Minor things that bother you

[kphoger]

About punctuation and quotation marks...

I choose to put punctuation marks inside the quotation mark when it can be reasonably assumed to be part of the quote.

   Example:  Just last night my wife told me, 'I'm tired of cleaning up after you.'

However, I choose not to put it outside when it's part of the larger sentence, not the quote itself.

   Example:  I can't believe your mom actually used the phrase 'golden shower'!  (The exclamation was mine, not hers.)

When it's ambiguous, I usually choose to put it outside.

   Example:  Just last night, my wife told me, 'I'm tired of cleaning up after you', so I stuck my tongue out at her.



While we're on minor punctuation...  It bothers me when people italicize parentheses.

Wrong:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.

Right:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.

[lepidopteran]

Regarding copyrights and unavailable media, see also this TVTropes article.  Keep Circulating the Tapes

[roadman]

Speaking of punctuation, it bothers me how the media puts words in quotes when not directly quoting a person.  Recent example:  The suspect "fought violently", according to officials.

Another media thing that bothers me is their constant use, overuse, and misuse of "alleged" and "allegedly."  Recent example   The lab was allegedly in a children's playroom (should be reportedly).

[J N Winkler]

Speaking of punctuation, it bothers me how the media puts words in quotes when not directly quoting a person.  Recent example:  The suspect "fought violently", according to officials.

I don't think this is necessarily objectionable; it depends on the context.  Placing fought violently in quotes looks to me like a prophylaxis against being accused of plagiarism.

Another media thing that bothers me is their constant use, overuse, and misuse of "alleged" and "allegedly."  Recent example   The lab was allegedly in a children's playroom (should be reportedly).

Isn't this a distinction without a difference?  Allegations are a form of reportage.

[jeffandnicole]

Another media thing that bothers me is their constant use, overuse, and misuse of "alleged" and "allegedly."  Recent example   The lab was allegedly in a children's playroom (should be reportedly).

I wanna say this was born out of a court ruling.

But I do agree.  Basically, they can make up whatever they want. For example: Roadman is allegedly a hater of the media. While probably not true, it doesn't have to be, because the sentence used "allegedly".

[webny99]

When it's ambiguous, I usually choose to put it outside.

   Example:  Just last night, my wife told me, 'I'm tired of cleaning up after you', so I stuck my tongue out at her.

Thank you! I agree wholeheartedly!

While we're on minor punctuation...  It bothers me when people italicize parentheses.

Wrong:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.
Right:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.

The two sentences look identical: they're both italicized in full.
(Forgive me for looking at the code, seeing what you did, and getting a good chuckle out of it ...)

[1995hoo]

It seems to me the parentheses should be italicized if the entire sentence is. An example might be in a book where the author uses italics to describe what a character sees while dreaming. The whole paragraph is italicized. I don't see any reason why the parentheses wouldn't be–and if they were left unitalicized, then wouldn't other punctuation marks like question marks also need to be left unitalicized for consistency?

(I can see the difference between an italicized comma and an unitalicized comma in certain typefaces.)

Edited to add: I see Butterick makes a distinction between brackets or parentheses that surround the set-off material (which would not be italicized) and those that are part of it (which would be italicized). He offers an example using an italicized title placed in brackets and containing a parenthetical element. The brackets there are not italicized; the parentheses are. It seems to me in kphoger's example, the parentheses are part of that sentence and would be italicized, whereas if they surrounded the entire sentence they'd be unitalicized.

[Brandon]

Grammar and punctuation nazis.

[J N Winkler]

About punctuation and quotation marks...

I choose to put punctuation marks inside the quotation mark when it can be reasonably assumed to be part of the quote.

   Example:  Just last night my wife told me, 'I'm tired of cleaning up after you.'

However, I choose not to put it outside when it's part of the larger sentence, not the quote itself.

   Example:  I can't believe your mom actually used the phrase 'golden shower'!  (The exclamation was mine, not hers.)

When it's ambiguous, I usually choose to put it outside.

This is more or less the same rule that I follow, except that when a quote ends a sentence and no form of sentence-final punctuation other than a period is justified, I place the period within the quote.  The goal here is elegance (a period floating on the far side of a quotation mark looks ugly), not consistency of treatment of all forms of punctuation that can end a sentence.

I've encountered a couple of people who insisted that periods at the ends of sentences should not be required to do double duty.  In other words, they argued for the correctness of constructions such as "This style is required by the A.P.."  In each case I just shook my head, but didn't argue the toss with them, since I suspected they would walk into a buzzsaw sooner or later.  I guess they must have, since I haven't seen this particular quirk from either in any recent year.

Example:  Just last night, my wife told me, 'I'm tired of cleaning up after you', so I stuck my tongue out at her.

I'd reverse the order of the comma and the trailing quote mark for the same elegance reason quoted above.

While we're on minor punctuation...  It bothers me when people italicize parentheses.

Wrong:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.

Right:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.

Of all the abuses that occur in connection with parentheses, I think this must be among the least important.

More serious problems include the following:

*  Beginning a sentence outside parentheses and ending it within them:

I thought they were crazy (though I wouldn't tell them so.)

*  Embedding a complete sentence within parentheses that are themselves contained entirely within another sentence:

They shouldn't do that (However, they frequently do so.).

*  Misuse of commas in connection with parentheses, presumably as a result of misunderstanding now-archaic conventions.  First example is correct and modern; second example is correct and archaic; third example is not correct under any circumstances.

If you say that (and I think you should), then you should say these other things too.

If you say that (and I think you should,) then you should say these other things too.

If you say that (and I think you should,), then you should say these other things too.

There is some disagreement as to whether levels of nesting should be indicated by substituting braces brackets for even steps.  My take on this is that if nesting is a consideration, you need to pull back and think in terms of recasting sentences or even paragraphs.

Some argue that when a parenthetical statement spans multiple paragraphs, parentheses should be treated the same as quote marks at paragraph breaks--in other words, no closing parenthesis is used at the end of the preceding paragraph, while an opening parenthesis is used at the start of the instant paragraph.  Again, this is a signal to pull back and re-consider the text:  if the multi-paragraph matter is important enough to include, even in parentheses, shouldn't it be in a section of its own outside them?

Edit:  Changed braces since brackets was meant.

[kphoger]

While we're on minor punctuation...  It bothers me when people italicize parentheses.

Wrong:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.
Right:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.

The two sentences look identical: they're both italicized in full.
(Forgive me for looking at the code, seeing what you did, and getting a good chuckle out of it ...)

It's quite hard to tell the difference, actually.  You should be able to see the difference in a zoomed-in image, though.

Of all the abuses that occur in connection with parentheses, I think this must be among the least important.

Agreed.  In keeping with the topic, I tried to come up with a very minor one.  It only bothers me a tiny bit.

There is some disagreement as to whether levels of nesting should be indicated by substituting braces for even steps. 

I don't know what "even steps" are.

As for nesting parenthetical phrases, I used to use {[(...)]}, but nowadays I use (((...))) instead.

[webny99]

While we're on minor punctuation...  It bothers me when people italicize parentheses.

Wrong:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.
Right:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.

The two sentences look identical: they're both italicized in full.
(Forgive me for looking at the code, seeing what you did, and getting a good chuckle out of it ...)

[img snipped]
It's quite hard to tell the difference, actually. You should be able to see the difference in a zoomed-in image, though.

Aha. My misunderstanding. Here I was thinking you were talking about what was inside the parentheses, and paying no attention to the parentheses themselves.

[texaskdog]

People who block the way.  like when there are two lanes and neither is a right turn only lane and the one guy pulls up in the right lane when no one else is there.  or at the store that one person with a cart who can block a whole aisle, or one person on a sidewalk you can't get around, or two cars next to each other going the same speed.  God good move.

[jeffandnicole]

While we're on minor punctuation...  It bothers me when people italicize parentheses.

Wrong:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.
Right:  Greenland (which isn't very green, by the way) isn't as large as you'd think from looking at the map.

The two sentences look identical: they're both italicized in full.
(Forgive me for looking at the code, seeing what you did, and getting a good chuckle out of it ...)

[img snipped]
It's quite hard to tell the difference, actually. You should be able to see the difference in a zoomed-in image, though.

Aha. My misunderstanding. Here I was thinking you were talking about what was inside the parentheses, and paying no attention to the parentheses themselves.

If we had a contest for the most minor things to bother something, this will definitely be a contender.  I didn't notice the issue either until re-re-reviewing it.

[J N Winkler]

As for nesting parenthetical phrases, I used to use {[(...)]}, but nowadays I use (((...))) instead.

First step:  (. . .)

Second step:  (. . . [. . .] . . .)

Third step:  (. . . [. . . (. . .) . . .] . . .)

Und so weiter.

If I nest, I use brackets only, not braces (I see I used the wrong word in my post above, so I have edited it accordingly).  I still think the best advice is not to nest at all.  For this reason, I generally try to avoid quoting federal-aid project numbers--for which a traditional format, at least for Interstates, is FF-AA-B(CC)DD, with FF being the funding code ("I" for Interstate), AA being the route number, B being a section number, CC being an agreement number, and DD (optional) being the milepost--parenthetically, because of the parentheses around the agreement number.

[kphoger]

when there are two lanes and neither is a right turn only lane and the one guy pulls up in the right lane when no one else is there.

Already covered.  If I'm driving along in the right lane (which I do as often as possible) and the light in front of me turns red, I'm going to suddenly change lanes just because a hypothetical driver might want to turn right before it turns green again.

I see I used the wrong word in my post above, so I have edited it accordingly

Of course, I still have no idea what "even steps" are.

[MNHighwayMan]

To me, it looks weird to italicize words but not the punctuation beside them.

[texaskdog]

when there are two lanes and neither is a right turn only lane and the one guy pulls up in the right lane when no one else is there.

Already covered.  If I'm driving along in the right lane (which I do as often as possible) and the light in front of me turns red, I'm going to suddenly change lanes just because a hypothetical driver might want to turn right before it turns green again.

I see I used the wrong word in my post above, so I have edited it accordingly

Of course, I still have no idea what "even steps" are.

Yep I do.  Always a big row of cars turning on 290 every morning. 

[kphoger]

Just realized I missed the word "not" in that post of mine.

[formulanone]

Grammar and punctuation nazis.

I think they prefer to be called the alt-write.

[kphoger]

Grammer Nazis

Spelling Nazis

Grammar and punctuation nazis.

I think they prefer to be called the alt-write.

We prefer to be called the AltGr-Right, actually.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

Grammar and punctuation nazis.

[DaBigE]

People who drive with the rear-view mirror in night mode during the day

[Big John]

Merriam-Webster word of the year is the nonbinary meaning of "they".
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/10/786732456/merriam-webster-singles-out-nonbinary-they-for-word-of-the-year-honors?utm_campaign=npr&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=nprnews&fbclid=IwAR01fVgyoCfLntaTjMZqpMXtCzg0S8Y2kCZQp5Mlib8r7e7qqYmisTpALQg

[texaskdog]

Grammer Nazis

Spelling Nazis

Grammar and punctuation nazis.

I think they prefer to be called the alt-write.

We prefer to be called the AltGr-Right, actually.

I was waiting for someone to catch that.  Grammer, lol

[jakeroot]

This is more or less the same rule that I follow, except that when a quote ends a sentence and no form of sentence-final punctuation other than a period is justified, I place the period within the quote.  The goal here is elegance (a period floating on the far side of a quotation mark looks ugly), not consistency of treatment of all forms of punctuation that can end a sentence.

See, and I find it very inelegant to have a full stop before the quote. If the quote is part of the sentence prior to the full stop, why is the full stop placed prior to the last quotation mark? Having a quotation mark, a space, and then a capital letter looks stranger to me, since capital letters start the beginning of the sentence. Yes, there was a full stop prior to the quotation mark, but I don't find it as obvious compared to having the full-stop after the quotation mark.

If you start after the full stop, this is my problem:

" Sally wore...

^^^
This looks very strange to me. Even if you include the full stop prior to the quotation mark, there's still this floating quotation mark that seems unattached to anything because the full stop came prior to it. Even if more elegant to some, I just find it straight up strange.