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Passing on the Right

Started by webny99, May 15, 2018, 08:24:03 AM

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Rothman

Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).

For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.

Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
The problem with throwing everyone into the rightmost lane on a 3-lane highway is that the traffic will be impeded by exiting and entering traffic.  I don't know what the definition of use for the middle lane is, but interpreting KRETP as mandating rightmost lane traffic seems extreme to me in this situation.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.


kalvado

Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:44:40 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:23:28 AM
There are at least 3 people in this thread who seems not to be shy about their unsafe habits. I'll just keep monitoring.
Some are really hilarious.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 15, 2018, 07:56:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
I'll be cruising along at 80 mph in the left lane . . .
Quote
I started tailgating the traffic . . .
Quote
I decided and successfully used the left shoulder to pass the vehicle . . .
Quote
Common sense just doesn't register with some people . . .
You very much seem to be one of those people.

That was, admittedly, quite hilarious. But it was due to CtrlAltDel's dry humor, not the actual unsafe habits.

OK, OK, passing on a shoulder is not an unsafe habit; tailgating is not an unsafe habit... Cutting off, as we were told, is not an unsafe habit as well.  What is unsafe, in such a case?

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on May 18, 2018, 10:01:57 AM
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).

For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.

Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
The problem with throwing everyone into the rightmost lane on a 3-lane highway is that the traffic will be impeded by exiting and entering traffic.  I don't know what the definition of use for the middle lane is, but interpreting KRETP as mandating rightmost lane traffic seems extreme to me in this situation.
KREP is a good idea in some narrow case of circumstances - road is somewhat busy, but nowhere close to full. I assume that was a common case when existing set of rules was drafted - and nobody envisioned 3-4-5 packed lanes in the same direction
On empty road lane  lane use doesn't really matter; on full highway all lanes will move at whatever slow rate is possible...

webny99

Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 10:23:01 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:44:40 AM
That was, admittedly, quite hilarious. But it was due to CtrlAltDel's dry humor, not the actual unsafe habits.

OK, OK, passing on a shoulder is not an unsafe habit; tailgating is not an unsafe habit... Cutting off, as we were told, is not an unsafe habit as well.  What is unsafe, in such a case?

I'm not saying those habits are safe. I'm just saying it wasn't funny until it was put in context for us.

1995hoo

About the only places I will consistently drive in the left lane for any length of time, aside from urban areas in heavy and slow traffic, is if a road is really bad. Autoroute 15 from the border up to Montreal is a good example–the right lane is often in terrible shape, so I drive in the left lane, but I still move to the right to let people pass and then move back.

The way I see it is that I hate to be held up, so I try not to hold up other people.

With that said, in Virginia and Maryland you often have no choice but to pass on the right. A lot of people seem to think they're on a British motorway because they insist on staying as far left as possible. In Maryland in particular I've sometimes found the right lane to be the fastest because people are so afraid of it. I distinguish between "passing on the right,"  which to me implies moving to the right and then getting back over, versus "undertaking,"  which I've always understood to mean that for whatever reason the lane to the right (or the left in the UK) is simply moving faster such that going the speed of traffic means you "pass"  without changing lanes. I've always understood the latter to be no problem at all (except insofar as the cause is someone obstructing the passing lane, but that's a different person's fault).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

kphoger

Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:23:28 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 09:07:25 AM
If someone's approaching fast on my right, I'll often opt to quickly switch places with them.

This is exactly what cutting off is - changing into the lane where someone else reasonably expects to see no cars.

No, not necessarily.  If the approaching car is far enough back, then it's quite possible to get into the right lane before impeding the other driver's travel, thereby allowing him the opportunity to move left and pass you on the correct side.  "Quick" in this scenario does not necessarily imply "close," but often implies that, once the other driver sees you put your right blinker on, he immediately prepares to change lanes to the left.  Quick meaning "in quick succession," not "all of a sudden."


Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 08:56:21 AM
Passing on the right on multilane road is explicitly legal in NY. Anything else is just your agression.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2018, 09:01:59 AM
Since passing on the right is a legal move as noted by Kalvado, there's nothing wrong in doing it.

Just because something is legal, that doesn't mean it's best practice.  That is to say, just because something is legal, that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it.  There is a general notion that slower traffic should keep right and passing should be done on the left.  Even though there are states with no prohibition against left lane hogging, I maintain that there's still something "wrong in doing it" even in those places, because it goes against the general notion of how traffic should flow–thereby creating the potential to tick other drivers off, which can lead to road rage.


Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 09:31:35 AM
We want to have a cake and eat it too - we want slower traffic to keep right AND we want someone driving "just" 5 MPH above speed limit to be considered slow.

Not slow.  SlowER.  There's a big distinction.  I don't care what number the speedo needle is pointing to; if you're slowER than someone else, then that makes you slower traffic.  Period.  You could be going 10 under, and someone needs to pass at 5 under.  Or you could be going 15 over, and someone needs to pass at 20 over.  Same difference.


Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane?

The purpose of the center lane should be the same as the left lane.

If your roadway has three lanes traveling in the same direction, then you should keep to the rightmost lane except to pass.  When you need to pass, you do so using the center lane, then move back over to the rightmost lane.  The third lane (left lane) is there for when someone else needs to pass you while you're completing a pass.  And I think we all understand the goal:  slowest traffic on the right, fastest traffic on the left, in-betweeners in the middle.

But what center lane camping does is to mess that all up.  With center lane campers in the mix, the right lane ends up being a jumble of the slowest and fastest traffic on the road, because center lane camping encourages passing on the right.


Quote from: Rothman on May 18, 2018, 10:01:57 AM
The problem with throwing everyone into the rightmost lane on a 3-lane highway is that the traffic will be impeded by exiting and entering traffic.  I don't know what the definition of use for the middle lane is, but interpreting KRETP as mandating rightmost lane traffic seems extreme to me in this situation.

This is not only a concern for urban traffic, but also on I-35 in Texas.  Exits are so closely spaced in Texas due to the frontage road system, that entering/exiting traffic is a definite concern when keeping to the right lane.  But here's the thing:  if traffic is heavy enough that entering/exiting traffic really does impede one's ability to keep right, then I don't think anyone would (at least I wouldn't) fault someone for sticking to the center lane.  BUT, center lane camping as S.O.P., just because you think entering/exiting traffic might potentially interfere with you being in the right lane, and you just don't want to have to worry about it, then you're being a lazy driver, in essence telling all the other driver, "You guys can watch out for traffic, I don't feel like it."


Quote from: 1995hoo on May 18, 2018, 02:13:11 PM
About the only places I will consistently drive in the left lane for any length of time, aside from urban areas in heavy and slow traffic, is if a road is really bad. Autoroute 15 from the border up to Montreal is a good example–the right lane is often in terrible shape, so I drive in the left lane, but I still move to the right to let people pass and then move back.

This is a common scenario in Mexico, where pavement quality is often poor.  Keeping right is fully ingrained in the Mexican mind, but (and also therefore) the right  lane can get pretty beat up.  Because of this, trucks especially frequently choose to drive in the left lane or on the right shoulder, where the pavement is in better condition.  But those who choose the left lane will always move to the right again if a car comes up to pass them, then they'll move back to the left again once the car has completed the passing maneuver.  I do this as well, and it works.  But, obviously, this really only functions if traffic volumes are low enough that keeping right or not doesn't really affect traffic flow.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

UCFKnights

#106
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).

For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.

Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
The middle lane is for passing traffic in the right lane. Nobody is expecting you to go back to the right lane between every single vehicle you pass, if the gap is small enough that by the time you get back to the right lane, you're going to need to go back to the center lane to pass another vehicle and nobody would be able to pass you without slowing down, the expectation is for you to just stay there (my general rule is if someone is able to pass you on the right without severely cutting you and someone else off, you are in the wrong lane). If you're going 5 over and a bunch of people are going the speed limit in the right lane, you could end up rightfully not going back to the right lane for long periods of time, even in freeflow conditions, because you're passing many, many people. This happens frequently when the freeway is more then 50% full, but you're still supposed to get to the right when there is larger gaps, as thats how congestion slowing everybody down starts to happen.

There also is being courteous. If you're passing someone in the center lane, and they approach a slower vehicle and want to move to the center lane to pass them, even though you aren't moving to the left to pass, its still courteous to do so, and once they perform their maneuver, you'll still be following KREP. Same with vehicles entering the highway... you see they're going to be merging right into you, you could pull to the left to make room for a few seconds, but it generally should not need the entire right lane to clear out, usually there's not a constant flow of cars without gaps entering the highway.

kphoger

Quote from: UCFKnights on May 18, 2018, 02:55:18 PM
Quote from: adwerkema on May 18, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
I see that a portion of this conversation centers around the middle lane. What should be the purpose of this center lane? (I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions).

For me, I tend to keep to the middle lane if the freeway is 50%+ full. It seems to ease congestion when people are constantly merging onto or exiting the freeway. If the freeway is less than 50% full, I tend to use the right lane, as there is no point in camping out in the middle and forcing faster traffic to go around you.

Overall, I find that the purpose of the middle lane varies depending on traffic density.
The middle lane is for passing traffic in the right lane. Nobody is expecting you to go back to the right lane between every single vehicle you pass, if the gap is small enough that by the time you get back to the right lane, you're going to need to go back to the center lane to pass another vehicle and nobody would be able to pass you without slowing down, the expectation is for you to just stay there (my general rule is if someone is able to pass you on the right without severely cutting you and someone else off, you are in the wrong lane). If you're going 5 over and a bunch of people are going the speed limit in the right lane, you could end up rightfully not going back to the right lane for long periods of time, even in freeflow conditions, because you're passing many, many people. This happens frequently when the freeway is more then 50% full, but you're still supposed to get to the right when there is larger gaps, as thats how congestion slowing everybody down starts to happen.

There also is being courteous. If you're passing someone in the center lane, and they approach a slower vehicle and want to move to the center lane to pass them, even though you aren't moving to the left to pass, its still courteous to do so, and once they perform their maneuver, you'll still be following KREP. Same with vehicles entering the highway... you see they're going to be merging right into you, you could pull to the left to make room for a few seconds, but it generally should not need the entire right lane to clear out, usually there's not a constant flow of cars without gaps entering the highway.

This is a very reasonable reply.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

webny99

#108
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
"Quick" in this scenario does not necessarily imply "close," but often implies that, once the other driver sees you put your right blinker on, he immediately prepares to change lanes to the left.  Quick meaning "in quick succession," not "all of a sudden."

Thank you. Exactly this, as in, in unison.

QuoteBut here's the thing:  if traffic is heavy enough that entering/exiting traffic really does impede one's ability to keep right, then I don't think anyone would (at least I wouldn't) fault someone for sticking to the center lane.  BUT, center lane camping as S.O.P., just because you think entering/exiting traffic might potentially interfere with you being in the right lane, and you just don't want to have to worry about it, then you're being a lazy driver, in essence telling all the other driver, "You guys can watch out for traffic, I don't feel like it."

I agree with that, especially that last sentence. It just doesn't make sense to try to minimize your own lane changes at the expense of traffic flow.
In my experience, though, whether or not middle lane camping is acceptable has more to do with exit frequency, and less to do with traffic density. Take, for example, this section of the thruway, on which there are 13 miles between exits, despite volumes which easily warrant six lanes. On roads like this, there is never an excuse to camp in the middle lane, even if volumes are as high, if not higher, than your typical urban six-lane freeway. On the other hand, I'd be much more willing to forgive middle lane camping on this section of I-490, despite similar volumes (and presumably similar density) to the thruway example.


Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2018, 03:03:36 PM
This is a very reasonable reply.

I'm trying to decide if I want this in my signature, or manually inserted on every post I make from now on  :-P

kphoger

Quote from: webny99 on May 18, 2018, 03:18:55 PM
In my experience, though, whether or not middle lane camping is acceptable has more to do with exit frequency, and less to do with traffic density.

It's a combination of the two.  There are highways where exits are few and far between, but traffic is thick (such as your example).  There are also highways where exits are frequent but hardly anyone gets on or off at them (such as rural Texas).  Keeping right should be expected in both cases.  It's when both frequency and volume increase that keeping right is no longer feasible.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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