Would it be fesible to toll I-49?

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

So, I understand why tolls aren't popular in Arkansas, but it would be great if AHTD was honest about where money was going and we could have even better transportation infrastructure.

NUMBERS: They want to charge $5 in the study they did about tolling, but why couldn't they charge what other states like Florida charges? When I went to FL for the summer, I saw they charged around $1.50 per toll (obviously depending on whether you stay on the Tollway for the entirty or not). Point being, is that why can't AHTD charge similar amounts? The income wouldn't be just  our state pop. that would be contributing to the toll revenue. MO and LA would be also! (As in, the residents that take I-49 of the two states, including us).

I wouldn't mind paying for direct connection, but only at a reasonable price. We aren't that big of a state, so why would we to have a too pricey toll?

[Life in Paradise]

Since to shunpike you would have to go quite a bit out of the way, it's a reasonable thought.  Biggest question would be whether or not Arkansas law would allow tolling.  I know some states still have that on the books.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

The AHTD has tolling authority, so I don't see why not.

[US71]

Unless the laws have changed, Arkansas doesn't allow tolling of *public* highways. "Private" roads are OK, like the XNA access road.

SM-G930V

[Tomahawkin]

I did a T-Log Research paper at the U of A on this in 2006 because the state claimed it was broke and had no funding back then, therefore I did tried to address the topic and I was Told that "I didn't know what I was talking about" SMH. It wont happen! Toll roads would benefit the state greatly. I 55, 49 and 40 Should be tolled even if its one area for 50 cents. It would help future road projects

[Anthony_JK]

I did a T-Log Research paper at the U of A on this in 2006 because the state claimed it was broke and had no funding back then, therefore I did tried to address the topic and I was Told that "I didn't know what I was talking about" SMH. It wont happen! Toll roads would benefit the state greatly. I 55, 49 and 40 Should be tolled even if its one area for 50 cents. It would help future road projects

Tolling existing "free" highways in order to fund more toll highways is a bad idea and universally opposed. That's what sunk the Trans Texas Corridor plan for I-69. Any tolling must be restricted to construction and paying off any interest on whatever bond was floated, and then the road should revert back to free or reduced tolls for maintenance of that facility only. Otherwise, build with gas taxes and public funding and keep them open for everyone.

[US71]

I did a T-Log Research paper at the U of A on this in 2006 because the state claimed it was broke and had no funding back then, therefore I did tried to address the topic and I was Told that "I didn't know what I was talking about" SMH. It wont happen! Toll roads would benefit the state greatly. I 55, 49 and 40 Should be tolled even if its one area for 50 cents. It would help future road projects

AHTD would have to improve  US 61, US 71, US 70 and US 64 to handle extra traffic, and 71 in Crawford county looks like it's about to wash down the mountainside. AHTD promised to maintain the road after I-49 was built, but that hasn't been the case.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

I did a T-Log Research paper at the U of A on this in 2006 because the state claimed it was broke and had no funding back then, therefore I did tried to address the topic and I was Told that "I didn't know what I was talking about" SMH. It wont happen! Toll roads would benefit the state greatly. I 55, 49 and 40 Should be tolled even if its one area for 50 cents. It would help future road projects

AHTD would have to improve  US 61, US 71, US 70 and US 64 to handle extra traffic, and 71 in Crawford county looks like it's about to wash down the mountainside. AHTD promised to maintain the road after I-49 was built, but that hasn't been the case.

AHTD needs to repave parts of US 71 in Fort Smith and Greenwood (Sebastian County). When they get big endorsements from FHWA US 71 doesn't even come up. It is the most neglected highway in Arkansas! Ther are parts in Fort SMith where they repave about 1/2 to 1/4 mile of 71 from fort smith to around Greenwood, but honestly; it needs it all. How do I complain to AHTD? Where do I go to get infromation from them and ask when they plan to get around to improving US 71?

[US71]

I did a T-Log Research paper at the U of A on this in 2006 because the state claimed it was broke and had no funding back then, therefore I did tried to address the topic and I was Told that "I didn't know what I was talking about" SMH. It wont happen! Toll roads would benefit the state greatly. I 55, 49 and 40 Should be tolled even if its one area for 50 cents. It would help future road projects

AHTD would have to improve  US 61, US 71, US 70 and US 64 to handle extra traffic, and 71 in Crawford county looks like it's about to wash down the mountainside. AHTD promised to maintain the road after I-49 was built, but that hasn't been the case.

AHTD needs to repave parts of US 71 in Fort Smith and Greenwood (Sebastian County). When they get big endorsements from FHWA US 71 doesn't even come up. It is the most neglected highway in Arkansas! Ther are parts in Fort SMith where they repave about 1/2 to 1/4 mile of 71 from fort smith to around Greenwood, but honestly; it needs it all. How do I complain to AHTD? Where do I go to get infromation from them and ask when they plan to get around to improving US 71?

http://arkansashighways.com/contactus.aspx
IF they listen.

But go to the section below Artists Point and see how bad it really is

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

I did a T-Log Research paper at the U of A on this in 2006 because the state claimed it was broke and had no funding back then, therefore I did tried to address the topic and I was Told that "I didn't know what I was talking about" SMH. It wont happen! Toll roads would benefit the state greatly. I 55, 49 and 40 Should be tolled even if its one area for 50 cents. It would help future road projects

AHTD would have to improve  US 61, US 71, US 70 and US 64 to handle extra traffic, and 71 in Crawford county looks like it's about to wash down the mountainside. AHTD promised to maintain the road after I-49 was built, but that hasn't been the case.

AHTD needs to repave parts of US 71 in Fort Smith and Greenwood (Sebastian County). When they get big endorsements from FHWA US 71 doesn't even come up. It is the most neglected highway in Arkansas! Ther are parts in Fort SMith where they repave about 1/2 to 1/4 mile of 71 from fort smith to around Greenwood, but honestly; it needs it all. How do I complain to AHTD? Where do I go to get infromation from them and ask when they plan to get around to improving US 71?

http://arkansashighways.com/contactus.aspx
IF they listen.

But go to the section below Artists Point and see how bad it really is

Thanks! I have seen others on here that have had [some] success in emailing the AHTD, so I would just like to drop US 71 by them. So, I paused on this reply to go and email AHTD in regards to Sebastian County (District 4) I think what I could do is email or call whoever at District 4 to see what their plans are for my county. It's a shame! I don't want to end up like Oklahoma! I am suprised that OKDOT doesn't have better roads! Like, they are a bigger state than Arkansas and (in theory) they should get way more money than us to do improvements, but no, they have shit for roads! I-40 in Oklahoma is terrible!

[US71]

I did a T-Log Research paper at the U of A on this in 2006 because the state claimed it was broke and had no funding back then, therefore I did tried to address the topic and I was Told that "I didn't know what I was talking about" SMH. It wont happen! Toll roads would benefit the state greatly. I 55, 49 and 40 Should be tolled even if its one area for 50 cents. It would help future road projects

AHTD would have to improve  US 61, US 71, US 70 and US 64 to handle extra traffic, and 71 in Crawford county looks like it's about to wash down the mountainside. AHTD promised to maintain the road after I-49 was built, but that hasn't been the case.

AHTD needs to repave parts of US 71 in Fort Smith and Greenwood (Sebastian County). When they get big endorsements from FHWA US 71 doesn't even come up. It is the most neglected highway in Arkansas! Ther are parts in Fort SMith where they repave about 1/2 to 1/4 mile of 71 from fort smith to around Greenwood, but honestly; it needs it all. How do I complain to AHTD? Where do I go to get infromation from them and ask when they plan to get around to improving US 71?

http://arkansashighways.com/contactus.aspx
IF they listen.

But go to the section below Artists Point and see how bad it really is

Thanks! I have seen others on here that have had [some] success in emailing the AHTD, so I would just like to drop US 71 by them. So, I paused on this reply to go and email AHTD in regards to Sebastian County (District 4) I think what I could do is email or call whoever at District 4 to see what their plans are for my county. It's a shame! I don't want to end up like Oklahoma! I am suprised that OKDOT doesn't have better roads! Like, they are a bigger state than Arkansas and (in theory) they should get way more money than us to do improvements, but no, they have shit for roads! I-40 in Oklahoma is terrible!

Oklahoma has NO money, unless it's gimmies for the corporations. Arkansas isn't far behind.

[Wayward Memphian]

Everyone wants something for nothing. Guess I'm cut from different cloth. I'd gladly pay a toll toget to and from Texarkana via I-49 and avoid Oklahoma completely as well as using a turnpike across the northern half of the state connecting NWA and NEA without LR/Conway.

I would toll I-49 in two segments between Y -City and Greenwood and south of Mena to Texarkana.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

Everyone wants something for nothing. Guess I'm cut from different cloth. I'd gladly pay a toll toget to and from Texarkana via I-49 and avoid Oklahoma completely as well as using a turnpike across the northern half of the state connecting NWA and NEA without LR/Conway.

I would toll I-49 in two segments between Y -City and Greenwood and south of Mena to Texarkana.

I would too! I don't know why we don't toll at least one big connection from point A to point B along that destination's route. They 'were' concidering I-630 for HOT lanes I would do that! Traffic on the 630 is horrific! HOT Lanes for I-630 would give more money towards repairs for the 40 due to rig traffic and reduce traffic on the 630. I love it when I see we have had a lane expansion somewhere because it makes me feel like we are growing very fast (which growth is good), but it's expensive. So, why not toll the 630 in the middle?

[dfwmapper]

Tolling existing "free" highways in order to fund more toll highways is a bad idea and universally opposed. That's what sunk the Trans Texas Corridor plan for I-69. Any tolling must be restricted to construction and paying off any interest on whatever bond was floated, and then the road should revert back to free or reduced tolls for maintenance of that facility only. Otherwise, build with gas taxes and public funding and keep them open for everyone.

Cross-pledging toll revenues within a tolling entity is fine as long as it's being used to build roads that are actually needed and will pay their share over time (e.g. the NTTA roads in Dallas), not just building and propping up toll roads that aren't needed and will never be self sustaining just to jerk off some asshole politicians (hi there, Oklahoma).

The TTC failed essentially because the land was going to have to be acquired via eminent domain, but the roads were likely to be built using a DBFOM mechanism, meaning that some private entity somewhere would be getting all the profits the tolls generated. Eminent domain is a touchy enough subject in Texas when it's for purely public benefit, and it's nearly impossible to get anywhere against a well-funded landowner when it's going to result in primarily private benefit.

[Bobby5280]

Isn't at least some of I-49 between Fort Smith and Texarkana supposed to be built on top of existing US-71? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of any US highway that is designated along a toll road. A number of toll roads have Interstate numbers, but not US highway numbers. The US routes have to run separate/parallel to a toll road, like US-281/US-277 and I-44 in my region. If there is a hard rule against building a toll road on an existing US highway route then that would force those overlaps of I-49 and US-71 to be routed differently. More road to build and maintain.

[kphoger]

I don't know of any US highway that is designated along a toll road. A number of toll roads have Interstate numbers, but not US highway numbers. The US routes have to run separate/parallel to a toll road, like US-281/US-277 and I-44 in my region.

The Cimarron Turnpike says hello.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

Isn't at least some of I-49 between Fort Smith and Texarkana supposed to be built on top of existing US-71? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of any US highway that is designated along a toll road. A number of toll roads have Interstate numbers, but not US highway numbers. The US routes have to run separate/parallel to a toll road, like US-281/US-277 and I-44 in my region. If there is a hard rule against building a toll road on an existing US highway route then that would force those overlaps of I-49 and US-71 to be routed differently. More road to build and maintain.

Yes, but at some sections, it seems to abruptly end without signage that I have seen anyway. Down near White Bluff and just after 255 turning into a two-part cloverleaf. But, yes it bypasses US 71 at Massard Rd.

[US71]

I don't know of any US highway that is designated along a toll road. A number of toll roads have Interstate numbers, but not US highway numbers. The US routes have to run separate/parallel to a toll road, like US-281/US-277 and I-44 in my region.

The Cimarron Turnpike says hello.

So does the Cherokee Turnpike

[sparker]

I don't know of any US highway that is designated along a toll road. A number of toll roads have Interstate numbers, but not US highway numbers. The US routes have to run separate/parallel to a toll road, like US-281/US-277 and I-44 in my region.

The Cimarron Turnpike says hello.

So does the Cherokee Turnpike

Interestingly, when the Cimarron was built, along with the free segment immediately west of Tulsa, US 64 (the original closest parallel US highway) exited the limited-access facility before the tolled section and maintained its original alignment west of that point.  It wasn't until US 412 was commissioned that the tolled Cimarron received any number whatsoever.  Since all that occurred at about the time that the first batch of high priority corridors were legislated with the 1991 ISTEA act -- including HPC #8, which essentially included the entirety of US 412 east of Tulsa (including the section utilizing the Cherokee turnpike) it's likely that OK DOT simply requested that the Cimarron, being a logical western extension of that HPC, be designated as a western extension of US 412 (which eventually was further extended west segment by segment until it reached I-25 in NM).

As that pertains to I-49 between Texarkana and Fort Smith, there's no reason to think that if tolls were to be applied to an I-49 corridor that lay atop existing US 71, there would be an issue regarding tolls on a US highway.  "Shunpiking" could be effected -- at least for longer-distance travel -- by simply using a US 59/271 alternate route via Poteau, OK.  I'm sure that with electronic tolling, some accommodation for local traffic that would need to use the tolled route could be made (discounts or even waivers).  However, it wouldn't be ancillary rules about what can or can't be signed over a toll road that would impinge upon toll plans -- it would be the overall reluctance in AR to impose any form of toll on their highway facilities; such would likely be framed as a form of taxation by opponents. 

[The Ghostbuster]

If tolling will get the unbuilt segments constructed sooner, I'd say go for it. Of course, some people would have issues with the tolls, but if they could be used to both build and maintain Interstate 49, it might be worth it.

[Scott5114]

Tolling existing "free" highways in order to fund more toll highways is a bad idea and universally opposed. That's what sunk the Trans Texas Corridor plan for I-69. Any tolling must be restricted to construction and paying off any interest on whatever bond was floated, and then the road should revert back to free or reduced tolls for maintenance of that facility only. Otherwise, build with gas taxes and public funding and keep them open for everyone.

Cross-pledging toll revenues within a tolling entity is fine as long as it's being used to build roads that are actually needed and will pay their share over time (e.g. the NTTA roads in Dallas), not just building and propping up toll roads that aren't needed and will never be self sustaining just to jerk off some asshole politicians (hi there, Oklahoma).

There are a lot of bad things that can be said about OTA, but I think this one is unfounded. The only two toll roads I can see that one could not argue are necessary with a straight face are the Cherokee and the Chickasaw.

The Cherokee was built as a safety improvement to bypass the existing SH-33 (now Alternate 412), because ODOT could not find the funding to do so. So a four-lane turnpike was probably overkill, but it has a reason for existing.

The Chickasaw was meant to be a much longer route linking Ada to the interstate system in two places (imagine a diagonal line from I-35 in the Arbuckles to I-40, passing through Ada, and you have the idea for the Chickasaw). This would have been at least somewhat useful. However, it was included mostly to secure support for the bond package from rural legislators who felt that the package (which also included the Kilpatrick and Creek turnpikes) was tilted too heavily toward urban interests. As a result, it was cut back to what it is today in order to save money, thereby hobbling it.

[sparker]

The Chickasaw was meant to be a much longer route linking Ada to the interstate system in two places (imagine a diagonal line from I-35 in the Arbuckles to I-40, passing through Ada, and you have the idea for the Chickasaw). This would have been at least somewhat useful. However, it was included mostly to secure support for the bond package from rural legislators who felt that the package (which also included the Kilpatrick and Creek turnpikes) was tilted too heavily toward urban interests. As a result, it was cut back to what it is today in order to save money, thereby hobbling it.

Actually, if one can obtain an OK state map (preferably Gousha) from the mid-to-late 1950's, it can be seen that the Chickasaw is a remnant of what would have been a eastern branch of the pre-Interstate expanded turnpike network; a trunk generally following US 77 would have duplicated I-35 north to about Davis, where it split in two -- one heading northwest to near Maysville before turning due north via Norman and onward to OKC.  The eastern branch would have followed what is now the Chickasaw turnpike/OK 1 to Ada before turning north on (then ) OK 99 (now US 377) to the Turner Turnpike at Stroud.  This was meant to effectively divert Tulsa-bound traffic away from OKC.  Of course, once Interstate routings were finalized, this particular 2-prong southern turnpike was dropped from the plans.  It's likely the reasons for the eventual Chickasaw deployment were precisely as Scott depicts them.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

There is just a lot of negitivity associated with tolls and tolling a road around here. Mainly truckers and the trucking industry, but let's not forget about the person who has a $6.58 pay-check to live off of. That is why tolls are so unaccepted, if we had a little higher income rates we might be able to get away with it. But, our state and its residents are dead-ass broke! How could the AHTD say we have come up to nearly one of the best in the nation in road and transportation standards?

[dfwmapper]

There are a lot of bad things that can be said about OTA, but I think this one is unfounded. The only two toll roads I can see that one could not argue are necessary with a straight face are the Cherokee and the Chickasaw.

The Indian Nation is pretty light on traffic in general, but the portion south of US 69 is particularly useless with less than 2000 VPD. And, it really would have been better if it was a little more direct of a routing between DFW and Tulsa and if it replaced US 75 north of Henryetta with a full freeway all the way to Tulsa. The Cimarron also doesn't carry much and doesn't even have the Cherokee excuse of fixing a crooked routing. The southern portion of the Muskogee doesn't carry much either and largely duplicates US 64. Would have been perfectly reasonable to just end it at US 62.

[sparker]

There are a lot of bad things that can be said about OTA, but I think this one is unfounded. The only two toll roads I can see that one could not argue are necessary with a straight face are the Cherokee and the Chickasaw.

The Indian Nation is pretty light on traffic in general, but the portion south of US 69 is particularly useless with less than 2000 VPD. And, it really would have been better if it was a little more direct of a routing between DFW and Tulsa and if it replaced US 75 north of Henryetta with a full freeway all the way to Tulsa. The Cimarron also doesn't carry much and doesn't even have the Cherokee excuse of fixing a crooked routing. The southern portion of the Muskogee doesn't carry much either and largely duplicates US 64. Would have been perfectly reasonable to just end it at US 62.

The Cimarron and Muskogee, if considered together, comprise a 2-way access corridor to Tulsa from northerly points along I-35 and, by extension, I-135 and west I-70 -- and, conversely to the southeast, points along I-40 (essentially everything from Fort Smith to the east).  Tulsa is a sizeable enough metro area to warrant such access facilities.  I've used that particular combination several times to get from Denver and points beyond to Memphis and Atlanta -- it's quite useful if you can manage to hit Tulsa outside commute hours.  Actually -- and despite the singular cross-traffic point near where the Cimarron segues into US 64 -- I'm surprised that OK didn't request an Interstate designation for the combined corridor when they extended I-44 over the Bailey Turnpike circa '82.