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What cycle do you like?

original HAWK
modified HAWK
what is a HAWK signal?
I like RYG ped signals.

Author Topic: HAWK Thread  (Read 36419 times)

kalvado

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #325 on: March 17, 2023, 08:14:29 AM »

And that is a recommendation (should), not a standard (shall). But it is genuinely puzzling to me why so many traffic agencies ignore that recommendation and install them AT such intersections.

I assume it's because, in general, more people cross a road where there's a cross-street than where there isn't one.

Exactly, and it's why (IMO) it's an idiotic recommendation. Very few pedestrians are likely to detour mid-block towards a HAWK unless they ultimately have to go that way.

I would much rather the HAWK design were modified to be placed more effectively at intersections rather than attempting to prohibit it altogether. And/or the MUTCD being less mental about half-signals.
I would consider hawk as a niche solution for midblock. There are long blocks, plazas - possibly with associated bus stop, etc.
Intersections have too much going on
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SignBridge

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #326 on: March 18, 2023, 07:57:55 PM »

I will guess that the reason FHWA discourages HAWK's at intersections is because the existence of that signal plus a stop sign coming out of the cross street might be potentially confusing to drivers who are used to intersections being controlled by signs OR signals, but usually not both.   
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PurdueBill

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #327 on: March 18, 2023, 11:32:23 PM »

I will guess that the reason FHWA discourages HAWK's at intersections is because the existence of that signal plus a stop sign coming out of the cross street might be potentially confusing to drivers who are used to intersections being controlled by signs OR signals, but usually not both.   

I wonder on the Kansas example of an intersection HAWK when the blank-out No Right Turn sign turns off.  One would assume it's on during the steady red light, but does it turn off during the flashing red?  If not, that's a lot of sitting to wait.  (One would think it must only light during the steady red, but the cynic in me thinks it may do otherwise.)
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US 89

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #328 on: March 19, 2023, 01:54:26 AM »

I will guess that the reason FHWA discourages HAWK's at intersections is because the existence of that signal plus a stop sign coming out of the cross street might be potentially confusing to drivers who are used to intersections being controlled by signs OR signals, but usually not both.

Exactly my thought. The real issue is you don’t want to create an intersection where some approaches are signalized and others are not. If I’m turning at a stop sign where cross traffic has the right of way but is stopped by a HAWK…can I go if it’s clear of peds? Or worse, what if I see cross traffic at a stop, I assume they’re being held by a double red, but it’s actually a flashing red and they proceed onwards into me? Seems like a great way to get a lot of near misses and low speed collisions.

Troubleshooter

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #329 on: March 19, 2023, 09:15:15 PM »

And that is a recommendation (should), not a standard (shall). But it is genuinely puzzling to me why so many traffic agencies ignore that recommendation and install them AT such intersections.

I assume it's because, in general, more people cross a road where there's a cross-street than where there isn't one.

Exactly, and it's why (IMO) it's an idiotic recommendation. Very few pedestrians are likely to detour mid-block towards a HAWK unless they ultimately have to go that way.

I would much rather the HAWK design were modified to be placed more effectively at intersections rather than attempting to prohibit it altogether. And/or the MUTCD being less mental about half-signals.

If there is an intersection, a regular traffic signal is supposed to be used instead of a HAWK.

Half signals are just plain wrong. They confuse side road drivers.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 09:18:10 PM by Troubleshooter »
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Hobart

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #330 on: March 20, 2023, 12:41:43 AM »

And that is a recommendation (should), not a standard (shall). But it is genuinely puzzling to me why so many traffic agencies ignore that recommendation and install them AT such intersections.

I assume it's because, in general, more people cross a road where there's a cross-street than where there isn't one.

Exactly, and it's why (IMO) it's an idiotic recommendation. Very few pedestrians are likely to detour mid-block towards a HAWK unless they ultimately have to go that way.

I would much rather the HAWK design were modified to be placed more effectively at intersections rather than attempting to prohibit it altogether. And/or the MUTCD being less mental about half-signals.

If there is an intersection, a regular traffic signal is supposed to be used instead of a HAWK.

Half signals are just plain wrong. They confuse side road drivers.

I feel like half signals can be executed well if the thru direction is shown flashing yellow by default, which changes to red, then flashing red, if a pedestrian activates the crosswalk. You'd need a couple "stop here on flashing red" signs on either side of the half-signaled intersection.

If you're worried about the cross street, additional heads can be installed to stop cross-street traffic as you see fit.

Half signals get a bad rap, not because they're a bad idea, but because they're executed wrong.

I also think the HAWK is redundant; just use a standard RYG signal, where red turns to flashing red before turning green (or flashing yellow at half-signaled intersections). It held up fire station entrances for years, what's the issue with using it for crosswalks?
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kphoger

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #331 on: March 20, 2023, 10:57:04 AM »

If I’m turning at a stop sign where cross traffic has the right of way but is stopped by a HAWK…can I go if it’s clear of peds?

Yes.  You're not facing the signal beacon, therefore it does not apply to you.  Yield to pedestrians, proceed to turn.

Or worse, what if I see cross traffic at a stop, I assume they’re being held by a double red, but it’s actually a flashing red and they proceed onwards into me? Seems like a great way to get a lot of near misses and low speed collisions.

Just like any four-way stop.  The other person might start going at the same time as you.  This happens all the time.  No big deal.
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kalvado

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #332 on: March 20, 2023, 11:28:49 AM »

If I’m turning at a stop sign where cross traffic has the right of way but is stopped by a HAWK…can I go if it’s clear of peds?

Yes.  You're not facing the signal beacon, therefore it does not apply to you.  Yield to pedestrians, proceed to turn.

Or worse, what if I see cross traffic at a stop, I assume they’re being held by a double red, but it’s actually a flashing red and they proceed onwards into me? Seems like a great way to get a lot of near misses and low speed collisions.

Just like any four-way stop.  The other person might start going at the same time as you.  This happens all the time.  No big deal.
One reason STOP and YIELD signs have distinct shapes is to let drivers on other legs of intersection know what to expect. Again, beacon breaks that logic
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jakeroot

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #333 on: March 25, 2023, 11:52:05 PM »

And that is a recommendation (should), not a standard (shall). But it is genuinely puzzling to me why so many traffic agencies ignore that recommendation and install them AT such intersections.

I assume it's because, in general, more people cross a road where there's a cross-street than where there isn't one.

Exactly, and it's why (IMO) it's an idiotic recommendation. Very few pedestrians are likely to detour mid-block towards a HAWK unless they ultimately have to go that way.

I would much rather the HAWK design were modified to be placed more effectively at intersections rather than attempting to prohibit it altogether. And/or the MUTCD being less mental about half-signals.

If there is an intersection, a regular traffic signal is supposed to be used instead of a HAWK.

Half signals are just plain wrong. They confuse side road drivers.

To my knowledge, the HAWK was created specifically to be a beacon, and the warrants for beacons are much easier to meet, compared to full traffic signals.

Half signals are unique; don't mistake that for confusing. Drivers who do not drive in areas where they are common (such as Seattle) may find them unusual, but I shall imagine almost all drivers are able to work out what is happening within a few moments, and can successfully maneuver through them. The point, though, is to improve pedestrian safety, and I think half signals in this way have actually proven to be very successful in reducing pedestrian crashes. Don't look at them as being tools for helping drivers, but tools for helping pedestrians. They may be an oddity for drivers, but they are mostly to aid pedestrians.

 


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