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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Traffic Control => Topic started by: MCRoads on May 10, 2021, 03:39:43 AM

Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: MCRoads on May 10, 2021, 03:39:43 AM
So, I was perusing google maps near Mobile, AL, and saw this (https://goo.gl/maps/ihFdLUw2YeijB8tCA). Google street view isn't updated, but does it really need to be to show how ugly this looks?

Then, I remember seeing this amazingly complicated monstrosity (https://goo.gl/maps/DTfFCmfTDH1nrdMQ6) on the 6th ave freeway.you know your merges are bad when you need a sign like this!

But, I think the worst merge I have ever seen has to be the (thankfully now former) I-64 triple lane merge just north of Hampton Roads, VA. That, my friends, was a traffic nightmare. 2 lanes end on the left within 3/4 mile, AND the on-ramp from Jefferson Ave merged within that same space? That definitely belonged in the "WTF Is That?!"  category.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Tom958 on May 10, 2021, 05:48:52 AM
This one in Philadelphia (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9246287,-75.1931191,165m/data=!3m1!1e3), where the I-76 mainline and two onramps each converge from two lanes to one in less than 400 feet.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Ned Weasel on May 10, 2021, 06:05:42 AM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 10, 2021, 03:39:43 AM
So, I was perusing google maps near Mobile, AL, and saw this (https://goo.gl/maps/ihFdLUw2YeijB8tCA). Google street view isn't updated, but does it really need to be to show how ugly this looks?

This actually makes a lot of sense, because it allows traffic to either yield and then safely make the quickly upcoming left turn, or use the other lane and bypass the merge without having to yield.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Occidental Tourist on May 11, 2021, 01:09:00 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/7sdAVsb.jpg)

This basically blind yield onto the 57 Freeway n/b from Lambert Road.  They are reconstructing the interchange and with the construction barriers there's basically no room for a merge, so they put a yield sign at the end of the ramp.  I'm not sure if you're actually supposed to attempt to stop, but if you did stop, you're asking for a rear end collision or to get clipped by traffic in the right-hand lane when you accelerate from a dead stop.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: SkyPesos on May 11, 2021, 01:19:35 AM
3 ramps merging onto I-270 NB at the I-670 interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0222812,-82.9040312,3a,24.3y,161.92h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL2LHBzu4tSJ7upuelLeWUQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). This was a recent change to filter traffic taking the next exit.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Scott5114 on May 11, 2021, 02:03:22 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on May 11, 2021, 01:09:00 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/7sdAVsb.jpg)

This basically blind yield onto the 57 Freeway n/b from Lambert Road.  They are reconstructing the interchange and with the construction barriers there's basically no room for a merge, so they put a yield sign at the end of the ramp.  I'm not sure if you're actually supposed to attempt to stop, but if you did stop, you're asking for a rear end collision or to get clipped by traffic in the right-hand lane when you accelerate from a dead stop.

I got into two rear-end accidents in 2014 when ODOT had a near-identical setup on I-35 in Norman (both caused by the driver ahead of me making a false start, then coming to a dead stop ahead of me as I was turning to see if I was clear to use the same gap in traffic). After the second one I started detouring to an interchange two miles upstream of the interchange under construction just so I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: sprjus4 on May 11, 2021, 02:48:53 AM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 10, 2021, 03:39:43 AM
But, I think the worst merge I have ever seen has to be the (thankfully now former) I-64 triple lane merge just north of Hampton Roads, VA. That, my friends, was a traffic nightmare. 2 lanes end on the left within 3/4 mile, AND the on-ramp from Jefferson Ave merged within that same space? That definitely belonged in the "WTF Is That?!"  category.
That area was a nightmare going down from 8 lanes to 4. Thankfully the 6 lane widening north of that location completed back in 2017 has made an issues in that area practically non-existent, even during peak hours. Now, that 4th lane drop turns into who can get up to 90 mph and ride it until the very end to take the last passing opportunity of the other 3 lanes.

It was also nice that they increased the speed limit south of that location to 65 mph from Jefferson Ave down to just north of Mercury Blvd. The previous 60 mph limit had no compliance, and the usual 75-80 mph flow hasn't really changed as a result of the increase. It made no sense coming from the old 2 lane (heading southbound) configuration, then opening up to 4 lanes, wide open highway, and the speed limit lowering to 60 mph.

VDOT also responded to one of my tweets and said they plan to conduct a speed study on the newly widened I-64 north of Jefferson once Phase 3 widening is complete, so there might be future 70 mph zone finally. In all reality, it could easily handle it. I'd say even south of there, but given the urban environment, it's a blessing just to see even 65 mph.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: GenExpwy on May 11, 2021, 05:30:23 AM
I am not a fan of the westbound entrance to I-86 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1586799,-77.0999842,667m/data=!3m1!1e3) at Painted Post NY.
All of this is the main entrance to I-86 from most of Corning, Riverside, Painted Post, and Gang Mills.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Rothman on May 11, 2021, 07:14:56 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 11, 2021, 02:03:22 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on May 11, 2021, 01:09:00 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/7sdAVsb.jpg)

This basically blind yield onto the 57 Freeway n/b from Lambert Road.  They are reconstructing the interchange and with the construction barriers there's basically no room for a merge, so they put a yield sign at the end of the ramp.  I'm not sure if you're actually supposed to attempt to stop, but if you did stop, you're asking for a rear end collision or to get clipped by traffic in the right-hand lane when you accelerate from a dead stop.

I got into two rear-end accidents in 2014 when ODOT had a near-identical setup on I-35 in Norman (both caused by the driver ahead of me making a false start, then coming to a dead stop ahead of me as I was turning to see if I was clear to use the same gap in traffic). After the second one I started detouring to an interchange two miles upstream of the interchange under construction just so I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore.

Huh.  My Driver's Ed class thirty years ago specifically hammered on that situation to prevent rear-end accidents (i.e., watch the car in front of you before accelerating).
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on May 11, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Unfamiliar driver:

"Oh nice, 3 lanes that exit"
(https://i.imgur.com/Quuzj8L.png)

Then,
"Ah shit, why is this lane ending!!!"
(https://i.imgur.com/sPqVnkf.png)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Scott5114 on May 11, 2021, 03:58:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 11, 2021, 07:14:56 AM
Huh.  My Driver's Ed class thirty years ago specifically hammered on that situation to prevent rear-end accidents (i.e., watch the car in front of you before accelerating).

I guess by the time I took Driver's Ed they were of the opinion that there were enough acceleration lanes that we didn't need that information. Instead, most of the class was given over to watching videos from the 1970s showing gruesome injuries of car crash victims (which I very pointedly and intentionally did not watch).

But then again my Driver's Ed was taught by off-season football coaches, so it's a wonder I can operate a car at all.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 11, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Unfamiliar driver:

"Oh nice, 3 lanes that exit"
(https://i.imgur.com/Quuzj8L.png)

Then,
"Ah shit, why is this lane ending!!!"
(https://i.imgur.com/sPqVnkf.png)

Is there any point to this at all?  I would think that they would just make the right two lanes exit and be done with it. 

There is a similar exit near me, exit to I-95 north from Beltway WB (95/495) in College Park, MD where the three lanes become two lanes, but at least they provide three lanes for the duration of the transition ramp, as a way to even out traffic.  (The three lanes become two lanes only once the lanes merge in with traffic coming from the other direction of the Beltway.)  The above situation in Toronto makes no sense at all, so it's a perfect fit for the thread.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on May 12, 2021, 12:35:36 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0437101,-88.0342969,3a,75y,325.7h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLcOmzaSkQ-WPXOtLINJbeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This is on the 41 NB at Watertown Plank Road just north of the Zoo Interchange... 5 lanes down to 3 at the same spot with both left and right lanes merging! Luckily, this will be a thing in the past as they are widening 41 north of this interchange to 4 lanes up to either North Ave or Burleigh Street...
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: roadman65 on May 12, 2021, 08:50:42 AM
The Selmon exit in South Tampa for EB US 92.  The interchange was just redone along with the new Selmon Extension and still has the weave to get in the sudden left turn lane that US 92 EB takes after the ramp merge onto US 92.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on May 12, 2021, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 11, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Unfamiliar driver:

"Oh nice, 3 lanes that exit"
[image removed]

Then,
"Ah shit, why is this lane ending!!!"
[image removed]

Is there any point to this at all?  I would think that they would just make the right two lanes exit and be done with it. 

There is a similar exit near me, exit to I-95 north from Beltway WB (95/495) in College Park, MD where the three lanes become two lanes, but at least they provide three lanes for the duration of the transition ramp, as a way to even out traffic.  (The three lanes become two lanes only once the lanes merge in with traffic coming from the other direction of the Beltway.)  The above situation in Toronto makes no sense at all, so it's a perfect fit for the thread.

Up until 2009, this was actually a 3 lane exit.

The thing is, once this ramp meets the mainline, the mainline becomes 5 lanes, so one lane had to end. And back then, it was the lane on the mainline that ended. I guess the traffic patterns changed as time went on and there were more cars coming from the mainline, and therefore they decided to remove one lane from this ramp.

As for making it a 2-lane exit without a "choice lane" (lane where you could continue or exit), Ontario very rarely does exits with 2 exit-only lanes, I'm guessing it's because if a driver was mistakenly in the wrong lane, they would have one last chance to stay on the freeway instead of exiting.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: webny99 on May 12, 2021, 10:11:49 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 12, 2021, 09:04:56 AM
As for making it a 2-lane exit without a "choice lane" (lane where you could continue or exit), Ontario very rarely does exits with 2 exit-only lanes, I'm guessing it's because if a driver was mistakenly in the wrong lane, they would have one last chance to stay on the freeway instead of exiting.

I believe "option lane" is the official term... and yes, Ontario loves them! There are tons of exits that would be a single-lane exit anywhere else and they provide an option lane.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: riiga on May 13, 2021, 06:26:53 PM
Not sure how common this is, but I can't think of anywhere else I've seen this (GSV link) (https://www.google.se/maps/@59.3820379,18.0411996,3a,36.8y,174.5h,84.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_E30beHZ4GX6ScVV7mkeGw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) where one lane has to yield but not the other:

(https://i.imgur.com/m9Yjr6k.png)
Sharp turn and left lane yield up ahead.

(https://i.imgur.com/2oB1188.png)
Left lane recommended speed is 50 km/h (30 mph).

(https://i.imgur.com/FAwWGdL.png)
Actual merge. Signs says "Applies to left lane only". Also note the rumble strips (and shark teeth in the distance).
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on May 14, 2021, 06:24:25 PM
The above reminds me of a centre-lane merge thread that appeared some time ago
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: jay8g on May 16, 2021, 02:57:53 AM
This may be slightly off topic, but I'm always amused by the lane that appears out of the gorepoint (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.22574,-122.4264435,3a,53.6y,38.35h,80.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr8A7SrpiXoS7we47fo1GiA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) on the stub of SR 7 (and then promptly disappears after the I-5 ramps).

Going the other way, you have two lanes end at almost the same time (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.2280882,-122.4283387,3a,25.2y,138.84h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1RcbpGLjULEPYe06-IGmcQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) with minimal signage, though I doubt there's ever enough traffic for that to be a big issue.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on May 17, 2021, 09:38:46 AM
Here's one, from the Weston Road ramp onto Highway 401:

This ramp has a very short acceleration lane, and not only that, the lane that cars have to merge into exits 300 metres away (and it's a major freeway exit, Highway 400). That means cars getting on the freeway here have to make 2 lane changes in quick succession, while cars trying to exit onto the 400 have to deal with cars trying to merge into their lane. It causes quite a bit of backup every day due to the weaving.

(https://i.imgur.com/CK2yTCf.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/bDNSjX6.png)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: MCRoads on May 17, 2021, 09:51:32 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 17, 2021, 09:38:46 AM
Here's one, from the Weston Road ramp onto Highway 401:

This ramp has a very short acceleration lane, and not only that, the lane that cars have to merge into exits 300 metres away (and it's a major freeway exit, Highway 400). That means cars getting on the freeway here have to make 2 lane changes in quick succession, while cars trying to exit onto the 400 have to deal with cars trying to merge into their lane. It causes quite a bit of backup every day due to the weaving.

(https://i.imgur.com/CK2yTCf.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/bDNSjX6.png)

Time for a C/D road for the C/D road? Lol
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on May 17, 2021, 11:20:24 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 17, 2021, 09:51:32 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 17, 2021, 09:38:46 AM
Here's one, from the Weston Road ramp onto Highway 401:

This ramp has a very short acceleration lane, and not only that, the lane that cars have to merge into exits 300 metres away (and it's a major freeway exit, Highway 400). That means cars getting on the freeway here have to make 2 lane changes in quick succession, while cars trying to exit onto the 400 have to deal with cars trying to merge into their lane. It causes quite a bit of backup every day due to the weaving.

[images removed]

Time for a C/D road for the C/D road? Lol

I think the solution here would be to change the configuration of the interchange to the following:
(https://i.imgur.com/nEbSBP7.png)

In addition, they should then make the freeway exit 2 lanes, one lane being a choice lane. It shouldn't be hard to do, and just a simple one-lane widening, because further down the line, the ramp actually does widen to 2 lanes. This way, cars from Weston just need to make one merge.

(https://i.imgur.com/yDZ3zSE.png)

Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: webny99 on May 18, 2021, 07:49:11 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 17, 2021, 11:20:24 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 17, 2021, 09:51:32 PM
Time for a C/D road for the C/D road? Lol

I think the solution here would be to change the configuration of the interchange to the following:
(https://i.imgur.com/nEbSBP7.png)
...

What you suggest is basically identical to what was done at this interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1649497,-77.6814197,17z/data=!5m1!1e1) (as just one part of a much larger project also involving the I-490 interchange). Each direction of NY 31 used to have its own ramp to NY 390 NB (a mirror of the current SB setup), but the WB to NB movement is now a left turn at the new intersection with Lee Rd.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on May 18, 2021, 08:49:47 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2021, 07:49:11 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 17, 2021, 11:20:24 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 17, 2021, 09:51:32 PM
Time for a C/D road for the C/D road? Lol

I think the solution here would be to change the configuration of the interchange to the following:
(https://i.imgur.com/nEbSBP7.png)
...

What you suggest is basically identical to what was done at this interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1649497,-77.6814197,17z/data=!5m1!1e1) (as just one part of a much larger project also involving the I-490 interchange). Each direction of NY 31 used to have its own ramp to NY 390 NB (a mirror of the current SB setup), but the WB to NB movement is now a left turn at the new intersection with Lee Rd.

Yes, exactly
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 19, 2021, 12:00:54 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 11, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Unfamiliar driver:

"Oh nice, 3 lanes that exit"
(https://i.imgur.com/Quuzj8L.png)

Then,
"Ah shit, why is this lane ending!!!"
(https://i.imgur.com/sPqVnkf.png)

Is there any point to this at all?  I would think that they would just make the right two lanes exit and be done with it.

At the Interstate 93 and I-293/Everett Turnpike split in Hooksett NH, for drivers continuing straight to I-293/Everett Turnpike SB, I never really understood why a third lane appears here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0653526,-71.4715628,3a,23.7y,183.81h,88.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgQ2oYNjd9nDSMtRzn2CwZw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), only for it to end 580 m (634 yd) (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0599249,-71.471482,3a,29.9y,189.86h,88.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8Kx1N0a5C2C-t4m8o1RNKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) after I-93 leaves the Everett Turnpike.

Why not just leave the I-293 approach at two lanes, especially since I-293 / Everett Turnpike has only two thru lanes for ~14.8 km (~9.2 mi) south of this interchange? It appears this configuration was like this for some time now, since Google Earth suggests that this has been in place since 1998.

(https://i.ibb.co/tDsGdnt/Screenshot-2021-05-18-at-23-50-06.png) (https://ibb.co/tDsGdnt)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 19, 2021, 12:11:58 AM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 10, 2021, 06:05:42 AM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 10, 2021, 03:39:43 AM
So, I was perusing google maps near Mobile, AL, and saw this (https://goo.gl/maps/ihFdLUw2YeijB8tCA). Google street view isn't updated, but does it really need to be to show how ugly this looks?

This actually makes a lot of sense, because it allows traffic to either yield and then safely make the quickly upcoming left turn, or use the other lane and bypass the merge without having to yield.

This configuration kind of reminds me of how some on-ramps (UK: slip ramp) join on some UK motorways when there are two lanes merging onto the motorway...

Example 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8605977,0.1898384,545m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-US)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: kphoger on May 19, 2021, 01:03:15 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 19, 2021, 12:11:58 AM

Quote from: stridentweasel on May 10, 2021, 06:05:42 AM

Quote from: MCRoads on May 10, 2021, 03:39:43 AM
So, I was perusing google maps near Mobile, AL, and saw this (https://goo.gl/maps/ihFdLUw2YeijB8tCA). Google street view isn't updated, but does it really need to be to show how ugly this looks?

This actually makes a lot of sense, because it allows traffic to either yield and then safely make the quickly upcoming left turn, or use the other lane and bypass the merge without having to yield.

This configuration kind of reminds me of how some on-ramps (UK: slip ramp) join on some UK motorways when there are two lanes merging onto the motorway...

Example 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8605977,0.1898384,545m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-US)

Street View (https://goo.gl/maps/s9viKnUNotjdvaZ19)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: MCRoads on May 20, 2021, 09:25:19 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 19, 2021, 12:00:54 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 11, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Unfamiliar driver:

"Oh nice, 3 lanes that exit"
(https://i.imgur.com/Quuzj8L.png)

Then,
"Ah shit, why is this lane ending!!!"
(https://i.imgur.com/sPqVnkf.png)

Is there any point to this at all?  I would think that they would just make the right two lanes exit and be done with it.

At the Interstate 93 and I-293/Everett Turnpike split in Hooksett NH, for drivers continuing straight to I-293/Everett Turnpike SB, I never really understood why a third lane appears here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0653526,-71.4715628,3a,23.7y,183.81h,88.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgQ2oYNjd9nDSMtRzn2CwZw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), only for it to end 580 m (634 yd) (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0599249,-71.471482,3a,29.9y,189.86h,88.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8Kx1N0a5C2C-t4m8o1RNKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) after I-93 leaves the Everett Turnpike.

Why not just leave the I-293 approach at two lanes, especially since I-293 / Everett Turnpike has only two thru lanes for ~14.8 km (~9.2 mi) south of this interchange? It appears this configuration was like this for some time now, since Google Earth suggests that this has been in place since 1998.

(https://i.ibb.co/tDsGdnt/Screenshot-2021-05-18-at-23-50-06.png) (https://ibb.co/tDsGdnt)

Oh wow. I thought at first that the middle lane split into 2 lanes, which kind of made sense, but they force an extra lane out of there! That's odd...
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: mrsman on May 21, 2021, 07:38:10 AM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 20, 2021, 09:25:19 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 19, 2021, 12:00:54 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 11, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Unfamiliar driver:

"Oh nice, 3 lanes that exit"

snip


Then,
"Ah shit, why is this lane ending!!!"

snip



Is there any point to this at all?  I would think that they would just make the right two lanes exit and be done with it.

At the Interstate 93 and I-293/Everett Turnpike split in Hooksett NH, for drivers continuing straight to I-293/Everett Turnpike SB, I never really understood why a third lane appears here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0653526,-71.4715628,3a,23.7y,183.81h,88.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgQ2oYNjd9nDSMtRzn2CwZw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), only for it to end 580 m (634 yd) (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0599249,-71.471482,3a,29.9y,189.86h,88.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8Kx1N0a5C2C-t4m8o1RNKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) after I-93 leaves the Everett Turnpike.

Why not just leave the I-293 approach at two lanes, especially since I-293 / Everett Turnpike has only two thru lanes for ~14.8 km (~9.2 mi) south of this interchange? It appears this configuration was like this for some time now, since Google Earth suggests that this has been in place since 1998.

(https://i.ibb.co/tDsGdnt/Screenshot-2021-05-18-at-23-50-06.png) (https://ibb.co/tDsGdnt)

Oh wow. I thought at first that the middle lane split into 2 lanes, which kind of made sense, but they force an extra lane out of there! That's odd...

There is this sign further back:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.071213,-71.4719477,3a,75y,186.44h,86.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPKEYMJu7fSC9p0SFhOOoQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It clearly delineates the left lane for 293, the second lane for 293 or 93, and the right two lanes for 93 only.  I cannot even fathom who would even be driving in that third lane for 293.  Are there times when this split is congested  and folks who were in the third lane at the sign that I posted cut over in the last minute to make the exit for 293?  That is the only thing I can think of, the third lane will facilitate a dangerous move of a last minute cut over that at least does not need to merge in with the 293 traffic until after the split.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: wanderer2575 on May 21, 2021, 07:50:24 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 21, 2021, 07:38:10 AM
There is this sign further back:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.071213,-71.4719477,3a,75y,186.44h,86.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPKEYMJu7fSC9p0SFhOOoQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It clearly delineates the left lane for 293, the second lane for 293 or 93, and the right two lanes for 93 only.  I cannot even fathom who would even be driving in that third lane for 293.  Are there times when this split is congested  and folks who were in the third lane at the sign that I posted cut over in the last minute to make the exit for 293?  That is the only thing I can think of, the third lane will facilitate a dangerous move of a last minute cut over that at least does not need to merge in with the 293 traffic until after the split.

The sign on the other side of that gantry is messed up:

https://goo.gl/maps/jvbBmz8GY64wAcNa6

"Prepare for a wicked lane merge if you're in the second left lane!"
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: hotdogPi on May 21, 2021, 08:03:33 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 21, 2021, 07:50:24 AM
"Prepare for a wicked crazy lane merge if you're in the second left lane!"

Fixed, given the location of the sign.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: fillup420 on May 21, 2021, 01:43:35 PM
one of my local merges (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0591618,-79.0858825,3a,33.2y,254.23h,92.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s89iv2zbS2lrDuJjrHGhRdw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). I-85 in Orange county NC

Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: ari-s-drives on May 21, 2021, 02:23:05 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/dAt52EF.jpg)

There's a two-fer near where I grew up. If you're coming from eastbound I-580 to southbound I-680, you have about 50 meters to do a blind merge (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6989104,-121.9223014,3a,62.1y,158.12h,86.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szcIwXxuSyfhLuPCXYSUbUQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). After this, though, you have a quarter of a mile to merge into high-speed traffic before your lane exits the freeway again.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Brandon on May 23, 2021, 02:01:53 AM
May I present the Hillside Strangler as a candidate for "WTF Is That?"?

2 lanes from I-290 east
1 lane from I-294 north
1 lane from I-294 south
2 lanes from I-88 east (one on either side of I-290)
All to squeeze into 3 lanes of I-290 east of there.  Did I mention the lane drops along the way?

Western part: https://goo.gl/maps/fUuxFnQSfAniL6Tk9
Eastern part: https://goo.gl/maps/9iWZWeXduCNYjdCy8.
I-88 east: https://goo.gl/maps/u83n2H2AYttLmjGL8
I-290 east: https://goo.gl/maps/Akkav4WPzjYRA5sV9
Between Mannheim and 25th Avenue: https://goo.gl/maps/mEHYgbfBWMNDarwz8
A bit further east: https://goo.gl/maps/awTZkoPtwddczrob7

This wonderful bit of fuckery from IDOT backs up even during a pandemic.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 02, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
MA 24. Merge from hell.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1987466,-71.0790143,3a,75y,168.32h,82.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D124.14194%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1987466,-71.0790143,3a,75y,168.32h,82.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D124.14194%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)

Typical MA "fuck you, you're on you're own" merge. No room to accelerate. Traffic here is already going 65-70 in a 55,
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6841295,-71.1351827,3a,43.4y,141.49h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn3Tq54xMz1S9-YsLqU6Cng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6841295,-71.1351827,3a,43.4y,141.49h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn3Tq54xMz1S9-YsLqU6Cng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

And then when they do give you an acceleration lane, like here on the Mass Pike, its not striped, so traffic often just presses in whenever it wants to.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1933497,-71.8501269,3a,75y,61.25h,80.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5ckM70t--Fxqfx1KuDXs7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1933497,-71.8501269,3a,75y,61.25h,80.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5ckM70t--Fxqfx1KuDXs7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Then we have this section of Hudson St. in Hartford that's wide enough for two lanes but no one can agree on it. Sometimes it's two, but then you get that one guy that says its one and sits dead center.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7615253,-72.6769895,3a,75y,20.24h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQDKjzUDAqLXtP2qkr7IVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7615253,-72.6769895,3a,75y,20.24h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQDKjzUDAqLXtP2qkr7IVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on June 02, 2021, 04:02:56 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 02, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
Then we have this section of Hudson St. in Hartford that's wide enough for two lanes but no one can agree on it. Sometimes it's two, but then you get that one guy that says its one and sits dead center.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7615253,-72.6769895,3a,75y,20.24h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQDKjzUDAqLXtP2qkr7IVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7615253,-72.6769895,3a,75y,20.24h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQDKjzUDAqLXtP2qkr7IVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

I'd probably be the guy that sits dead centre...
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: kphoger on June 02, 2021, 04:11:01 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on June 02, 2021, 04:02:56 PM

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 02, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
Then we have this section of Hudson St. in Hartford that's wide enough for two lanes but no one can agree on it. Sometimes it's two, but then you get that one guy that says its one and sits dead center.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7615253,-72.6769895,3a,75y,20.24h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQDKjzUDAqLXtP2qkr7IVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7615253,-72.6769895,3a,75y,20.24h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQDKjzUDAqLXtP2qkr7IVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

I'd probably be the guy that sits dead centre...

2011 view (https://goo.gl/maps/3z4ZC8Ae2VgZg5Su7)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: kphoger on June 02, 2021, 04:13:09 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 02, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
And then when they do give you an acceleration lane, like here on the Mass Pike, its not striped, so traffic often just presses in whenever it wants to.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1933497,-71.8501269,3a,75y,61.25h,80.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5ckM70t--Fxqfx1KuDXs7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1933497,-71.8501269,3a,75y,61.25h,80.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5ckM70t--Fxqfx1KuDXs7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Don't people merge whenever they want anyway, regardless of striping?
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: deathtopumpkins on June 03, 2021, 10:06:10 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 02, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
MA 24. Merge from hell.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1987466,-71.0790143,3a,75y,168.32h,82.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D124.14194%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1987466,-71.0790143,3a,75y,168.32h,82.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D124.14194%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)

This is gone. Now all 4 lanes join, then the right lane ends. It's visible in the Dec. 2020 imagery, but there's a truck in the way of any decent view: https://goo.gl/maps/2iwiX3NGFJ8WD48j8

I liked the center lane merge better, tbh. And the northbound-to-eastbound interior lane merge is still there as of Tuesday.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: fwydriver405 on June 03, 2021, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on June 03, 2021, 10:06:10 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 02, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
MA 24. Merge from hell.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1987466,-71.0790143,3a,75y,168.32h,82.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D124.14194%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1987466,-71.0790143,3a,75y,168.32h,82.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DZIrSpmbqN1fBFQE_c0zD7w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D124.14194%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)

This is gone. Now all 4 lanes join, then the right lane ends. It's visible in the Dec. 2020 imagery, but there's a truck in the way of any decent view: https://goo.gl/maps/2iwiX3NGFJ8WD48j8

I liked the center lane merge better, tbh. And the northbound-to-eastbound interior lane merge is still there as of Tuesday.

Let's not forget...

In MA:
- the northbound collector lanes of the Zakim Bridge coming from the Sumner Tunnel or from Cross St. wanting to go on I-93 NB was like this as well, also modified recently to only have one lane merge instead of the two like the MA 24 from I-93 examples.
- The ramp from the Mass. Pike Exit 134 to I-93 South (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3442373,-71.0615924,146m/data=!3m1!1e3) before Exit 15 (Mass. Ave) is like the former MA 24 from I-93 lane configuration to this day. Some people like shown in this video (https://youtu.be/_ouAzmek1xg?t=100), like to merge crossing the gore point like I've seen many times...
- I-495's northern end to I-95 North (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8647216,-70.8921312,127m/data=!3m1!1e3) before I-95 exit 90 is like this as well.
- Many on-ramps on Soldiers Field Rd (from the Allston exit thru Harvard and the Elliot Br intersection), Storrow Drive (Charles/MGH to Storrow WB comes to mind), and the Alewife Brook Pkwy from the Elliot Br to the Route 16 intersection.

NH:
I-293 in Manchester before Exit 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9608651,-71.4218077,237m/data=!3m1!1e3), where I-93 merges with that centre lane merge
I-293 North in Hooksett (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0569497,-71.4707625,211m/data=!3m1!1e3) where I-93 and the toll portion take over (with a special centre lane merge sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0496431,-71.4706843,3a,15y,305.67h,90.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVByuKyBMaeoJK9WbEBO00Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), older version (https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/nh/i-93/nmerge.jpg) from Alp's site)
I-95 in Portsmouth, both from the left (from the Portsmouth traffic circle) (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0660308,-70.7924105,189m/data=!3m1!1e3) and right (from the Spaulding Turnpike) (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0621642,-70.7982692,189m/data=!3m1!1e3)

...as well as one location near West Gardiner ME (I-295's northern end to I-95 North merges (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.223533,-69.818208,180m/data=!3m1!1e3)). The West Gardiner one has also been modified to add 2 lanes onto I-95 before ending both lanes one at a time at a decent distance. Modifed when the new West Gardiner Toll Plaza was complete.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: mrsman on June 03, 2021, 11:38:15 PM
Interior lane merges are terrible.  By design, they leave little room for drivers to be able to get into proper position.  I understand when 2 2-lane roads merge into a 3-lane road that this type of merge is done so as not to give priority to either route - but it is still a problem.  Give MassDOT some kudos for fixing the merge from hell on MA 24, as mentioned above.

Perhaps the only version of interior lane merge that was done safely was the merge on the NJTP just south of exit 8A, before the road was widened some years ago.  The right lane of the left roadway merged in with the left lane of the right roadway to form the new middle lane of the 3-lane NJTP that is south of the neckdown.  Traffic on the other lanes was restricted from interfering with these two lanes (no changing lanes) and they provided a good amount of room to make the merger.  Safe merge when traffic was light, horrible merge that cause miles-long backups during busy times.  Thank goodness they widened this a few year ago to keep the dual roadway setup for several more miles south.

Here's a GSV from 2012:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3377398,-74.4793688,3a,75y,212.07h,88.02t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP1CUNHc-LygPoCiHgVOcIw!2e0!5s20120601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Here's an example of an interior lane merge that I hate, largely because it is so unnecessary.  In West Sacramento, the 2-lane CA-275 (Tower Bridge Gateway) merges in with the 3-lane US 50 to create a 4-lane US 50.  Unlike when two freeways come together, there isn't that much traffic on CA 275.  CA 275 should form one lane prior to merging with US 50 and then just merge into US 50's fourth lane.  I lived in the area, and when I was driving on CA 275, I'd always drive only in the right lane to avoid this point of merger.


https://www.google.com/maps/@38.576595,-121.5293029,3a,75y,274.33h,90.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stsDtfhT9YFHc8tAynmjR8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: kphoger on June 04, 2021, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 03, 2021, 11:38:15 PM
Perhaps the only version of interior lane merge that was done safely was the merge on the NJTP just south of exit 8A, before the road was widened some years ago.  The right lane of the left roadway merged in with the left lane of the right roadway to form the new middle lane of the 3-lane NJTP that is south of the neckdown.  Traffic on the other lanes was restricted from interfering with these two lanes (no changing lanes) and they provided a good amount of room to make the merger.

Reminds me of this underappreciated UK example:

Quote from: kphoger on May 19, 2021, 01:03:15 PM

Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 19, 2021, 12:11:58 AM

Quote from: stridentweasel on May 10, 2021, 06:05:42 AM

Quote from: MCRoads on May 10, 2021, 03:39:43 AM
So, I was perusing google maps near Mobile, AL, and saw this (https://goo.gl/maps/ihFdLUw2YeijB8tCA). Google street view isn't updated, but does it really need to be to show how ugly this looks?

This actually makes a lot of sense, because it allows traffic to either yield and then safely make the quickly upcoming left turn, or use the other lane and bypass the merge without having to yield.

This configuration kind of reminds me of how some on-ramps (UK: slip ramp) join on some UK motorways when there are two lanes merging onto the motorway...

Example 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8605977,0.1898384,545m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-US)

Street View (https://goo.gl/maps/s9viKnUNotjdvaZ19)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: DrSmith on June 04, 2021, 10:21:02 PM
The merge onto Rt 24 in Randolph is better now. It was tough with the old center merge as you around those corners and there is very little sight distance and you are thrown together.

There's the center merge on Rt 42 north in NJ with the Expressway. At least the two parallel for a bit and you can see the other lane before the merge. With that distance there, an overhead sign would be helpful.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Ned Weasel on June 05, 2021, 08:57:39 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 03, 2021, 11:38:15 PM
Interior lane merges are terrible.

That's one thing my state doesn't do that I'm really glad they don't do.

Illinois does them all over the place, and then you have those interior lane merges where you actually have three lanes merging into one: https://goo.gl/maps/53cc9rzY9edkE7XV9

Speaking of that interchanges, I'm tempted to add this to the "WTF Is That?!" category: https://goo.gl/maps/WBxysgprPU8Wy4Dc7 .  On southbound I-57, you have a lane joining the freeway as an auxiliary lane.  But, at about halfway down the length of the auxiliary lane, the stripes disappear, making it an unstriped lane.  And downstream, you have a 3 -> 2+2 split, but, thanks to the lack of striping on the auxiliary lane, there's absolutely no way to discern whether the middle lane is an option lane or the auxiliary lane fans into two lanes.  This thing is truly maddening.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 05, 2021, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: DrSmith on June 04, 2021, 10:21:02 PM
The merge onto Rt 24 in Randolph is better now. It was tough with the old center merge as you around those corners and there is very little sight distance and you are thrown together.

There's the center merge on Rt 42 north in NJ with the Expressway. At least the two parallel for a bit and you can see the other lane before the merge. With that distance there, an overhead sign would be helpful.

A little interesting tidbit with the 42 / Expressway merge. Even though they're only separated by white lines for a short distance, the AC Expressway lanes are 65 mph and the 42 lanes are 55 mph. The 55 limit for all lanes is signed right where the lanes merge together.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: johndoe on June 06, 2021, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 12, 2021, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 11, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Unfamiliar driver:

"Oh nice, 3 lanes that exit"
[image removed]

Then,
"Ah shit, why is this lane ending!!!"
[image removed]

Is there any point to this at all?  I would think that they would just make the right two lanes exit and be done with it. 

Up until 2009, this was actually a 3 lane exit.

The thing is, once this ramp meets the mainline, the mainline becomes 5 lanes, so one lane had to end. And back then, it was the lane on the mainline that ended. I guess the traffic patterns changed as time went on and there were more cars coming from the mainline, and therefore they decided to remove one lane from this ramp.

Here's a guess: could it be that they want to minimize weaving - by ending the right rather than left the upstream freeway wouldn't be as likely to change lanes to right - maybe making it tougher for an upstream ramp to merge?  (I couldn't find the spot in Google so not sure if that's a possibility)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: johndoe on June 06, 2021, 12:45:36 PM
Quote from: jay8g on May 16, 2021, 02:57:53 AM
This may be slightly off topic, but I'm always amused by the lane that appears out of the gorepoint (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.22574,-122.4264435,3a,53.6y,38.35h,80.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr8A7SrpiXoS7we47fo1GiA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) on the stub of SR 7 (and then promptly disappears after the I-5 ramps).

Going the other way, you have two lanes end at almost the same time (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.2280882,-122.4283387,3a,25.2y,138.84h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1RcbpGLjULEPYe06-IGmcQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) with minimal signage, though I doubt there's ever enough traffic for that to be a big issue.

bizarre little route, maybe years ago they expected 7 to extend further south.  You could probably argue what we see now is overbuilt considering the southern limit of the freeway, but I kind of like the NB idea: I'm seeing it like a "poor man's CD" ... anybody in lane 3 is weaving.  It would make lane changes easier and make it obvious who wants to go where (can't always trust turn signals ha!)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: mrsman on June 06, 2021, 02:49:52 PM
Here is an interesting merge on eastbound Union Turnpike in Queens, NY.  There's a lot to take in here.

(Using some older GSVs as there appears to be construction that changes the situation a bit in the newer photos.)

First, you have eastbound traffic in three separate roadways: Jackie Robinson Pkwy on the innermost lanes, then Union Tpke main lanes, then Union Turnpike service lanes.  The main lanes go under Queens Blvd, and the service lanes intersect with Queens Blvd.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.714594,-73.8293753,3a,75y,55.85h,82.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seLtk_IBkm49leBBB-eWzCw!2e0!5s20180701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

At this point, any traffic from the UT service lanes must exit to the left to merge onto the UT main lanes and then merge their way all the way to the left in order to reach Van Wyck Expy north.  (traffic from the Jackie Robinson will have a right hand exit ramp that merges with this left to join in for traffic to Van Wyck north.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7148253,-73.82837,3a,75y,55.85h,82.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swHgQ1N9wifDWqSiWKNZU8w!2e0!5s20180701T000000!7i16384!8i8192

After the Van Wyck ramp exit, the two lanes of UT main merge into one, while the service lanes remain as two lanes with parking.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7153674,-73.8262842,3a,75y,38.82h,74.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSMiwH68VOx7FaY3J1EN_uw!2e0!5s20180701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

[IMO traffic would be much better if the one lane of UT main just merged with the two lane service road to become a three lane UT.  The construction seems to be doing that, but I'm not sure if that's the final configuration.]

Anyway, as you drive along a little bit more, the one lane of UT main will then split into two again.  But the right lane will force a merge into the service lanes.  And this happens right at a major point of decision.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7162396,-73.8226731,3a,75y,61.97h,66.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgUI6WAhcbPH9ULQSpfCmkw!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

The very left lane (what was the lane from the main UT lanes) will go to Union Turnpike.  The middle lane (the left service lane and the traffic that merged in from the main lanes) will go to UT or the GC parkway entrance or to continue on the GC service lanes, and the right lane will continue on the service lanes.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7162554,-73.8218198,3a,75y,69.28h,88.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s53KaHXlTCrSuOnlpmPxm-Q!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

And here is the point of the parkway entrance a few feet further:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7161546,-73.8209648,3a,75y,69.28h,88.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxRUOf2H30LOreqPcbN6kIw!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

So again, all of the following means that traffic from the main UT lanes that wants either the GC parkway entrance or the service lanes has to interact with traffic from the service lanes at the very point that the service lane traffic could be going into multiple directions.  If the lane from main lanes merged in as I had stated up ahead, it would mean that instead of a last minute merge, the traffic from the UT main lanes will have the equivalent of about 2 city blocks to make a single lane change - which IMO is  a lot safer.

THe consturction does the following -- merges in the lane from main UT immediately after the Van Wyck offramp:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7158473,-73.8247332,3a,75y,64.61h,78.01t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6XcqtUr4_siBAKL_Z6sssg!2e0!5s20191001T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Producing a 3 lane UT eastbound with admittedly narrow lanes but clearly delineates where traffic ultimately goes.  Left lane to UT, right lane to GC service lane, and the middle lane to UT, GC Pkwy or GC service road.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7162916,-73.8219297,3a,75y,84.58h,63.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1stQqOectHxfV7gVHB5yNWZg!2e0!5s20191001T000000!7i16384!8i8192

So I hope that when construction concludes, they basically keep the same orientation as they had during construction, except that they make all the lanes standard width.  IMO, it will make the merging here a lot safer.



Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: jakeroot on June 06, 2021, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: johndoe on June 06, 2021, 12:45:36 PM
Quote from: jay8g on May 16, 2021, 02:57:53 AM
This may be slightly off topic, but I'm always amused by the lane that appears out of the gorepoint (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.22574,-122.4264435,3a,53.6y,38.35h,80.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr8A7SrpiXoS7we47fo1GiA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) on the stub of SR 7 (and then promptly disappears after the I-5 ramps).

Going the other way, you have two lanes end at almost the same time (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.2280882,-122.4283387,3a,25.2y,138.84h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1RcbpGLjULEPYe06-IGmcQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) with minimal signage, though I doubt there's ever enough traffic for that to be a big issue.

bizarre little route, maybe years ago they expected 7 to extend further south.  You could probably argue what we see now is overbuilt considering the southern limit of the freeway, but I kind of like the NB idea: I'm seeing it like a "poor man's CD" ... anybody in lane 3 is weaving.  It would make lane changes easier and make it obvious who wants to go where (can't always trust turn signals ha!)

It was definitely intended to go further south, all the way to SR-512 (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1584751,-122.4229345,752m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) and then down further south. Construction was paused in the late 60s and never resumed. So what we have today was originally meant to accept traffic from both S 38th St and multiple interchanges to the south as well, so it would have been about right for that. You can see from the alignment of the concrete panels (https://goo.gl/maps/aFmbqBAbH3aowJ9c6) that it would have been three northbound lanes, and the on-ramp from westbound 38th would have provided an auxiliary lane between that on-ramp and the northbound I-5 on-ramp. I believe the merge from the eastbound 38th (the loop) would have been a merge rather than add-lane.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on June 06, 2021, 03:43:34 PM
Quote from: johndoe on June 06, 2021, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 12, 2021, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 11:06:45 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 11, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Unfamiliar driver:

"Oh nice, 3 lanes that exit"
[image removed]

Then,
"Ah shit, why is this lane ending!!!"
[image removed]

Is there any point to this at all?  I would think that they would just make the right two lanes exit and be done with it. 

Up until 2009, this was actually a 3 lane exit.

The thing is, once this ramp meets the mainline, the mainline becomes 5 lanes, so one lane had to end. And back then, it was the lane on the mainline that ended. I guess the traffic patterns changed as time went on and there were more cars coming from the mainline, and therefore they decided to remove one lane from this ramp.

Here's a guess: could it be that they want to minimize weaving - by ending the right rather than left the upstream freeway wouldn't be as likely to change lanes to right - maybe making it tougher for an upstream ramp to merge?  (I couldn't find the spot in Google so not sure if that's a possibility)

Before 2009, the right-most lane ended on the mainline. Now it's this right lane ending at this ramp shown. There is no weaving in any situation.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: johndoe on June 06, 2021, 06:17:52 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on June 06, 2021, 03:43:34 PM
Before 2009, the right-most lane ended on the mainline. Now it's this right lane ending at this ramp shown. There is no weaving in any situation.
Weird...could you share the google link?
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on June 06, 2021, 06:59:59 PM
Alright.

Ramp Streetview:

2009: 3 lanes ramp
(https://i.imgur.com/EKuXi8D.png)
https://goo.gl/maps/PqoodSeLMyuXjk7ZA

today: 2 lanes ramp, with third lane ending before the bridge
(https://i.imgur.com/Xpx4SWn.png)
https://goo.gl/maps/JLQ3XYkarMJyd47b6

Mainline Streetview:

The red indicates the ramp lanes that are joining the mainline, and the blue indicates the mainline lanes.

2009: right-most lane of mainline ends, with 3 lanes coming from the ramp
(https://i.imgur.com/GuA8yEf.png)
https://goo.gl/maps/jxJvHrZcbWSm8d4r6

today: 2 lanes coming from ramp, mainline maintains 3 lanes
(https://i.imgur.com/XUHvbpY.png)
https://goo.gl/maps/TGHy31ax2evtdezj6
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: johndoe on June 06, 2021, 11:03:35 PM
Thanks for the links.  See how WB has 5 lanes over Dixon Road, and lane 6 comes on from Martin Grove?  Since that lane goes all the way to the 427 diverge, that's a weaving section.  So maybe they thought if they eliminated the option lane it'd be tougher for Martin Grove vehicles to get on and find gaps. (401 to 427 will push further right)

I wonder why that 3rd lane didn't continue til about Eglinton- looks there is a pretty decent straight (tangent) section there.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on June 06, 2021, 11:22:52 PM
Quote from: johndoe on June 06, 2021, 11:03:35 PM
Thanks for the links.  See how WB has 5 lanes over Dixon Road, and lane 6 comes on from Martin Grove?  Since that lane goes all the way to the 427 diverge, that's a weaving section.  So maybe they thought if they eliminated the option lane it'd be tougher for Martin Grove vehicles to get on and find gaps. (401 to 427 will push further right)

I wonder why that 3rd lane didn't continue til about Eglinton- looks there is a pretty decent straight (tangent) section there.

Ohhhhhhhh I see what you mean now. Yeah you're probably right. As for the 3rd lane continuing, maybe because they wanted to avoid drivers trying to merge on a curve? Since if you drive this section regularly, you'd probably try to switch out of the lane early
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: bcroadguy on June 17, 2021, 06:58:58 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 03, 2021, 11:38:15 PM
Interior lane merges are terrible.  By design, they leave little room for drivers to be able to get into proper position.  I understand when 2 2-lane roads merge into a 3-lane road that this type of merge is done so as not to give priority to either route - but it is still a problem.  Give MassDOT some kudos for fixing the merge from hell on MA 24, as mentioned above.

Perhaps the only version of interior lane merge that was done safely was the merge on the NJTP just south of exit 8A, before the road was widened some years ago.  The right lane of the left roadway merged in with the left lane of the right roadway to form the new middle lane of the 3-lane NJTP that is south of the neckdown.  Traffic on the other lanes was restricted from interfering with these two lanes (no changing lanes) and they provided a good amount of room to make the merger.  Safe merge when traffic was light, horrible merge that cause miles-long backups during busy times.  Thank goodness they widened this a few year ago to keep the dual roadway setup for several more miles south.

Here's a GSV from 2012:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3377398,-74.4793688,3a,75y,212.07h,88.02t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP1CUNHc-LygPoCiHgVOcIw!2e0!5s20120601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Here's an example of an interior lane merge that I hate, largely because it is so unnecessary.  In West Sacramento, the 2-lane CA-275 (Tower Bridge Gateway) merges in with the 3-lane US 50 to create a 4-lane US 50.  Unlike when two freeways come together, there isn't that much traffic on CA 275.  CA 275 should form one lane prior to merging with US 50 and then just merge into US 50's fourth lane.  I lived in the area, and when I was driving on CA 275, I'd always drive only in the right lane to avoid this point of merger.


https://www.google.com/maps/@38.576595,-121.5293029,3a,75y,274.33h,90.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stsDtfhT9YFHc8tAynmjR8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3

I was going to post this (https://www.google.com/maps/@49.3609234,-123.2698874,3a,18.6y,73.92h,87.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh3PFHNRIRbEebjiXN7Jo5Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) interior lane merge, because somehow it is one of only two I've ever encountered and I hate it, but that Sacramento example is sooo much worse.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: jakeroot on June 17, 2021, 11:25:57 AM
I'm still very much on the fence about interior merging. I can see why they are hated, but I really think they're not as bad as we're thinking.

The main advantage (I think I mentioned this before) is that an interior merge allows for two continuous lanes, whereas ending a lane does not. If a two lane on-ramp shrinks to one lane prior to the merge, the effective capacity of that merge is limited by the capacity of that single-lane segment (something else ahead or prior notwithstanding). With an interior merge, both lanes can continue onto the freeway without "losing" a lane: the left lane merges into through traffic, and the right lane is simply added on. There is also the unintentional advantage of traffic "staying right" to avoid using the interior merge. Mainline capacity is slightly hindered, but this could be advantageous depending on the situation*.

On the flip side: there is no "escape" for the interior merge. I can understand this argument, but would rebut (A) traffic still has two options for merging (left or right, although I recognize the Vancouver example above does not permit this...sigh) and (B) if they are long enough, there should be more than enough room to complete a merge anyway.

In short: properly-designed interior merges may actually be my favorite (I-69 @ Indy's ring road near Fishers is the example I know best), but they need to be designed well. If they're not, lane dropping may be superior. Excess mainline capacity could be used by an interior merge as well.

*Dropping a mainline lane is another option, but I think the flexibility of the interior merge is still better since it allows traffic to respond to current conditions. As opposed to a permanent lane drop, which could be undesirable when the merge is quiet but the mainlines are busy. Exceptionally busy on-ramps may also benefit from a three or four lane meter.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Dirt Roads on June 17, 2021, 09:05:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 17, 2021, 11:25:57 AM
I'm still very much on the fence about interior merging. I can see why they are hated, but I really think they're not as bad as we're thinking.

The main advantage (I think I mentioned this before) is that an interior merge allows for two continuous lanes, whereas ending a lane does not. If a two lane on-ramp shrinks to one lane prior to the merge, the effective capacity of that merge is limited by the capacity of that single-lane segment (something else ahead or prior notwithstanding). With an interior merge, both lanes can continue onto the freeway without "losing" a lane: the left lane merges into through traffic, and the right lane is simply added on. There is also the unintentional advantage of traffic "staying right" to avoid using the interior merge. Mainline capacity is slightly hindered, but this could be advantageous depending on the situation*.

On the flip side: there is no "escape" for the interior merge. I can understand this argument, but would rebut (A) traffic still has two options for merging (left or right, although I recognize the Vancouver example above does not permit this...sigh) and (B) if they are long enough, there should be more than enough room to complete a merge anyway.

In short: properly-designed interior merges may actually be my favorite (I-69 @ Indy's ring road near Fishers is the example I know best), but they need to be designed well. If they're not, lane dropping may be superior. Excess mainline capacity could be used by an interior merge as well.

*Dropping a mainline lane is another option, but I think the flexibility of the interior merge is still better since it allows traffic to respond to current conditions. As opposed to a permanent lane drop, which could be undesirable when the merge is quiet but the mainlines are busy. Exceptionally busy on-ramps may also benefit from a three or four lane meter.

There used to be an interior merge in downtown Charleston, West Virginia where I-64 westbound splits from I-77 northbound.  Originally, the [straightline] had two lanes coming from I-77/I-79 and the [onramp] was the two lanes of I-64.  Since most of the traffic was on the I-64 side and they were slowed by the Y-curve beneath the [straightline], the interior merge seemed to work quite well.  I'm guessing that they had some problems, because its now switched over so the [straightline] drops a lane to allow unrestricted flow from I-64.  I'm sure this is problematic at times, as the slow lane from I-77/I-79 is forced all the way over to the far left lane, and any traffic headed for the Fort Hill exit (Exit 59A for US-119, now called the Southridge exit by locals) has got a heck of chore to make it all the way over.  Since all of this is on a viaduct system (including the I-64 onramp), it's a wild ride here during icy conditions.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: sprjus4 on June 17, 2021, 11:04:38 PM
My issue with interior merges is they often occur unsigned, and for an out-of-state motorist unfamiliar with the setup, could create a false sense of security there's two lanes as they are driving alongside another motorist, little knowing that lane dumps into the other, which could result in a sideswipe collision.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: roadfro on June 20, 2021, 06:41:33 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 17, 2021, 11:04:38 PM
My issue with interior merges is they often occur unsigned, and for an out-of-state motorist unfamiliar with the setup, could create a false sense of security there's two lanes as they are driving alongside another motorist, little knowing that lane dumps into the other, which could result in a sideswipe collision.

This. The couple that I've encountered were in California (I don't recall locations) someplace I was unfamiliar with, and the signage either didn't suggest an interior merge or was non-existent. In one case, it was stop-and-go traffic so I was able to figure it out without incident, but I wasn't prepared for it.

Interior merges are somewhat against typical driver expectation, so I'd rather they not be used. But in certain circumstances, they could be fine if designed well–clear signage and markings are definitely needed.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: mrsman on June 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 20, 2021, 06:41:33 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 17, 2021, 11:04:38 PM
My issue with interior merges is they often occur unsigned, and for an out-of-state motorist unfamiliar with the setup, could create a false sense of security there's two lanes as they are driving alongside another motorist, little knowing that lane dumps into the other, which could result in a sideswipe collision.

This. The couple that I've encountered were in California (I don't recall locations) someplace I was unfamiliar with, and the signage either didn't suggest an interior merge or was non-existent. In one case, it was stop-and-go traffic so I was able to figure it out without incident, but I wasn't prepared for it.

Interior merges are somewhat against typical driver expectation, so I'd rather they not be used. But in certain circumstances, they could be fine if designed well–clear signage and markings are definitely needed.


https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0645381,-118.2505999,3a,75y,330.14h,72.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swl_Vo5tkgsVl9g6Cj6XEDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

On US 101 just north of the 110 freeway, just oustdie of Downtown LA, there is an inside lane merge as well.  The leftmost lane coming from the 110 combined ramp merges in with the rightmost lane of US 101.  From the vantage point of the GSV posted above, it appears that each movement will come into its own lane.  But as you advance, you see that there is an interior merge.  But as this area is so frequently stop and go, it is generally not a safety problem, but is probably part of the reason why this is so constantly congested.  If they did not do an interior lane merge, it might lead to even more congestion, particularly if you limit traffic from 110 to only two lanes instead of three.

The reason why the Sacramento one [that I posted earlier] is so insidious in my opinion, is because it is simply unnecessary.  The on-ramp is coming from the defunct CA-275, which was once a mini-freeway from Downtown Sac to this merge, but it has since been downgraged into a boulevard.  The traffic level is so much lower now, so there is no reason why the two lanes of the boulevard couldn't merge into one lane and then later merge as one lane onto US 50.  The interior lane merge only provides danger here - there is no congestion benefit to speak of.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: fwydriver405 on June 20, 2021, 11:42:12 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
On US 101 just north of the 110 freeway, just outside of Downtown LA, there is an inside lane merge as well.  The leftmost lane coming from the 110 combined ramp merges in with the rightmost lane of US 101.  From the vantage point of the GSV posted above, it appears that each movement will come into its own lane.  But as you advance, you see that there is an interior merge.  But as this area is so frequently stop and go, it is generally not a safety problem, but is probably part of the reason why this is so constantly congested.  If they did not do an interior lane merge, it might lead to even more congestion, particularly if you limit traffic from 110 to only two lanes instead of three.

The reason why the Sacramento one [that I posted earlier] is so insidious in my opinion, is because it is simply unnecessary.  The on-ramp is coming from the defunct CA-275, which was once a mini-freeway from Downtown Sac to this merge, but it has since been downgraded into a boulevard.  The traffic level is so much lower now, so there is no reason why the two lanes of the boulevard couldn't merge into one lane and then later merge as one lane onto US 50.  The interior lane merge only provides danger here - there is no congestion benefit to speak of.

For the same reasons bolded above... I wonder why the I-80 / US 101 interchange in downtown San Francisco (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7686899,-122.4070322,727m/data=!3m1!1e3) is always congested or if even the interior lane merge is even needed for all movements. Maybe the interior lane merge for this interchange was chosen to prevent lane diving from these movements for drivers wanting to exit within a short distance?

- Traffic coming from I-80 W wanting to follow US 101 Northbound via a TOTSO movement, or to Mission St / Dubois St, ~500 m
- Traffic coming from US 101 SB / Central Fwy to I-80 EB wanting to exit to Exit 1 (Seventh St), ~300 m
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: roadfro on June 21, 2021, 09:56:09 AM
^ Ah, thank you. Pretty sure that I-80 WB to US 101 NB interior merge was one of the ones I've encountered. And it's an incredibly short merge with no signs whatsoever. Sure, there's a yellow beacon, but that does a crapload of good if there's not a sign explaining the beacon...
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Tom958 on June 21, 2021, 02:09:02 PM
On the Schuylkill Expressway, the two two-lane onramps for Penrose Avenue and Passyunk Avenue-Oregon Avenue combine with the two-lane mainline for I-76 (which is on the right!), each compressing from two lanes to one and forming a single three-lane roadway... in less than 600 feet. And the lane that both lanes of I-76 cram into is dropped at the next exit, another 2/3 mile downstream. WTF, indeed. Well, this is the Schuylkill Expressway.

(https://i.imgur.com/m3b1EnG.png?1)

Here's the view in the opposite direction (https://goo.gl/maps/gSAj3NVTWrNGDeFB9). It has the same configuration but is easier to comprehend.

I don't understand why they don't at least stripe the two onramps down to one lane apiece before the convergence.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: mrsman on June 21, 2021, 02:54:55 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 21, 2021, 09:56:09 AM
^ Ah, thank you. Pretty sure that I-80 WB to US 101 NB interior merge was one of the ones I've encountered. And it's an incredibly short merge with no signs whatsoever. Sure, there's a yellow beacon, but that does a crapload of good if there's not a sign explaining the beacon...

It seems to me that the design of the I-80/US 101 interchange was one that involved symmetry.  There was an expectation with a full Central Freeway (and a Panhandle Freeway) that each of the three legs of that interchange would have more or less equivalent traffic and that one way of equalizing the effects was to incorporate the interior merge.  If two 2-lane ramps merge together into a 3-lane road, how can one favor one route over the other, so both routes will merge together into the middle lane.  And this seems to be designed with interior merges at all three merging in points.

But given the current realities that the north leg of US 101 is not going all the way to the GG Bridge as a freeway (and in fact was even shortened considerably from what was constructed all the way to Turk/Gough has been truncated by more than a mile to Market/Octavia), that it makes sense to rethink the layout of the interchange.  The 101 north leg is now quite short and is basically a glorified onramp/offramp.  There is not as much need for this leg to be served by this branch to have two lanes on each segment as it comes into the merge.  So if the interchange  lane lines were repainted so that the 101-80 approach were considered a thru freeway from Oakland to San Jose and the 101 north approache were considered an exit and entrance to Market/Octavia, then all of the interior merges here can be eliminated.  Any two lane ramp coming from Market/Octavia should merge together into one lane prior to joining the 101-80 thru traffic, on the merges in both directions.  Likewise, the 80 WB two lane ramp to US 101 north should merge into one lane prior to joining the two lanes coming from San Jose.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Finrod on July 05, 2021, 11:20:38 PM
Where the southbound Edens Expressway in Chicago (I-94 East) joins the Kennedy Expressway (I-90 East) headed towards downtown Chicago, the leftmost lane of 94 and the rightmost lane of 90 have to merge immediately:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9610668,-87.7440178,3a,75y,131.58h,97.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTvaWhdG6blkBt4MhlUHQzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

On the north side of Atlanta, the ramp from I-285 East to Georgia 400 North is a left merge with zero taper; it's a leftover from when 400 didn't go south of 285.  At least this one is being fixed; here's a shot of it from 2016 before the construction began.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9107101,-84.3567697,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sI-ouxTMURPuoWA9XyxJyNQ!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: andrepoiy on July 28, 2021, 10:43:34 PM
On the topic of center-lane merges, I encountered my first one somewhere in Montreal when I was there like a day ago. I think it was on QC138, but I don't remember exactly. I had no idea and no warning either, however it was at night so I didn't actually deal with any traffic.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Bruce on July 28, 2021, 11:08:15 PM
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.7938766,-122.2922886,3a,26y,189.13h,86.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0hcHaKGIggyydrt-pb-4WQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) on 44th Avenue in Mountlake Terrace, WA always gets me:

(https://i.imgur.com/TTNuZB1.jpeg)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: mrsman on July 29, 2021, 10:13:23 AM
^^^^^

It seems like the sign conflicts with the road markings.  Does the right lane yield to the left on merging, or is it a zipper merge where both lanes are supposed to take turns?
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: bcroadguy on August 14, 2021, 04:27:42 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 29, 2021, 10:13:23 AM
^^^^^

It seems like the sign conflicts with the road markings.  Does the right lane yield to the left on merging, or is it a zipper merge where both lanes are supposed to take turns?

Yeah that sign is very strange. Based on the pavement markings it looks like a typical right lane ending situation to me. The only somewhat weird (but not really) thing about it, other than the sign, is that the through lane shifts a bit to make room for a left turn lane and bike lane.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 14, 2021, 11:59:01 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 29, 2021, 10:13:23 AM
^^^^^

It seems like the sign conflicts with the road markings.  Does the right lane yield to the left on merging, or is it a zipper merge where both lanes are supposed to take turns?

Both lanes are always supposed to take turns. If the road is jammed, it's not expected traffic in the right lane will wait until the left lane is completely cleared.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Revive 755 on August 14, 2021, 12:22:59 PM
Quote from: Finrod on July 05, 2021, 11:20:38 PM
Where the southbound Edens Expressway in Chicago (I-94 East) joins the Kennedy Expressway (I-90 East) headed towards downtown Chicago, the leftmost lane of 94 and the rightmost lane of 90 have to merge immediately:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9610668,-87.7440178,3a,75y,131.58h,97.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTvaWhdG6blkBt4MhlUHQzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Yet the entrance ramp from Montrose gets an auxiliary lane to the Kedzie Avenue/Iriving Park Exit.  Seems backwards to give that ramp a better merge than mainline freeway traffic gets, especially  when there is another entrance only about a third of a mile to the north.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: roadman65 on August 14, 2021, 12:29:26 PM
Interesting border marking on the lower right.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51377603696_63a176fd63_c.jpg)
Interstate Bridge on I-5 North at OR/WA Line.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Scott5114 on August 14, 2021, 02:30:17 PM
On northbound I-35 in OKC, the right lane ends just after the gore at both the ramp to I-240 and the ramp to S.E. 66th Street. This isn't signed at all, by the way, so it catches drivers not familiar with the situation unaware. Why not just do a typical Exit Only situation?

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3864017,-97.4950737,143m/data=!3m1!1e3
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Ned Weasel on August 16, 2021, 12:37:18 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on June 21, 2021, 02:09:02 PM
On the Schuylkill Expressway, the two two-lane onramps for Penrose Avenue and Passyunk Avenue-Oregon Avenue combine with the two-lane mainline for I-76 (which is on the right!), each compressing from two lanes to one and forming a single three-lane roadway... in less than 600 feet. And the lane that both lanes of I-76 cram into is dropped at the next exit, another 2/3 mile downstream. WTF, indeed. Well, this is the Schuylkill Expressway.

Here's the view in the opposite direction (https://goo.gl/maps/gSAj3NVTWrNGDeFB9). It has the same configuration but is easier to comprehend.

I don't understand why they don't at least stripe the two onramps down to one lane apiece before the convergence.

I remember noticing that a long time ago when I took an airport shuttle in Philly, and I definitely had an internal "WTF" take when I noticed two lanes suddenly merging in the middle of the other lanes.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 08, 2023, 02:25:02 PM
Reviving a dormant thread, but noticed this the last time I drove into Boston. I normally take Exit 63 instead of 66 coming from the north via I-95 to get to US Route 1, but took Exit 66 the last time around and noticed this:

Before the change, traffic coming from I-95 S Exit 66 had two thru lanes and traffic coming from US Route 1 SB merged with the exiting I-95 traffic. An example of the former configuration is here (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5396505,-70.9873595,3a,30.3y,207.06h,87.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s54R-c5RTuFrpYaRw7iIMHg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Sometimes US 1 traffic would drive on the shoulder if traffic was heavy (and the fact this is a short merge), but that's a completly different problem.

Sometime in 2022, the configuration was changed so that the right lane coming from I-95 SB Exit 66 ends as US Route 1 traffic is merging (Overview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5387283,-70.9877037,211m/data=!3m1!1e3), Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5394683,-70.9873404,3a,28.5y,219.8h,86.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDrji_4vGZvqz4QxiPwTPhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)). This new configutation gives US Route 1 traffic an added lane instead of having to merge with exiting I-95 traffic. What caught me offguard was, although there were signs saying the right lane ended (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5422485,-70.9856121,3a,29.9y,227.76h,90.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf9tpc6T4bUs7LfA830ZtkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), I did not expect the right lane to end right at the gore point of merging US 1 traffic. Curious to know why the lane ends here instead of further back up the ramp before US Route 1 SB re-adds a lane onto the mainline.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 08, 2023, 02:49:38 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 08, 2023, 02:25:02 PM
Sometime in 2022, the configuration was changed so that the right lane coming from I-95 SB Exit 66 ends as US Route 1 traffic is merging (Overview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5387283,-70.9877037,211m/data=!3m1!1e3), Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5394683,-70.9873404,3a,28.5y,219.8h,86.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDrji_4vGZvqz4QxiPwTPhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)). This new configutation gives US Route 1 traffic an added lane instead of having to merge with exiting I-95 traffic. What caught me offguard was, although there were signs saying the right lane ended (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5422485,-70.9856121,3a,29.9y,227.76h,90.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf9tpc6T4bUs7LfA830ZtkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), I did not expect the right lane to end right at the gore point of merging US 1 traffic. Curious to know why the lane ends here instead of further back up the ramp before US Route 1 SB re-adds a lane onto the mainline.

I don't like the look of that. I really think they should have ended the lane before the two ramps meet, rather than right where the lanes converge. I'm not aware of a specific rule against that kind of setup, but I'm also not aware of any precedent for it.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 13, 2023, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on April 08, 2023, 02:49:38 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 08, 2023, 02:25:02 PM
Sometime in 2022, the configuration was changed so that the right lane coming from I-95 SB Exit 66 ends as US Route 1 traffic is merging (Overview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5387283,-70.9877037,211m/data=!3m1!1e3), Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5394683,-70.9873404,3a,28.5y,219.8h,86.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDrji_4vGZvqz4QxiPwTPhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)). This new configutation gives US Route 1 traffic an added lane instead of having to merge with exiting I-95 traffic. What caught me offguard was, although there were signs saying the right lane ended (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5422485,-70.9856121,3a,29.9y,227.76h,90.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf9tpc6T4bUs7LfA830ZtkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), I did not expect the right lane to end right at the gore point of merging US 1 traffic. Curious to know why the lane ends here instead of further back up the ramp before US Route 1 SB re-adds a lane onto the mainline.

I don't like the look of that. I really think they should have ended the lane before the two ramps meet, rather than right where the lanes converge. I'm not aware of a specific rule against that kind of setup, but I'm also not aware of any precedent for it.

I'm curious to know why MassDOT would change this from something that seemed better to having the right lane not having priority? It wasn't just me who was caught offguard, I saw a few close calls with other drivers not expecting this strange configuration.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 15, 2023, 12:46:48 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 13, 2023, 12:30:18 AM
I'm curious to know why MassDOT would change this from something that seemed better to having the right lane not having priority? It wasn't just me who was caught offguard, I saw a few close calls with other drivers not expecting this strange configuration.

I don't blame them for wanting to give US 1 a continuous lane instead of forcing it into a merge. But I think they should have narrowed the ramp coming from I-95 down to a single lane, about 1000 feet or so before the ramps meet, instead of right where all the lanes meet. It just seems like good practice to separate two merges from each other rather than having them occur in the same place.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: sprjus4 on April 15, 2023, 01:12:16 PM
From the strict viewpoint of traffic flow, I understand why this was implemented, but when you take into account reality of drivers, this is just asking for accidents.

It almost reminds of situations like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/qqUoSHVdVJDQ7abA7?g_st=ic), this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/nxv4F68tVMZ7CDFH7?g_st=ic), or this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gc1LjJprChoScUjEA?g_st=ic).

Kentucky seemed to love them on their I-69 system interchange projects.
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 15, 2023, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 15, 2023, 01:12:16 PM
From the strict viewpoint of traffic flow, I understand why this was implemented, but when you take into account reality of drivers, this is just asking for accidents.

It almost reminds of situations like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/qqUoSHVdVJDQ7abA7?g_st=ic), this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/nxv4F68tVMZ7CDFH7?g_st=ic), or this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gc1LjJprChoScUjEA?g_st=ic).

Kentucky seemed to love them on their I-69 system interchange projects.

Those examples are garden-variety center lane merges (sometimes called "2+2=3" merges). I do see the similarity, to be honest. And I'm not a fan of them either. I prefer having an outside lane ending either before or after the convergence. But at least these merges are prevalent enough to be familiar to most drivers, except maybe in states that don't use them. (I can't think of any that exist in Kansas or Missouri, but they're all over Illinois.)
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: MASTERNC on April 23, 2023, 08:08:17 PM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on April 15, 2023, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 15, 2023, 01:12:16 PM
From the strict viewpoint of traffic flow, I understand why this was implemented, but when you take into account reality of drivers, this is just asking for accidents.

It almost reminds of situations like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/qqUoSHVdVJDQ7abA7?g_st=ic), this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/nxv4F68tVMZ7CDFH7?g_st=ic), or this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gc1LjJprChoScUjEA?g_st=ic).

Kentucky seemed to love them on their I-69 system interchange projects.

Those examples are garden-variety center lane merges (sometimes called "2+2=3" merges). I do see the similarity, to be honest. And I'm not a fan of them either. I prefer having an outside lane ending either before or after the convergence. But at least these merges are prevalent enough to be familiar to most drivers, except maybe in states that don't use them. (I can't think of any that exist in Kansas or Missouri, but they're all over Illinois.)

West Virginia loves these for freeway-to-freeway interchanges.  They even have their own "Left Lane Merge" warning sign

https://goo.gl/maps/kUXpR7JcpJHLQkMH8
Title: Lane Merges: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the “WTF Is That?!”
Post by: mrsman on April 28, 2023, 02:47:52 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 13, 2023, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on April 08, 2023, 02:49:38 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 08, 2023, 02:25:02 PM
Sometime in 2022, the configuration was changed so that the right lane coming from I-95 SB Exit 66 ends as US Route 1 traffic is merging (Overview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5387283,-70.9877037,211m/data=!3m1!1e3), Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5394683,-70.9873404,3a,28.5y,219.8h,86.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDrji_4vGZvqz4QxiPwTPhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)). This new configutation gives US Route 1 traffic an added lane instead of having to merge with exiting I-95 traffic. What caught me offguard was, although there were signs saying the right lane ended (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5422485,-70.9856121,3a,29.9y,227.76h,90.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf9tpc6T4bUs7LfA830ZtkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), I did not expect the right lane to end right at the gore point of merging US 1 traffic. Curious to know why the lane ends here instead of further back up the ramp before US Route 1 SB re-adds a lane onto the mainline.

I don't like the look of that. I really think they should have ended the lane before the two ramps meet, rather than right where the lanes converge. I'm not aware of a specific rule against that kind of setup, but I'm also not aware of any precedent for it.

I'm curious to know why MassDOT would change this from something that seemed better to having the right lane not having priority? It wasn't just me who was caught offguard, I saw a few close calls with other drivers not expecting this strange configuration.

A real curiosity.  So under the old configuration 2 lanes of US 1, merged into one, and then merged into the traffic that was exiting from I-95.

Under the modern configuration, 2 lanes of US 1, merged into one and at the same time the two lanes from the I-95 exit are also merging into one, but unfortunately right at the point that the US1 traffic is coming in.  If the merger of the two lanes of I-95 traffic happened earlier, it would likely be an easier merge.

I am reminded of a similar situation in Los Angeles, but it comes with one glaring difference.  US 101 exit to SB Highland Ave.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/1900+N+Highland+Ave,+Los+Angeles,+CA+90068/@34.1154026,-118.3371374,370m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x80c2bf2285dd3807:0x6d424aab0a95fbeb!8m2!3d34.105659!4d-118.3369275!16s%2Fg%2F11bw3z3_44

The street (Highland) ultimately ends up with three lanes instead of two.  The two lanes from the freeway off-ramp merge into one and become the right lane, while the two lanes from the side street (Cauhuenga Blvd W) remain as two lanes (of Highland) , even after the merge.  Based on the traffic patterns when I lived there, there were so many more people taking the freeway exit, that the freeway exit should have had two lanes and the two lanes of the street should merge into one (or force the left lane to turn toward the Pilgrimage Bridge at the next intersection).  Regardless of the traffic involved, at the very least the merging is safe because ultimately the traffic from Caughnga and US 101 do not need to merge into the same lane, only the traffic from US 101 exit has to merge down from two lanes to one.
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