The Opportunity in Former Gas Stations

[hotdogPi]

From what I can tell, OnCue isn't even a store. It's a streaming service that doesn't even exist anymore.

[CoreySamson]

While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it.  Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads?  Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?

I think it would be reasonable to say that all new freeways with frontage roads should have one-way frontage roads with turnarounds, but leave the option of not building frontage roads on the table. Frontage roads do have a bunch of drawbacks in terms of the types of land use they tend to promote.

Who says you need a frontage road to have a Texas U-turn?

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1630743,-95.4534866,442m/data=!3m1!1e3

[vdeane]

While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it.  Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads?  Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?

I think it would be reasonable to say that all new freeways with frontage roads should have one-way frontage roads with turnarounds, but leave the option of not building frontage roads on the table. Frontage roads do have a bunch of drawbacks in terms of the types of land use they tend to promote.

There are intended and unintended consequences of EVs replacing the ICE fleet and as it relates to C-stores, I see the following.
1. EVs take much longer to charge at present than ICE vehicles, so even if 90% of charging will be at home, the total dwell time of vehicles (and people) at a C-store equipped with chargers may be equal or longer than now, presenting more opportunities for C-stores to sell their other stuff.
[...]
3. If the demise of ICEs means the demise of C-stores, why the emerging trend of refueling "palaces" like Buc-ees and Wally's? Surely they have a long-term view that is more informed than ours.

1. I would think this would lead to more Sheetz-type stores with nice restrooms, food you can eat for lunch, and seating over the current model of a few snacks and maybe a single-stall restroom.  Stuff like this I don't see surviving.

This is exactly what I'm thinking–the small hole-in-the-wall 7-11s and such will go away and the market will tilt toward things like QuikTrip/OnCue/Sheetz/Wawa/Buc-ee's* because those offer some form of something to do while you're waiting for the charge.

You may even see Walmart/Target install chargers all over their lots so that they become an attractive place to make a pit stop. It's easy to kill time wandering around a Walmart or Target.


*Yeah, I just put OnCue in the same category as Sheetz/Wawa. Deal with it, Easterners.

WalMart is actually the location of a good number of Electrify America stations.  It's to the point where going to WalMart is basically mandatory if roadtripping in a non-Tesla EV.

Regarding Wawa, they don't actually have any indoor seating in their stores.  No outdoor seating either, with the exception of their Florida locations (and maybe a newer one in Philly).  That will have to change if they want people to eat lunch there while charging their car.  Eating in a car is not fun, even while parked, at least if you don't want to get the inside of your car all dirty.

[jeffandnicole]

...So, yeah, NJDOT often does a good job of utilizing jughandles.  Their standard of signing intersections though on some roadways, especially along roadways where there's no consistency, is subpar at best.

I see the issue, but is it really a huge problem?  When giving directions, would someone normally just say "Turn left on Bob Road" when there's a jughandle, as opposed to saying "Take the jughandle for Bob Road and turn left"?  When using a GPS, it would normally say something like, "Turn slight-right at Bob Road Access and then turn left."  If you're reading a zoomed-in map, it should show where the jughandles are, although, granted, it typically won't show left turn prohibitions.  If you're reading a zoomed-out map, then yeah, I can see situations arise where one might wonder, "Is there a jughandle for Bob Road, or is it a conventional left turn?"  But the nice thing about arterial highways in New Jersey is that there are tons of convenient, well signed U-turns (via jughandles, ramps, or even median crossings), so you should be able to find your way back around in case you miss a turn.  This is something I've found severely lacking in most states that aren't New Jersey and Michigan.

At any rate, sure, it's not a perfect system, but I appreciate the thoughtful solution to the problem.  And moreover, saying "NJ roads are some of the worst in the country" is totally bogus for anyone actually paying attention.  Sure, there are some blemishes here and there, but same goes for roads in every state.

Some of it is people don't know what a jughandle is.  Or they're given incomplete directions.  Or they see a place they want to get to on the other side of the road, and they are completely ignorant of the signage to keep right to make a u-turn.  Or, they don't care.

Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand.  A lot aren't even using GPS devices.

The issue is a big one when they stop in the left lane to make that left/u-turn, completely jamming traffic.  Especially true when the median is just a 2 foot wide jersey barrier.

Regarding Wawa, they don't actually have any indoor seating in their stores.  No outdoor seating either, with the exception of their Florida locations (and maybe a newer one in Philly).  That will have to change if they want people to eat lunch there while charging their car.  Eating in a car is not fun, even while parked, at least if you don't want to get the inside of your car all dirty.

In PA, their really unusual rules have opened up more opportunities for convenience stores to sell beer & wine, but the store has to have a 'seating' area for people to drink the beer they just purchased.  (I'm quite sure almost no one does)  So some Wawas will allow room for a seating area, but I'm sure most people aren't going to spend a half hour sitting in a convenience store.

[vdeane]

Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand.  A lot aren't even using GPS devices.

And that is a big problem.  People think I have a superpower with navigation (OK, maybe I do somewhat, as I'm still not quite sure how I managed to time some work trips precisely with when I wanted to get back to the office), but most of that is just that I actually look at maps and street view before I go places rather than try to drive blind or rely exclusively on GPS like most people.

In PA, their really unusual rules have opened up more opportunities for convenience stores to sell beer & wine, but the store has to have a 'seating' area for people to drink the beer they just purchased.  (I'm quite sure almost no one does)  So some Wawas will allow room for a seating area, but I'm sure most people aren't going to spend a half hour sitting in a convenience store.

Why not?  Maybe they won't for that purpose, but if you're getting lunch there and are on the road, where else are you going to eat it?  The lack of any kind of seating actually keeps me away from Wawa to a decent extent because I'm not going to eat in the car, so I can only get dinner there, not lunch (I've only managed lunch twice; once in Florida where there was outdoor seating available, and once for a BYOL roadmeet).  Even with Stewart's locally, if I'm in the field for work, I need somewhere to sit to eat, and if I'm stopping as I leave for Rochester, it's nicer to just stop before I get on the interstate rather than drive back to my apartment only to pass it again anyways when I actually leave.

[Scott5114]

From what I can tell, OnCue isn't even a store. It's a streaming service that doesn't even exist anymore.

Huh, what do you think they need such a big canopy for then?

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1843729,-97.418717,3a,48.9y,282.06h,93.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svuNvK9eYU0jJy8Z9qhfPGg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.oncueexpress.com/

[snowc]

There was an abandoned gas station near me for a while - since torn down - that I maintain should become a Dunkin'. It's a perfect location - even better than most of the existing Dunkin' locations IMO.

I even contacted Dunkin' Brands about it, but nothing ever became of it (sadly but unsurprisingly).

Our old Comco gas station will soon become a Burger King, as the old one is a 1994 built and is outgrown.

[Ned Weasel]

Some of it is people don't know what a jughandle is.  Or they're given incomplete directions.  Or they see a place they want to get to on the other side of the road, and they are completely ignorant of the signage to keep right to make a u-turn.  Or, they don't care.

Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand.  A lot aren't even using GPS devices.

But you can have the same issue on any expressway, in any state.  If you want to go left on an intersecting road, the only way to know well in advance whether it's a left turn or a right-hand exit is to view a detailed map or get detailed directions.

The issue is a big one when they stop in the left lane to make that left/u-turn, completely jamming traffic.  Especially true when the median is just a 2 foot wide jersey barrier.

Continuous-flow intersections have the same potential for this.  The new one fairly close to me in Kansas gets people trying to turn left at the "NO TURNS" sign in the middle part of the intersection.

[Rothman]

Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand.  A lot aren't even using GPS devices.

And that is a big problem.  People think I have a superpower with navigation (OK, maybe I do somewhat, as I'm still not quite sure how I managed to time some work trips precisely with when I wanted to get back to the office), but most of that is just that I actually look at maps and street view before I go places rather than try to drive blind or rely exclusively on GPS like most people.

In PA, their really unusual rules have opened up more opportunities for convenience stores to sell beer & wine, but the store has to have a 'seating' area for people to drink the beer they just purchased.  (I'm quite sure almost no one does)  So some Wawas will allow room for a seating area, but I'm sure most people aren't going to spend a half hour sitting in a convenience store.

Why not?  Maybe they won't for that purpose, but if you're getting lunch there and are on the road, where else are you going to eat it?  The lack of any kind of seating actually keeps me away from Wawa to a decent extent because I'm not going to eat in the car, so I can only get dinner there, not lunch (I've only managed lunch twice; once in Florida where there was outdoor seating available, and once for a BYOL roadmeet).  Even with Stewart's locally, if I'm in the field for work, I need somewhere to sit to eat, and if I'm stopping as I leave for Rochester, it's nicer to just stop before I get on the interstate rather than drive back to my apartment only to pass it again anyways when I actually leave.

Yeah, Stewart's was a local hangout in a couple of places in the Albany area.

Led to the moniker "StewCrew" in Bethlehem...

[snowc]

Nearly no one reviews zoomed in maps of their drives beforehand.  A lot aren't even using GPS devices.

And that is a big problem.  People think I have a superpower with navigation (OK, maybe I do somewhat, as I'm still not quite sure how I managed to time some work trips precisely with when I wanted to get back to the office), but most of that is just that I actually look at maps and street view before I go places rather than try to drive blind or rely exclusively on GPS like most people.

In PA, their really unusual rules have opened up more opportunities for convenience stores to sell beer & wine, but the store has to have a 'seating' area for people to drink the beer they just purchased.  (I'm quite sure almost no one does)  So some Wawas will allow room for a seating area, but I'm sure most people aren't going to spend a half hour sitting in a convenience store.

Why not?  Maybe they won't for that purpose, but if you're getting lunch there and are on the road, where else are you going to eat it?  The lack of any kind of seating actually keeps me away from Wawa to a decent extent because I'm not going to eat in the car, so I can only get dinner there, not lunch (I've only managed lunch twice; once in Florida where there was outdoor seating available, and once for a BYOL roadmeet).  Even with Stewart's locally, if I'm in the field for work, I need somewhere to sit to eat, and if I'm stopping as I leave for Rochester, it's nicer to just stop before I get on the interstate rather than drive back to my apartment only to pass it again anyways when I actually leave.

Yeah, Stewart's was a local hangout in a couple of places in the Albany area.

Led to the moniker "StewCrew" in Bethlehem...

Oh yeah, the good ol Stewart's.

[skluth]

While there's nothing inherently wrong with the Texas turnaround system, it's wasteful and impractical to mandate that all new and reconstructed freeways have it.  Have you ever noticed that not all freeways have frontage roads?  Have you ever noticed how much space it takes to add frontage roads to a freeway?

I think it would be reasonable to say that all new freeways with frontage roads should have one-way frontage roads with turnarounds, but leave the option of not building frontage roads on the table. Frontage roads do have a bunch of drawbacks in terms of the types of land use they tend to promote.

There are intended and unintended consequences of EVs replacing the ICE fleet and as it relates to C-stores, I see the following.
1. EVs take much longer to charge at present than ICE vehicles, so even if 90% of charging will be at home, the total dwell time of vehicles (and people) at a C-store equipped with chargers may be equal or longer than now, presenting more opportunities for C-stores to sell their other stuff.
[...]
3. If the demise of ICEs means the demise of C-stores, why the emerging trend of refueling "palaces" like Buc-ees and Wally's? Surely they have a long-term view that is more informed than ours.

1. I would think this would lead to more Sheetz-type stores with nice restrooms, food you can eat for lunch, and seating over the current model of a few snacks and maybe a single-stall restroom.  Stuff like this I don't see surviving.

This is exactly what I'm thinking–the small hole-in-the-wall 7-11s and such will go away and the market will tilt toward things like QuikTrip/OnCue/Sheetz/Wawa/Buc-ee's* because those offer some form of something to do while you're waiting for the charge.

You may even see Walmart/Target install chargers all over their lots so that they become an attractive place to make a pit stop. It's easy to kill time wandering around a Walmart or Target.


*Yeah, I just put OnCue in the same category as Sheetz/Wawa. Deal with it, Easterners.

I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.

[vdeane]

How many people are stopping at those stores on roadtrips?  EVs only really shine with home charging, and people with home charging don't need to recharge while running errands.  That said, there will probably be some market for non-home, non-travel charging locations due to people who need street parking.

[1995hoo]

How many people are stopping at those stores on roadtrips?  EVs only really shine with home charging, and people with home charging don't need to recharge while running errands.  That said, there will probably be some market for non-home, non-travel charging locations due to people who need street parking.

Or even people who have reserved parking at home but cannot install a charging station–for example, townhouse residents who live on a court with assigned parking spaces or similar. (I live in a townhouse, but I have a one-car garage. There are about ten houses up the street that have no garages and assigned parking spaces. Those people can't install charging stations, though I suppose in theory maybe they could run an extra-long cable from the house to the car.)

[vdeane]

In the future I would hope that those areas would be forced to eventually allow/install charging stations if we're expected to go all-electric, either by market forces (the value of places not offering charging going down as people look elsewhere) or by government edict (like the law that makes it illegal for a HOA to block the installation of a TV antenna).  EVs suck if you don't have home charging, and I think even EV enthusiasts agree with that!

[tradephoric]

Time to fill up a gas tank:  14 seconds
Time to charge a Tesla:  3014 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9rTCA3LCTY

[Rothman]

In the future I would hope that those areas would be forced to eventually allow/install charging stations if we're expected to go all-electric, either by market forces (the value of places not offering charging going down as people look elsewhere) or by government edict (like the law that makes it illegal for a HOA to block the installation of a TV antenna).  EVs suck if you don't have home charging, and I think even EV enthusiasts agree with that!

Such "force" has not happened in other areas of housing -- elevators, HVAC, heck, you even still find wooden pipes in some old Northeastern areas...

[skluth]

How many people are stopping at those stores on roadtrips?  EVs only really shine with home charging, and people with home charging don't need to recharge while running errands.  That said, there will probably be some market for non-home, non-travel charging locations due to people who need street parking.

People are not stopping at Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. That is their destination. It's not unusual for customers to drive from 100 miles or more to shop. There's plenty of time for shoppers to recharge their vehicles while shopping at any of these stores. I used to drive from Tidewater to Potomac Mills because it was the closest Ikea when I lived in Portsmouth, VA. Even now, it's over an hour for me to reach the nearest Ikea in Covina, CA which I visit every 2-3 months. I don't drive an EV, but I'd be charging it at Ikea if I had one.

Pre-Covid, I'd regularly see day trippers from LA and OC coming to Palm Springs on my Mt San Jacinto hikes. It's a minimum 100 miles just to reach Palm Springs. They'd park at the tram and the couple available EV chargers were almost always in use daily. Your impressions in a dense, populated state don't translate to those parts of the country where people live much farther apart.

[I-35]

I thought this was going to be about conversions to taquerias.  Leaving disappointed.

[vdeane]

In the future I would hope that those areas would be forced to eventually allow/install charging stations if we're expected to go all-electric, either by market forces (the value of places not offering charging going down as people look elsewhere) or by government edict (like the law that makes it illegal for a HOA to block the installation of a TV antenna).  EVs suck if you don't have home charging, and I think even EV enthusiasts agree with that!

Such "force" has not happened in other areas of housing -- elevators, HVAC, heck, you even still find wooden pipes in some old Northeastern areas...

And?  Not sure how they're all comparable.  Heating is actually required under law to be considered habitable, and apartment complexes at least have window AC units in the walls.  Never seen anywhere where a landlord or HOA would ban window AC units, either.  Elevators is an interesting peculiarity of the ADA, and probably reflects the US preoccupation with homeownership (a homeowner could install a stair lift if needed or choose to live in a ranch house, for example); I'm not sure how common they are in new apartments, but older ones or townhomes definitely don't have them.  And I'm not sure how municipal wood pipes would even compare.

Right now there isn't a ton of interest in this since EVs are still seen as "niche", but remember, policymakers want them everyone to be driving them within a couple decades.  NY has the law banning new ICE cars after 2035, for example, and I was reading that the UK and another country are pressuring the US to adopt that nation-wide.  If that's going to happen, home charging is going to have to be available.

[Scott5114]

I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.

Sure. Casinos too. They'd love for you to stop to charge your car, wander inside for "15 minutes"...come out two hours later $1000 in the hole...

[HighwayStar]

I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.

Sure. Casinos too. They'd love for you to stop to charge your car, wander inside for "15 minutes"...come out two hours later $1000 in the hole...

Unfortunately when doing a long drive I don't have time to wander mindlessly around stores.

[Scott5114]

I would also include destination stores like Ikea, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, and Micro Center. Shoppers often drive a couple hours just to visit these chains. Best of all, these places could charge vehicles cheaply using solar panels on the roof as most are open during daylight.

Sure. Casinos too. They'd love for you to stop to charge your car, wander inside for "15 minutes"...come out two hours later $1000 in the hole...

Unfortunately when doing a long drive I don't have time to wander mindlessly around stores.

Go for a short one then.

[TempoNick]

Honda and Toyota aren't on the battery-operated train yet. Until they are, I withhold judgement.

I have no interest in a car with such limited range unless they can figure out a way to get me across country with one.

[SEWIGuy]

Honda and Toyota aren't on the battery-operated train yet. Until they are, I withhold judgement.

I have no interest in a car with such limited range unless they can figure out a way to get me across country with one.

That is why if I ever go this route, a plug-in hybrid is what I would be interested in.

[1995hoo]

.... Never seen anywhere where a landlord or HOA would ban window AC units, either. ....

Come visit our neighborhood. It's unambiguously written into the covenants. The people who used to live across the street put one in and ultimately got fined, I believe, because they didn't remove it after multiple notices. (Our houses all have central AC, which is why window units aren't allowed, although to be fair the top floors tend to be a bit stuffier because most houses don't have dual-zone HVAC but could probably use it.)