Why not get rid of Lake Shore Drive's At-Grade Intersections

[jmacswimmer]

Regarding kernals12's comment about removing L trains, which I interpret as a reference to burying L trains underground (although I'm sure he means just getting rid of the trains altogether), I recall the last time I was in Chicago, I visited my (then-)firm's Chicago office (I don't work for that firm anymore) and I commented on how noisy and unsightly the elevated trains are in the modern world. They unanimously agreed but said they're generally viewed as being a sort of local institution or trademark that most people in Chicago would just as soon preserve as they are–similar to how some sports fans don't want older ballparks like Wrigley Field or Fenway Park replaced even though those ballparks have cramped seating, sometimes obstructed views, and often inadequate facilities like restrooms.

I recall once reading a Tribune article where they interviewed residents along the Brown Line closer to the Kimball end of the line, and they generally had the same consensus - unsightly & noisy, but it's just part of the city.

It takes surprisingly little time of living by the L tracks to get used to the noise.  So they tell me.

(I've never lived next to the L, but I did briefly live/stay next to the UP-W in DuPage County, here–with Metra commuter trains, intermodal hotshots, and coal unit trains running down it at all hours.  It was summer, the apartment had no air conditioning, and I slept in the front room with the door open.  By the time those six weeks were over, I was already used to the trains.)

I recall one of the people they interviewed in above article said the same thing - that after a period of time, the trains just became white noise to her.

(My only direct experience with this is once staying in a hotel inside the Loop near the Washington/Wells station - the first night I definitely noticed the rumbling of passing trains until the L stops around 1/1:30, but on subsequent nights it just blended into the background with all the other city noises.)

[1995hoo]

It takes surprisingly little time of living by the L tracks to get used to the noise.  So they tell me.

(I've never lived next to the L, but I did briefly live/stay next to the UP-W in DuPage County, here–with Metra commuter trains, intermodal hotshots, and coal unit trains running down it at all hours.  It was summer, the apartment had no air conditioning, and I slept in the front room with the door open.  By the time those six weeks were over, I was already used to the trains.)

I believe that. I lived across from an at-grade railroad crossing for three years (the crossing is where the "St" is in "Anderson St" just north of the Durham Freeway, and my building was the one just left of where it says "Trust Taxis") and I slept right through any sort of noise within a week of moving in. The trains themselves weren't the noisy aspect there–it was the train whistles as they approached the crossing. During the day they were damn annoying; if I were on the phone, I'd have to say "hang on, a train is coming through" (my father once remarked on how clearly he could hear the whistle through the phone). But at night once I'd turned in? I wouldn't hear a thing.

I have no sympathy for people who move near an elevated (or even surface) train, or a highway, or an airport, and then complain about the noise.

[kernals12]

Elevated highways aren't nostalgic.

(cue everyone to provide counterexamples)

London's Westway seems to have obtained iconic landmark status.

[skluth]

I've never lived near a busy railroad; the two times I lived next to a track a train only went by once each way every day. I have lived on a couple of air bases. I figure if I can get used to fighter jets taking off and landing all day and night about 500 ft from my room, I could adjust to it. Although working 90+ hours/week, I may have been too tired to care.

[kphoger]

I do have friends who used to live above the Chicago subway, and they never did get used to the... rats.

[jmacswimmer]

I have no sympathy for people who move near an elevated (or even surface) train, or a highway, or an airport, and then complain about the noise.

London's Westway seems to have obtained iconic landmark status.

These 2 posts combined reminded me of some, er, interesting statistics regarding Heathrow & noise complaints (which I first became aware of while studying abroad in the UK):

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-37803205 (a couple years old now, but up until COVID I can't imagine anything changed)
https://www.heathrow.com/company/local-community/noise/operations/runway-alternation (this used to be even more complicated prior to COVID and being able to only use 1 active runway)

[skluth]

I have no sympathy for people who move near an elevated (or even surface) train, or a highway, or an airport, and then complain about the noise.

London's Westway seems to have obtained iconic landmark status.

These 2 posts combined reminded me of some, er, interesting statistics regarding Heathrow & noise complaints (which I first became aware of while studying abroad in the UK):

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-37803205 (a couple years old now, but up until COVID I can't imagine anything changed)
https://www.heathrow.com/company/local-community/noise/operations/runway-alternation (this used to be even more complicated prior to COVID and being able to only use 1 active runway)

I think moving near an airport and complaining about the noise happens in every city where the airport isn't far removed from people. I heard it in St Louis. I heard it in Tidewater. A few years ago a bunch of new expensive homes were built on the north side of Palm Springs, about 1000'-2000' from the first part of the approach/ take-off corridor. Not surprisingly, it didn't take long before some of the new residents started complaining about the noise and took it to a local TV station. They got their whining aired, but everyone ignored them because the airport was there long before they built their high six-figure homes.

[silverback1065]

As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city 

Is it a money issue?

Far cheaper and easier to just make all the LSD intersections roundabouts. Voila, no stoplights. Tracks saved. Everyone wins. 

it could look like keystone parkway in carmel!

[NWI_Irish96]

As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city 

Is it a money issue?

Getting rid of the signal at Chicago is long past due.

As for the other signals, you can't really remove them without just entirely blocking access because of the reasons others have mentioned.

There are ways to get around these signals. The newly revamped Byrne interchange and lower Wacker are a great way to get between LSD and the other expressways.

[Henry]

I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

[The Ghostbuster]

As much as I'd like to see Lake Shore Drive to be completely freeway, the locals would go ballistic. It would never be constructed. Also, there are some places on the roadway that are too close to the lake for ramps to be constructed. Building ramps over the water is probably a no-go.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've never lived near a busy railroad; the two times I lived next to a track a train only went by once each way every day. I have lived on a couple of air bases. I figure if I can get used to fighter jets taking off and landing all day and night about 500 ft from my room, I could adjust to it. Although working 90+ hours/week, I may have been too tired to care.

I lived on the main BNSF freight line in Hanford and lived on a couple bases with fighter jets also.  I kind of just got used to the noise after awhile and it didn't bother me.  The worst was probably cobblestone roads in Jalisco in terms of noise.  I don't recall ever being bothered by the noise of the elevated train when I spent summers in downtown Chicago even though it was about a block over.

[ET21]

The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city 

no

[edwaleni]

For those who don't like the CTA Elevated or the noise it makes, they have already looked into that too.

They found what was making the noise and looked into installing rubber pads between the ties and the steel beams supporting them.

It worked and when they brought it up, people said they wanted the noise kept as is.

Seems people think of that as a part of the Chicago experience and residents use the noise to know when the next train is coming.

So as far as LSD goes, I would just write it off as part of the Chicago experience.

[kernals12]

The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

[hotdogPi]

The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

So do tall buildings, which can be found in every major city downtown in the US.

[jemacedo9]

The El is such a part of the Chicago experience, that in most movies and many TV shows set in Chicago, there is usually a shot of the El, with trains rumbling by, complete with noise. 

[silverback1065]

I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm? 

[jmacswimmer]

The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

So do tall buildings, which can be found in every major city downtown in the US.

Surely elevated freeways & sidewalks would also have the same effect?

The El is such a part of the Chicago experience, that in most movies and many TV shows set in Chicago, there is usually a shot of the El, with trains rumbling by, complete with noise.

And in some, they even ride it as well! (Shameless, The Fugitive, & Little Fockers come to mind)

[ET21]

The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Oh yes, I shiver every 10 seconds a train casts a shadow down upon me 

[kernals12]

The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

So do tall buildings, which can be found in every major city downtown in the US.

Surely elevated freeways & sidewalks would also have the same effect?

The El is such a part of the Chicago experience, that in most movies and many TV shows set in Chicago, there is usually a shot of the El, with trains rumbling by, complete with noise.

And in some, they even ride it as well! (Shameless, The Fugitive, & Little Fockers come to mind)

All of Chicago's highways, except the lightly used Skyway, are at or below grade. And elevated sidewalks would cast shadows on the ground level, but since pedestrians are walking on top of them it's not a problem

[3467]

Actually the Stevenson Ryan and Kennedy have significant elevated sections. No one is testing down the el.

[1995hoo]

Actually the Stevenson Ryan and Kennedy have significant elevated sections. No one is testing down the el.

Take note of what it says below kernals12's avatar. His comments have to be construed in view of his agenda, which he doesn't like to concede is fictional. Whether this has something to do with this recent post of his is something I don't know and on which I will not speculate.

[3467]

I see 1995hoo.

[jmacswimmer]

Actually the Stevenson Ryan and Kennedy have significant elevated sections. No one is testing down the el.

Plus a short piece of Congress just east of the Circle.