, so the track outside of the crossing will be removed but the crossing itself lingers around, like this one on N.E. Evergreen Parkway in Hillsboro, Oregon (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hillsboro,+OR&hl=en&ll=45.546409,-122.899482&spn=0.010083,0.022724&sll=44.931705,-122.983241&sspn=0.010254,0.022724&hnear=Hillsboro,+Washington,+Oregon&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=45.546412,-122.899612&panoid=xpJJdyR_1Mt9R9-5hirSjQ&cbp=12,10.28,,0,9.94), where the railroad has been abandoned since the mid-1990s.
When you get into industrial spurs (tracks that lead to a single business or group of businesses) there are dozens of such examples. Some of these tracks are so seldom used that I've seen some of them marked as "exempt" even though they are still active tracks - meaning when the trains come through, the train has to be flagged by a crew member and actually yield to road traffic until road traffic stops. There is one such crossing in Vancouver on S.E. Columbia Way; unfortunately the Google Maps car hasn't driven down that road...
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2012, 05:51:58 AMYeah, the HC signs were puzzling the first time I saw them as well.
On U.S. 26 the "HM" (with the red circle/cross) signs confused quite a few people. However, there are explanatory signs as well that also clearly state that vehicles carrying hazardous materials must not get onto U.S. 26 (from I-405 or downtown Portland), or must use Oregon 217 (from Beaverton).
However, there are no "HM" (with a green circle) sign designating the permitted route. You're on your own to figure out the official permitted route is I-5 to Oregon 99W to Oregon 217 (or I-5 direct to 217) to U.S. 26. Or Cornelius Pass Road, or Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 03, 2012, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2012, 07:33:57 AM
Quote from: vtk on July 03, 2012, 12:41:44 AM
Are there any signs still standing that say "BURN LIGHTS WITH WIPERS"?
North Carolina uses a version of that: "State Law [underscore separator] Burn Headlights When Using Wipers." The signs aren't particularly big nor prominent, either. "Invisible cars" in the rain or snow are a pet peeve of mine and I wish these signs would be made very noticeable.
The Tar Heel State also posts "Motorcycles Burn Headlights" at many (most?) (all?) highways entering the state.
Last night, I saw Missouri's version: "Lights on when wipers required."
Quote from: sp_redelectric on July 12, 2012, 01:08:30 AM
Some of these tracks are so seldom used that I've seen some of them marked as "exempt" even though they are still active tracks - meaning when the trains come through, the train has to be flagged by a crew member and actually yield to road traffic until road traffic stops.
there is a railyard in Florida on either current or former FL-67 where something comparable to this happened to me. the lights were flashing, the gates were down...
a switch engine was stopped just to the side of the road, and a crewman was waving cars through. it seems to me that the switch engine tripped the lights automatically, but since it was going back and forth so many times, it made sense for someone to manually wave cars through when it was safe.
Quote from: apeman33 on July 12, 2012, 03:31:28 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 03, 2012, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2012, 07:33:57 AM
Quote from: vtk on July 03, 2012, 12:41:44 AM
Are there any signs still standing that say "BURN LIGHTS WITH WIPERS"?
North Carolina uses a version of that: "State Law [underscore separator] Burn Headlights When Using Wipers." The signs aren't particularly big nor prominent, either. "Invisible cars" in the rain or snow are a pet peeve of mine and I wish these signs would be made very noticeable.
The Tar Heel State also posts "Motorcycles Burn Headlights" at many (most?) (all?) highways entering the state.
Last night, I saw Missouri's version: "Lights on when wipers required."
This one always presents me with a puzzle. Am I required to use my wipers when it's raining? If not, then wipers are never required, ergo I'm not required to turn on my lights when it's raining. I only use my wipers when it's raining quite hard; when it's lighter rain, I find the wiper blades to be more distracting than the raindrops.
It would be nice if the idiots around here would turn their lights on when it rains. I've seen it when it was very dark and gloomy and there were plenty of morons with their lights off. I flash my lights at them but it does no good. They're probably too busy texting.
Quote from: bugo on July 12, 2012, 02:57:08 PM
It would be nice if the idiots around here would turn their lights on when it rains. I've seen it when it was very dark and gloomy and there were plenty of morons with their lights off. I flash my lights at them but it does no good. They're probably too busy texting.
no, they think that if you flash your lights, you are personally offending them and disturbing their tranquility. so they just dig in and stay in the dark.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 12, 2012, 11:15:58 AM
a switch engine was stopped just to the side of the road, and a crewman was waving cars through. it seems to me that the switch engine tripped the lights automatically, but since it was going back and forth so many times, it made sense for someone to manually wave cars through when it was safe.
Sometimes they have it set up to avoid this problem.
Quote from: UP North Little Rock Area employee timetable, 2003Sikeston - US Highway 61: A rotating white light is located in the southwest quadrant of the crossing which will light, and rotate, after all signals governing vehicular traffic are displaying red aspect.
Trains and engines must approach Highway 61 crossing prepared to stop until rotating white light is seen to be operating. If after waiting two minutes the rotating white light does not operate, before proceeding, a crew member must be on the ground to warn highway traffic until crossing is occupied.
A push button box is located 352 feet west of the crossing. Before switching on the main track between the push button and within 50 feet of the crossing, a member of crew must operate the push button. This will time out the rotating white light at the crossing for 16 minutes and allow the highway traffic to move normally.
If the switching requires more than 16 minutes, the push button must be operated again. If the switching is completed prior to the expiration of the 16 minutes, the train must then stop within 50 feet of the crossing, and wait until such time as the rotating white light begins operating before occupying the crossing.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 12, 2012, 03:35:05 PM
Quote from: bugo on July 12, 2012, 02:57:08 PM
It would be nice if the idiots around here would turn their lights on when it rains. I've seen it when it was very dark and gloomy and there were plenty of morons with their lights off. I flash my lights at them but it does no good. They're probably too busy texting.
no, they think that if you flash your lights, you are personally offending them and disturbing their tranquility. so they just dig in and stay in the dark.
I think most of those people have no idea of the notion of headlights being as much for other drivers to see you as they are for you to be able to see. "I can see fine, why do I need headlights?" I see more and more cars being driven at night, like after 10 PM, with no lights on at all (meaning not even DRLs), and if you flash your lights at those people they seem oblivious. I actually called the cops once, but I've given up on that sort of thing because it's too common now.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 12, 2012, 05:48:48 PMI see more and more cars being driven at night, like after 10 PM, with no lights on at all
please tell me this is at least in an urban environment. I could probably get away with it if I were suddenly overcome by a cloud of dumbass gas.
rurally, though, there's just no way in Hell.
maybe under a full moon. maybe.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 12, 2012, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 12, 2012, 03:35:05 PM
Quote from: bugo on July 12, 2012, 02:57:08 PM
It would be nice if the idiots around here would turn their lights on when it rains. I've seen it when it was very dark and gloomy and there were plenty of morons with their lights off. I flash my lights at them but it does no good. They're probably too busy texting.
no, they think that if you flash your lights, you are personally offending them and disturbing their tranquility. so they just dig in and stay in the dark.
* * * and if you flash your lights at those people they seem oblivious. * * *
I have better luck when I turn my lights completely off, then back on, then on high beams, then completely off again, then back on, then on high beams, and then back to normal. It takes all of about four seconds, and people are more likely to (a) notice you and (b) get the point.
Quote from: NE2 on July 12, 2012, 04:37:22 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 12, 2012, 11:15:58 AM
a switch engine was stopped just to the side of the road, and a crewman was waving cars through. it seems to me that the switch engine tripped the lights automatically, but since it was going back and forth so many times, it made sense for someone to manually wave cars through when it was safe.
Sometimes they have it set up to avoid this problem.
Quote from: UP North Little Rock Area employee timetable, 2003Sikeston - US Highway 61: A rotating white light is located in the southwest quadrant of the crossing which will light, and rotate, after all signals governing vehicular traffic are displaying red aspect.
Trains and engines must approach Highway 61 crossing prepared to stop until rotating white light is seen to be operating. If after waiting two minutes the rotating white light does not operate, before proceeding, a crew member must be on the ground to warn highway traffic until crossing is occupied.
A push button box is located 352 feet west of the crossing. Before switching on the main track between the push button and within 50 feet of the crossing, a member of crew must operate the push button. This will time out the rotating white light at the crossing for 16 minutes and allow the highway traffic to move normally.
If the switching requires more than 16 minutes, the push button must be operated again. If the switching is completed prior to the expiration of the 16 minutes, the train must then stop within 50 feet of the crossing, and wait until such time as the rotating white light begins operating before occupying the crossing.
Situations like this are more common than you'd think, and I see some of them regularly up here in Mass.
The Topsfield Rd grade crossing adjacent to the commuter rail station in Ipswich is operated for outbound trains by either a push button (located at the top of a pole that curves toward the track so it's less than a foot away from the window of the locomotive on a stopped train) or dialing a specific frequency on the radio (which is really helpful for me because the overpass I'm working on is less than a mile up the tracks so when we hear that tone on the radio we know a train's coming. Inbound trains have the traditional automated approach.
In Cambridge, MA the rail line connecting Boston's north and south side commuter rail lines (plus Amtrak's Downeaster to the rest of the Amtrak system), which also carries the occasional night CSX freight, has crossings that aren't exempt, but lack gates or lights, and trains must yield to cars. This works because when CSX switches its few customers on the line, it does so in the middle of the night so can cross in a gap between traffic with flaggers, and Amtrak and the MBTA rarely use the line, only to transfer equipment that is either new or needing to go to the engine terminal for maintenance/repairs in non-revenue moves.
Here's an Amtrak loco crossing Main St on it courtesy of Wikipedia.
Quote from: sp_redelectric on July 12, 2012, 01:08:30 AM
Some of these tracks are so seldom used that I've seen some of them marked as "exempt" even though they are still active tracks - meaning when the trains come through, the train has to be flagged by a crew member and actually yield to road traffic until road traffic stops. There is one such crossing in Vancouver on S.E. Columbia Way; unfortunately the Google Maps car hasn't driven down that road...
There is a similar crossing in White Plains, Charles County, Md. where U.S. 301 crosses an abandoned spur that was built to serve Naval Support Facility Indian Head (http://www.cnic.navy.mil/IndianHead/About/index.htm) (Google Street View here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=crain+highway+and+theodore+green+blvd.,+white+plains,+md&hl=en&ll=38.588464,-76.944273&spn=0.009074,0.013669&sll=38.588078,-76.946204&sspn=0.009074,0.013669&t=h&gl=us&hnear=Crain+Hwy+%26+Theodore+Green+Blvd,+6,+Waldorf,+Charles,+Maryland+20695&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.588634,-76.944096&panoid=sihZXFS5T3U01mnZhyHSYA&cbp=12,207.84,,0,15.49)), and there used to be signs saying "exempt," but I don't know if they are still there (and it's not obvious from Street View).
there's a connection between North Station and South Station? dang, I never knew that, actually.
Steve's Storrow Drive (http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ma/storrow/) page has a good pic of the overpass of that line crossing Storrow, with trees growing on the unused half of the bridge.
It would be nice to be able to connect between the northern and southern lines of the commuter rail and Amtrak without a ride on the subway or taxi, but doubtful that will ever actually happen.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 13, 2012, 10:50:40 AM
there's a connection between North Station and South Station? dang, I never knew that, actually.
Well... there's a single rail link. At one point it was considered for I-695. It would make more sense to walk than to try to go between the stations via any routing incorporating this link.
Quote from: PurdueBill on July 13, 2012, 05:26:22 PM
Steve's Storrow Drive (http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ma/storrow/) page has a good pic of the overpass of that line crossing Storrow, with trees growing on the unused half of the bridge.
It would be nice to be able to connect between the northern and southern lines of the commuter rail and Amtrak without a ride on the subway or taxi, but doubtful that will ever actually happen.
It's proposed to build tunnels connecting the two via new lower-level north and south stations, and a 200ft deep central station, with most trains being through-routed. Parts of these tunnels were included in the big dig, but to complete the connection would still cost billions of dollars, and require the MBTA to electrify the commuter rail fleet.
Quote from: Steve on July 13, 2012, 06:22:14 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 13, 2012, 10:50:40 AM
there's a connection between North Station and South Station? dang, I never knew that, actually.
Well... there's a single rail link. At one point it was considered for I-695. It would make more sense to walk than to try to go between the stations via any routing incorporating this link.
Yeah, emphasis on the fact that I said non-revenue movements. The track's speed is like 5 mph, so no revenue train could realistically use this connection, since they would have to take the Worcester line all the way out to Allston, then use the aforementioned link through Cambridge, and back across the Charles to North Station - a movement that would easily take 30 minutes.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 13, 2012, 08:21:04 PM
Parts of these tunnels were included in the big dig,
If I'm not mistaken, all they did in the Big Dig was to preserve the corridor.
Quote from: NE2 on July 13, 2012, 08:32:30 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 13, 2012, 08:21:04 PM
Parts of these tunnels were included in the big dig,
If I'm not mistaken, all they did in the Big Dig was to preserve the corridor.
I may be mistaken, but I believe that at least part of the tunnels included space for a rail line (i.e. tunnel infrastructure exists, but unfinished with no track or anything).
You may be right - I'm finding hearsay message board posts that say the walls of the Dig go below the highway to where the North-South Rail Link would go.
Quote from: NE2 on July 13, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
You may be right - I'm finding hearsay message board posts that say the walls of the Dig go below the highway to where the North-South Rail Link would go.
I was offered a tour of the Central Artery sometime in the next few weeks by a contact of mine in MassDOT Highway Operations, so when I do that I'll try and see if he knows anything about the rail link.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FTXDOT_R20-3.svg%2F80px-TXDOT_R20-3.svg.png&hash=ac5b77d7cf4e58674592e7aa4a88189fc6ea3b7d)
Texas has these; maybe other states do too.
If it's just a warning, then exactly what am I supposed to obey?
For example, if I see this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/MUTCD_W8-1.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-1.svg.png), what am I required to bump?
Or, if I see this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/MUTCD_W11-2.svg/200px-MUTCD_W11-2.svg.png), am I required to get out and start walking along the road?
How about this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/MUTCD_W8-2.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-2.svg.png)? Should I keep tobacco in my car just in case?
And how on earth am I supposed to obey this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/MUTCD_W8-8.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-8.svg.png)?
Enquiring minds want to know.....
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2012, 02:26:32 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FTXDOT_R20-3.svg%2F80px-TXDOT_R20-3.svg.png&hash=ac5b77d7cf4e58674592e7aa4a88189fc6ea3b7d)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg96%2Fnatsmith1987scotland%2Ftexassign.jpg&hash=b282aa85ce841c3d1e767b8771f5d0e788cbe83a)
Older wording?
Quote from: NE2 on October 27, 2012, 02:33:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2012, 02:26:32 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FTXDOT_R20-3.svg%2F80px-TXDOT_R20-3.svg.png&hash=ac5b77d7cf4e58674592e7aa4a88189fc6ea3b7d)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg96%2Fnatsmith1987scotland%2Ftexassign.jpg&hash=b282aa85ce841c3d1e767b8771f5d0e788cbe83a)
Older wording?
Ah. Well. Due to the multiple meanings of 'observe', I could simply park and watch the sign for a while.
Are they trying to make those advisory speed plaques (such as on curves) legally enforceable?
These are only posted in advance of construction zones. Having crossed Texas twice in the past two weeks I've become very familiar with them. But, I had exactly the same question about obeying or observing a warning sign versus a regulatory sign.
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2012, 02:38:37 PM
Quote from: NE2 on October 27, 2012, 02:33:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2012, 02:26:32 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FTXDOT_R20-3.svg%2F80px-TXDOT_R20-3.svg.png&hash=ac5b77d7cf4e58674592e7aa4a88189fc6ea3b7d)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg96%2Fnatsmith1987scotland%2Ftexassign.jpg&hash=b282aa85ce841c3d1e767b8771f5d0e788cbe83a)
Older wording?
Ah. Well. Due to the multiple meanings of 'observe', I could simply park and watch the sign for a while.
:eyebrow: :wow:
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2012, 02:26:32 PM
And how on earth am I supposed to obey this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/MUTCD_W8-8.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-8.svg.png)?
You must get out and chip-seal the road at once.
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2012, 02:26:32 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FTXDOT_R20-3.svg%2F80px-TXDOT_R20-3.svg.png&hash=ac5b77d7cf4e58674592e7aa4a88189fc6ea3b7d)
Texas has these; maybe other states do too.
If it's just a warning, then exactly what am I supposed to obey?
For example, if I see this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/MUTCD_W8-1.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-1.svg.png), what am I required to bump?
Or, if I see this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/MUTCD_W11-2.svg/200px-MUTCD_W11-2.svg.png), am I required to get out and start walking along the road?
How about this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/MUTCD_W8-2.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-2.svg.png)? Should I keep tobacco in my car just in case?
And how on earth am I supposed to obey this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/MUTCD_W8-8.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-8.svg.png)?
Enquiring minds want to know.....
I generally see these posted near construction zones
I always assumed it was referring to the temporary construction zone speed limits
I never have been 100% sure exactly what it's supposed to mean
Such a sign really shouldn't exist. Warning signs are advisory in nature, and nothing about them is meant to be "obeyed"...that's what regulatory signs are for.
Don't apply it in Delaware or you will get a Slumdog Millionaire situation: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Delaware_W21-15-DE.svg&page=1 :cool:
How's this for cryptic (to an out of towner): http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milwaukee,+wi&hl=en&ll=43.04319,-88.03421&spn=0.000562,0.000603&sll=41.701756,-72.700138&sspn=0.103942,0.154324&t=h&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin&z=21&layer=c&cbll=43.04319,-88.03421&panoid=RGlnDyJrCGm2pEg_9fNi8g&cbp=12,331.61,,0,0.3 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milwaukee,+wi&hl=en&ll=43.04319,-88.03421&spn=0.000562,0.000603&sll=41.701756,-72.700138&sspn=0.103942,0.154324&t=h&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin&z=21&layer=c&cbll=43.04319,-88.03421&panoid=RGlnDyJrCGm2pEg_9fNi8g&cbp=12,331.61,,0,0.3)
"Watertown Plk Rd"? Watertown Plick Road? Plack? Plake? It's Plank. Obviously. :rolleyes:
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2012, 02:26:32 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FTXDOT_R20-3.svg%2F80px-TXDOT_R20-3.svg.png&hash=ac5b77d7cf4e58674592e7aa4a88189fc6ea3b7d)
Texas has these; maybe other states do too.
If it's just a warning, then exactly what am I supposed to obey?
For example, if I see this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/MUTCD_W8-1.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-1.svg.png), what am I required to bump?
Or, if I see this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/MUTCD_W11-2.svg/200px-MUTCD_W11-2.svg.png), am I required to get out and start walking along the road?
How about this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/MUTCD_W8-2.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-2.svg.png)? Should I keep tobacco in my car just in case?
And how on earth am I supposed to obey this warning sign (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/MUTCD_W8-8.svg/200px-MUTCD_W8-8.svg.png)?
Enquiring minds want to know.....
Warning signs do not require a certain action, only alert the motorists to the special condition ahead. It's up to the driver to decide how to react to the condition.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on October 31, 2012, 10:20:25 AM
How's this for cryptic (to an out of towner): http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milwaukee,+wi&hl=en&ll=43.04319,-88.03421&spn=0.000562,0.000603&sll=41.701756,-72.700138&sspn=0.103942,0.154324&t=h&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin&z=21&layer=c&cbll=43.04319,-88.03421&panoid=RGlnDyJrCGm2pEg_9fNi8g&cbp=12,331.61,,0,0.3 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milwaukee,+wi&hl=en&ll=43.04319,-88.03421&spn=0.000562,0.000603&sll=41.701756,-72.700138&sspn=0.103942,0.154324&t=h&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin&z=21&layer=c&cbll=43.04319,-88.03421&panoid=RGlnDyJrCGm2pEg_9fNi8g&cbp=12,331.61,,0,0.3)
"Watertown Plk Rd"? Watertown Plick Road? Plack? Plake? It's Plank. Obviously. :rolleyes:
The one that had me scratching my head most of the way back home was during a roadtrip out east a few years back - "Del Water Gap" on westbound I-80 in New Jersey. "Pennsylvania" would be so much clearer and better, IMHO.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on October 31, 2012, 10:57:43 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on October 31, 2012, 10:20:25 AM
How's this for cryptic (to an out of towner): http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milwaukee,+wi&hl=en&ll=43.04319,-88.03421&spn=0.000562,0.000603&sll=41.701756,-72.700138&sspn=0.103942,0.154324&t=h&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin&z=21&layer=c&cbll=43.04319,-88.03421&panoid=RGlnDyJrCGm2pEg_9fNi8g&cbp=12,331.61,,0,0.3 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milwaukee,+wi&hl=en&ll=43.04319,-88.03421&spn=0.000562,0.000603&sll=41.701756,-72.700138&sspn=0.103942,0.154324&t=h&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin&z=21&layer=c&cbll=43.04319,-88.03421&panoid=RGlnDyJrCGm2pEg_9fNi8g&cbp=12,331.61,,0,0.3)
"Watertown Plk Rd"? Watertown Plick Road? Plack? Plake? It's Plank. Obviously. :rolleyes:
The one that had me scratching my head most of the way back home was during a roadtrip out east a few years back - "Del Water Gap" on westbound I-80 in New Jersey. "Pennsylvania" would be so much clearer and better, IMHO.
Mike
Delaware Water Gap is named for it's position at a "gap" where the Delaware River passes through a mountain range. The Delaware River forms the western boundary of New Jersey, so renaming it for PA would make about as much sense as renaming the lake east of Wisconsin as Lake Illinois. :sombrero:
Get out your Rand McNally and turn to the page that shows the whole lower 48 states. Delaware Water Gap is not a place that appears on it. I don't think it's even labelled as such on the PA or NJ pages. Most folks from the Midwest don't know what this thing is. It may be an important regional landmark for people in the Northeast, but it has very poor recognition elsewhere. Guide signs exist to help non-locals, especially destination messages. "Del Water Gap" is insufficient.
Quote from: vtk on October 31, 2012, 01:00:32 PM
Get out your Rand McNally and turn to the page that shows the whole lower 48 states. Delaware Water Gap is not a place that appears on it. I don't think it's even labelled as such on the PA or NJ pages. Most folks from the Midwest don't know what this thing is. It may be an important regional landmark for people in the Northeast, but it has very poor recognition elsewhere. Guide signs exist to help non-locals, especially destination messages. "Del Water Gap" is insufficient.
It is most certainly there, basically being the closest community to the river (and border): http://maps.google.com/?ll=40.970437,-75.148029&spn=0.105634,0.154324&t=h&z=13 (http://maps.google.com/?ll=40.970437,-75.148029&spn=0.105634,0.154324&t=h&z=13)
From what I can tell, most northeasterners know where it is. That said, Stroudsburg would probably be a better destination to cite. BTW: Rand McNally ain't what it used to be..... :)
It still makes more sense than "Watertown Plk Rd"!
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on October 31, 2012, 10:20:25 AM
How's this for cryptic (to an out of towner): http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milwaukee,+wi&hl=en&ll=43.04319,-88.03421&spn=0.000562,0.000603&sll=41.701756,-72.700138&sspn=0.103942,0.154324&t=h&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin&z=21&layer=c&cbll=43.04319,-88.03421&panoid=RGlnDyJrCGm2pEg_9fNi8g&cbp=12,331.61,,0,0.3 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milwaukee,+wi&hl=en&ll=43.04319,-88.03421&spn=0.000562,0.000603&sll=41.701756,-72.700138&sspn=0.103942,0.154324&t=h&hnear=Milwaukee,+Wisconsin&z=21&layer=c&cbll=43.04319,-88.03421&panoid=RGlnDyJrCGm2pEg_9fNi8g&cbp=12,331.61,,0,0.3)
"Watertown Plk Rd"? Watertown Plick Road? Plack? Plake? It's Plank. Obviously. :rolleyes:
When I was living in Boston, I remember trying to find my way to a restaurant whose address I only knew from the White Pages (that's a telephone book, see). It was located on "Rev Bch Pkwy"...I had figured out "reverend" and "parkway", but I don't want to say out loud what I kept going to for the middle word. ;-)
(p.s., it's "Revere Beach Parkway", actually...)
On the subject of confusing abbrevations... I grew up right off East Little Back River Road (or as we locals called it, East Little Back) in Hampton, VA, and all the signs read either "E L Back River Rd" or "E L Back R Rd". I still don't quite understand what the Little refers to, since the Back River splits into a Northwest and a Southeast Branch, and I've never seen "Little Back River" on anything other than those street signs, but hey. Also, I think the East is a little bit unnecessary since it is virtually the only road in the area that uses a directional prefix, and West Little Back River Rd is a 1-block long residential street, while East Little Back River Rd is a significant arterial.
Isn't E. L. Backriver the author of Fifty Shades of Grey? :P
Milwaukee has Kinnickinnic Ave.
Since no one can actually spell that, much less pronounce it, the street is commonly called KK Ave.
Even the US post office for that area recognizes KK Ave as a valid street name.
Signs have the full name spelled out, but since so many people call it KK Ave, people from outside the area get very confused when they cant find a hwy KK in the middle of Milwaukee county.
Too bad it isn't "Kinnickinnickinnic Avenue." (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthebumperboards.com%2Fbumperboards%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ficon_ninja.gif&hash=68ba53fde496738f02b144fed0a118c838c714e2)
There is a small community called Kinniconick in Lewis County, Ky. The stream that runs through there is called Kinniconick Creek. I have also seen the place name Kinnikinick elsewhere.
Regarding abbreviations. Del Water Gap is no more out of place than Del Mem Br.
Signage along US 33/119 in West Virginia makes reference to "Bkn. Mountain Road." It wasn't until I saw a smaller sign on that road designating it as "Buckhannon Mountain Road" that I knew what it meant.
"Buckhannon Mtn. Road" would be more informative and better for travelers. "Bkn. Mountain" made me wonder if it was anything like Brokeback Mountain. :-D
To me "Bkn." would have suggested either "Broken" or "Brooklyn."
Brooklyn = Bklyn
(That was a favorite Randy Hersh abbreviation, BTW.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 12:15:16 PM
To me "Bkn." would have suggested either "Broken" or "Brooklyn."
I seem to recall that there were signs on I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel Thruway) Southbound south of the toll plaza that once read "Bkln" or "Bklyn" or maybe "Bklyn Park" at the exit for Shell Road/Frankfurst Avenue (Exit 8 today) or maybe at Md. 2 (Potee Street) (Exit 7 today).
The southern tip of Baltimore City is known as Brooklyn, and the adjoining northern part of Anne Arundel County is unincorporated Brooklyn Park.
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 01, 2012, 01:04:19 PM
Brooklyn = Bklyn
(That was a favorite Randy Hersh abbreviation, BTW.)
Usually that's the abbreviation (I've seen "B'klyn" as well), but I've seen the occasional sports-statistic tables that refer to the Brooklyn Dodgers as BKN (just as the Cubs would be CHC, the Tigers as DET, etc.). That's probably why "Brooklyn" would be one of the things I'd think of if I saw the sign in question.
Whenever I'm in Kansas City and see "Trfwy" on a guide sign, I imagine a road with grass growing on it.
Quote from: Special K on November 01, 2012, 02:35:18 PM
Whenever I'm in Kansas City and see "Trfwy" on a guide sign, I imagine a road with grass growing on it.
Turfway? That's really the only thing that I imagine that being.
Holy Wimbledon Batman! :wow:
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 01, 2012, 03:22:38 PM
Quote from: Special K on November 01, 2012, 02:35:18 PM
Whenever I'm in Kansas City and see "Trfwy" on a guide sign, I imagine a road with grass growing on it.
Turfway? That's really the only thing that I imagine that being.
Holy Wimbledon Batman! :wow:
Trafficway?
Quote from: Big John on November 01, 2012, 04:28:04 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 01, 2012, 03:22:38 PM
Quote from: Special K on November 01, 2012, 02:35:18 PM
Whenever I'm in Kansas City and see "Trfwy" on a guide sign, I imagine a road with grass growing on it.
Turfway? That's really the only thing that I imagine that being.
Holy Wimbledon Batman! :wow:
Trafficway?
Trafficway is correct. At least that's what the locals called it, while I was there last summer.
What the heck is a "Trafficway"?
A way for traffic.
Quote from: NE2 on November 01, 2012, 05:04:41 PM
A way for traffic.
So if they have multiple ones, they can call them "The Ways" and users have to avoid
Machin Shin?
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 05:03:58 PM
What the heck is a "Trafficway"?
Wow. Having had relatives in KC my whole life, I never thought anything of the word
Trafficway. I can see how the abbreviation would perplex someone, though....
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2012, 06:00:03 PM
Wow. Having had relatives in KC my whole life, I never thought anything of the word Trafficway. I can see how the abbreviation would perplex someone, though....
it sounds like a terrible thing which I'd like to avoid!
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 12:15:16 PM
To me "Bkn." would have suggested either "Broken" or "Brooklyn."
Bacon? When I got a first glance of that post scrolling down, I thought I actually saw the full word "bacon." :-D
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 05:03:58 PM
What the heck is a "Trafficway"?
Someone who has between 100 and 199 posts on this forum?
Quote from: Roadsguy on November 01, 2012, 07:57:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 12:15:16 PM
To me "Bkn." would have suggested either "Broken" or "Brooklyn."
Bacon? When I got a first glance of that post scrolling down, I thought I actually saw the full word "bacon." :-D
I can look at nearly anything and see bacon.
First time I visited California, it took me forever to realize what "Cyn" meant. I didn't at first realize it was an abbreviation!
Quote from: empirestate on November 01, 2012, 08:47:33 PM
First time I visited California, it took me forever to realize what "Cyn" meant. I didn't at first realize it was an abbreviation!
me too - it took me about two years of
living there. I thought it was just some kind of obscure word, possibly Spanish.
I still haven't heard a good description of what sort of road a "trafficway" is. Arterial boulevard? Freeway? Jersey freeway? Something else?
If I saw "Cyn" I'd normally interpret it as a nickname for "Cynthia." What does it mean on a road sign? Like "trafficway," it's not something I've ever seen.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
If I saw "Cyn" I'd normally interpret it as a nickname for "Cynthia." What does it mean on a road sign? Like "trafficway," it's not something I've ever seen.
It's short for "Canyon", a word that appears in many California street names.
A similarly region-specific example is "Gd" in Michigan...
Someone explain what a Tkpe is? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpsroads.net%2Froads%2Fny%2Fny_17%2Ftkpe1.jpg&hash=7d097c8ff5019ef09e6658be52c746ba77d041d5)
Seen by me in Pacific Grove last weekend:
End Tour Bus Parking
No Parking From Here Until Point Lobos
Pretty sure it was no parking for the bus since there were cars parked ahead of the sign, but the sign didn't specify. Really confused the heck out of us, so we parked elsewhere.
Another lousy job by the Monterey County sign shop.
Quote from: Steve on November 01, 2012, 11:04:05 PM
Someone explain what a Tkpe is?
Take pee? Especially with all the beers you seem to have had tonight.
Quote from: Takumi on November 02, 2012, 12:05:24 AM
Quote from: Steve on November 01, 2012, 11:04:05 PM
Someone explain what a Tkpe is?
Take pee? Especially with all the beers you seem to have had tonight.
hehyyynoyw thatssss'not faiiirri
Quote from: Steve on November 01, 2012, 11:04:05 PM
Someone explain what a Tkpe is? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpsroads.net%2Froads%2Fny%2Fny_17%2Ftkpe1.jpg&hash=7d097c8ff5019ef09e6658be52c746ba77d041d5)
Reminds me of Msrg Reynolds Way.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
I still haven't heard a good description of what sort of road a "trafficway" is. Arterial boulevard? Freeway? Jersey freeway? Something else?
As far as I can tell, it's a major arterial street designed for through traffic to move from one section of the city to another. Left turns are largely prohibited along these streets.
Quote from: empirestate on November 01, 2012, 10:25:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
If I saw "Cyn" I'd normally interpret it as a nickname for "Cynthia." What does it mean on a road sign? Like "trafficway," it's not something I've ever seen.
It's short for "Canyon", a word that appears in many California street names.
A similarly region-specific example is "Gd" in Michigan...
God's in Michigan and he has a sign?
Quote from: Special K on November 02, 2012, 08:26:03 AM
Quote from: empirestate on November 01, 2012, 10:25:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
If I saw "Cyn" I'd normally interpret it as a nickname for "Cynthia." What does it mean on a road sign? Like "trafficway," it's not something I've ever seen.
It's short for "Canyon", a word that appears in many California street names.
A similarly region-specific example is "Gd" in Michigan...
God's in Michigan and he has a sign?
After living in the South for a few years in the 1990s, I interpret "gd" as a profanity because people there use it as such (short for "goddamn").
A trafficway in Kansas City is just another term for an arterial boulevard. It substitutes for Street or Avenue or whatever (except in the case of 7th Street Trafficway). Seems to connote a particularly impressive arterial.
Another Kansas Cityism: median approach signage for Shawnee Mission Parkway abbreviates it as "Sh Mn Pky".
Quote from: Special K on November 02, 2012, 08:25:16 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
I still haven't heard a good description of what sort of road a "trafficway" is. Arterial boulevard? Freeway? Jersey freeway? Something else?
As far as I can tell, it's a major arterial street designed for through traffic to move from one section of the city to another. Left turns are largely prohibited along these streets.
So it
is a Jersey Freeway! (more or less)
Not at all. A Jersey freeway has no cross traffic at all.
"Trafficway" is a generic term for a high-type road--it isn't really restricted to a particular category of road and it is actually a regional term, not purely a Kansas Cityism. Greater Kansas City has a number of Trafficways which are signalized surface arterials, while around Lawrence the proposed South Lawrence Trafficway is a full freeway. Topeka (50 miles west of Kansas City) has Trafficways too. I think "Trafficway" is primarily a northeast Kansas/Kansas City term because it seems to have penetrated a much smaller distance east of the state line.
The 7th Street Trafficway in Kansas City, Kansas has signalized intersections where left turns are permitted, BTW.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
If I saw "Cyn" I'd normally interpret it as a nickname for "Cynthia." What does it mean on a road sign? Like "trafficway," it's not something I've ever seen.
That's funny because I never had any trouble with "Cyn" for Canyon. Of course, other states abbreviate it as "Can", but "Cyn" always made perfect sense to me for some reason.
Quote from: empirestate on November 01, 2012, 10:25:51 PM
A similarly region-specific example is "Gd" in Michigan...
That one never fails to crack me up! "God Damn Rapids" is all I can think of when I see MI guide signs along I-96 or I-196! Seriously.
Quote from: Steve on November 01, 2012, 11:04:05 PM
Someone explain what a Tkpe is? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpsroads.net%2Froads%2Fny%2Fny_17%2Ftkpe1.jpg&hash=7d097c8ff5019ef09e6658be52c746ba77d041d5)
This one looks like "Orange Turnpike", missing the "a". "Tpke" is a pretty obvious abbreviation for Turnpike. That or "Tpk" are really the only ways that you could reasonably abbreviate the word. Again, that's a lot easier to decipher than "T(u)rfway"!!
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 02, 2012, 11:06:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
If I saw "Cyn" I'd normally interpret it as a nickname for "Cynthia." What does it mean on a road sign? Like "trafficway," it's not something I've ever seen.
That's funny because I never had any trouble with "Cyn" for Canyon. Of course, other states abbreviate it as "Can", but "Cyn" always made perfect sense to me for some reason.
Well, as I said, I've never seen it. I live on the East Coast and have for almost my entire life; the one exception (a year in Texas) was when I was born, so I understandably don't remember it too well! We don't have canyons on the East Coast unless you count Breaks Interstate Park down in Southwest Virginia/southeastern Kentucky (but I have never been there anyway). The only time I've encountered a road with "Canyon" in the name was around Waimea Canyon on Kauai and I simply do not recall the signs because my focus was on the scenery. It may well be that when seen in context, a sign with "Cyn" for "Canyon" might be perfectly obvious in its meaning, but if you've never seen one, you can't comment, right?
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 02, 2012, 11:06:02 AM
Quote from: Steve on November 01, 2012, 11:04:05 PM
Someone explain what a Tkpe is? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpsroads.net%2Froads%2Fny%2Fny_17%2Ftkpe1.jpg&hash=7d097c8ff5019ef09e6658be52c746ba77d041d5)
This one looks like "Orange Turnpike", missing the "a". "Tpke" is a pretty obvious abbreviation for Turnpike. That or "Tpk" are really the only ways that you could reasonably abbreviate the word. Again, that's a lot easier to decipher than "T(u)rfway"!!
I believe he was making fun of the typo in "Tkpe" (note the reversal of the "p" and the "k").
I've seen "Turnpike" abbreviated as "Tpke," "Tnpk," "Trpk," and "Trnpk," all on various signs within about a five-mile radius here in Northern Virginia. They refer to Little River Turnpike. Once upon a time the BGSs typically used "Tnpk" and the street sign blades used "Tpke," but lately it's varied a bit more. "Trpk" is unique to one sign on I-395. It's a strange abbreviation, but I suppose it's still reasonably clear what it means....although I guess I'm not the best person to say because I've lived here for almost 40 years and so of course I know the road's name.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 02, 2012, 11:26:56 AMI've seen "Turnpike" abbreviated as "Tpke," "Tnpk," "Trpk," and "Trnpk," all on various signs within about a five-mile radius here in Northern Virginia. They refer to Little River Turnpike. Once upon a time the BGSs typically used "Tnpk" and the street sign blades used "Tpke," but lately it's varied a bit more. "Trpk" is unique to one sign on I-395. It's a strange abbreviation, but I suppose it's still reasonably clear what it means....although I guess I'm not the best person to say because I've lived here for almost 40 years and so of course I know the road's name.
I am not particularly fond of any of these abbreviations--here we use "Tpk" (one more letter saved compared to any of the examples used in northern Virginia, and still unambiguous and easily understood).
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 02, 2012, 11:26:56 AM
It may well be that when seen in context, a sign with "Cyn" for "Canyon" might be perfectly obvious in its meaning, but if you've never seen one, you can't comment, right?
No offense intended, I was simply stating that it seemed intuitive to me.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 02, 2012, 11:26:56 AM
I believe he was making fun of the typo in "Tkpe" (note the reversal of the "p" and the "k").
LOL!! My brain actually corrected it for me and I never noticed that it was "Tkpe"! Good one! Oh well, I guess I understood what they were trying to say......
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 02, 2012, 11:26:56 AM
I've seen "Turnpike" abbreviated as "Tpke," "Tnpk," "Trpk," and "Trnpk," all on various signs within about a five-mile radius here in Northern Virginia. They refer to Little River Turnpike. Once upon a time the BGSs typically used "Tnpk" and the street sign blades used "Tpke," but lately it's varied a bit more. "Trpk" is unique to one sign on I-395. It's a strange abbreviation, but I suppose it's still reasonably clear what it means....although I guess I'm not the best person to say because I've lived here for almost 40 years and so of course I know the road's name.
I've seen them all too, though "Tpk" and "Tpke" seem to be the most common over the widest area. I actually lived in your area too when I was a kid, so I am familiar with Little River Turnpike (and the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike)!
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 02, 2012, 11:01:21 AM
"Trafficway" is a generic term for a high-type road--it isn't really restricted to a particular category of road and it is actually a regional term, not purely a Kansas Cityism. Greater Kansas City has a number of Trafficways which are signalized surface arterials, while around Lawrence the proposed South Lawrence Trafficway is a full freeway. Topeka (50 miles west of Kansas City) has Trafficways too. I think "Trafficway" is primarily a northeast Kansas/Kansas City term because it seems to have penetrated a much smaller distance east of the state line.
Springfield has them too.
Regarding the abbreviation 'Tfy' and the word 'trafficway' in general.....
Seeing the abbreviation on a sign shouldn't be very confusing/cryptic. If your directions say 'Exit at Oak Trafficway', and you see a sign for 'Oak Tfy', one would hope you'd put two and two together.
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 02, 2012, 11:29:26 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 02, 2012, 11:26:56 AMI've seen "Turnpike" abbreviated as "Tpke," "Tnpk," "Trpk," and "Trnpk," all on various signs within about a five-mile radius here in Northern Virginia. They refer to Little River Turnpike. Once upon a time the BGSs typically used "Tnpk" and the street sign blades used "Tpke," but lately it's varied a bit more. "Trpk" is unique to one sign on I-395. It's a strange abbreviation, but I suppose it's still reasonably clear what it means....although I guess I'm not the best person to say because I've lived here for almost 40 years and so of course I know the road's name.
I am not particularly fond of any of these abbreviations--here we use "Tpk" (one more letter saved compared to any of the examples used in northern Virginia, and still unambiguous and easily understood).
An extremely common variation not yet mentioned would simply be "Pike". The Massachusetts Turnpike is frequently, in fact usually, referred to as the Mass Pike. Interestingly, that's the only modern toll road I can think of that takes the abbreviation (NJ Turnpike never does, for example), but old turnpikes all over New England, Pennsylvania, etc. are often called "pikes".
While we're on the topic of odd abbreviations, how about PennDOT's use of Plymouth Meeting (http://goo.gl/maps/ex3dC) for I-476?
Quote from: PennDOTFan on November 02, 2012, 04:07:19 PM
While we're on the topic of odd abbreviations, how about PennDOT's use of Plymouth Meeting (http://goo.gl/maps/ex3dC) for I-476?
at my work, "mtg" is used fairly often. more so than "mtng" - if we're gonna abbreviate, we may as well save a keystroke.
Quote from: NE2 on November 02, 2012, 11:38:34 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 02, 2012, 11:01:21 AM
"Trafficway" is a generic term for a high-type road--it isn't really restricted to a particular category of road and it is actually a regional term, not purely a Kansas Cityism. Greater Kansas City has a number of Trafficways which are signalized surface arterials, while around Lawrence the proposed South Lawrence Trafficway is a full freeway. Topeka (50 miles west of Kansas City) has Trafficways too. I think "Trafficway" is primarily a northeast Kansas/Kansas City term because it seems to have penetrated a much smaller distance east of the state line.
Springfield has them too.
Not really–there is a Trafficway Street, but that's the only one in town to my knowledge. It's not a "high-type" road, either, just a two-lane downtown-ish street.
You're right, though it used to continue east on Chestnut Expressway: http://www.modot.org/newsandinfo/publications/documents/1971_back.pdf The latter may have been formerly named Chestnut Trafficway: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22chestnut+trafficway%22+springfield
http://goo.gl/maps/LjUj7
I-5 Exit 164B for E Martinez Dr. E is for Edgar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Martinez), not East.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2012, 01:55:13 PM
Regarding the abbreviation 'Tfy' and the word 'trafficway' in general.....
Seeing the abbreviation on a sign shouldn't be very confusing/cryptic. If your directions say 'Exit at Oak Trafficway', and you see a sign for 'Oak Tfy', one would hope you'd put two and two together.
He he he... Just drove through KC, and saw that the exit on I-29 is actually abbreviated 'Oak Trfwy', which is even less cryptic.
S.O.P. around here for construction zones seems to include 'DO NOT PASS' signs–even when there isn't even any head-to-head traffic. A prime example that comes to mind is when they redid the I-135/Kellogg interchange. I-135 had 'DO NOT PASS' signs, even though it's an elevated freeway without even the possibility of head-to-head traffic. So how, exactly, is one supposed to obey that? by not going by someone in the fast lane??
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2012, 02:26:32 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FTXDOT_R20-3.svg%2F80px-TXDOT_R20-3.svg.png&hash=ac5b77d7cf4e58674592e7aa4a88189fc6ea3b7d)
OMG! How has the
Deer Lady not made it onto this forum yet???
Please, please, if you haven't heard of this lady, listen to the YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCrJleggrI). Then, if you like, listen to the follow-up interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB1yEcdomt0).
Quote from: kphoger on November 06, 2012, 06:36:54 PM
S.O.P. around here for construction zones seems to include 'DO NOT PASS' signs–even when there isn't even any head-to-head traffic. A prime example that comes to mind is when they redid the I-135/Kellogg interchange. I-135 had 'DO NOT PASS' signs, even though it's an elevated freeway without even the possibility of head-to-head traffic. So how, exactly, is one supposed to obey that? by not going by someone in the fast lane??
Correct, if doing so would require you changing lanes. Around here (NYC) they phrase it as "STAY IN LANE", accompanied by single or double solid lines.
Quote from: empirestate on November 07, 2012, 01:07:44 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 06, 2012, 06:36:54 PM
S.O.P. around here for construction zones seems to include 'DO NOT PASS' signs–even when there isn't even any head-to-head traffic. A prime example that comes to mind is when they redid the I-135/Kellogg interchange. I-135 had 'DO NOT PASS' signs, even though it's an elevated freeway without even the possibility of head-to-head traffic. So how, exactly, is one supposed to obey that? by not going by someone in the fast lane??
Correct, if doing so would require you changing lanes. Around here (NYC) they phrase it as "STAY IN LANE", accompanied by single or double solid lines.
How sure are you that that's what it means? Without solid white lines, without any discouragement of changing lanes by the police or anything else....I think it unlikely, and it's certainly not adhered to.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2012, 01:55:13 PM
Regarding the abbreviation 'Tfy' and the word 'trafficway' in general.....
Seeing the abbreviation on a sign shouldn't be very confusing/cryptic. If your directions say 'Exit at Oak Trafficway', and you see a sign for 'Oak Tfy', one would hope you'd put two and two together.
This is a reasonable point, but on the other hand, if I hadn't been given directions and I saw that abbreviation, I'd ask what in the world that meant.
I showed this thread to my wife and her immediate reaction was, "What's a trafficway?"
Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2012, 09:32:17 AM
Quote from: empirestate on November 07, 2012, 01:07:44 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 06, 2012, 06:36:54 PM
S.O.P. around here for construction zones seems to include 'DO NOT PASS' signs–even when there isn't even any head-to-head traffic. A prime example that comes to mind is when they redid the I-135/Kellogg interchange. I-135 had 'DO NOT PASS' signs, even though it's an elevated freeway without even the possibility of head-to-head traffic. So how, exactly, is one supposed to obey that? by not going by someone in the fast lane??
Correct, if doing so would require you changing lanes. Around here (NYC) they phrase it as "STAY IN LANE", accompanied by single or double solid lines.
How sure are you that that's what it means? Without solid white lines, without any discouragement of changing lanes by the police or anything else....I think it unlikely, and it's certainly not adhered to.
Well, I'm as sure as I would be if I saw the sign on a two-way road with a dashed yellow centerline. If the sign is posted in a work zone situation, I would assume it to be temporary and to override the lack of restriction indicated by the pavement marking, but I would likewise be more confused than if the pavement markings were also temporarily changed to reflect the restriction.
I guess the question is whether "pass" means "intentionally and actively overtake" or "just happen to be going faster than". That's why I take a cue from the two-way road application, where it could only reasonably mean the former. In a same-direction situation, I'd apply it the same way.
Quote from: empirestate on November 07, 2012, 01:07:44 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 06, 2012, 06:36:54 PM
S.O.P. around here for construction zones seems to include 'DO NOT PASS' signseven when there isn't even any head-to-head traffic. A prime example that comes to mind is when they redid the I-135/Kellogg interchange. I-135 had 'DO NOT PASS' signs, even though it's an elevated freeway without even the possibility of head-to-head traffic. So how, exactly, is one supposed to obey that? by not going by someone in the fast lane??
Correct, if doing so would require you changing lanes. Around here (NYC) they phrase it as "STAY IN LANE", accompanied by single or double solid lines.
Massachusetts also uses "Stay In Lane" signs, along with single solid white lane lines, when they don't want single direction traffic passing within freeway work zones. The current median barrier work on Interstate 95 (aka MA 128) in Burlington and Woburn, which also involves a lane shift (all four lanes shift to the right, and the right shoulder (breakdown lane) becomes a travel lane through the work zone), is a good example of this treatment.
Based on my observations, overall compliance seems to be pretty good, except for trucks in the right center lane, who always seem to cross to the left center lane when the shift begins and then stay in that lane once it shifts back for at least a couple of miles before moving back into the right center lane (note that Mass regs don't allow large trucks to travel in the far left or left center lanes on four-lane freeways like I-95 - and there are no signs indicating this restriction is lifted within the work zone).
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 07, 2012, 10:00:49 AM
I showed this thread to my wife and her immediate reaction was, "What's a trafficway?"
I was advised to take a "trafficway" go to a certain restaurant when in Kansas City last April, and my immediate thought was
"How can I bypass that? It doesn't sound like a type of road in which I'd get anywhere fast."
Quote from: roadman on November 07, 2012, 07:14:12 PM
Quote from: empirestate on November 07, 2012, 01:07:44 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 06, 2012, 06:36:54 PM
S.O.P. around here for construction zones seems to include 'DO NOT PASS' signs–even when there isn't even any head-to-head traffic. A prime example that comes to mind is when they redid the I-135/Kellogg interchange. I-135 had 'DO NOT PASS' signs, even though it's an elevated freeway without even the possibility of head-to-head traffic. So how, exactly, is one supposed to obey that? by not going by someone in the fast lane??
Correct, if doing so would require you changing lanes. Around here (NYC) they phrase it as "STAY IN LANE", accompanied by single or double solid lines.
Massachusetts also uses "Stay In Lane" signs, along with single solid white lane lines, when they don't want single direction traffic passing within freeway work zones. The current median barrier work on Interstate 95 (aka MA 128) in Burlington and Woburn, which also involves a lane shift (all four lanes shift to the right, and the right shoulder (breakdown lane) becomes a travel lane through the work zone), is a good example of this treatment.
Based on my observations, overall compliance seems to be pretty good, except for trucks in the right center lane, who always seem to cross to the left center lane when the shift begins and then stay in that lane once it shifts back for at least a couple of miles before moving back into the right center lane (note that Mass regs don't allow large trucks to travel in the far left or left center lanes on four-lane freeways like I-95 - and there are no signs indicating this restriction is lifted within the work zone).
Based on my experience commuting on 128 between Peabody and Lexington this summer, compliance with the stay in lane signs in that work zone is TERRIBLE. Probably because it is several miles long and many people presumably don't realize that it covers several interchanges. Perhaps a "NEXT # MILES" sign under the stay in lane sign would be helpful. Many people will make it all the way from the left lane to the right lane by the end of the work zone because they don't realize the lane changing restriction doesn't end before their exit.
That whole setup was a terrible idea. There's no reason to prohibit lane changes anywhere other than the two points where the lanes shift, and they should have done something different with the onramps, because people coming off them don't always realize that they have no acceleration lane now. I always specifically avoid the right lane through there so I don't have to fear for my life.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 08, 2012, 10:37:29 AM
There's no reason to prohibit lane changes anywhere other than the two points where the lanes shift
I haven't seen the setup there, but I can think of another very good reason to prohibit lane changes: if there is little or no provision for shoulders during construction. Shoulders are what give an alert driver an escape path to avoid an accident if some yahoo makes an ill-advised lane change. Preventing lane changes is a good idea if there's no shoulder.
Quote from: theline on November 08, 2012, 02:03:23 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 08, 2012, 10:37:29 AM
There's no reason to prohibit lane changes anywhere other than the two points where the lanes shift
I haven't seen the setup there, but I can think of another very good reason to prohibit lane changes: if there is little or no provision for shoulders during construction. Shoulders are what give an alert driver an escape path to avoid an accident if some yahoo makes an ill-advised lane change. Preventing lane changes is a good idea if there's no shoulder.
Agreed. Weaving breeds conflict.
Quote from: theline on November 08, 2012, 02:03:23 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 08, 2012, 10:37:29 AM
There's no reason to prohibit lane changes anywhere other than the two points where the lanes shift
I haven't seen the setup there, but I can think of another very good reason to prohibit lane changes: if there is little or no provision for shoulders during construction. Shoulders are what give an alert driver an escape path to avoid an accident if some yahoo makes an ill-advised lane change. Preventing lane changes is a good idea if there's no shoulder.
Correct, the right lane has been shifted onto the shoulder, but that's not all that uncommon for Massachusetts. Even the MassPike doesn't have shoulders on the eastern half. And the shoulder argument only applies to traffic in the right lane in the first place. Traffic in one of the center lanes has cars on either side regardless.
And I've seen enough roads with no shoulders in my life to think that that is no excuse for a several-miles-long no passing zone.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 08, 2012, 03:07:15 PM
Quote from: theline on November 08, 2012, 02:03:23 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 08, 2012, 10:37:29 AM
There's no reason to prohibit lane changes anywhere other than the two points where the lanes shift
I haven't seen the setup there, but I can think of another very good reason to prohibit lane changes: if there is little or no provision for shoulders during construction. Shoulders are what give an alert driver an escape path to avoid an accident if some yahoo makes an ill-advised lane change. Preventing lane changes is a good idea if there's no shoulder.
Correct, the right lane has been shifted onto the shoulder, but that's not all that uncommon for Massachusetts. Even the MassPike doesn't have shoulders on the eastern half. And the shoulder argument only applies to traffic in the right lane in the first place. Traffic in one of the center lanes has cars on either side regardless.
And I've seen enough roads with no shoulders in my life to think that that is no excuse for a several-miles-long no passing zone.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If the road is built to interstate standards and there are no shoulders, I think a ban on passing is justified.
Authorities could make it more likely for motorists to obey the ban if they limit the length of the restriction. I've seen plenty of construction zones that appear to be much too long. Perhaps the job could be broken down to segments, so the length of the zone could be limited.
I'm still not convinced that 'DO NOT PASS' means the same thing as 'KEEP YOUR LANE' on a freeway. Is that relation written in code somewhere?
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2b.htm#section2B28
The Do Not Pass (R4-1) sign (see Figure 2B-10) may be used in addition to pavement markings (see Section 3B.02) to emphasize the restriction on passing.
But 3B.02 is about two-way roads.
(Incidentally, 3B.04 20-30 gives the 'discouraged for not prohibited' meaning for a single solid white line. Do any states use it differently in their MUTCD?)
Quote from: NE2 on November 08, 2012, 06:11:14 PM
But 3B.02 is about two-way roads.
Precisely.
Passing is a term that refers to two-way traffic. I can see posting DO NOT PASS signs in construction zones where there's two-way traffic, or on divided highways where traffic might be temporarily directed onto the other side, but it makes no sense to me on an elevated freeway any more than W14-3 (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2003r1/part2/fig2c-06_longdesc.htm) would.
Quote from: kphoger on November 08, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: NE2 on November 08, 2012, 06:11:14 PM
But 3B.02 is about two-way roads.
Precisely. Passing is a term that refers to two-way traffic.
So signs that say "Keep Right,
Pass Left" or "Keep Right Except To
Pass" are only meant to be used on two-way roads?
That said, while I agree with empirestate's interpretation, if I ruled the world (or just a DOT), I would never use a Do Not Pass sign in place of a Stay In Lane sign.
^ Right on both points, Kacie Jane. I pass slower cars on the interstate on every trip, but "no passing" does not equal "stay in lane." Yet too many times the former is posted when the latter is meant.
Quote from: kphoger on November 08, 2012, 05:59:27 PM
I'm still not convinced that 'DO NOT PASS' means the same thing as 'KEEP YOUR LANE' on a freeway. Is that relation written in code somewhere?
I don't think it does either. "Stay In Lane" (I haven't seen your wording often) is more restrictive: you can't move out of your lane even for reasons other than overtaking. It's probably the more appropriate sign for a one-way roadway. "Do Not Pass" is sufficient for two-lane roadways, because there's really no reason to leave your lane other than for passing.
Quote from: kphoger on November 08, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
Precisely. Passing is a term that refers to two-way traffic.
I don't buy that; I pass people all the time on freeways, by moving to their left, overtaking them, and moving back to the right. But I do make a distinction between that action, and simply happening to go faster than somebody (which often happens when I'm in the right lane whizzing by slow traffic in the middle and left lanes). Put another way, passing is something you do to traffic in front of you. Overtaking is what you do to traffic alongside you.
I can think of a situation where "DO NOT PASS" definitely doesn't mean "STAY IN LANE." I'm aware of a "DO NOT PASS" sign in the southbound HOV carriageway on I-95 near Newington, Virginia, that's there for a specific purpose: The HOV carriageway is reversible and there's a northbound flyover back into the general-purpose lanes at that point. When the lanes are pointing southbound, some people would use the exit lane for that ramp as a passing lane. So a "DO NOT PASS" sign was put up to denote that you could use the regular two travel lanes to pass as needed but you weren't supposed to be using that exit lane (deceleration lane).
I'm not sure if that sign is still standing because road construction began on that stretch of I-95 recently. Tried to find it on Street View but the image is older.
An abbreviation that is meaningful to local drivers can be extremely cryptic to out of towners. Last month we were driving westbound through Baton Rouge approaching the junction with I-10 and saw a VMS reading "2 LANES BLOCKED ON MRB". After about a mile of mulling that over I realized they must be referring to Mississippi River Bridge. Turned out the two lanes "blocked" were merely slow; two blocked lanes on that bridge would have been a disaster.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on November 10, 2012, 06:27:29 PMTurned out the two lanes "blocked" were merely slow; two blocked lanes on that bridge would have been a disaster.
I've run into this situation before... I think it's pretty likely that the lanes in question had in fact been blocked, but by the time you got to the site, the accident or whatever it was had been cleared, leaving only some residual delays.
Another one for the cryptic-message file: the advance guide and exit direction signs for Utah I-84 Exit 26 westbound--SR 83 South/Howell/ATK (each slash representing a line break). What is a "Howell"? What is an "ATK"? Is "ATK" something that modifies "Howell," or vice versa? It turns out that ATK is a far-from-obvious acronym for Alliant Techsystems, the current corporate incarnation of the space launch systems division of what used to be known as Morton Thiokol (of space shuttle O-ring infamy).
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 19, 2012, 03:59:02 PM
Another one for the cryptic-message file: the advance guide and exit direction signs for Utah I-84 Exit 26 westbound--SR 83 South/Howell/ATK (each slash representing a line break). What is a "Howell"? What is an "ATK"? Is "ATK" something that modifies "Howell," or vice versa? It turns out that ATK is a far-from-obvious acronym for Alliant Techsystems, the current corporate incarnation of the space launch systems division of what used to be known as Morton Thiokol (of space shuttle O-ring infamy).
Bringing up the follow-up question of when certain jargon-based abbreviations entered standard usage? IATA airport codes is an obvious example. LAX has been in common speech for a while, for example, but I saw a magazine in Fort Myers, FL recently called "RSW Living". Really? They have a magazine for squatters at the Southwest Florida Regional Airport??
So now stock symbols, of which "ATK" is an example, seem to be the next step.
And by the by, relating to airports, there are signs from the Hutchinson River Parkway in Harrison, NY that read "Harrison/County Airport". There is a line break, but it's no way apparent that the legend refers to the separate destinations "Harrison" and "[Westchester] County Airport". I've lived in NYS for 34 years and know every county backwards, yet I still find myself briefly wondering "wait...which county is Harrison County?"
Quote from: empirestate on November 19, 2012, 09:28:51 PM
Bringing up the follow-up question of when certain jargon-based abbreviations entered standard usage? IATA airport codes is an obvious example. LAX has been in common speech for a while, for example, but I saw a magazine in Fort Myers, FL recently called "RSW Living". Really? They have a magazine for squatters at the Southwest Florida Regional Airport??
I suppose MIA (Miami) sounds obvious, so they took it a step further. RSW might be known by the locals, but outside of that, only pilots and some frequent fliers probably know that one. I suppose it serves the area from Naples to Fort Meyers, so it gives the area an "identity" of sorts.
Usually all the sign has to say is "International / Regional Airport", and I can tell if that's my exit. If it's a really small airport, they just use the green square logo with a generic plane on it.
"ATK"...I suppose if you know, you care about it, and if you don't, well...then it doesn't matter. Not that I had a clue, either.
QuoteAdopt-A-Highway
Litter Control
"AHP"
Yes, it even has "˜smart quotes' on the sign.
There's a nearby business (like a warehouse or distribution center, maybe) with a sign out front that says:
QuoteAHP
A DSG Company
...as if that makes it any more obvious.
Quote from: formulanone on November 19, 2012, 10:21:40 PM
Quote from: empirestate on November 19, 2012, 09:28:51 PM
Bringing up the follow-up question of when certain jargon-based abbreviations entered standard usage? IATA airport codes is an obvious example. LAX has been in common speech for a while, for example, but I saw a magazine in Fort Myers, FL recently called "RSW Living". Really? They have a magazine for squatters at the Southwest Florida Regional Airport??
I suppose MIA (Miami) sounds obvious, so they took it a step further. RSW might be known by the locals, but outside of that, only pilots and some frequent fliers probably know that one. I suppose it serves the area from Naples to Fort Meyers, so it gives the area an "identity" of sorts.
Yeah, it's supposed to be a magazine for the Southwest Florida region, which I admit is unwieldy. But to pick the airport code, and not even an intuitive one, as your regional moniker? Seems pretty weird. When the practice first started (not just there, but in general) it struck me as kind of hi-falutin'. As in, "I'm hip and worldly enough that I know my airport code off hand, which means I can afford to fly a lot." ...Actually, that pretty much still goes on. :-)
CMH is often used to refer to central Ohio; as in other examples posted so far, the letters come from Port Columbus Int'l Airport. (Columbus Metropolitan Hangar, though that hasn't been the airport's name in a long time.)
About as common as CMH is 614, our area code.
I'm sure the Weather Channel using the codes on their weather maps in the early 90s didn't help matters much. (I am not sure whether that was a conscious cartographic choice or a technological limitation of the WeatherStar 4000.)
Quote from: vtk on November 20, 2012, 01:30:59 AM
(Columbus Metropolitan Hangar, though that hasn't been the airport's name in a long time.)
I thought it was Columbus
Municipal Hangar? ...which is actually kind of cool that they kept the old meaning.
I remember having an assignment in 3rd grade whereby I had to identify 20 airport codes as a weekly homework assignment. I recall getting four of them (FLL, BOS, BWI, MIA) only because I'd flown into/out of them as a kid. Thought it was a really "unfair" assignment, considering the available technology of the time...now I know way too many of them, due to work.
I suppose the letter codes fill less space on a map, so TWC used it. But how many people would know "MCO" for Orlando?
Quote from: empirestate on November 20, 2012, 12:43:59 AM
When the practice first started (not just there, but in general) it struck me as kind of hi-falutin'...Actually, that pretty much still goes on. :-)
Meh, no different than any other interest; it all eventually boils down to who knows more minutiae than the other guy. Go to a specific car forum, a photography forum, a travel forum; it's all acronyms and alphanumeric codes. After all, would the average Joe/Jane get half the I-99/I-238 quips, or would they think we're a bunch of AASHTO's?
Although I tend to agree, it's a bad idea for road signs, unless the acronym is very well-known.
Quote from: formulanone on November 20, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
Quote from: empirestate on November 20, 2012, 12:43:59 AM
When the practice first started (not just there, but in general) it struck me as kind of hi-falutin'...Actually, that pretty much still goes on. :-)
Meh, no different than any other interest; it all eventually boils down to who knows more minutiae than the other guy. Go to a specific car forum, a photography forum, a travel forum; it's all acronyms and alphanumeric codes. After all, would the average Joe/Jane get half the I-99/I-238 quips, or would they think we're a bunch of AASHTO's?
Oh sure, hobbies and interests are one thing, but with airport codes there was no sense that people actually had a particular interest in aviation. Exclusivity for its own sake was the thing, not the details of the subject itself.
Like I say, though, I don't feel that way quite as much anymore. I don't know whether it's because airport codes have become more common knowledge, or because I myself have traveled much more extensively so that they've become familiar. Quite probably, a little of both.
Quote from: formulanone on November 20, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
Quote from: vtk on November 20, 2012, 01:30:59 AM
(Columbus Metropolitan Hangar, though that hasn't been the airport's name in a long time.)
I thought it was Columbus Municipal Hangar? ...which is actually kind of cool that they kept the old meaning.
Yeah, probably Municipal.
When I was a teenager, there was a yellow diamond sign near my house which simply said WYE.
Why? (couldn't resist). My parents thought it was because the public bus used to do a three-point turnaround at that location. Of course, now I regret not taking pictures.
edit: Note I've never heard this usage elsewhere. US-101 in Marin County has a few "bus wyes", but they are just bus stops next to a CD ramp.
Quote from: flowmotion on November 28, 2012, 12:46:08 AM
When I was a teenager, there was a yellow diamond sign near my house which simply said WYE.
Why? (couldn't resist). My parents thought it was because the public bus used to do a three-point turnaround at that location. Of course, now I regret not taking pictures.
edit: Note I've never heard this usage elsewhere. US-101 in Marin County has a few "bus wyes", but they are just bus stops next to a CD ramp.
No fork in the road? When I see "wye" I think of Hammels Wye on the IND Rockaway Line (http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Hammels_Wye_%28IND_Rockaway%29). I've never ridden through there but I've passed under it on the road hundreds of times. The "bottom leg" of the wye is actually in revenue service at the present time, a rarity in recent years.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 28, 2012, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: flowmotion on November 28, 2012, 12:46:08 AM
When I was a teenager, there was a yellow diamond sign near my house which simply said WYE.
Why? (couldn't resist). My parents thought it was because the public bus used to do a three-point turnaround at that location. Of course, now I regret not taking pictures.
edit: Note I've never heard this usage elsewhere. US-101 in Marin County has a few "bus wyes", but they are just bus stops next to a CD ramp.
No fork in the road? When I see "wye" I think of Hammels Wye on the IND Rockaway Line (http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Hammels_Wye_%28IND_Rockaway%29). I've never ridden through there but I've passed under it on the road hundreds of times. The "bottom leg" of the wye is actually in revenue service at the present time, a rarity in recent years.
Late reply, but the "wye" was just a T intersection. I assume the bus must have turned, backed-up, and then turned again.
Also, not a traffic sign, but over the holidays I was hanging out with some Germans. We came across a sign which said POSTED NO DUMPING. They couldn't understand why it would say "posted" when it was obviously posted on a sign, and we couldn't explain it very well either.
I've seen other prohibitory-type signs that lead off with POSTED also, and I agree it's redundant.
"POSTED" is probably mandatory legal verbiage for enforceability.
so, why is it there? because we have elected officials, that's why.
I've seen a lot of signs, usually in rural areas, that say "POSTED/NO TRESPASSING."
The requirements for what you do or do not have to post vary from state to state. For example, in some states it's OK to hunt unless the landowner puts up a sign prohibiting it; in other states, it's not OK to hunt unless the landowner gives you permission. The form of the sign required also varies from state to state. Most likely a lot of the "standard" signs you see on the market at places like Home Depot are made with the more restrictive states' laws in mind–some states explicitly require "posting" to exclude people. My guess is that the use of "POSTED" on signs is an overly cautious reaction to statutes that require "posting" of a notice prohibiting hunting or trespassing–most likely somebody saw that a "No Trespassing" restriction must be "posted" to be effective and overreacted by thinking it meant the word "Posted" was needed, and it then became customary in many places. (I do not know whether any state actually requires the inclusion of that word on the sign.) The use of redundancy in legal writing is way too common. Lots of attorneys start their court filings by putting the title in bold type ("Defendant flowmotion's Motion for Summary Judgment on the Issue of Posting") and then immediately using the title all over again as the first sentence ("Defendant flowmotion, by and through undersigned counsel, hereby files the following Motion for Summary Judgment on the Issue of Posting."). It's such a waste of space, especially if you have a page limit, but an awful lot of attorneys cannot begin to imagine filing a document that doesn't begin like that.
There was an article about the posting issue as it relates to hunting in a 2004 issue of the Duke Law Journal. Here's a .PDF link if anyone's interested: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1238&context=dlj
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 28, 2012, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: flowmotion on November 28, 2012, 12:46:08 AM
When I was a teenager, there was a yellow diamond sign near my house which simply said WYE.
Why? (couldn't resist). My parents thought it was because the public bus used to do a three-point turnaround at that location. Of course, now I regret not taking pictures.
edit: Note I've never heard this usage elsewhere. US-101 in Marin County has a few "bus wyes", but they are just bus stops next to a CD ramp.
No fork in the road? When I see "wye" I think of Hammels Wye on the IND Rockaway Line (http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Hammels_Wye_%28IND_Rockaway%29). I've never ridden through there but I've passed under it on the road hundreds of times. The "bottom leg" of the wye is actually in revenue service at the present time, a rarity in recent years.
When I see "Wye", I immediately think of the old Wye Motor Lodge in Ducansville, PA - so named because it was located at a junction of two old Pennsylvania Railroad branch lines - the connections between the lines formed a wye - something that used to be common in railroad construction.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F41Pj85AN-1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg&hash=413194c00b81c53aae9f36abb5a863f70d9eb02f)
Apparently yellow traps are starting to be more common in Clark County since they've sprung up on many lights around here recently. Honestly it's lazy signal programming...
Anyone seen these before?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lm527fKvEf1qkl8dno1_500.jpg&hash=6e1d9513a252ceb91fe302530f38d22964b0da60)
Quote from: KEK Inc. on January 04, 2013, 09:20:57 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F41Pj85AN-1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg&hash=413194c00b81c53aae9f36abb5a863f70d9eb02f)
Apparently yellow traps are starting to be more common in Clark County since they've sprung up on many lights around here recently. Honestly it's lazy signal programming...
Anyone seen these before?
In New Jersey, the opposite was quite common -- "DELAYED GREEN - PLEASE WAIT". In otherwords, oncoming traffic gets the green first, so don't jump the light once cross traffic goes red.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 10:13:05 PMIn New Jersey, the opposite was quite common -- "DELAYED GREEN - PLEASE WAIT". In otherwords, oncoming traffic gets the green first, so don't jump the light once cross traffic goes red.
I'm not usually one to criticize such things, but I'd think that would fall into the category of "so obvious it shouldn't need to be said".
Quote from: Central Avenue on January 04, 2013, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 10:13:05 PMIn New Jersey, the opposite was quite common -- "DELAYED GREEN - PLEASE WAIT". In otherwords, oncoming traffic gets the green first, so don't jump the light once cross traffic goes red.
I'm not usually one to criticize such things, but I'd think that would fall into the category of "so obvious it shouldn't need to be said".
I like the Indiana version that says "WAIT DELAYED SIGNAL" with WAIT in tall letters...it's like it's yelling at you! No "please"....
Quote from: KEK Inc. on January 04, 2013, 09:20:57 PM
Apparently yellow traps are starting to be more common in Clark County since they've sprung up on many lights around here recently. Honestly it's lazy signal programming...
No it's not. It's good progression for through traffic.
Not necessarily a word message, but these are all over Virginia Beach.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8199%2F8220532191_b6e980786b_z.jpg&hash=e62dad74ebdc18ce36c41069b3fb3273871f0e21)
"NO FUCKING"? they could've just borrowed a sign from Austria
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.mirror.co.uk%2Fincoming%2Farticle797501.ece%2FALTERNATES%2Fs615%2FA%2Bsign%2Bat%2Bthe%2Bentrance%2Bto%2Bthe%2Btown%2Bof%2BFucking%2Bin%2BAustria&hash=8afc988ed874b6063c1df7ad944fc5a73a4e7515)
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 10:13:05 PM
In New Jersey, the opposite was quite common -- "DELAYED GREEN - PLEASE WAIT". In otherwords, oncoming traffic gets the green first, so don't jump the light once cross traffic goes red.
are there environments where that really needs to be spelled out? maybe I'm just used to SoCal which has a lot of extremely non-intuitive signal progressions, but I never assume that when a given path gets red, mine will be next to get green.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 08, 2013, 02:01:13 PM
Not necessarily a word message, but these are all over Virginia Beach.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8199%2F8220532191_b6e980786b_z.jpg&hash=e62dad74ebdc18ce36c41069b3fb3273871f0e21)
I simply assumed it meant, 'No Shit!'
It actually means "No cursing". The signs are posted EVERYWHERE in Virginia Beach, and even on all Hampton Roads Transit buses. VB Police actually enforce it, at least around the oceanfront, but everyone always considered it a joke, and those of us from other local cities always laughed at it.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on January 08, 2013, 04:57:41 PM
It actually means "No cursing". The signs are posted EVERYWHERE in Virginia Beach, and even on all Hampton Roads Transit buses. VB Police actually enforce it, at least around the oceanfront, but everyone always considered it a joke, and those of us from other local cities always laughed at it.
is that even enforceable? wouldn't there be freedom-of-speech issues present? see Cohen v. California.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 08, 2013, 02:15:40 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 10:13:05 PM
In New Jersey, the opposite was quite common -- "DELAYED GREEN - PLEASE WAIT". In otherwords, oncoming traffic gets the green first, so don't jump the light once cross traffic goes red.
are there environments where that really needs to be spelled out? maybe I'm just used to SoCal which has a lot of extremely non-intuitive signal progressions, but I never assume that when a given path gets red, mine will be next to get green.
In NJ, every time a light turns red on another path, you go.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 08, 2013, 06:19:54 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on January 08, 2013, 04:57:41 PM
It actually means "No cursing". The signs are posted EVERYWHERE in Virginia Beach, and even on all Hampton Roads Transit buses. VB Police actually enforce it, at least around the oceanfront, but everyone always considered it a joke, and those of us from other local cities always laughed at it.
is that even enforceable? wouldn't there be freedom-of-speech issues present? see Cohen v. California.
It's probably dismissed if anyone ever actually goes to court. Presumably the only people who actually pay the fine are tourists who can't stick around until the court date. I've never actually heard of it being legally challenged though.
Burgess v. City of Virginia Beach (http://va.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19890919_0040083.VA.htm/qx)
QuoteBecause the City of Virginia Beach also enacted an ordinance proscribing abusive language, which has been limited by the Supreme Court of Virginia to prohibit only fighting words, we find that § 23-22 was meant to have a broader sweep than fighting words. If, as the City of Virginia Beach contends, Burgess' remarks rose to the level of fighting words, it was incumbent upon the City to charge him under Code § 23-12. While we in no way condone the language of Burgess, we hold that since the ordinance is susceptible of application to protected speech, it is unconstitutional. Therefore, we reverse the appellant's conviction thereunder.
§ 23-22 has since been repealed, leaving only § 23-12, which only applies to "fighting words":
QuoteIf any person shall, in the presence or hearing of another, curse or abuse such other person, or use any violent abusive language to such other person concerning himself or any of his relations, or otherwise use such language under circumstances reasonably calculated to provoke a breach of the peace, he shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.
Fuck the police.
Well there we go, I guess it's since been repealed.
I don't really follow the news down there anymore since I've moved.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on January 08, 2013, 10:24:39 PM
Well there we go, I guess it's since been repealed.
I don't really follow the news down there anymore since I've moved.
The signs look recent, so it's a case of unenforceable signs being installed.
Quote from: Steve on January 08, 2013, 07:04:53 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 08, 2013, 02:15:40 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 10:13:05 PM
In New Jersey, the opposite was quite common -- "DELAYED GREEN - PLEASE WAIT". In otherwords, oncoming traffic gets the green first, so don't jump the light once cross traffic goes red.
are there environments where that really needs to be spelled out? maybe I'm just used to SoCal which has a lot of extremely non-intuitive signal progressions, but I never assume that when a given path gets red, mine will be next to get green.
In NJ, every time a light turns red on another path, you go.
Sounds like Chicago. If the light for cross traffic turns red, you go, even if you don't have the green ball*.
*I've watched this happen on several occasions when the left turn lane gets a green arrow, and some doofus hits the gas and goes straight across the intersection in front of turning traffic.
Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2013, 09:42:26 AM
Quote from: Steve on January 08, 2013, 07:04:53 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 08, 2013, 02:15:40 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 10:13:05 PM
In New Jersey, the opposite was quite common -- "DELAYED GREEN - PLEASE WAIT". In otherwords, oncoming traffic gets the green first, so don't jump the light once cross traffic goes red.
are there environments where that really needs to be spelled out? maybe I'm just used to SoCal which has a lot of extremely non-intuitive signal progressions, but I never assume that when a given path gets red, mine will be next to get green.
In NJ, every time a light turns red on another path, you go.
Sounds like Chicago. If the light for cross traffic turns red, you go, even if you don't have the green ball*.
*I've watched this happen on several occasions when the left turn lane gets a green arrow, and some doofus hits the gas and goes straight across the intersection in front of turning traffic.
I see that happen
frequently at an intersection near my house where there are two left-only lanes, two straight-only lanes, and two right-only lanes. The left-only lanes get their green arrows, the other lanes still have red lights, and it's not unusual for the first car in the left-hand straight-only lane to take off through the intersection despite the red light for his lane. What's unusual is how few of the opposing left-turn drivers blow their horns when that happens! The times I've been coming the other way, I blow my horn long and loud. Good number of the violators don't even look the least bit sheepish, either. (I have not been able to get a sense for how many of these idiots are mobile-phone users, though.) Astonishingly, I've never seen a collision at that intersection due to this sort of behavior.
I suspect, but cannot prove, that the people who do this aren't even looking at the light and are instead reacting to the cars to their left beginning to move. I often see people further back from the intersection waiting on line for the light to change who roll forward a few feet when the left-turners start moving, which makes me assume they're automatic-transmission drivers who take their foot off the brake when the left-turners start to move. I've never seen a rear-ending by any of these people, thankfully.
BTW, the situation Kacie Jane mentions sounds a lot like the so-called "Pittsburgh Left," where the guy waiting to turn left guns it off the line and cuts a turn before the people on the other side start moving.
(1) Some people jump the green on purpose, so some of the drivers you see might be ignoring your horn blast for precisely that reason.
(2) Not blaring their horns doesn't mean people don't notice or don't care–just that they don't let it get to them. I've noticed that, in places with lax adherence to traffic laws, people don't get as upset by that kind of thing and don't blare their horns.
(3) I often choose to not blare my horn in that kind of situation, because the last thing I want is for that offender to come to a stop in the middle of the intersection. Better to let him/her through as quickly as possible rather than cause alarm or confusion.
Quote from: kphoger on January 09, 2013, 11:02:46 AM
(2) Not blaring their horns doesn't mean people don't notice or don't care–just that they don't let it get to them. I've noticed that, in places with lax adherence to traffic laws, people don't get as upset by that kind of thing and don't blare their horns.
indeed - hardly any horns in Mexico City, which is probably the least orderly place I've ever driven in.
Another possibility is that people are startled and simply don't react to honk. That happened to my wife on the street leading out of our neighborhood when someone, apparently pissed that she was "only" doing 30 in a 25 zone, passed her over the double yellow line and cut as closely as possible in front of her as he moved back over. She said that she was so startled she didn't react at all.
Not that it would have mattered, of course, when you get a dickhead like that.
It's true. Your first reaction is (should be) to make sure you handle the situation safely. By the time your brain is done with that, the situation is often already over and there's no longer a need to honk.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 09, 2013, 10:39:51 AM
BTW, the situation Kacie Jane mentions sounds a lot like the so-called "Pittsburgh Left," where the guy waiting to turn left guns it off the line and cuts a turn before the people on the other side start moving.
I've seen that many times around here as well, often enough that "Chicago Left" could be an alternate term for it.
Quote from: 1995hoo link=topic=7083.msg195843#msg195843
BTW, the situation Kacie Jane mentions sounds a lot like the so-called "Pittsburgh Left," where the guy waiting to turn left guns it off the line and cuts a turn before the people on the other side start moving.
That happens around here occasionally, particularly at an intersection of 3-lane roads where the left turn is sharper than 90°. That geometry makes it so easy...
Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2013, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 09, 2013, 10:39:51 AM
BTW, the situation Kacie Jane mentions sounds a lot like the so-called "Pittsburgh Left," where the guy waiting to turn left guns it off the line and cuts a turn before the people on the other side start moving.
I've seen that many times around here as well, often enough that "Chicago Left" could be an alternate term for it.
Or "New England left". Drivers up here do it more often than not. I've even picked up the habit, since given the number of permissive-only left turns up here you often don't have a choice.
probably the most awesome driving maneuver I've ever seen is someone in Ensenada, Mexico making a Boston Left (which is how I learned it!).
from the right shoulder.
of a six-lane arterial.
he was going 40 km/h down the destination road before anyone else moved.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 09, 2013, 03:57:27 PM
probably the most awesome driving maneuver I've ever seen is someone in Ensenada, Mexico making a Boston Left (which is how I learned it!).
from the right shoulder.
of a six-lane arterial.
he was going 40 km/h down the destination road before anyone else moved.
Now that took major cojones or a major death wish.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 09, 2013, 03:57:27 PM
probably the most awesome driving maneuver I've ever seen is someone in Ensenada, Mexico making a Boston Left (which is how I learned it!).
from the right shoulder.
of a six-lane arterial.
he was going 40 km/h down the destination road before anyone else moved.
Are you saying he pulled to the right and jumped the green by turning left across 6 lanes? Cerrado!*
* I have no clue what I'm saying, but I think it's Spanish.
Cerrado means closed, so...yeah. Almost works.
Quote from: Steve on January 09, 2013, 10:43:09 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 09, 2013, 03:57:27 PM
probably the most awesome driving maneuver I've ever seen is someone in Ensenada, Mexico making a Boston Left (which is how I learned it!).
from the right shoulder.
of a six-lane arterial.
he was going 40 km/h down the destination road before anyone else moved.
Are you saying he pulled to the right and jumped the green by turning left across 6 lanes? Cerrado!*
* I have no clue what I'm saying, but I think it's Spanish.
to visualize this correctly, it helps to know that in Mexico, a lot of the time the shoulder serves as a frontage road and parking area. the guy was parked at a business, got in his car, drove on the shoulder up to the intersection, then made his move.
Quote from: Takumi on January 09, 2013, 11:11:58 PM
Cerrado means closed, so...yeah. Almost works.
[I actually know that word - I have a surprising amount of Spanish vocab for someone who never learned or uses the language]
"CARRER TALLAT PER OBRES"? Now, that I had to figure out by context!
Road closed due to construction????
Quote from: kphoger on January 14, 2013, 09:37:57 AMRoad closed due to construction????
Yup--in Catalan, not Castilian Spanish. In Spain there are a couple of decrees which mandate bilingualism (i.e., use of Spanish and a local non-Spanish language), but their applicability is confined to infrastructure which is considered of national interest, such as roads on the RCE and transport terminals such as airports, railway stations, ports, etc. On locally maintained infrastructure the local language is often the only one that is found on signs.
I have known a few Britons who have confused Catalan with Spanish because their first exposure to an Iberian Romance language was on a trip to Barcelona. This is a mistake which I think Americans in general are less likely to make because our proximity to Mexico gives us more passive exposure to Hispanophone culture.
I just figured CARRER was equivalent to CARRETERA, and PER OBRES was equivalent to POR OBRAS. If I were to see a sign that said HIGHWAY and DUE TO WORK, I would assume the middle word meant CLOSED.
I think carrer is actually cognate to carrera (which in Castilian Spanish has a pronounced motorsport connotation--e.g. "Carrera Panamericana"). In Catalonia it is used as a city street label in contexts similar to calle in Castile; compare calle Fuencarral (Madrid), carrer Balmer (Barcelona). Paseo and passeig, vÃa and via are cognate pairs which are used as street labels in the same contexts in Castilian and Catalonian cities respectively.
Carretera is actually a word in Catalan too, but the plural is formed differently (cf. bilingual RCE identification signs in Catalonia: "Red de Carreteras del Estado/Xarxa de Carreteres d'Estat").
Thread bumped for a sign I spotted on Saturday near the South Riding development in Loudoun County, Virginia. On westbound US-50 (six lanes with a median through there) there's an uncontrolled intersection serving South Riding and the left-turn lane is posted with a black-on-white sign reading "NO DOUBLE STACKING IN CROSSOVER."
I understood the message clearly enough, but it struck me as a fine candidate for "Cryptic word messages on traffic signs" because I'd wager that a lot of people seeing it for the first time are puzzled by it–and indeed my wife's reaction to the sign was that "DOUBLE STACKING" sounds like something to do with a fast-food hamburger.
No photo, unfortunately. By the time I saw the sign it was too late and I was going too fast. I'll link the Street View, but it's not a clear image. It's the white sign on the left just ahead of the camera position. http://goo.gl/maps/gbhox
So is that supposed to mean "only one vehicle allowed in the crossover at a time", then?
Quote from: Duke87 on April 22, 2013, 07:58:28 PM
So is that supposed to mean "only one vehicle allowed in the crossover at a time", then?
I assume so–I interpreted it as meaning that if I pull into the crossover and turn partway to wait for an opening, you're not supposed to pull up next to me going in the same direction.
We very seldom go that way, but if we're on there again anytime soon I'll try to remember to get a picture.
No, it means you're not allowed to wait for a break in traffic on top of another vehicle.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2013, 11:46:06 AMI understood the message clearly enough, but it struck me as a fine candidate for "Cryptic word messages on traffic signs" because I'd wager that a lot of people seeing it for the first time are puzzled by it–and indeed my wife's reaction to the sign was that "DOUBLE STACKING" sounds like something to do with a fast-food hamburger.
I would not want to take the opposite end of that bet. I actually had to read your post three times to form a reasonably clear idea of what the sign was meant to do: prevent situations where two cars, coming from opposite directions, pull into the crossover
at the same time to wait to complete their left turns. Unless the road in question has a sufficiently wide median between the carriageways (and it sounds like this length of US 50 does not), each car blocks the other's sightlines, which makes it unsafe for the drivers of both cars to complete their intended turns.
A better solution to this problem (assuming there is little traffic on the side road that actually wants to cross US 50, as opposed to turning in one direction or the other) is to close the crossover and install Michigan lefts.
I'm not sure it's an "opposite directions" scenario because the side road is located solely on the south side of Route 50. Take a look at the Street View I linked and click down the road a bit to see the crossover.
But maybe I misunderstood the sign.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2013, 10:51:18 PMI'm not sure it's an "opposite directions" scenario because the side road is located solely on the south side of Route 50. Take a look at the Street View I linked and click down the road a bit to see the crossover.
Yup, it is a tee junction (I didn't actually look at the StreetView extract until after I posted). However, a vehicle on the side road wishing to turn left onto US 50 and using the crossover to divide the turn into two stages can easily wind up abreast of a second car on US 50 wishing to turn left into the side road. It is a different route to the same undesirable result.
I think the same remedy--crossover closure plus Michigan lefts--would work here, but the underlying problem is that Virginia DOT allowed a major traffic generator to set up in one of the quadrants of this intersection. There would not be a double-stacking problem if that development were simply not there. Closing the StreetView window and looking at the mapping for this area, I see that it is rural but fairly densely settled, with at least one car dealership and a number of subdivisions (with direct access to US 50) within just one mile of the SR 28 cloverleaf. If there is any intention to allow further development while preserving US 50's capability to handle through traffic without delay, pretty severe access management will have to be rolled out or US 50 will have to be upgraded to a freeway.
Off topic; not a cryptic road sign but an error message: "THE SPHINX IS ABSENT".
These parking signs are all over downtown DC. Lots of people get tickets because they don't understand the message. I'm interested in hearing you folks' interpretations. I know what the sign is intended to mean, but I don't think it conveys it well at all.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F0DEF1629-D76A-49F6-A080-741646860996-12169-00000A6DED92A70D_zps9be20386.jpg&hash=f2bd2b0eaa74e10def441057fdf1ee7d5cf437c4)
7am to 6:30pm, Monday through Saturday: paid parking, limit of 2 hours.
6:30pm-10pm, Monday through Saturday: paid parking, unlimited time.
all times not covered above (nights and Sundays, effectively): free parking, unlimited time.
do I win a prize?
You are correct. For some reason DC writes tons of tickets to people who think the "no time limit" part means free parking (two local traffic reporters have confirmed this to me). I wonder if it's because that part of the sign is in a different color.
What does the sign above it say? Looks like some sort of a no parking sign. Not clear from the sign on what happens from 10PM-7AM and Sundays. Agree that listed times are all paid parking.
No parking any time to the left of the sign. There's a commercial driveway there.
Not ever having seen paid parking with no time limit, I would translate the sign thusly:
"However you interpret this sign, you might be wrong. Give up. Park somewhere else you know it's legal."
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2013, 09:19:29 PM
Not ever having seen paid parking with no time limit, I would translate the sign thusly:
"However you interpret this sign, you might be wrong. Give up. Park somewhere else you know it's legal."
Simple remedy would just add 7A-10P uner the Pay to Park wording. Problem solved!
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2013, 07:48:09 PM
You are correct. For some reason DC writes tons of tickets to people who think the "no time limit" part means free parking (two local traffic reporters have confirmed this to me). I wonder if it's because that part of the sign is in a different color.
I worded this poorly. The "for some reason" should have come after "people who." It's obvious why DC writes the tickets.
I'd probably word the sign differently so that there could be no ambiguity that you have to pay, though I'm unsure what I'd say.
I parked at one of those signs recently, and indeed it took me a bit to figure it out. It should read something like:
Metered parking
2 hour limit
7:00 am-6:30 pm
Mon thru Sat
Metered parking
No limit
6:30 pm-10:00
Mon thru Sat
Free parking
No limit
All other times
My question, of course, is if you park at 4:31 pm, are you good until 10:00 pm, or will you have exceeded the 2-hour limit as of 6:31 pm, even though at that time there is no longer a limit in place? In other words, does the limit apply to the start of your parking time or the end of it? Of course the meter wouldn't sell you enough hours at 4:31 to get you to 10:00 pm, so you'd have to feed the meter at 6:31.
99% sure that if you park at 4:30 pm, you're good -- not just till 10:00 pm (provided you feed the meter), but till 9:00 am the next morning (again, provided you feed the meter at 7:00 am to take advantage of those first two hours).
Quote from: empirestate on April 23, 2013, 11:16:29 PM
....
.... Of course the meter wouldn't sell you enough hours at 4:31 to get you to 10:00 pm, so you'd have to feed the meter at 6:31.
Or you can pay by mobile phone, in which case you can pay up to 10:00. I use the pay-by-phone at the 12-hour meters when I go to baseball games. The software knows when the meter enforcement ends and doesn't let you pay past that time (example: if pull up at noon for a 1:05 game, it won't let me pay for more than six hours 30 minutes). I assume it works the same way in the downtown areas subject to the sign seen in my prior post. Of course, if you misunderstand the sign and pay for too short a time, you still get a ticket. I've stopped to warn people what the signs mean when I've been walking to Verizon Center and invariably they've been shocked and grateful.
(The downside of paying by phone, from parkers' standpoint, is you can't use leftover time someone else paid for. If I pay until 6:30 in case the ballgame goes to extra innings but I leave at 4:10, the meter is no longer paid and the next person has to pay. The pay-by-phone is tied to your license plate number and the display on the meter doesn't change when you pay this way.)
Ambiguous signs I have only seen in CO; "No Double Turn!" When I moved here many years ago, I thought they specified no u-turn. What they are saying is is that only 1 lane may turn left, (in most cases.) There may be a few examples where they do not want 2 lanes turning right. No Double Turn still makes me wince, after almost 30 years, though.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 22, 2013, 11:10:31 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2013, 10:51:18 PMI'm not sure it's an "opposite directions" scenario because the side road is located solely on the south side of Route 50. Take a look at the Street View I linked and click down the road a bit to see the crossover.
Yup, it is a tee junction (I didn't actually look at the StreetView extract until after I posted). However, a vehicle on the side road wishing to turn left onto US 50 and using the crossover to divide the turn into two stages can easily wind up abreast of a second car on US 50 wishing to turn left into the side road. It is a different route to the same undesirable result.
Wait a minute... A vehicle turning left from the side road (Elk Lick Road, right?) would have the other vehicle in his sightlines only if they didn't keep right of each other (similar to what is seen in this example (http://goo.gl/maps/p8N5U)). Couldn't this easily be prevented by striping (such as in this example (http://goo.gl/maps/3u05U))? Or is the median too narrow to allow that sort of striping?
I'm not sure if cryptic is the right word, but "unusual sign" might be the right phrase.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.formulanone.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2FAutsticPersonInAreaSign-CR375.jpg&hash=7ec47354bfdb9a14a60658ab902783d13792bedf)
Quote from: formulanone on April 26, 2013, 11:05:20 AM
I'm not sure if cryptic is the right word, but "unusual sign" might be the right phrase.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.formulanone.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2FAutsticPersonInAreaSign-CR375.jpg&hash=7ec47354bfdb9a14a60658ab902783d13792bedf)
Well, don't honk.
I wonder if the person lives there, or if he's just visiting and that's a temporary sign....
On a more serious note, though, do they ever take down signs that say "Deaf Child" or whatever? I mean, eventually they grow up or move or something, right?
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 09:25:50 AM
I wonder if the person lives there, or if he's just visiting and that's a temporary sign....
On a more serious note, though, do they ever take down signs that say "Deaf Child" or whatever? I mean, eventually they grow up or move or something, right?
A street about two or three miles from my parents' house had a "Blind Pedestrian" warning sign for many years. It was gone one day so I mentioned it to them the next time I saw them and my mom said the person had died (not from a traffic accident). So I guess some places remove that kind of sign.
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 09:25:50 AM
I wonder if the person lives there, or if he's just visiting and that's a temporary sign....
On a more serious note, though, do they ever take down signs that say "Deaf Child" or whatever? I mean, eventually they grow up or move or something, right?
I never know how I'm supposed to react to those sorts of signs.
When I see a "Slow Children" sign, I try to speed up if I don't see them, because it'll take them forever to get across the street.
Aheh.
My sister, who has never wanted to have children, once stole a sign that said "Watch out for children". He he he.
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 12:24:49 PM
My sister, who has never wanted to have children, once stole a sign that said "Watch out for children". He he he.
My brother's fraternity house had a "No Dumping" sign on the restroom door.
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 09:25:50 AM
I wonder if the person lives there, or if he's just visiting and that's a temporary sign....
On a more serious note, though, do they ever take down signs that say "Deaf Child" or whatever? I mean, eventually they grow up or move or something, right?
The main road near where I live had Deaf Person signs removed a number of years ago.
Somewhere in my travels, I remember seeing a sign saying "NO TURN ON RED WHEN SCHOOLCHILDREN ARE PRESENT". So does that mean on a Saturday morning, if a kid or group of school-aged kids just happen to be meandering at a street corner, I have to wait for the light to turn green? How do I know that they are not drop-outs???
And along the same lines of vagueness, if a sign said "NO TURN ON RED WHEN CHILDREN (OR PEDESTRIANS) ARE PRESENT", how close do they have to be to the corner in order to make that law stick? What if they are at an opposite corner? What if they are a lady of the night?
My reaction (as a deaf person) to "DEAF CHILD" signs: go ahead and paint a target on my back, why don't you.
"DEAF CHILD" etc. signs are not diagrammed in the MUTCD, though they are, at least in theory, covered under the general grant of permission to use word messages that are not explicitly shown in the MUTCD and do not have the same purpose as any other standard sign. However, they appear in many state signing manuals as an option. In practice I suspect most engineers use them to accommodate demands from concerned citizens who do not realize that these signs do not give drivers any meaningful information and instead call attention to the presence of a vulnerable (or potentially vulnerable) person in the neighborhood.
There has never been one of these signs on my street, but these signs are used elsewhere in Wichita, e.g. on St. Paul (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Wichita,+KS&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Wichita,+Sedgwick,+Kansas&ll=37.701768,-97.375914&spn=0.00427,0.009645&t=m&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=37.701827,-97.375954&panoid=o4ZIYSuV7y3bjWc-fBHqBg&cbp=12,6.4,,0,9.75) (about a mile from where I grew up).
In the Franklinton neighborhood of Columbus, there is at least one "blind pedestrians in area" sign, complete with a white cane icon. It's near a guide dog school.
Wow, someone needs to make a mock-up of a "STUPID KIDS" sign.
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
Wow, someone needs to make a mock-up of a "STUPID KIDS" sign.
Google's contribution to humanity: proving that nobody has any original thoughts anymore.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22stupid%20kids%22%20sign&tbm=isch
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 02, 2013, 02:14:39 PM
My reaction (as a deaf person) to "DEAF CHILD" signs: go ahead and paint a target on my back, why don't you.
"DEAF CHILD" etc. signs are not diagrammed in the MUTCD, though they are, at least in theory, covered under the general grant of permission to use word messages that are not explicitly shown in the MUTCD and do not have the same purpose as any other standard sign. However, they appear in many state signing manuals as an option. In practice I suspect most engineers use them to accommodate demands from concerned citizens who do not realize that these signs do not give drivers any meaningful information and instead call attention to the presence of a vulnerable (or potentially vulnerable) person in the neighborhood.
I've always assumed the intended logic is "honking won't work to get that kid standing in the street out of your way". But you're right of course; that's not additional or helpful information, since
any person who doesn't get out of your way due to a honking, you still have an obligation not to mow down. Hearing people ignore honks as routinely as anyone, so I don't know how driver expectation is altered knowing that someone is deaf.
Quote from: empirestate on May 03, 2013, 11:42:47 AM
I've always assumed the intended logic is "honking won't work to get that kid standing in the street out of your way". But you're right of course; that's not additional or helpful information, since any person who doesn't get out of your way due to a honking, you still have an obligation not to mow down. Hearing people ignore honks as routinely as anyone, so I don't know how driver expectation is altered knowing that someone is deaf.
if you honk at me, I will just flip you off and not alter my course otherwise.
honking is the equivalent of going up to someone's face and giving a Beavis and Butthead "uhhhh... durrrrr..." it conveys no information, and simply identifies you as a douchebag.
Well, the horn is needed for people who remain stopped at a light that's turned green, but are intently looking at their phone. Unfortunately, I'm using it a bit more than before (and I even wait 5-6 seconds before honking).
I don't think I've even pressed on a horn button for more a half-second; anymore than that is either being a bigger douchebag, slumped over the steering wheel, or suffering from horn/steering wheel pad failure.
Quote from: empirestate on May 03, 2013, 11:42:47 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 02, 2013, 02:14:39 PM
My reaction (as a deaf person) to "DEAF CHILD" signs: go ahead and paint a target on my back, why don't you.
"DEAF CHILD" etc. signs are not diagrammed in the MUTCD, though they are, at least in theory, covered under the general grant of permission to use word messages that are not explicitly shown in the MUTCD and do not have the same purpose as any other standard sign. However, they appear in many state signing manuals as an option. In practice I suspect most engineers use them to accommodate demands from concerned citizens who do not realize that these signs do not give drivers any meaningful information and instead call attention to the presence of a vulnerable (or potentially vulnerable) person in the neighborhood.
I've always assumed the intended logic is "honking won't work to get that kid standing in the street out of your way". But you're right of course; that's not additional or helpful information, since any person who doesn't get out of your way due to a honking, you still have an obligation not to mow down. Hearing people ignore honks as routinely as anyone, so I don't know how driver expectation is altered knowing that someone is deaf.
I'll take the risk that this sounds like a lecture, but the reasoning that seems obvious to me apparently isn't obvious to others.
It's easy for hearing drivers to assume that a child will hear a car approaching or that companions will warn the child.
The reason for the "deaf child" sign is to warn you that the behavior of the child you see playing in his yard may not be what hearing people would expect, because the child can't hear the normal sounds of your car approaching that would warn a hearing child not to dart into the road. If he isn't looking at a playmate or caregiver, he won't hear their warning.
Of course no child, hearing or not, should dart into the street, but children do. That's why responsible adults look out for them.
Quote from: NE2 on May 02, 2013, 09:12:47 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
Wow, someone needs to make a mock-up of a "STUPID KIDS" sign.
Google's contribution to humanity: proving that nobody has any original thoughts anymore.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22stupid%20kids%22%20sign&tbm=isch
You are a wise, yet colorful goat.
Quote from: formulanone on May 03, 2013, 12:33:32 PM
Well, the horn is needed for people who remain stopped at a light that's turned green, but are intently looking at their phone. Unfortunately, I'm using it a bit more than before (and I even wait 5-6 seconds before honking).
I don't think I've even pressed on a horn button for more a half-second; anymore than that is either being a bigger douchebag, slumped over the steering wheel, or suffering from horn/steering wheel pad failure.
I'll beep the horn gently when the phone user doesn't move, but if that doesn't work I will absolutely give a longer blast. Some of the hardcore phone users are unaware you're honking at them–a woman illegally talking on a handheld phone backed into my car a few years ago despite my frenzied honking, for example. Dumb bitch then didn't even want to hang up to talk to me about it.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 03, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: empirestate on May 03, 2013, 11:42:47 AM
I've always assumed the intended logic is "honking won't work to get that kid standing in the street out of your way". But you're right of course; that's not additional or helpful information, since any person who doesn't get out of your way due to a honking, you still have an obligation not to mow down. Hearing people ignore honks as routinely as anyone, so I don't know how driver expectation is altered knowing that someone is deaf.
if you honk at me, I will just flip you off and not alter my course otherwise.
honking is the equivalent of going up to someone's face and giving a Beavis and Butthead "uhhhh... durrrrr..." it conveys no information, and simply identifies you as a douchebag.
You're not seriously saying that if someone honks at you because you started to change lanes when a car is next to you (note, I'm not saying you'd do that on purpose, but everyone makes mistakes at some point) you'd give him the finger and force your way over anyway, are you? There are perfectly legitimate reasons for honking the horn and even a loud sustained blast may be quite appropriate depending on the circumstances.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 03, 2013, 02:54:59 PM
You're not seriously saying that if someone honks at you because you started to change lanes when a car is next to you (note, I'm not saying you'd do that on purpose, but everyone makes mistakes at some point) you'd give him the finger and force your way over anyway, are you? There are perfectly legitimate reasons for honking the horn and even a loud sustained blast may be quite appropriate depending on the circumstances.
no, but I actually don't see the horn being used all that often around here for that purpose. here, the horn seems to be a device of aggression when you already know that you are bigger than your target - namely, telling a pedestrian "I'm on four wheels; get the fuck out of my way."
usually it's people making a left turn when I am crossing the street parallel to their original direction - I will stop in front of the car and give them the finger because, hey, you do not have the right to run me over, shithead.
I'm from Jersey. A three-second horn blast means "it's green and you didn't immediately go," "you're drifting into my lane," "you're making an illegal move that I'm too chicken to make," "I hate alternate feed, I want to go first." A ten-second horn blast (which I have in fact done) means "you are about to hit me and you have not corrected course after a three-second blast," "you are weaving drunkenly everywhere," "you almost hit 5 people and yet you can't put down the phone," "oh hey, best friend, let's pretend we're super pissed so people around us are unnerved."
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2013, 04:54:59 PM
I'm from Jersey. A three-second horn blast means
"I like loud noises", generally speaking.
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2013, 04:54:59 PM
I'm from Jersey. A three-second horn blast means "it's green and you didn't immediately go," "you're drifting into my lane," "you're making an illegal move that I'm too chicken to make," "I hate alternate feed, I want to go first." A ten-second horn blast (which I have in fact done) means "you are about to hit me and you have not corrected course after a three-second blast," "you are weaving drunkenly everywhere," "you almost hit 5 people and yet you can't put down the phone," "oh hey, best friend, let's pretend we're super pissed so people around us are unnerved."
Damn, you'd do just fine in Chicago and Detroit. :-D
I've used my horn to get people to move on green (OK, I give them a quarter second first), to warn them that they are encroaching on my lane (I really don't like head-on collisions or sideswipes), and on people who run red lights (pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorists). It's a most useful automotive tool.
15 years ago, Detroit was the city with the highest level of non-compliance related to traffic laws anywhere in the US.
At the time I was driving a truck in all 48 states, and constantly saw such blatant disregard it was in a league of its' own.
Lately, Houston is a city where your defensive driving skills must be razor sharp. Like being at a bumper car track. Evasive maneuvers are required daily, at least.
Quote from: djsinco on May 03, 2013, 05:52:17 PM
15 years ago, Detroit was the city with the highest level of non-compliance related to traffic laws anywhere in the US.
At the time I was driving a truck in all 48 states, and constantly saw such blatant disregard it was in a league of its' own.
Lately, Houston is a city where your defensive driving skills must be razor sharp. Like being at a bumper car track. Evasive maneuvers are required daily, at least.
Hey now, it's not like the traffic laws really mean anything. They're like the pirate code, more like a suggestion, especially that pesky thing called a "speed limit". :spin:
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 03, 2013, 02:54:59 PM
You're not seriously saying that if someone honks at you because you started to change lanes when a car is next to you (note, I'm not saying you'd do that on purpose, but everyone makes mistakes at some point) you'd give him the finger and force your way over anyway, are you? There are perfectly legitimate reasons for honking the horn and even a loud sustained blast may be quite appropriate depending on the circumstances.
I find that, in situations where a collisions is quite imminent–especially at high speeds–I am quite unlikely to use my horn. I end up using all my mental faculties to
avoid the other vehicle–which means both hands on the wheel, eyes focused on the other vehicle, peripheral vision acutely aware of my surroundings (curbs, other cars, etc.), and nothing left to actually reach for the horn.
A real man will toot the horn with his "tooter."
I find myself driving often with one hand on the wheel, and one hand hovering over the horn, waiting for that guy/gal to do what it looks like they're going to do, which either is going to delay my trip or alternate my trip to include a ride on a tow truck.
Quote from: theline on May 03, 2013, 02:14:15 PMQuote from: empirestate on May 03, 2013, 11:42:47 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on May 02, 2013, 02:14:39 PMMy reaction (as a deaf person) to "DEAF CHILD" signs: go ahead and paint a target on my back, why don't you.
"DEAF CHILD" etc. signs are not diagrammed in the MUTCD, though they are, at least in theory, covered under the general grant of permission to use word messages that are not explicitly shown in the MUTCD and do not have the same purpose as any other standard sign. However, they appear in many state signing manuals as an option. In practice I suspect most engineers use them to accommodate demands from concerned citizens who do not realize that these signs do not give drivers any meaningful information and instead call attention to the presence of a vulnerable (or potentially vulnerable) person in the neighborhood.
I've always assumed the intended logic is "honking won't work to get that kid standing in the street out of your way". But you're right of course; that's not additional or helpful information, since any person who doesn't get out of your way due to a honking, you still have an obligation not to mow down. Hearing people ignore honks as routinely as anyone, so I don't know how driver expectation is altered knowing that someone is deaf.
I'll take the risk that this sounds like a lecture, but the reasoning that seems obvious to me apparently isn't obvious to others.
It's easy for hearing drivers to assume that a child will hear a car approaching or that companions will warn the child.
The reason for the "deaf child" sign is to warn you that the behavior of the child you see playing in his yard may not be what hearing people would expect, because the child can't hear the normal sounds of your car approaching that would warn a hearing child not to dart into the road. If he isn't looking at a playmate or caregiver, he won't hear their warning.
This reasoning assumes that hearing children hear a car and draw the conclusion, "Must not go into the street," which is generally true only for older children (whether deaf or hearing). Plus, as Empirestate points out, plenty of hearing people hear sounds which are intended to warn them and fail to register them as applying to themselves personally. It is almost an aural version of the "looked, didn't see" syndrome. This is why many people never use their horns even to warn, and why many cyclists (myself included) never use bicycle bells.
A big part of defensive driving is choosing the most pessimistic of several possible assumptions about the behavior of other drivers or road users that can be made in any given situation. This is why you don't assume a "DEAF CHILD AREA" sign gives you useful information--you just look at very young children, whether hearing or not, and assume that they will act like they are deaf and have never been taught to stay behind the curb line except when adults are present. If you see an adult with the kids, you assume that supervision has lapsed. If you see a ball, you always assume it will bounce out into the street. If you know your neighbors have very young children or grandchildren, you walk around your car before you get in to make sure you don't back over them. Etc.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 14, 2013, 05:24:02 PM
This is why ... many cyclists (myself included) never use bicycle bells.
I have a bicycle bell, but I rarely use it. It has come in handy, for example, when cycling on what amounts to a sidewalk through a large park, about to overtake people walking. What I find, actually, is that sometimes a person hears the bell, then moves in the opposite direction I was anticipating–sort of like when a rabbit darts across the highway directly
into your path. Without ringing the bell at all, I run the risk of clipping someone's elbow, but I'm unlikely to bowl them completely over. I don't know, it's been a toss up for me.
Snapped this one earlier today. In context, it isn't cryptic at all.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1092.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi410%2Fkphoger%2Findianpt_zps5c4fd94e.jpg&hash=5ca6323058b618d78cd4900ec956a5cce9248fa7)
Quote from: kphoger on May 26, 2013, 07:39:07 PM
Snapped this one earlier today. In context, it isn't cryptic at all.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1092.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi410%2Fkphoger%2Findianpt_zps5c4fd94e.jpg&hash=5ca6323058b618d78cd4900ec956a5cce9248fa7)
the context being this, if you pan left...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-files.gather.com%2Fimages%2Fd598%2Fd383%2Fd744%2Fd224%2Fd96%2Ff3%2Ffull.jpg&hash=20397b4c9ecae2a85eb459587a2df6601b73abb9)
Maybe it's regulatory. It is white on black, after all. So maybe one is compelled to point like that at some location over the crest of the hill.
Except the Indian is pointing left, not ahead.
ahead relative to the sign.
Quote from: Big John on May 26, 2013, 09:13:27 PM
Except the Indian is pointing left, not ahead.
Depending which way the statue is facing. If that is the road to the left, then he's pointing down the hill. And you must go that direction.
OK, now for the real answer...
It's just after a fork in the road, heading to Indian Point (http://goo.gl/maps/Qt4qS).
Driving up the I-93 Northbound tunnel last evening I saw the following VMS message, followed by a second one:
CAUTION -- DMV AHEAD
This was puzzling, because a) we call it the RMV here, b) MassDOT never seemed concerned about us knowing the dangers of the RMV (though they should), and c) there's no branch on 93.
I finally realized this must mean "disabled motor vehicle," but it's a lousy way to put it, particularly using an abbreviation already commonly understood to mean something else.
Then I remembered this is the agency that periodically displays a VMS in Charlton with the phrase, "I/C 9" on it, which every passing motorist of course understands to mean Interchange 9 (not really).
It amazes me how arcane they make messages intended to communicatewith the masses. It's like using "BGS" on there.
Any other examples out there of signs with terms/abbreviations destined to communicate ... nothing at all to the motorist viewer?
There's one in Conway, AR that says
Univ. Cent. Ark.
Exit 129
Couldn't we have completed at least ONE word?!?
T-4, T-5 (http://maps.google.com/?ll=45.581518,-122.678479&spn=0.000015,0.016512&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.581705,-122.678486&panoid=mkpdx8g9RW4jQInAoVuogg&cbp=12,354.66,,0,-7.78)
(The sign refers to the Port of Portland's Terminal 4 and Terminal 5)
T-6 (http://maps.google.com/?ll=45.590564,-122.681946&spn=0.000015,0.016512&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.590564,-122.681946&panoid=oU0PqcSTWiuGp9gwOBXsKQ&cbp=12,344.11,,0,-2.4)
(Port of Portland Terminal 6.)
TV Highway (http://maps.google.com/?ll=45.492299,-122.852125&spn=0.00003,0.033023&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=45.492243,-122.851641&panoid=OUj7NRGL4_Czo7SESfvGIA&cbp=12,327.72,,0,-5.79)
(All the locals know that "TV" is short for "Tualatin Valley" but the non-locals probably have no clue what "TV" means.)
Beav-Hlsdl Hwy (http://maps.google.com/?ll=45.486526,-122.800315&spn=0.000015,0.016512&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.486526,-122.800315&panoid=hkCQUP6YqvPDIi7yPa6OUA&cbp=12,226.12,,0,-11.7)
(Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway)
I've seen a few street signs that abbreviate "Turnpike" as "Trnpk" ("Little River Trnpk"). I always think, "why bother at all if that's how you want to abbreviate it"? (Most of the local street signs use "Tpke" and most of the local BGSs use "Tnpk.")
How about "Gd" for Grand in Grand Rapids, MI. I think they could have used "Gr" instead.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2013, 08:54:05 AM
How about "Gd" for Grand in Grand Rapids, MI. I think they could have used "Gr" instead.
As stated in another thread, "Gd" is standard in Michigan for "Grand". "Gr" would be for "Great".
Gd River Ave
Gd Rapids
Gd Ledge
Gd Haven
etc.
Colo Sprgs (Colorado Springs). They should have at least spelled out springs.
Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2013, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2013, 08:54:05 AM
How about "Gd" for Grand in Grand Rapids, MI. I think they could have used "Gr" instead.
As stated in another thread, "Gd" is standard in Michigan for "Grand". "Gr" would be for "Great".
Gd River Ave
Gd Rapids
Gd Ledge
Gd Haven
etc.
If I had not seen that information on this forum, I'd probably assume it stood for "Good" unless I made the "Grand Rapids" connection.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2013, 04:03:56 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2013, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2013, 08:54:05 AM
How about "Gd" for Grand in Grand Rapids, MI. I think they could have used "Gr" instead.
As stated in another thread, "Gd" is standard in Michigan for "Grand". "Gr" would be for "Great".
Gd River Ave
Gd Rapids
Gd Ledge
Gd Haven
etc.
If I had not seen that information on this forum, I'd probably assume it stood for "Good" unless I made the "Grand Rapids" connection.
At least it is consistent. I'd rather a DOT use a consistent abbreviation that one can figure out from seeing it a number of times than inconsistently use abbreviations.
A handful of Saw Mill and Taconic signs read "S M P" or "T S P" with nothing else in the shield.
Quote from: ChoralScholar on June 26, 2013, 11:24:41 PM
There's one in Conway, AR that says
Univ. Cent. Ark.
Exit 129
Couldn't we have completed at least ONE word?!?
Similarly: "Ok. Dept. of Agric." for I-35 exit 104.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2013, 08:54:05 AM
How about "Gd" for Grand in Grand Rapids, MI. I think they could have used "Gr" instead.
I always saw GD, and the first thing I thought of was from a sketch from "The Hour Has 22 Minutes", and it means "God Damn". (GD Clicker Box = Remote Control).
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2013, 04:03:56 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2013, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2013, 08:54:05 AM
How about "Gd" for Grand in Grand Rapids, MI. I think they could have used "Gr" instead.
As stated in another thread, "Gd" is standard in Michigan for "Grand". "Gr" would be for "Great".
Gd River Ave
Gd Rapids
Gd Ledge
Gd Haven
etc.
If I had not seen that information on this forum, I'd probably assume it stood for "Good" unless I made the "Grand Rapids" connection.
The word "good" is writtten as "gd" in Grade 2 (the most common form of) Braille. Anyway, be glad MDOT didn't standardize on "Gr&".
I'm not sure if this would qualify, but: DR MLK JR DR in Greenville, MS
On the exit ramps from I-140 to I-40 East, there are small green signs which say UNCW with an arrow.
(University of North Carolina-Wilmington)
Quote from: Steve on June 27, 2013, 07:02:39 PM
A handful of Saw Mill and Taconic signs read "S M P" or "T S P" with nothing else in the shield.
Ah yes, the ever popular Teaspoon Parkway.
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2013, 08:43:29 PM
I have a bicycle bell, but I rarely use it. It has come in handy, for example, when cycling on what amounts to a sidewalk through a large park, about to overtake people walking. What I find, actually, is that sometimes a person hears the bell, then moves in the opposite direction I was anticipating–sort of like when a rabbit darts across the highway directly into your path. Without ringing the bell at all, I run the risk of clipping someone's elbow, but I'm unlikely to bowl them completely over. I don't know, it's been a toss up for me.
I think a bell has a similar problem to the emergency vehicle siren, you look around figuring out where it's coming from and where to go, so much so that you risk a collision. My fiancee and I were walking through a park (on a mixed-used path) and I heard someone say "on your left" behind me. That was significantly more useful than a damn bell, as it tells me, hey, there's someone I need to watch for on my left. Doesn't help if you can't figure out your left from your right quickly, though... Of course that doesn't help at all if you're someone who likes to drown out the world with music when you're walking, but at that point, I figure it's your own damn fault. It's one of the reasons I can never listen to music when I walk... I'm too paranoid that I'll get mowed down by a car or bike.
Quote from: US71 on June 28, 2013, 07:43:59 AM
I'm not sure if this would qualify, but: DR MLK JR DR in Greenville, MS
DERP MILK JERR DERRRRRRR
Quote from: Steve on July 01, 2013, 08:04:35 PM
Quote from: US71 on June 28, 2013, 07:43:59 AM
I'm not sure if this would qualify, but: DR MLK JR DR in Greenville, MS
DERP MILK JERR DERRRRRRR
When Wilmington, Delaware changed Wilmington Blvd. to you-know-what, the new street signs said "M.L. King Jr. Blvd." People complained, saying "M.L King Jr. could be anybody."
Quote from: Steve on July 01, 2013, 08:04:35 PM
Quote from: US71 on June 28, 2013, 07:43:59 AM
I'm not sure if this would qualify, but: DR MLK JR DR in Greenville, MS
DERP MILK JERR DERRRRRRR
Last week's Futurama revealed Lrrr (ruler of Omicron Persei 8!) has a son named Jrrr. And there was a veterinarian on that planet named Drrr.
I'm still trying to figure out how to obey or disobey the "DO NOT PASS" signs that Kansas puts up at the beginning of road construction zones–when they're on an elevated, divided freeway.
Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2013, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2013, 08:54:05 AM
How about "Gd" for Grand in Grand Rapids, MI. I think they could have used "Gr" instead.
As stated in another thread, "Gd" is standard in Michigan for "Grand". "Gr" would be for "Great".
I've only seen "Gt" for Great.
^^ Wrong. Anyone who's been to Alanland knows that "Gt" always stands for "Goat." (I couldn't help myself.)
Quote from: theline on July 04, 2013, 08:37:29 PM
^^ Wrong. Anyone who's been to Alanland knows that "Gt" always stands for "Goat." (I couldn't help myself.)
Well, having never been there myself, it is in fact not wrong that I've only seen it mean "Great". :-P
Okla. Dept. of Transp.
Pott. Co.
Maint. Hdqrs.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2013, 02:37:38 PM
Maint. Hdqrs.
I've only seen headquarters abbreviated as "HQ". Everything else looks ugly.
I knew I'd seen HDQRS somewhere before.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpsroads.net%2Froads%2Fut%2Fus_89%2Fudot.jpg&hash=cbeb16174a08c0656747f43fdca5e58c969138f6) (http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ut/us_89/)
(Note that one is a DOT district HQ and the other a Highway Patrol district office; different agencies so different district boundaries?)
Locally, I thought of a "HQ" sign right away. (http://goo.gl/maps/IxWmf) Not sure if the sign will survive or be changed with the new Goodyear global headquarters moving to a nearby location served by the second exit, not the next one.
I am pretty sure there's a sign near my house that uses "HDQT." I'll keep my eyes peeled on Monday.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2013, 02:37:38 PM
Okla. Dept. of Transp.
Pott. Co.
Maint. Hdqrs.
That's cryptic? My guess would be "Oklahoma Department of Transportation/Pottawatomie County/Maintenance Headquarters" (if I spelled all those right).
Quote from: kphoger on July 08, 2013, 10:24:06 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2013, 02:37:38 PM
Okla. Dept. of Transp.
Pott. Co.
Maint. Hdqrs.
That's cryptic? My guess would be "Oklahoma Department of Transportation/Pottawatomie County/Maintenance Headquarters" (if I spelled all those right).
Bingo. Not especially cryptic, but having that many abbreviations on one sign is rather sucky.
Quote from: US71 on June 28, 2013, 07:43:59 AM
I'm not sure if this would qualify, but: DR MLK JR DR in Greenville, MS
When I was a kid (young, under 10), I always thought this sign (link) (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.605662,-122.682395&spn=0.016483,0.039997&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=45.605878,-122.682311&panoid=k_ezsncPvzMbuAjPbnb3_Q&cbp=12,197.96,,1,-7.05), "MLK Jr Blvd" in Portland was pronounced "Milk Jar Boulevard". When you're young enough to not know who MLK is, it makes sense.
Quote from: doorknob60 on July 12, 2013, 02:16:22 AM
When I was a kid (young, under 10), I always thought this sign (link) (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.605662,-122.682395&spn=0.016483,0.039997&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=45.605878,-122.682311&panoid=k_ezsncPvzMbuAjPbnb3_Q&cbp=12,197.96,,1,-7.05), "MLK Jr Blvd" in Portland was pronounced "Milk Jar Boulevard". When you're young enough to not know who MLK is, it makes sense.
I distinctly remember asking my kindergarten teacher why he didn't wear a crown.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2013, 06:44:05 PM
These parking signs are all over downtown DC. Lots of people get tickets because they don't understand the message. I'm interested in hearing you folks' interpretations. I know what the sign is intended to mean, but I don't think it conveys it well at all.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F0DEF1629-D76A-49F6-A080-741646860996-12169-00000A6DED92A70D_zps9be20386.jpg&hash=f2bd2b0eaa74e10def441057fdf1ee7d5cf437c4)
Thread bumped because this morning WTOP radio reports the signs shown above are going to be replaced (http://www.wtop.com/1319/3722166/Signs-replaced-after-thousands-ticketed) due to rampant confusion as to what they mean. Lots of people have been ticketed for assuming you need not pay the meter after 6:30.
New style sign shown on the left, current style on the right:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wtop.com%2Femedia%2Fwtop%2F36%2F3644%2F364437.jpg&hash=56a2ea65ad98b733d0bf81bf555c71992a596759)
And given the signs, it seems that one can park from 4:30 to 10 pm, without limitation, so long as you pay the meter for the time you use.
What happens after 10p? Free parking?
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 24, 2014, 03:48:27 AM
What happens after 10p? Free parking?
And unlimited timed parking.
I believe the clearest way to get the message across would be as follows:
(2) HOUR LIMIT
PARKING
7 AM - 6:30 PM
MON - SAT
PAY TO PARK
-------------------------
(U)NLIMITED TIME
PARKING
6:30 PM - 10 PM
MON - SAT
PAY TO PARK
To me, the most important part is that both signs mention the need to pay to park. This is especially important on streets that use the modern pay and display system and don't have meters at every spot.
Then again, the sign saying 3 1/2 Hour Parking is reminiscent of signs that say 12 Hour Parking 7 AM - 7 PM. The only reason there's a sign at all is to inform you of the need to pay during those times, but if you do pay, you can stay as long as you want.
The thing about DC is that sometimes there is no consistency in the signage. I remember that about the time they were starting to charge for parking after 6:30 PM, I had met my family for dinner at a restaurant downtown. The meters had stickers mentioning parking until 10 pm, but the signs had only said till 6:30 PM. Did we have to pay for parking or not? Who knows.
And don't get me started on the new handicapped only meters. On many Downtown blocks the only parking meter you see is at a low height and is reserved for the disabled. In order to combat disabled placard abuse, DC is requiring all disabled to pay for parking on streets that are metered. Yet, to comply with federal requirements, the special meters are low enough that they could be reached with a wheelchair and allow "double time". Hence, if there is a 2 hour limit on the street, a disabled driver can pay for 4 hours at the special meter.
Yet, there is some confusion as to whether these are in force yet. And furthermore, I'm not aware if the spot is reserved for disabled during hours when meters are not in operation (like nights and Sundays). No clear answers.
Quote from: mrsman on October 24, 2014, 02:20:06 PM
....
The thing about DC is that sometimes there is no consistency in the signage. I remember that about the time they were starting to charge for parking after 6:30 PM, I had met my family for dinner at a restaurant downtown. The meters had stickers mentioning parking until 10 pm, but the signs had only said till 6:30 PM. Did we have to pay for parking or not? Who knows.
....
Best rule of thumb: Follow whichever sign is the most restrictive. In the situation you describe, pay so as to protect yourself, even if you think it may be unnecessary. The amount you lose if you pay when you don't need to do so will still be less than the amount you'll have to pay if you get a parking ticket. I follow that rule whenever I think signs might be inconsistent or otherwise confusing.
This lovely combo is at my old middle school here in Huntsville:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3954/15464858248_935f2ea363.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pyzrz3)
Handicapped people can and can't park here (https://flic.kr/p/pyzrz3) by freebrickproductions (https://www.flickr.com/people/96431468@N06/), on Flickr
The "No Parking" sign should say "in front of sign" on it because there's a handicapped parking zone underneath the awning in front of the school. The way it's set-up now makes it seem rather confusing.
In Philadelphia, metered parking signs of the type above often end with "Except Sunday". To those not familiar with the sign it is almost impossible to figure out what exactly Sundays exempt you from. In fact, you don't have to pay at all and there are no restrictions. It is even harder to figure this out with the old-style coin operated meters because it doesn't say "pay to park" anywhere on the sign.
Saw this on Tumblr today:
(https://38.media.tumblr.com/019f403ed86981843292341f67384996/tumblr_ng4lhkC7qr1rlpicfo1_1280.jpg)
No bikes are allowed on the bike route I guess...
If you can't bike or take your dog to the park, what on earth are you supposed to do there?
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2014, 08:40:29 PM
If you can't bike or take your dog to the park, what on earth are you supposed to do there?
Park (in designated lots).
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2014, 08:40:29 PM
If you can't bike or take your dog to the park, what on earth are you supposed to do there?
It doesn't prohibit smoking....
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 06, 2014, 10:14:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2014, 08:40:29 PM
If you can't bike or take your dog to the park, what on earth are you supposed to do there?
It doesn't prohibit smoking....
You have to light up before you enter the park though.
Quote from: NE2 on December 06, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2014, 08:40:29 PM
If you can't bike or take your dog to the park, what on earth are you supposed to do there?
Park (in designated lots).
Unless you're driving a motor vehicle.