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The Clearview thread

Started by BigMattFromTexas, August 03, 2009, 05:35:25 PM

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Which do you think is better: Highway Gothic or Clearview?

Highway Gothic
Clearview

WillWeaverRVA

Will Weaver
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"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2


BigMattFromTexas

First off this is highway related cause it's a HIGHWAY font!!
Anyways, has anyone else noticed that the alltel logo looks just like the Clearview font?
Well alltel is my cell service and so on my cell phone it has a picture of the logo, and it took me a while to figure it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alltel_logo.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clearview_font.svg
See the resemblance? I do!
BigMatt

Bryant5493

Yeah, that's Clearview alright.


Be well,

Bryant
Check out my YouTube page (http://youtube.com/Bryant5493). I have numerous road videos of Metro Atlanta and other areas in the Southeast.

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aswnl

Looks much more like DIN1451 to me.

agentsteel53

#54
it is indeed DIN1451 Mittelschrift (the wider of the two series). 

the "a" is distinctly different between Clearview and the Alltel logo.

(a tangential question - is there a wider DIN1451 family member than Mittelschrift?  Seeing as "mittel" is middle, and it's about the width of American Series D, and the US fonts go up to Series G.)
live from sunny San Diego.

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BigMattFromTexas

Quote from: aswnl on September 26, 2009, 06:50:08 PM
Looks much more like DIN1451 to me.
But the DIN1451 "e's" are different than the "e's" in the alltel logo.
BigMatt

Scott5114

There's a Series G? I've never seen anything wider than Series F.

AT&T's logo is not in Clearview, but all of their promotional material is set in Clearview. There is a variant of Clearview called ClearviewOne which is modified for print usage (the kerning, for example, is much tighter).
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

agentsteel53

there is A through G in the square fonts.  Of the round fonts, B through F match the widths of the old square fonts (and in fact, for some of the angular letters with no arcs in them, the letters remain exactly the same - H for example).  Round A is just a tad narrower than Round B, but Square A is about half the width of Square B.  You can (barely) see Square A here:




live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

agentsteel53

Quote from: BigMatt on September 26, 2009, 09:42:25 PM
But the DIN1451 "e's" are different than the "e's" in the alltel logo.
BigMatt

if there is a difference, I do not see it.  The difference between those two and Clearview's "e" is colossal, by contrast. 
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

J N Winkler

There is indeed a DIN typeface that is less condensed than Mittelschrift--I think it's called Breitschrift.  It is not used on German signing anymore but is quite popular in Hungary.  Some examples here:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=460510&page=109

The modern DIN typefaces are not precisely the same as those used during the Nazi period, and I think the typeface designs were "forked" before reunification, with both the BRD and DDR having their own versions, but I haven't really found a coherent account of German traffic sign typography yet.

For that matter, British traffic sign typefaces are Transport Medium and Transport Heavy.  A Transport Light was developed, and was briefly considered in the early 1960's for use with internally illuminated signs, but I am not aware that the glyphs still survive.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

agentsteel53

I believe I found a download for Breitschrift:

http://www.fontriver.com/font/din_1451_fette_breitschrift_1936/

the name makes sense.  "breit" is German for "broad".
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

BigMattFromTexas

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 26, 2009, 11:03:00 PM
Quote from: BigMatt on September 26, 2009, 09:42:25 PM
But the DIN1451 "e's" are different than the "e's" in the alltel logo.
BigMatt

if there is a difference, I do not see it.  The difference between those two and Clearview's "e" is colossal, by contrast. 
I didn't see the word after the DIN1451 at first( i don't know what it is off the top of my head) so there really isn't a diffenece
BigMatt

agentsteel53

Quote from: BigMatt on September 26, 2009, 11:58:13 PM

I didn't see the word after the DIN1451 at first( i don't know what it is off the top of my head) so there really isn't a diffenece
BigMatt

engschrift, mittelschrift, and breitschrift are the words.  They refer to different widths.  "schrift" is German for "script", and as we all know, German combines its adjectives with its nouns to produce single, compound, words.  I do not know what "eng" means but I would assume "narrow" or "thin", to go with "mittel" (medium) and "breit" (broad).  They are, respectively, a bit narrower than FHWA Series C, a bit narrower than D, and a bit wider than E.

Differences in E: in DIN 1451 Mittelschrift, the stroke width is identical all across the letter, while in Clearview, the round parts are a heavier stroke than the crossbar.  Also, the bottom end of the letter: mittelschrift has the letter end at about a 45 degree angle, while Clearview is only about 30 degrees away from the vertical.

that is the E.  the differences in the A are far more significant. 
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

J N Winkler

Historically it is fairly common to have traffic signing typefaces in multiple levels of condensation, and then to prune down the levels of condensation that are actually used on traffic signs.  Germany (dumping Breitschrift) and the US (dumping rounded Series A) are far from alone in this respect.

Switzerland used to use the VSS-Schriften, which are available in at least three levels of condensation.  The VSS-Schriften are no longer used in Switzerland--they have been replaced with ASTRA-Frutiger, at just one level of condensation--but they live on in Belgium and Bulgaria.

In France there are currently four typefaces in use, L1 through L4.  L1 and L2 are essentially the same sans-serif typeface, with different stroke widths to accommodate positive and negative contrast.  The same is true of L3 and L4, both of which are derived from an italic humanist typeface very similar (if not identical) to the one Adrian Frutiger developed for signs within Charles de Gaulle airport.  There is not much variation in condensation between L1/L2 and L3/L4, so now when the French want to de-emphasize the length contrast between a short placename (like PARIS) and a long one (like ARROMANCHES), the increase the intercharacter spacing (125% default, I've seen up to 200%) in the short placename or reduce it in the long one (I've seen down to 50%).

But these are the modern L1-L4 typefaces.  Until the early 1980's, the French used a different ensemble of three typefaces, and did not attempt to compensate for positive or negative contrast.  Old L1 had letterforms more or less identical to modern L1/L2; old L2 was a more condensed (thinner) version of old L1; and old L3 was an italic roman typeface.  You can still see examples of old L3 on flag signs in major cities and on some really old autoroute signs.  Also, Spain used the old French L1 and L2 typefaces until 1992 when, in its own traffic signing reform, it went to Autopista (essentially a modification of FHWA Series E Modified) and Carretera Convencional (similar to Transport Heavy but with an even heavier stroke and the letterforms modified to have the same 4:3 ratio between uppercase letter height and lowercase loop height, which Autopista carried over from Series E Modified).

Mexico has its own alphabet series, at multiple levels of condensation, for traffic signs.  Letterform drawings are in the Manual de Dispositivos para el Control del Tránsito en Calles y Carreteras, but in comparison to the FHWA series, the series designators are numbers rather than letters and count up (rather than down) with increasing levels of condensation, SCT Series 0 (somewhat similar to FHWA Series F) being the least condensed.  Many of the letterforms are very similar to, but not identical to, those of FHWA alphabet series at similar levels of condensation.  The most blatant differences are in R and P in the series (SCT Series 1-3) usually found on most Mexican direction signs, which have large droopy loops like R and P in old French L1/modern French L1 and L2.

In practice it is not nearly as routine to see signs using the correct typefaces in Mexico as it is in the US, however.  The impression I get is that there are just two or three major vendors of traffic signs in Mexico, one of which uses the actual SCT series, while another uses the FHWA alphabet series, and the third uses some kind of ugly Arial/Helvetica knockoff.  Mexican road agencies don't penalize these signing companies for using the wrong typefaces and, as a result, a wide assortment of typefaces can be found on Mexican roads.  I have even seen pictures of Mexican signs using Transport Heavy (!) in a SCT annual report.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

agentsteel53

in Mexico, even within prescribed fonts, there is great variety of implementation.  These two signs are intended to be various widths of the same font:

www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MX19830031t200030.jpg

www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MX19830012t200010.jpg

but they are very different - note how "Cuota" and "Libre" look almost nothing alike.

there is this font that shows up on occasion, which seems to be an Arial Black knockoff:

www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MX20020031t200030.jpg

here is a compressed Series D (instead of using the correct Series C) on this very old guide sign:

www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MX19600011t200030.jpg

and yes, here is that Arial knockoff, with something entirely else for LIBRE.  LIBRE looks good, but Arial should never, ever be used anywhere.

www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MX20020021t200020.jpg

every so often, this font shows up on route shields.  It appears to have been cut out from vinyl by hand, and casually resembles Massachusetts's font from a distance.

www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MX19770031t200030.jpg



I definitely prefer the classic font, of which the first two were examples.  I do not know its name, but it seems to be the oldest, and has a distinct character to it.  The FHWA knockoff isn't bad.

live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

J N Winkler

There is definitely huge variation in how Mexican signs look--I think--to the extensive use of stencils to cut the letters out of retroreflective sheeting.  Many letters are also "wonky" (at a slight angle to vertical), and the stroke width of small letters in shields (e.g. "MEXICO" in the federal route marker) is often uncertain.

In the case of the first two examples you posted URLs for, I think it is more a question of the correct lowercase typeface not being used on either sign.  One sign has "Cuota" with print a and is clearly incorrect for that reason alone.  The other is more nearly correct but still looks more like fixed-pitch Letter Gothic than the real thing.  (In Mexico the lowercase alphabet is a separate entity, like the FHWA lowercase alphabet used to be before all of the all-uppercase FHWA alphabet series got officially approved lowercase letters in 2004.  It is quite common for the lowercase alphabet, whose letters are rather fat, to be used with very thin uppercase letters.)

On Mex. 16, at a railroad crossing near Coyame in the middle of the desert, I ran across a "DISMINUYA SU VELOCIDAD" sign which had been done with the correct lettering, but was clearly hand-painted.  The retroreflectorization had been done by pouring white paint over the sign blank and then tossing glass beads on top.  The lettering was done, I think, by stencils after the white paint had dried with the glass beads fixed in place.  Also on Mex. 16 in Yécora, many hundreds of km west and just over the Sonora border, I found a number of km-posts (including shields) which were clearly hand-painted in black on white enclosed-lens retroreflective sheeting--done with considerable attention to detail, but with just enough waviness in the curved elements and enough thickness variation in the lettering to give it away as a hand job.

(BTW, one thing I found very hard to get used to in Mexico was having to stop at every railroad crossing.  In the US automatic gate control is so common we just don't think as we cross railroad tracks, but in Mexico it is all but unknown even on heavily used four-lane urban arterials.)
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

agentsteel53

the glass-bead technique is tried and true and goes back many years.  The US was playing around with it in the late 1920s, and Scotchlite is nothing more than glass beads, of a very small size, enclosed between two adhesive substrates. 
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

US71

It's sort of a moot point with Alltel since they are being absorbed by Verizon.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

BigMattFromTexas

It's still strange how a phone company uses a highway font. But i guess those font weren't made just for BGS's and other highway signs.

agentsteel53

Quote from: BigMatt on September 28, 2009, 07:32:50 PM
It's still strange how a phone company uses a highway font. But i guess those font weren't made just for BGS's and other highway signs.

it's designed to be good and legible.  Chevron, the gas station chain, uses Series E for their prices a lot of the time.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

BigMattFromTexas

I found a the closest thing to a Clearview font in the default fonts, it's called Gisha. And ive been using it on all my newer BGS's.
http://picasaweb.google.com/bigmatt30000/RandomPointlessStuff?feat=directlink
BigMatt

agentsteel53

that font is way too nice to be Clearview.

the real Clear is found here:

http://www.triskele.com/roadgeek-fonts

check Series 1B-6B and 1W-6W.  The B fonts are for dark text on a light background, and the W for the opposite.  The B fonts are a bit bolder to offset the effect of light colors being perceived to blur slightly outward.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

BigMattFromTexas

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 28, 2009, 08:23:36 PM
that font is way too nice to be Clearview.

the real Clear is found here:

http://www.triskele.com/roadgeek-fonts

check Series 1B-6B and 1W-6W.  The B fonts are for dark text on a light background, and the W for the opposite.  The B fonts are a bit bolder to offset the effect of light colors being perceived to blur slightly outward.
Thus is why i said the closest thing to Clearview :-o
BigMatt

Scott5114

Why would you want a fake Clearview when the real thing is available?  :hmmm:
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Ian

Why would you want clearview at all...  :pan:
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