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Worst control city on an interstate in your state

Started by SkyPesos, August 05, 2022, 06:07:17 PM

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Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 02:53:08 PM
Nope, I agree that most state flags suck.  I'm just saying it doesn't matter that they suck.

It may not matter that they suck, but having a flag that doesn't suck can certainly spark civic pride and serve as a symbol of the region. Since Tulsa replaced their flag, you see it all over now, whereas the old one basically only appeared in front of municipal buildings. Imagine all the places you've seen the Texas flag...now imagine the Kansas flag subbed in there, and it feels faintly ridiculous.

Honestly, it'd be really easy to make a nice Kansas flag. Just keep the blue background and stick a yellow K shield (with no number) in the middle of it. Done.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef


kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 10, 2022, 03:02:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 02:53:08 PM
Nope, I agree that most state flags suck.  I'm just saying it doesn't matter that they suck.

It may not matter that they suck, but having a flag that doesn't suck can certainly spark civic pride and serve as a symbol of the region. Since Tulsa replaced their flag, you see it all over now, whereas the old one basically only appeared in front of municipal buildings. Imagine all the places you've seen the Texas flag...now imagine the Kansas flag subbed in there, and it feels faintly ridiculous.

Honestly, it'd be really easy to make a nice Kansas flag. Just keep the blue background and stick a yellow K shield (with no number) in the middle of it. Done.

Have you seen the Wichita city flag?  One of the best, IMHO.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 03:04:31 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 10, 2022, 03:02:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 02:53:08 PM
Nope, I agree that most state flags suck.  I'm just saying it doesn't matter that they suck.

It may not matter that they suck, but having a flag that doesn't suck can certainly spark civic pride and serve as a symbol of the region. Since Tulsa replaced their flag, you see it all over now, whereas the old one basically only appeared in front of municipal buildings. Imagine all the places you've seen the Texas flag...now imagine the Kansas flag subbed in there, and it feels faintly ridiculous.

Honestly, it'd be really easy to make a nice Kansas flag. Just keep the blue background and stick a yellow K shield (with no number) in the middle of it. Done.

Have you seen the Wichita city flag?  One of the best, IMHO.

It's a lovely flag. It is simple and easy to identify.

uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

mgk920

Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 10, 2022, 09:00:21 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 10, 2022, 03:56:13 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on November 09, 2022, 11:03:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 09, 2022, 02:38:38 PM
If that's really a problem, you can just put "Lethbridge AB" or "Lethbridge, Can." or "Lethbridge 🇨🇦" or something like that.

Honestly, little flag icons next to control cities would be pretty cool. "Tucumcari ", perhaps?

("But what about all those state flags that look the same because they're just a state seal on a blue background?" you ask. Well, those flags should be replaced on the grounds that they suck, irrespective of any highway sign usage. Kansas, I love you, but your flag is lame as hell.)

About 30-40 years ago, Wisconsin added "WISCONSIN" and 1848" in white letters and numbers above and below the state seal on its otherwise solid dark blue banner, likely to better differentiate it from those of other nearby states.

Mike

If you have to label your flag with text, it's failed as a flag. The whole point of a flag is to make soldiers fighting under it easily identifiable. If you have to squint through the binoculars to try to read a little line of text to see if the people with the flag are friend or foe, it's not doing its job. And good luck trying to accurately recreate all the fiddly details of a state seal when you need to put together a flag in a hurry in the field.

There's been a wave of municipal flag redesigns over the last decade or so to make them better designed and better suited to the job of doing a flag. In Oklahoma, both Norman and Tulsa have gotten fine new flags. Oklahoma's flag isn't bad, but including the unnecessary word "OKLAHOMA" kind of detracts from it. It'd be perfectly identifiable without it.


Wisconsin's flag is terrible.  Milwaukee's is worse.



Of course the contest to design a new flag came up with something absolutely awesome, but it was never officially adopted - mostly because people hate change.  So now it's the underground "people's flag."



I do very much like that proposed Milwaukee city 'peoples flag' and would love to see it be essentially adopted through acclimation - just start using it.  Yes, even by suburbanites.

BTW, I do not like that above suggested New Mexico flag at all, it reminds be too much of something from pre-WWII era Germany.

You want a really KEWL city flag?  See: City of Chicago, IL.

Mike

Scott5114

Quote from: mgk920 on November 11, 2022, 02:27:33 AM
BTW, I do not like that above suggested New Mexico flag at all, it reminds be too much of something from pre-WWII era Germany.

That's because it's from pre-WWI New Mexico. It was replaced by the current NM flag.
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kphoger

Quote from: LilianaUwU on November 10, 2022, 12:42:06 AM
Speaking of garbage flags and New Mexico, I feel like more people need to know about New Mexico's unofficial flag in the 1910s:




Quote from: Scott5114 on November 11, 2022, 02:34:53 AM

Quote from: mgk920 on November 11, 2022, 02:27:33 AM
BTW, I do not like that above suggested New Mexico flag at all, it reminds be too much of something from pre-WWII era Germany.

That's because it's from pre-WWI New Mexico. It was replaced by the current NM flag.

It also wasn't "suggested".  Rather, it was called a "garbage flag" by the person who posted it.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Gnutella

Quote from: thspfc on August 13, 2022, 05:11:08 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 13, 2022, 04:38:14 PM
An extreme example is I-95 north skipping Philadelphia because New York is more important, although this is something some people disagree with.
That's a situation where there should be 2 control cities.

I'm in favor of using two control cities in that case, as well as cases where the next major metropolitan area is several hundred miles away.

Quote from: hobsini2 on August 13, 2022, 06:28:00 PM
Cities over 1M metro should never be skipped IMO. It's when you get to the smaller metros (200k-500k) where it gets dicey largely depending on how far away it is from a bigger metro.

I'd say no metropolitan area with at least 500,000 population should be skipped.

Quote from: I-55 on August 14, 2022, 07:12:01 PM
Have both primary and secondary control cities, e.g. Clarion, New York on same sign. Short range sign for local reference, long term destination for regional reference.

Regarding I-80 in Pennsylvania:


1. Sharon, Clarion, DuBois, Bloomsburg, and other small towns at U.S. route junctions should not be control cities, but should get priority on mileage signs, since they are crossroads of federal routes. To account for this, list three destinations on I-80 mileage signs instead of two. For example, the first mileage sign on I-80 eastbound past the junction of I-79 can read, Clarion 44 | DuBois 79 | State College 155. Also, the first mileage sign on I-80 westbound past the junction of I-81 can read, Berwick 13 | Bloomsburg 26 | State College 115.

2. On I-80 eastbound from the Ohio state line to I-99, use State College as the control city. There's no need to mention New York City except at the junctions of I-376 and I-79. At those two junctions, pair it with State College on pull-through signs, and give it special, stand-alone mileage signs that are one mile past each junction. Use State College as the only control city when accessing I-80 eastbound from all 26 interchanges between the Ohio state line and I-99, including from I-79 and I-376. It's a major destination, being home to a major state university.

3. On I-80 westbound from I-99 to the Ohio state line, use Youngstown as the control city. There's no need to mention Cleveland except for pairing it with Youngstown on pull-through signs at the junctions of I-79 and I-376, and listing it as the third destination on mileage signs west of I-79. Use Youngstown as the only control city when accessing I-80 westbound from all 26 interchanges between the Ohio state line and I-99, including from I-79 and I-376. Youngstown is a metropolitan area with more than 500,000 population, so it's important enough to be a control city.

4. On I-80 eastbound at the west junction of the future I-99 concurrency, pair New York City with Williamsport on the pull-through sign. Use Williamsport as the only control city when accessing I-80 eastbound from both interchanges on the concurrency. At the east junction of the I-99 concurrency and the junction of I-180, pair New York City with Hazleton on the pull-through signs, and give it a special, stand-alone mileage sign one mile past I-99. Use Hazleton as the only control city when accessing I-80 eastbound from all four interchanges between I-99 and I-180.

5. On I-80 eastbound from the junction of I-180 to the junction of I-81, pair New York City with Hazleton on every pull-through sign, and when accessing I-80 eastbound from every interchange.

6. On I-80 westbound from the junction of I-81 to the west junction of the future I-99 concurrency, use State College as the control city.

7. On I-80 eastbound from the junction of I-81 to the New Jersey State line, use New York City as the control city.

mgk920

IMHO, the worst control city on a Wisconsin interstate is 'Fond du Lac' for NB I-41 on the approach to the Zoo interchange in Milwaukee on I-94.  It should be 'Appleton' or 'Oshkosh'.

Mike

TheRhodeGeek

95 in Rhode Island mostly has good control cities, but sometimes they sign smaller towns on regular interchanges (I think so, I saw one on google maps) instead of long-distance cities (also, when I was younger, before I knew that control cities should be faraway destinations, I thought that 195 signing NYC for 95 south was a bit strange)
Limon and Breezewood should not be control cities!

Ketchup99

Pennsylvania's drive me up a wall. The most obscene, although this is a high bar, is probably Port Matilda on I-99.

If I had my way, it would go like this:

I-70 (west portion) - EB: Pittsburgh, Greensburg/Harrisburg. WB: Washington/Columbus, Wheeling/Columbus
I-70 (east portion) - EB: Hagerstown/Washington. WB: Pittsburgh
I-76 - EB: Pittsburgh, Harrisburg/Washington, Harrisburg, Philadelphia/NYC, Philadelphia, Atlantic City. WB: Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, Cleveland
(I-176 - NB: Reading, SB: Philadelphia)
(I-276 - EB: NYC, WB: Harrisburg)
(I-376 - EB: Pittsburgh, Downtown/Altoona, Altoona. WB: Pittsburgh, Downtown/Youngstown, Youngstown, New Castle, Sharon)
(I-476 - NB: Allentown, Scranton, Syracuse. SB: Allentown/Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Wilmington/Washington)
I-78- EB: Allentown/NYC, NYC. WB: Allentown, Harrisburg
I-80 - EB: State College/NYC, Williamsport/NYC, Scranton/NYC, NYC. WB: Scranton/Pittsburgh, State College/Pittsburgh, Youngstown/Cleveland
(I-180 - EB: Harrisburg/NYC. WB: Williamsport)
(I-380 - NB: Scranton. SB: NYC)
I-84 - EB: Port Jervis/Hartford, Newburgh/Hartford. WB: Scranton
I-86 - EB: Binghamton. WB: Erie
I-90 - EB: Erie/Buffalo, Buffalo. WB: Erie/Cleveland, Cleveland

I-79 - NB: Pittsburgh, Erie. SB: Pittsburgh, Morgantown
(I-279 - NB: North Hills, Erie, SB: Pittsburgh, Downtown)
(I-579 - NB: North Hills/Erie, SB: South Hills/Altoona)
I-81 - NB: Harrisburg, Scranton/NYC, Scranton, Binghamton/Syracuse. SB: Scranton/NYC, Harrisburg, Hagerstown
I-83 - NB: Harrisburg, Scranton/NYC. SB: Baltimore
(I-283 - NB: Harrisburg, SB: Philadelphia)
I-95 - NB: Philadelphia, Trenton/NYC, NYC. SB: Philadelphia, Wilmington/Washington
(I-295 - NB: Trenton, SB: Philadelphia)
I-99 - NB: Altoona, State College/NYC, Williamsport/NYC. SB: State College/Pittsburgh, Altoona/Pittsburgh, Bedford

The Nature Boy

Quote from: TheRhodeGeek on September 01, 2023, 04:21:32 PM
95 in Rhode Island mostly has good control cities, but sometimes they sign smaller towns on regular interchanges (I think so, I saw one on google maps) instead of long-distance cities (also, when I was younger, before I knew that control cities should be faraway destinations, I thought that 195 signing NYC for 95 south was a bit strange)

If I ran a state DOT, I would use the following formula for signing control cities:

<Local City>
<Distant Destination City>

I am flexible for defining the "Distant Destination City" but I would personally use the next major hub.

Here are a couple of examples:

If you're crossing the international border onto I-89 South in Vermont then your control cities would be Burlington and Boston. If you're leaving Boston on I-93 North then your control cities should be Manchester, NH and Montreal. If you're crossing the international border on I-91 South in Vermont, your control cities are White River Junction and New York City. At I-91's start in New Haven, I would sign Springfield and Montreal. I would even sign Boston as far north as the beginning of I-95 in northern Maine. The harder thing is what to sign as the distant control city on I-95 north of Portland, Maine.

On the other end of the BosWash corridor, you could clean up a lot of NCDOT's mess. South of Richmond, Fayetteville is the local control city while Miami is the distant control city. South of Fayetteville, it switches to Savannah. South of Savannah, it switches to Jacksonville...you get the point.

ran4sh

Interesting that you think Florence should be skipped.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
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CtrlAltDel

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 10, 2022, 03:02:23 PM

Honestly, it'd be really easy to make a nice Kansas flag. Just keep the blue background and stick a yellow K shield (with no number) in the middle of it. Done.

I don't know. It looks kind of like the Ukrainian version of the Japanese flag.


And all that work, just to do a little bit of research and see that Kansas has a state banner, which may or may not be an official alternative to the flag, I'm getting opposing claims. But I'm too hot to care too much right now due to my broken air conditioning, the technician for which is currently about an hour late.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

Scott5114

uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

CtrlAltDel

Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

Flint1979

If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

The Nature Boy

Quote from: ran4sh on September 02, 2023, 11:14:56 PM
Interesting that you think Florence should be skipped.

It's probably the only notable point in SC directly along I-95 but it's a small city with 40,000. There's a good argument for signing Charleston though until the I-26 interchange since it's a notable point (for both economic and historical reasons). But that opens a can of worms as to whether or not an interstate should reach a city for it to reach control city status.

freebrickproductions

Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 24, 2023, 11:39:34 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on September 02, 2023, 11:14:56 PM
Interesting that you think Florence should be skipped.

It's probably the only notable point in SC directly along I-95 but it's a small city with 40,000. There's a good argument for signing Charleston though until the I-26 interchange since it's a notable point (for both economic and historical reasons). But that opens a can of worms as to whether or not an interstate should reach a city for it to reach control city status.

I mean, Huntsville's the control city for I-65 when going south from Nashville or north from Birmingham, and this city doesn't, at least in any meaningful capacity*, exist on I-65 itself, but rather on I-565.

(*the city limits technically extend across I-65 at two different points, thanks to all kinds of land the city's been annexing out in Limestone County, but you wouldn't really know that you're within the Huntsville city limits at either point. Plus, I ain't sure that Huntsville's city limits even reached I-65 when this city became a control city for I-65, though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that)
It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

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US 89

I'm not a fan of Lake City in Florida, especially for I-10. I know it's an interstate junction, but putting Jacksonville on an eastbound sign in Tallahassee is not going to confuse the driver who's ultimately heading for Tampa or Orlando. Likewise, putting Tallahassee on a westbound sign in Jacksonville shouldn't be confusing to people who plan to exit on I-75 up into Georgia.

hobsini2

Quote from: mgk920 on September 01, 2023, 01:56:30 PM
IMHO, the worst control city on a Wisconsin interstate is 'Fond du Lac' for NB I-41 on the approach to the Zoo interchange in Milwaukee on I-94.  It should be 'Appleton' or 'Oshkosh'.

Mike
I am curious as to why you think FDL is not a good control.  It's at the start of the inland Fox Valley cities (I include it because Lake Winnebago is an inlet of the Fox). While I think Oshkosh or Appleton would look great as opposed to FDL, I don't think it is a bad control.
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SEWIGuy

Quote from: hobsini2 on September 30, 2023, 03:36:02 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 01, 2023, 01:56:30 PM
IMHO, the worst control city on a Wisconsin interstate is 'Fond du Lac' for NB I-41 on the approach to the Zoo interchange in Milwaukee on I-94.  It should be 'Appleton' or 'Oshkosh'.

Mike
I am curious as to why you think FDL is not a good control.  It's at the start of the inland Fox Valley cities (I include it because Lake Winnebago is an inlet of the Fox). While I think Oshkosh or Appleton would look great as opposed to FDL, I don't think it is a bad control.


Colloquially FdL is not considered part of the Fox Valley regardless of the geography. But you are right - it is absolutely fine as a control city since the purpose of control cities to indicate the right direction at an interchange. And it certainly is well known enough to serve that purpose.

cwf1701

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 05, 2023, 06:29:55 PM
If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?

Flint1979

Quote from: cwf1701 on October 01, 2023, 10:00:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 05, 2023, 06:29:55 PM
If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?
It's 50/50. It does take you to the Ambassador Bridge that leads you into Canada but at the same time it is misleading because if you see Canada you would assume that it takes you to the border with no other option to remain in the USA like in Port Huron and Sault Ste. Marie but those signs are at the last exit before the border. In this case the control city should be Toledo because EB I-96 just empties into SB I-75 which has the control city of Toledo, it could also still say DOWNTOWN Detroit like at the Southfield Freeway interchange.

amroad17

Quote from: cwf1701 on October 01, 2023, 10:00:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 05, 2023, 06:29:55 PM
If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?
For the U.P./St. Ignace comment, I could see Mackinac Bridge used, however, the U.P. has its own vibe.  Many residents probably don't care if the bridge, Saginaw, Flint, or Detroit is signed as a control city since they probably do not travel much over the bridge and further south (especially since Saginaw is around 210 miles from the south approach to the bridge).  They would more than likely prefer control cities that are in the U.P. signed on I-75, or on other highways such as US 2, US 41, or M-28.

For the I-96/Canada comment, the reason Canada 🇨🇦 is signed is that I-96 leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing.  Is Windsor supposed to be signed instead?  Could be but this is one of the main crossings for motorists not just to go to Windsor.  This is also a way to get to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal along with the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing or the I-81/Thousand Islands crossing.  These crossings as well as the crossings in Buffalo and Niagara Falls all have Canada 🇨🇦 as a control point as these are gateways to visit Canada or to "cut through" Canada above Lake Erie instead of traveling below in the USA.

After typing this, I read what Flint1979 commented.  I would still sign I-96 for Canada because once I-96 interchanges with I-75, the I-75 controls  are posted and motorists can decide on their options there.  Could "TO I-75" be added to the I-96 sign to give a motorist the USA option?  It more than likely would help, I believe.
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)

Flint1979

Quote from: amroad17 on October 01, 2023, 10:52:30 PM
Quote from: cwf1701 on October 01, 2023, 10:00:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 05, 2023, 06:29:55 PM
If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?
For the U.P./St. Ignace comment, I could see Mackinac Bridge used, however, the U.P. has its own vibe.  Many residents probably don't care if the bridge, Saginaw, Flint, or Detroit is signed as a control city since they probably do not travel much over the bridge and further south (especially since Saginaw is around 210 miles from the south approach to the bridge).  They would more than likely prefer control cities that are in the U.P. signed on I-75, or on other highways such as US 2, US 41, or M-28.

For the I-96/Canada comment, the reason Canada 🇨🇦 is signed is that I-96 leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing.  Is Windsor supposed to be signed instead?  Could be but this is one of the main crossings for motorists not just to go to Windsor.  This is also a way to get to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal along with the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing or the I-81/Thousand Islands crossing.  These crossings as well as the crossings in Buffalo and Niagara Falls all have Canada 🇨🇦 as a control point as these are gateways to visit Canada or to "cut through" Canada above Lake Erie instead of traveling below in the USA.

After typing this, I read what Flint1979 commented.  I would still sign I-96 for Canada because once I-96 interchanges with I-75, the I-75 controls  are posted and motorists can decide on their options there.  Could "TO I-75" be added to the I-96 sign to give a motorist the USA option?  It more than likely would help, I believe.
Since the Mackinac Bridge connects both peninsulas you are automatically going to know what direction you are heading if you see Mackinac Bridge. Saginaw which is where I live is the first significant city along I-75 going south so that is why it's signed so far north.

We know why Canada is used on I-96 but it doesn't matter that it leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing, there are exits before you get to the border that do not lead to Canada, using Canada there tells you that the route takes you to Canada with no option to remain in the USA. Within the city of Detroit the control city is DOWNTOWN Detroit like at the Southfield interchange and that would be fine as I-75 north would indeed take you to DOWNTOWN Detroit.

Using TO I-75 for WB I-94 doesn't make that much sense considering that I-94 has already had it's interchange with I-75 at that point. Maybe a TO South I-75 sign would make more sense. Still though Toledo should really be the control city there. They use Bridge to Canada on the signs leading up to the interchange then just Canada at the interchange.



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