NASCAR

[Max Rockatansky]

I was digging the wreck fest the race started to turn into it is once the water settled on the track.  Either way, definitely unique to see a NASCAR race in the rain.

[NWI_Irish96]

I was digging the wreck fest the race started to turn into it is once the water settled on the track.  Either way, definitely unique to see a NASCAR race in the rain.

I'm glad there are more road courses. For such a long time, there were only two, and that was ridiculous because when they made up such a small portion of the schedule and you didn't have to care a bit about them to be a championship team. They either needed to get rid of them completely or add more of them, and I'm glad they chose the latter.

[Max Rockatansky]

I was digging the wreck fest the race started to turn into it is once the water settled on the track.  Either way, definitely unique to see a NASCAR race in the rain.

I'm glad there are more road courses. For such a long time, there were only two, and that was ridiculous because when they made up such a small portion of the schedule and you didn't have to care a bit about them to be a championship team. They either needed to get rid of them completely or add more of them, and I'm glad they chose the latter.

I'm fine with the more diverse set of tracks, the Bristol dirt race was also something I enjoyed.  I was never a particular fan of all the 1.5 mile clone tracks that began to pop up when NASCAR began becoming mainstream.  The series had a history of being on a wider assortment of tracks pre-1972 so I don't see any reason why things couldn't be shook up now.

[tradephoric]

The biggest redeeming quality of the race at COTA was the fact that it did rain.  It definitely added some excitement to the race and without it i probably would have fallen asleep watching. 

[SP Cook]

Upon seeing the Sonoma road course for the first time, the late Dale Earnhardt said, "They (sic) has got to be a three quarters mile dirt track out here somewhere they could buy, pave, and put seats around".

Dale was right.  The COTA race was an embarrassment and a failure because is was pre-ordained to be such.  The pursuit of "something different" is illogical.  You play football on football fields, you play basketball on basketball courts, you play baseball in baseball parks.  And proper NASCAR races are run on ovals.

[NWI_Irish96]

Upon seeing the Sonoma road course for the first time, the late Dale Earnhardt said, "They (sic) has got to be a three quarters mile dirt track out here somewhere they could buy, pave, and put seats around".

Dale was right.  The COTA race was an embarrassment and a failure because is was pre-ordained to be such.  The pursuit of "something different" is illogical.  You play football on football fields, you play basketball on basketball courts, you play baseball in baseball parks.  And proper NASCAR races are run on ovals.

Maybe it's time to stop judging a sport's existence in 2021 by the thoughts of someone who died 20 years ago, and whose son has already had an entire career and retired.

[jeffandnicole]

Upon seeing the Sonoma road course for the first time, the late Dale Earnhardt said, "They (sic) has got to be a three quarters mile dirt track out here somewhere they could buy, pave, and put seats around".

Dale was right.  The COTA race was an embarrassment and a failure because is was pre-ordained to be such.  The pursuit of "something different" is illogical.  You play football on football fields, you play basketball on basketball courts, you play baseball in baseball parks.  And proper NASCAR races are run on ovals.

Maybe it's time to stop judging a sport's existence in 2021 by the thoughts of someone who died 20 years ago, and whose son has already had an entire career and retired.

Not to mention several NASCAR tracks aren't ovals.

Not to mention rules in those sports have changed over the years.

Not to mention football and basketball games are played on consistently sized fields of play. NASCAR is more like baseball fields. There are some consistent rules. But each course has a unique set of features, similar to the dimensions of the overall baseball field. Even the regulation length of the races can be different, which is a fairly unique trait among sporting events. Baseball games going 7 innings rather than 9 last year on double header days is such an example.

[1995hoo]

.... Baseball games going 7 innings rather than 9 last year on double header days is such an example.

That rule is in place this year as well. Proved controversial earlier this year when a pitcher threw a no-hitter in such a game but was not recognized by MLB as having done so due to a rule enacted in 1991 that says (among other things) you must pitch nine innings to be credited with a no-hitter.

[jeffandnicole]

I did have one question regarding the wipers on the cars...did some of them malfunction? During the rain, some drivers were using them, some weren't, and some seem to have them "shuttering" or only half turning.

One of the most entertaining moments of the race...Kurt Busch threading the needle...https://m.nascar.com/video/franchise/nascar-cup-highlights/kurt-busch-keeps-it-moving-after-running-off-at-cota/ . On a traditional NASCAR track he slams hard into the wall. Here, he goes into what is basically a runaway truck ramp, keeps it moving, and re-enters the track without so much as a yellow flag being issued for the course.

[Max Rockatansky]

Upon seeing the Sonoma road course for the first time, the late Dale Earnhardt said, "They (sic) has got to be a three quarters mile dirt track out here somewhere they could buy, pave, and put seats around".

Dale was right.  The COTA race was an embarrassment and a failure because is was pre-ordained to be such.  The pursuit of "something different" is illogical.  You play football on football fields, you play basketball on basketball courts, you play baseball in baseball parks.  And proper NASCAR races are run on ovals.

Maybe it's time to stop judging a sport's existence in 2021 by the thoughts of someone who died 20 years ago, and whose son has already had an entire career and retired.

See part of the problem with racing in general is that it way too stuck trying to chase the specter of drivers that are long retired and/or dead.  I don't see how yesterday's race was anymore of an embarrassment than a wreck filled super speedway race.  Not mention road course racing has been part of NASCAR even before Dale Earnhardt. 

[74/171FAN]

I did have one question regarding the wipers on the cars...did some of them malfunction? During the rain, some drivers were using them, some weren't, and some seem to have them "shuttering" or only half turning.

One of the most entertaining moments of the race...Kurt Busch threading the needle...https://m.nascar.com/video/franchise/nascar-cup-highlights/kurt-busch-keeps-it-moving-after-running-off-at-cota/ . On a traditional NASCAR track he slams hard into the wall. Here, he goes into what is basically a runaway truck ramp, keeps it moving, and re-enters the track without so much as a yellow flag being issued for the course.

Yeah, I think this is one of the big issues that NASCAR needs to work on moving forward.  It is odd to me that they only use one wiper instead of two like most regular vehicles.

[SP Cook]

Short history of NASCAR.   

It was a, mostly, southern sport.  Then came satellite TV, with 1000s of hours to fill.  ESPN, et al, pointed its cameras at it, and people liked what they saw.  So it expanded.  Building proper oval tracks around the country.  So people could see it locally.  Not really that different from what happened to football 25 or so years earlier, as regular TV became almost universal, and people saw the sport, and liked what they saw.  So it expanded.  Building proper football fields around the country. 

Not 80 yard fields, not fields with flame pits in the middle, not round fields, not gravel covered fields.  No, not trying the be "different", but rather being THE SAME.

Sadly, NASCAR had a generational shift in management, and it listened to people who had no respect for or understanding of the sport.  These bright ideas have created an unprecedented in the entire history of sports rapid decline in its popularity.  Now these bright idea empty suits have decided that the latest gimmick is to have "different" tracks.  Road courses, dirt, and soon city streets, beaches, and probably figure 8s. 

None of this will do anything but further harm the sport.

[1995hoo]

NASCAR used to run a non-points race on a modified figure 8: Suzuka in Japan. They didn't use the entire circuit, however.

NASCAR also used to run on a beach (Daytona) until it was replaced by the speedway there, in part due to the beachfront course being deemed unsafe.

BTW, what exactly is a "proper oval track"? I see a variety of different styles of ovals in use–you have the ubiquitous and much-overdone "trioval" style, but there are also some more unique ones like Darlington, and then there are the various short tracks. IIRC, the old Nazareth Speedway was a D-shaped oval. SP Cook seems to be advocating for all of them to be exactly the same as each other. I guess if you can't understand anything other than "go fast and turn left," that might appeal to you. He probably thinks it's wrong that different ballparks used for baseball have different outfield wall dimensions, too.

I didn't watch much of yesterday's race because we wanted to watch the PGA Championship instead, but I did watch the start in part to see whether they'd make it through the first corner without a big crash. I thought it was rather interesting to see the stock cars running on an F1 circuit.

[NWI_Irish96]

Short history of NASCAR.   

It was a, mostly, southern sport.

NASCAR surged past IndyCar as the most popular motorsport in the US precisely because they stopped being a southern sport.

Let's go through the current and recent top drivers and pick out the drivers who would today be IndyCar drivers instead of NASCAR drivers if NASCAR had remained a southern sport.

To start with, three of the top team owners, Stewart, Penske and Ganassi never get into a NASCAR that is still a southern sport.

The now-retired two best drivers of this century, Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon, are both from California (one via Indiana). Very likely never got into a NASCAR that was still a southern sport.

Kyle Larson and Kevin Harvick are also Californian and probably never get into NASCAR.
Joey Logano from Connecticut almost certainly never considers NASCAR.
Martin Truex Jr from New Jersey unlikely to consider NASCAR.
Brad Keselowski from Michigan might not consider NASCAR (though Michigan is the one non-southern state that has long had strong NASCAR ties due to being the HQ of the manufactureres)
The Busch brothers from Las Vegas probably not going into NASCAR.
Ryan Newman from Indiana definitely never going into NASCAR.

You don't have a lot of top drivers left.

[WillWeaverRVA]

Short history of NASCAR.   

It was a, mostly, southern sport.  Then came satellite TV, with 1000s of hours to fill.  ESPN, et al, pointed its cameras at it, and people liked what they saw.  So it expanded.  Building proper oval tracks around the country.  So people could see it locally.  Not really that different from what happened to football 25 or so years earlier, as regular TV became almost universal, and people saw the sport, and liked what they saw.  So it expanded.  Building proper football fields around the country. 

Not 80 yard fields, not fields with flame pits in the middle, not round fields, not gravel covered fields.  No, not trying the be "different", but rather being THE SAME.

Sadly, NASCAR had a generational shift in management, and it listened to people who had no respect for or understanding of the sport.  These bright ideas have created an unprecedented in the entire history of sports rapid decline in its popularity.  Now these bright idea empty suits have decided that the latest gimmick is to have "different" tracks.  Road courses, dirt, and soon city streets, beaches, and probably figure 8s. 

None of this will do anything but further harm the sport.

Times change.

[mgk920]

To me, NASCAR should go more 'back to its roots' as a bunch of late night moonshine runners tearing along down southern country backroads.  As such, I very much like having road courses on the schedule.  (Maybe add a timed 'rally' stage?    Naaaaah, wouldn't be safe.)  Road courses also more closely simulate the driving that we do every day.  I also wouldn't mind seeing a temporary street course every year, too.

The 'cookie cutter' tracks were an abomination, IMHO.

Road America on the July 4th weekend.  That will be the Cup's first ever foray into Wisconsin and it will be a SUWEET road course race on a SUWEET track!

Mike

[Max Rockatansky]

I had a thought.  How many people remember when the NASCAR Winston Cup Season opened at Riverside on a road course?

[Takumi]

I had a thought.  How many people remember when the NASCAR Winston Cup Season opened at Riverside on a road course?

They also went to the likes of Road America and VIR in the “good old days”.

Dale Jr’s “Ghost Tracks” show also featured a road course in...Georgia I think? that was used a few times in the 50s-60s.
Edit: it was Augusta International Raceway, used in 1964. 3-mile road course.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusta_International_Raceway

[WillWeaverRVA]

I had a thought.  How many people remember when the NASCAR Winston Cup Season opened at Riverside on a road course?

I wasn't alive then but I knew that. Road courses have been part of NASCAR since its inception.

In addition, despite having traditionally Southern roots, NASCAR's inaugural season had two races in Pennsylvania and one in New York. In fact, quite a few early NASCAR races were held in the North, and what is now the Cup Series even raced in Arizona as early as 1951.

They also went to the likes of Road America and VIR in the "good old days" .

Dale Jr's "Ghost Tracks"  show also featured a road course in...Georgia I think? that was used a few times in the 50s-60s.
Edit: it was Augusta International Raceway, used in 1964. 3-mile road course.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusta_International_Raceway

Interesting, I had no idea Fireball Roberts designed that course.

[Takumi]

To me, NASCAR should go more 'back to its roots' as a bunch of late night moonshine runners tearing along down southern country backroads.  As such, I very much like having road courses on the schedule.  (Maybe add a timed 'rally' stage?    Naaaaah, wouldn't be safe.)  Road courses also more closely simulate the driving that we do every day.  I also wouldn't mind seeing a temporary street course every year, too.

The 'cookie cutter' tracks were an abomination, IMHO.

Road America on the July 4th weekend.  That will be the Cup's first ever foray into Wisconsin and it will be a SUWEET road course race on a SUWEET track!

Mike

The Cup series went to Road America once before, all the way back in 1956. The winner, Tim Flock, was quoted by Sports Illustrated as saying “road racing is all right”.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1956/08/20/they-laughed-when-nascars-stock-cars-took-to-the-road-at-elkhart-lake-but-tim-flock-gave-the-show-a-detroit-surprise

Also, my first time going to Charlotte Motor Speedway was to see the inaugural Roval race. Hadn’t considered going there before since it was the prototypical cookie cutter track, despite its age. Bruton Smith, the track owner, passed right by me on the grounds of the track, being chauffeured in a Maybach Mercedes.

[Takumi]

Short history of NASCAR.   

It was a, mostly, southern sport.

NASCAR surged past IndyCar as the most popular motorsport in the US precisely because they stopped being a southern sport.

Let's go through the current and recent top drivers and pick out the drivers who would today be IndyCar drivers instead of NASCAR drivers if NASCAR had remained a southern sport.

To start with, three of the top team owners, Stewart, Penske and Ganassi never get into a NASCAR that is still a southern sport.

The now-retired two best drivers of this century, Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon, are both from California (one via Indiana). Very likely never got into a NASCAR that was still a southern sport.

Kyle Larson and Kevin Harvick are also Californian and probably never get into NASCAR.
Joey Logano from Connecticut almost certainly never considers NASCAR.
Martin Truex Jr from New Jersey unlikely to consider NASCAR.
Brad Keselowski from Michigan might not consider NASCAR (though Michigan is the one non-southern state that has long had strong NASCAR ties due to being the HQ of the manufactureres)
The Busch brothers from Las Vegas probably not going into NASCAR.
Ryan Newman from Indiana definitely never going into NASCAR.

You don't have a lot of top drivers left.

You're probably right about most of those, but NASCAR has had a long-standing minor league presence in the northeast and west coast (the old Busch North/East and Winston West, now the K&N Pro Series), so you may have seen a couple of those. Truex most likely, as his dad was a longtime Busch North driver and he sounds like he's from North Carolina anyway.

We definitely don't see the open wheel exodus, so no Danica in NASCAR, but also likely no Juan Pablo Montoya, who is for my money the most versatile driver so far this century. Wins in NASCAR, F1, IMSA, and IndyCar all in the past 20 years.

[Max Rockatansky]

Short history of NASCAR.   

It was a, mostly, southern sport.

NASCAR surged past IndyCar as the most popular motorsport in the US precisely because they stopped being a southern sport.

Let's go through the current and recent top drivers and pick out the drivers who would today be IndyCar drivers instead of NASCAR drivers if NASCAR had remained a southern sport.

To start with, three of the top team owners, Stewart, Penske and Ganassi never get into a NASCAR that is still a southern sport.

The now-retired two best drivers of this century, Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon, are both from California (one via Indiana). Very likely never got into a NASCAR that was still a southern sport.

Kyle Larson and Kevin Harvick are also Californian and probably never get into NASCAR.
Joey Logano from Connecticut almost certainly never considers NASCAR.
Martin Truex Jr from New Jersey unlikely to consider NASCAR.
Brad Keselowski from Michigan might not consider NASCAR (though Michigan is the one non-southern state that has long had strong NASCAR ties due to being the HQ of the manufactureres)
The Busch brothers from Las Vegas probably not going into NASCAR.
Ryan Newman from Indiana definitely never going into NASCAR.

You don't have a lot of top drivers left.

You're probably right about most of those, but NASCAR has had a long-standing minor league presence in the northeast and west coast (the old Busch North/East and Winston West, now the K&N Pro Series), so you may have seen a couple of those. Truex most likely, as his dad was a longtime Busch North driver and he sounds like he's from North Carolina anyway.

We definitely don't see the open wheel exodus, so no Danica in NASCAR, but also likely no Juan Pablo Montoya, who is for my money the most versatile driver so far this century. Wins in NASCAR, F1, IMSA, and IndyCar all in the past 20 years.

A lot of people forget how popular CART really was until it split up in the 1990s.  It wasn't really until that decade that NASCAR probably surpassed the talent level of a typical open wheel racing field. 

[Takumi]

Short history of NASCAR.   

It was a, mostly, southern sport.

NASCAR surged past IndyCar as the most popular motorsport in the US precisely because they stopped being a southern sport.

Let's go through the current and recent top drivers and pick out the drivers who would today be IndyCar drivers instead of NASCAR drivers if NASCAR had remained a southern sport.

To start with, three of the top team owners, Stewart, Penske and Ganassi never get into a NASCAR that is still a southern sport.

The now-retired two best drivers of this century, Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon, are both from California (one via Indiana). Very likely never got into a NASCAR that was still a southern sport.

Kyle Larson and Kevin Harvick are also Californian and probably never get into NASCAR.
Joey Logano from Connecticut almost certainly never considers NASCAR.
Martin Truex Jr from New Jersey unlikely to consider NASCAR.
Brad Keselowski from Michigan might not consider NASCAR (though Michigan is the one non-southern state that has long had strong NASCAR ties due to being the HQ of the manufactureres)
The Busch brothers from Las Vegas probably not going into NASCAR.
Ryan Newman from Indiana definitely never going into NASCAR.

You don't have a lot of top drivers left.

You're probably right about most of those, but NASCAR has had a long-standing minor league presence in the northeast and west coast (the old Busch North/East and Winston West, now the K&N Pro Series), so you may have seen a couple of those. Truex most likely, as his dad was a longtime Busch North driver and he sounds like he's from North Carolina anyway.

We definitely don't see the open wheel exodus, so no Danica in NASCAR, but also likely no Juan Pablo Montoya, who is for my money the most versatile driver so far this century. Wins in NASCAR, F1, IMSA, and IndyCar all in the past 20 years.

A lot of people forget how popular CART really was until it split up in the 1990s.  It wasn't really until that decade that NASCAR probably surpassed the talent level of a typical open wheel racing field. 

That was reflected, interestingly, in the TV series Home Improvement. For most of the series, Tim was all about open wheel. IndyCar drivers as guests on the show, frequently talking about Indy. In the last season, which was after the split, he plans to go to a NASCAR race for his birthday but doesn't.

Also, I remember the day Ayrton Senna died, Senior paid tribute to him in victory lane first thing in his interview.
https://youtu.be/iq6mVAXegyw
Real recognize real.

[SP Cook]

CART.  A lot of open wheel only fans have this mythology that the CART series and its decision to become an outlaw series when the IRL was formed had something to do with NASCAR's growth.

Truth is NASCAR was far ahead of CART long before the IRL was formed, and in fact, taking control from the CART mismanagement was the prime reason the IRL had to be formed.  CART participation was really not based on "talent", it was a bunch of foreign rich kids who had flunked out of the Formula One progression, combined with a few has beens and never weres.  It was, perhaps, the worst racing series ever.

[Max Rockatansky]

CART.  A lot of open wheel only fans have this mythology that the CART series and its decision to become an outlaw series when the IRL was formed had something to do with NASCAR's growth.

Truth is NASCAR was far ahead of CART long before the IRL was formed, and in fact, taking control from the CART mismanagement was the prime reason the IRL had to be formed.  CART participation was really not based on "talent", it was a bunch of foreign rich kids who had flunked out of the Formula One progression, combined with a few has beens and never weres.  It was, perhaps, the worst racing series ever.

There is certainly a progression from USAC, to CART onwards to the IRL in terms of the diminishing stature of open wheel racing in the United States.  It is hard to argue that probably until the 1980s that NASCAR was even on the same level in terms of driver talent and quality teams compared to CART or even USAC before it.  The further back in time you go with NASCAR the less competitive the racing field gets.  Before the 1980s it wasn't uncommon for a top flight team and driver to win by a lap or more.