71
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond%E2%80%93Petersburg_Turnpike
Tolls removed in 1992
Any discussion beyond the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike for this topic is practically fictional. I am unsure if there is any further point to this thread.
There are threads in the fictional board where people make up turnpikes for their state, I would suggest posting in one of those.
I'm not so sure "most states" is accurate, either.
Sounds like some history on the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike is overdue. The Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike included the 4 miles of the I-64/I-95 concurrency in downtown Richmond, I-95 from downtown Richmond to downtown Petersburg (about 25 miles), plus I-85 from downtown Petersburg out to Boydton Plank Road (about 5 miles). Since I-64 is the straight route west of the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike, I think it is fair to say that this toll road was split into three separate Interstate routes.
The Turnpike went north beyond the I-64 West split and ended at US-301 near Chamberlayne. I-95 was built north of there in 1963 as apart of the interstate highway system, toll free.
I-64 east and west of the Turnpike overlap was also constructed in the mid-to-late 1960s as toll free, interstate highway.
I looked at the Wikipedia article linked above, and it mentioned that the turnpike authority was founded in 1955. Interesting that if they waited another year, Virginia wouldn't have to construct it as a turnpike and could take advantage of the 90% federal funding for it.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 22, 2021, 09:05:20 PM
The Turnpike went north beyond the I-64 West split and ended at US-301 near Chamberlayne. I-95 was built north of there in 1963 as apart of the interstate highway system, toll free.
I-64 east and west of the Turnpike overlap was also constructed in the mid-to-late 1960s as toll free, interstate highway.
I recall one or more on-ramps or exits that were "improperly" tolled, but I can't remember where they were. Both the Brook Road (US-1) and Hermitage Road (VA-161) exits would have been free entrance/exit with tolls imposed on exits or at the Belvidere mainline tollgate. Anybody remember which exits were tolled either before or after paying the full fare?
I was going to comment on the Belvidere mainline tollgate, but it looks like
cpzilliacus beat me to it in the "old design deficiencies never fixed" thread:
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 15, 2014, 09:16:16 PM
I-95 (Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike) Exit 74C in Richmond, Virginia at East Broad Street (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.538656,-77.427353&num=1&t=h&z=16) features very sharp ramps and a design that dates back to the days when the Turnpike still charged tolls. Ironically, it is right around the corner from the Central Office of the Virginia Department of Transportation (VDOT).
The RPTA should have removed tolls on the downtown section many years before the end in 1992. When I lived in Richmond in the late-1980s, there were so many truck accidents from losing brakes approaching the Belvidere mainline tollgate going [eastbound] on I-95/I-64.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2021, 07:46:59 PM
I'm not so sure "most states" is accurate, either.
Wikipedia suggests there are 16 states that have a road (or, in Oklahoma's case, a road system) that could be considered to be the state's "Turnpike": CT, DE, FL, IL (Chicago Skyway; I'm not sure I think that's legitimately counted), IN, KS, KY (former), ME, MA, NH, NJ, NY, OH, OK, PA, and WV. Even counting the Richmond—Petersburg Turnpike, Virginia would only make 17 states (16 if you drop the Chicago Skyway, which I would, and 15 if you discount the Kentucky Turnpike, which is probably fair since it's no longer posted). I think it's fair to view a state's "turnpike" as being either a major arterial highway that operates or operated as a toll road, as in most of those examples, or a shorter road that is named as the state's turnpike (the New Hampshire Turnpike being the most obvious example). That way you exclude routes like TX-130, which is a toll road but is utterly insignificant in the overall context of that state's highway mileage.
Certainly that count in no way suggests that "most states have turnpikes."
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:01:27 PMa shorter road that is named as the state's turnpike (the New Hampshire Turnpike being the most obvious example)
It's a bit off-topic, but NHDOT doesn't even use the name "New Hampshire Turnpike" for I-95. It's the Blue Star Turnpike (or together with the Spaulding Turnpike, the Eastern Turnpike). The state only uses "New Hampshire Turnpike System" to refer to the Blue Star, Spaulding, and Everett all combined. So I'd say it only counts in the same way Oklahoma does.
(see https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/operations/turnpikes/system/index.htm)
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
What is an op?
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 23, 2021, 04:33:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
What is an op?
original poster
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
Even with some former states added - CO, MD, TX - still not to halfway.
Maybe the 18th century?
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 22, 2021, 09:46:19 PM
The RPTA should have removed tolls on the downtown section many years before the end in 1992. When I lived in Richmond in the late-1980s, there were so many truck accidents from losing brakes approaching the Belvidere mainline tollgate going [eastbound] on I-95/I-64.
Tolls were retained for many years after the original road was paid for. Some of the money supported improvements to the route but a lot of it was diverted to other area road projects such as the I-195 spur. Until the I-295 beltway was built, tolls on I-95 were a way to tap money from long-range travelers to support local development. Obviously VA was not the only state to think of this trick!
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 22, 2021, 09:46:19 PM
The RPTA should have removed tolls on the downtown section many years before the end in 1992. When I lived in Richmond in the late-1980s, there were so many truck accidents from losing brakes approaching the Belvidere mainline tollgate going [eastbound] on I-95/I-64.
Quote from: wdcrft63 on April 24, 2021, 06:29:44 PM
Tolls were retained for many years after the original road was paid for. Some of the money supported improvements to the route but a lot of it was diverted to other area road projects such as the I-195 spur. Until the I-295 beltway was built, tolls on I-95 were a way to tap money from long-range travelers to support local development. Obviously VA was not the only state to think of this trick!
The main point was that the nasty downhill approach to the Belvidere mainline tollgate was a huge safety problem. The tollgate could have been removed from downtown and RPTA still could have raised tolls elsewhere, or added tollgates north and south of there.
It was fun to pull up to the RPTA and RMA tollgates back in those days. When I had locals in the car with me, I would toss in coins and say "Chuck" and wait until the gate raised and say "Robb".
Interesting tidbits about the Kentucky Turnpike. Locals in Shepherdsville still call I-65 "the turnpike." And there is a street called Toll View (can't remember the suffix) that was built when the road still has tolls.
Now, there are no tolls so you don't have to pay. A few miles to the south, it intersects US Federal Route 31-Dub in the general vicinity of a little green shrub.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 24, 2021, 09:24:10 PM
....
It was fun to pull up to the RPTA and RMA tollgates back in those days. When I had locals in the car with me, I would toss in coins and say "Chuck" and wait until the gate raised and say "Robb".
I remember a school trip to Chester on a Saturday in 1990 or 1991 for which the teacher used a school system—owned car (it was only a small group of students going) in which he had the kid riding shotgun flip the coins across over the roof of the car from the passenger's window–essentially, like shooting a hook shot in basketball. Good thing there somehow wasn't a lot of traffic behind us, as it took more than one attempt.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:01:27 PMa shorter road that is named as the state's turnpike (the New Hampshire Turnpike being the most obvious example)
It's a bit off-topic, but NHDOT doesn't even use the name "New Hampshire Turnpike" for I-95. It's the Blue Star Turnpike (or together with the Spaulding Turnpike, the Eastern Turnpike). The state only uses "New Hampshire Turnpike System" to refer to the Blue Star, Spaulding, and Everett all combined. So I'd say it only counts in the same way Oklahoma does.
(see https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/operations/turnpikes/system/index.htm)
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
This is correct. Though I can recall long ago (1970?) before the connection between the southern end of the Maine Turnpike and the northern end of (what is now) I-95 in New Hampshire was made, traffic had to use the road signed as Bypass U.S. 1 to cross the Piscataqua River, and then use the large traffic circle on the outskirts of Portsmouth, N.H. to get to the New Hampshire Turnpike (which was signed as such in those days).
Quote from: 74/171FAN on April 22, 2021, 07:39:36 PM
Any discussion beyond the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike for this topic is practically fictional. I am unsure if there is any further point to this thread.
I respectfully disagree. In the 1950's, there was an Old Dominion Turnpike Authority, though nothing ever came of it and it was eventually abolished. It filed reports with the Virginia General Assembly, but they are not online.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 25, 2021, 12:37:03 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on April 22, 2021, 07:39:36 PM
Any discussion beyond the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike for this topic is practically fictional. I am unsure if there is any further point to this thread.
I respectfully disagree. In the 1950's, there was an Old Dominion Turnpike Authority, though nothing ever came of it and it was eventually abolished. It filed reports with the Virginia General Assembly, but they are not online.
Well you are right then because I did not know that. :D Then again, my parents were born in the mid 1950s so they would have been too young to have any clue that this existed.
Existing and proposed toll roads as of 1955 (http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/yellowbook/tollroads-1955.jpg). Wasn't just the Richmond-Petersburg in Virginia. This map shows active plans/proposals in 25 states at that time. Of course, the passing of the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 the following year made many of these plans/proposals moot.
VDOT makes reference to the aforementioned Old Dominion Turnpike Authority here (https://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/historyofrds.pdf). The description suggests that authority was created to build a turnpike along today's I-77 corridor to tie into the WV Turnpike and one that was proposed in North Carolina.
Quote from: froggie on April 26, 2021, 12:24:45 AM
Existing and proposed toll roads as of 1955 (http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/yellowbook/tollroads-1955.jpg). Wasn't just the Richmond-Petersburg in Virginia. This map shows active plans/proposals in 25 states at that time. Of course, the passing of the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 the following year made many of these plans/proposals moot.
VDOT makes reference to the aforementioned Old Dominion Turnpike Authority here (https://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/historyofrds.pdf). The description suggests that authority was created to build a turnpike along today's I-77 corridor to tie into the WV Turnpike and one that was proposed in North Carolina.
I believe you are correct - the ODTA was to build a connection between North Carolina and West Virginia, connecting to the West Virginia Turnpike north of Bluefield, though I have never seen any of its reports.
Traffic is so bad on 95 from exit 126 to the beltway it really should just become like the NJTP from exit 6 north.
Quote from: bluecountry on April 26, 2021, 09:11:22 AM
Traffic is so bad on 95 from exit 126 to the beltway it really should just become like the NJTP from exit 6 north.
Unfortunately, the only improvements VDOT has planned are HO/T lanes. It will help to some extent, but it's not going to fix things. That area badly needs general purpose expansion to at least 8 lanes. Better yet, an Outer Bypass along the US-301 corridor would go a long way as well, at least allowing through traffic to bypass the region, but that's not happening either.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 25, 2021, 12:19:34 PM
This is correct. Though I can recall long ago (1970?) before the connection between the southern end of the Maine Turnpike and the northern end of (what is now) I-95 in New Hampshire was made, traffic had to use the road signed as Bypass U.S. 1 to cross the Piscataqua River, and then use the large traffic circle on the outskirts of Portsmouth, N.H. to get to the New Hampshire Turnpike (which was signed as such in those days).
The I-95 Piscataqua River Bridge opened in 1972, so yeah, in 1970 you would have crossed the old Sarah Long Bridge.
In a way, the RPT could very well have been considered as "VA's Turnpike". While it was only 35 miles long and was eventually also used as a commuter route (especially after I-64 was completed in the area), it definitely was built for and used by long distance traffic, and was one of the key sections of highway for north-south East Coast traffic. Though the toll plazas became major choke points in the last years of tolling, the road drastically reduced the time it took to drive through the region. There are pictures online showing some of the horrendous backups that occurred along US 1/301 before the turnpike opened.
The Belvidere toll plaza wasn't the only one where trucks or even cars slammed into it but it was indeed the most crash prone. All of the mainline plazas (including I-85) were struck at some point or another. The Chippenham EB (SB) ramp toll plaza was also struck at least twice, just going off what I remember. A big problem was where they were situated: around or near curves, as well as at the bottom of hills like what was stated upthread.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2021, 12:50:46 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 26, 2021, 12:24:45 AM
Existing and proposed toll roads as of 1955 (http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/yellowbook/tollroads-1955.jpg). Wasn't just the Richmond-Petersburg in Virginia. This map shows active plans/proposals in 25 states at that time. Of course, the passing of the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 the following year made many of these plans/proposals moot.
VDOT makes reference to the aforementioned Old Dominion Turnpike Authority here (https://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/historyofrds.pdf). The description suggests that authority was created to build a turnpike along today's I-77 corridor to tie into the WV Turnpike and one that was proposed in North Carolina.
I believe you are correct - the ODTA was to build a connection between North Carolina and West Virginia, connecting to the West Virginia Turnpike north of Bluefield, though I have never seen any of its reports.
There was also the Coastal Turnpike Authority which was formed in 1950. It was for building a toll road to Nags Head from Virginia Beach.
See pg. 19 at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112064104489&view=1up&seq=19&q1=turnpike
A toll road or similar freeway along the NC-168 / US-158 corridor would be incredibly useful to have today, particularly during peak weekends.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 26, 2021, 12:54:29 PM
A toll road or similar freeway along the NC-168 / US-158 corridor would be incredibly useful to have today, particularly during peak weekends.
It would've been along the NC 12 corridor and the still inaccessible part of the coastal barrier island.
Seen a couple maps with dotted lines...
Quote from: Mapmikey on April 26, 2021, 01:10:27 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 26, 2021, 12:54:29 PM
A toll road or similar freeway along the NC-168 / US-158 corridor would be incredibly useful to have today, particularly during peak weekends.
It would've been along the NC 12 corridor and the still inaccessible part of the coastal barrier island.
Seen a couple maps with dotted lines...
I can't even fathom such a road being built that close to the ocean. I for one am glad that it didn't happen. NC already have enough trouble keeping just regular roads in that area in one piece,
especially NC 12.
^^ The 1965 Southside Transportation Plan shows the then-proposed Virginia Beach terminus in the general vicinity of today's General Booth/Nimmo intersection. From there it was to head southeast to Sandbridge, then south along the beach. It would have decimated Sandbridge.
I can't even see that as being feasible back then, but who knows.
If they had proposed such a toll road on something, per se, like today's route, it would've had a better likelihood of actually being built.
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 22, 2021, 07:33:15 PM
Most states have turnpikes but Virginia doesn't, why and could there be a Virginia Turnpike.
Is the Dulles Toll Road not good enough? It's longer than the Delaware Turnpike! Who ever said a state's turnpike has to go through the entire state? Florida's and Maine's don't. Kansas's only goes between two adjacent sides of an almost-rectangle. Indiana's is pretty far from most of Indiana.
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 28, 2021, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 22, 2021, 07:33:15 PM
Most states have turnpikes but Virginia doesn't, why and could there be a Virginia Turnpike.
Is the Dulles Toll Road not good enough? It's longer than the Delaware Turnpike! Who ever said a state's turnpike has to go through the entire state? Florida's and Maine's don't. Kansas's only goes between two adjacent sides of an almost-rectangle. Indiana's is pretty far from most of Indiana.
For turnpikes that cover the state's population centers well, I'll say that NY is the best at that. Pennsylvania is pretty good too, with the two largest metros and capital covered by the mainline, and two other major metros in the state covered by the Northeast Extension.
If Ohio constructed their second turnpike through the 3C cities, they would be set with their turnpike coverage too.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
I'd say Maryland should be on that list too. We have a turnpike in everything but name. Heck it was built with the Delaware Turnpike. And they were opened together. The MDTA considers itself to have two turnpikes. One is obviously I-95 from Baltimore to Delaware. The other would be the ICC/MD 200.
QuoteThe MDTA's eight toll facilities-two turnpikes, two tunnels, and four bridges-help keep traffic moving in Maryland.
https://mdta.maryland.gov/About/About_the_MDTA.html
And Indiana's toll road does not have turnpike in it's name either.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 26, 2021, 09:12:50 AM
Quote from: bluecountry on April 26, 2021, 09:11:22 AM
Traffic is so bad on 95 from exit 126 to the beltway it really should just become like the NJTP from exit 6 north.
Unfortunately, the only improvements VDOT has planned are HO/T lanes. It will help to some extent, but it's not going to fix things. That area badly needs general purpose expansion to at least 8 lanes. Better yet, an Outer Bypass along the US-301 corridor would go a long way as well, at least allowing through traffic to bypass the region, but that's not happening either.
They are studying to see if they can
1) Make the HOT lanes bi-directional
2) Make the shoulder lane in the NON HOT lane section now in use
But yes, at the VERY VERY least the HOT lanes need to be bi-directional to exit 126, and we really need 8 general purpose lanes to Woodbridge.
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 28, 2021, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 22, 2021, 07:33:15 PM
Most states have turnpikes but Virginia doesn't, why and could there be a Virginia Turnpike.
Is the Dulles Toll Road not good enough? It's longer than the Delaware Turnpike! Who ever said a state's turnpike has to go through the entire state? Florida's and Maine's don't. Kansas's only goes between two adjacent sides of an almost-rectangle. Indiana's is pretty far from most of Indiana.
The Dulles Toll road goes through a lot less of the state percentage-wise than any of the other Turnpikes do. Also it's not called the "Virginia Turnpike".
Quote from: bluecountry on April 28, 2021, 11:05:29 PM
They are studying to see if they can
1) Make the HOT lanes bi-directional
[snipped]
But yes, at the VERY VERY least the HOT lanes need to be bi-directional to exit 126, and we really need 8 general purpose lanes to Woodbridge.
I strongly disagree. The 95Express and 395Express were designed and engineered to be reversible and to run in ONE DIRECTION ONLY. Allowing two-way operation is IMO likely to lead to a lot of head-on crashes.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 29, 2021, 10:31:31 AM
Quote from: bluecountry on April 28, 2021, 11:05:29 PM
They are studying to see if they can
1) Make the HOT lanes bi-directional
[snipped]
But yes, at the VERY VERY least the HOT lanes need to be bi-directional to exit 126, and we really need 8 general purpose lanes to Woodbridge.
I strongly disagree. The 95Express and 395Express were designed and engineered to be reversible and to run in ONE DIRECTION ONLY. Allowing two-way operation is IMO likely to lead to a lot of head-on crashes.
Surely what is meant by bi-directional is building a new set of lanes to go with the existing set...
Under no scenario (jersey barrier, striping, whatever) could you make the current lanes bi-directional and still have the same number of lanes operating in a given direction that is present now.
A different solution also being thought about is opening the left and right shoulders of the mainline lanes in the opposite direction of what the Express lanes are doing at any given time. Doing this would in theory add 2 lanes to gp lanes without triggering a compensation event. Right off the top of my head I do not know if 95 gp lanes have full width left and right shoulders everywhere in both directions.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 29, 2021, 10:31:31 AM
Quote from: bluecountry on April 28, 2021, 11:05:29 PM
They are studying to see if they can
1) Make the HOT lanes bi-directional
[snipped]
But yes, at the VERY VERY least the HOT lanes need to be bi-directional to exit 126, and we really need 8 general purpose lanes to Woodbridge.
I strongly disagree. The 95Express and 395Express were designed and engineered to be reversible and to run in ONE DIRECTION ONLY. Allowing two-way operation is IMO likely to lead to a lot of head-on crashes.
A new 2 lane roadway would have to be built parallel to the existing... how would a barrier separation cause head on crashes?
Quote from: BrianP on April 28, 2021, 06:07:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
I'd say Maryland should be on that list too. We have a turnpike in everything but name. Heck it was built with the Delaware Turnpike. And they were opened together. The MDTA considers itself to have two turnpikes. One is obviously I-95 from Baltimore to Delaware. The other would be the ICC/MD 200.
QuoteThe MDTA's eight toll facilities-two turnpikes, two tunnels, and four bridges-help keep traffic moving in Maryland.
https://mdta.maryland.gov/About/About_the_MDTA.html
And Indiana's toll road does not have turnpike in it's name either.
I know this would never ever happen but Maryland Turnpike should be I-68, and then I-70, then I-695, Then I-95, then I-495 then US-50 until Ocean City.
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 01:45:33 PM
Quote from: BrianP on April 28, 2021, 06:07:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
I'd say Maryland should be on that list too. We have a turnpike in everything but name. Heck it was built with the Delaware Turnpike. And they were opened together. The MDTA considers itself to have two turnpikes. One is obviously I-95 from Baltimore to Delaware. The other would be the ICC/MD 200.
QuoteThe MDTA's eight toll facilities-two turnpikes, two tunnels, and four bridges-help keep traffic moving in Maryland.
https://mdta.maryland.gov/About/About_the_MDTA.html
And Indiana's toll road does not have turnpike in it's name either.
I know this would never ever happen but Maryland Turnpike should be I-68, and then I-70, then I-695, Then I-95, then I-495 then US-50 until Ocean City.
I-95 would make more sense as it connects the biggest cities in Maryland.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 03:24:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 01:45:33 PM
I know this would never ever happen but Maryland Turnpike should be I-68, and then I-70, then I-695, Then I-95, then I-495 then US-50 until Ocean City.
I-95 would make more sense as it connects the biggest city in Maryland.
FTFY :-D As noted by
BrianP, the JFK Highway segment of I-95 is already the closest thing there is to a Maryland Turnpike. (Granted, if it weren't for the 2 service plazas it would simply appear to be a freeway with a toll bridge...)
But while we're being fictional, I kinda like
Angelo71's idea, except maybe tweak it to follow MD 32 between I-70 & I-97. Serves more of MD's regions* like Cumberland, Hagerstown, Frederick, Annapolis, Salisbury, OC (and of course the overall DC/Bmore area).
*worded like this since a lot of MD's most populated cities are DC/Bmore suburbs.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 29, 2021, 10:31:31 AM
Quote from: bluecountry on April 28, 2021, 11:05:29 PM
They are studying to see if they can
1) Make the HOT lanes bi-directional
[snipped]
But yes, at the VERY VERY least the HOT lanes need to be bi-directional to exit 126, and we really need 8 general purpose lanes to Woodbridge.
I strongly disagree. The 95Express and 395Express were designed and engineered to be reversible and to run in ONE DIRECTION ONLY. Allowing two-way operation is IMO likely to lead to a lot of head-on crashes.
Or they could employ a zipper barrier like they use on I15 north in San Diego, allows the 4 HOT lanes to be 3 one way and 1 in the opposite direction or 2 and 2
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 03:24:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 01:45:33 PM
Quote from: BrianP on April 28, 2021, 06:07:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
I'd say Maryland should be on that list too. We have a turnpike in everything but name. Heck it was built with the Delaware Turnpike. And they were opened together. The MDTA considers itself to have two turnpikes. One is obviously I-95 from Baltimore to Delaware. The other would be the ICC/MD 200.
QuoteThe MDTA's eight toll facilities-two turnpikes, two tunnels, and four bridges-help keep traffic moving in Maryland.
https://mdta.maryland.gov/About/About_the_MDTA.html
And Indiana's toll road does not have turnpike in it's name either.
I know this would never ever happen but Maryland Turnpike should be I-68, and then I-70, then I-695, Then I-95, then I-495 then US-50 until Ocean City.
I-95 would make more sense as it connects the biggest cities in Maryland.
Well mine connects the far western reaches to Baltimore and then to Ocean City. Using I-95 would leave Delmarvans and people in the west unconnected.
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 30, 2021, 08:20:28 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 03:24:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 01:45:33 PM
Quote from: BrianP on April 28, 2021, 06:07:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on April 23, 2021, 04:22:06 PM
....
Also, I'd image Illinois counts not for the Chicago Skyway, but for the ISTHA's Illinois Tollway (https://goo.gl/maps/vKQeNvkVYwdkUmzYA) system. ;-)
That's fair. The following is the list to which I was referring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnpike
Either way, though, I think my point still stands: There is no way "most states have turnpikes," as the OP said.
I'd say Maryland should be on that list too. We have a turnpike in everything but name. Heck it was built with the Delaware Turnpike. And they were opened together. The MDTA considers itself to have two turnpikes. One is obviously I-95 from Baltimore to Delaware. The other would be the ICC/MD 200.
QuoteThe MDTA's eight toll facilities-two turnpikes, two tunnels, and four bridges-help keep traffic moving in Maryland.
https://mdta.maryland.gov/About/About_the_MDTA.html
And Indiana's toll road does not have turnpike in it's name either.
I know this would never ever happen but Maryland Turnpike should be I-68, and then I-70, then I-695, Then I-95, then I-495 then US-50 until Ocean City.
I-95 would make more sense as it connects the biggest cities in Maryland.
Well mine connects the far western reaches to Baltimore and then to Ocean City. Using I-95 would leave Delmarvans and people in the west unconnected.
I-95 north of Baltimore was the original "Maryland Turnpike". I-68 connecting west of I-70 wasn't even conceived until the late 1960s and wasn't finished and designated until 1991.
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on April 30, 2021, 07:40:09 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 29, 2021, 10:31:31 AM
Quote from: bluecountry on April 28, 2021, 11:05:29 PM
They are studying to see if they can
1) Make the HOT lanes bi-directional
[snipped]
But yes, at the VERY VERY least the HOT lanes need to be bi-directional to exit 126, and we really need 8 general purpose lanes to Woodbridge.
I strongly disagree. The 95Express and 395Express were designed and engineered to be reversible and to run in ONE DIRECTION ONLY. Allowing two-way operation is IMO likely to lead to a lot of head-on crashes.
Or they could employ a zipper barrier like they use on I15 north in San Diego, allows the 4 HOT lanes to be 3 one way and 1 in the opposite direction or 2 and 2
There would have to be two of those zipper machines and they would have to cover an extremely long distance; alternatively, they'd need a heck of a lot of zipper machines. The reversible carriageway on I-95/I-395 is around 37 miles long at present (around 27 miles on I-95 plus around 10 miles on I-395), plus another 10-mile southern extension currently under construction. Not something that lends itself to zipper barriers.
Straying into fictional territory, but I do think a zipper setup might work on a shorter section of 95...I'm thinking Woodbridge to Springfield. South of Woodbridge (really Prince William Pkwy), there's more room in the median so better able to build two express carriageways. Likewise, north of Springfield I don't think anything bigger than what exists would work.
Downside of having express lanes in both directions is you'd by standard need to have at least one semi-full paved shoulder on each side. That would be tough to do through Newington.
Quote from: froggie on May 01, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
Straying into fictional territory, but I do think a zipper setup might work on a shorter section of 95...I'm thinking Woodbridge to Springfield. South of Woodbridge (really Prince William Pkwy), there's more room in the median so better able to build two express carriageways. Likewise, north of Springfield I don't think anything bigger than what exists would work.
Downside of having express lanes in both directions is you'd by standard need to have at least one semi-full paved shoulder on each side. That would be tough to do through Newington.
Some regions have gotten away without providing a shoulder, and merely have a setup similar to I-495 but with the inner lane pressed up on the wall, usually due to restricted right of way constraints. Not suggesting it for this region, but it is an option.
Hampton Roads's currently under construction system will feature at least two portions that will have 1 HO/T lane in each direction, plus a paved shoulder that will be opened up during peak hours to provide 2. During those peak hours, there would be no shoulder. IMO, they should merely just make it a full-time 2 lanes each way to at least allow passing slower vehicles. Implement technology along the corridor that can close the shoulder lane if needed for an emergency, but otherwise let it operate full time.
A Virginia Turnpike could be I-81 until I-66, and then I-66 then to I-95 then I-64?
Or there could be multiple
Virginia Turnpike-Blue Ridge Turnpike I-81
Virginia Turnpike-Coastal Turnpike I-95 and then I-64
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 01, 2021, 11:25:04 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 01, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
Straying into fictional territory, but I do think a zipper setup might work on a shorter section of 95...I'm thinking Woodbridge to Springfield. South of Woodbridge (really Prince William Pkwy), there's more room in the median so better able to build two express carriageways. Likewise, north of Springfield I don't think anything bigger than what exists would work.
Downside of having express lanes in both directions is you'd by standard need to have at least one semi-full paved shoulder on each side. That would be tough to do through Newington.
Some regions have gotten away without providing a shoulder, and merely have a setup similar to I-495 but with the inner lane pressed up on the wall, usually due to restricted right of way constraints. Not suggesting it for this region, but it is an option.
Hampton Roads's currently under construction system will feature at least two portions that will have 1 HO/T lane in each direction, plus a paved shoulder that will be opened up during peak hours to provide 2. During those peak hours, there would be no shoulder. IMO, they should merely just make it a full-time 2 lanes each way to at least allow passing slower vehicles. Implement technology along the corridor that can close the shoulder lane if needed for an emergency, but otherwise let it operate full time.
I believe VDOT's wariness of that sort of thing comes in part from their experience with I-95 between Springfield and Woodbridge. At one point in the late 1980s or early 1990s, the right shoulder was designated as a lane to be used in rush hours only. Problem was, some people ignored that restriction, and it resulted in multiple crashes, including an ugly fatal crash when a tractor-trailer being driven in that lane illegally when it wasn't opened to traffic slammed into a disabled Mustang. That experience is one reason why I-66 had the colored shoulder "lane" with the red X/green arrow overhead indicators. Of course some people ignored those too, but on the whole compliance was better (or should I say "less bad"?) than it was on I-95. I think at one point on I-95 they gave up and declared the shoulder to be a full-time lane. I don't like that idea a lot because cars don't always have the decency to break down near the "emergency pull-off" areas. My mom's old car broke down on westbound I-66 during the morning rush hour in 2008 or 2009, and the car she had before that also broke down on westbound I-66 when my brother was driving it (the radiator cracked suddenly)–I guess the lesson there is, Mom, stay off I-66, but in all seriousness that sort of thing makes me all the more aware of the hazard of not having a shoulder.
Quote from: Angelo71 on May 01, 2021, 12:07:33 PM
A Virginia Turnpike could be I-81 until I-66, and then I-66 then to I-95 then I-64?
Or there could be multiple
Virginia Turnpike-Blue Ridge Turnpike I-81
Virginia Turnpike-Coastal Turnpike I-95 and then I-64
Fictional Highways
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 01, 2021, 05:08:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on May 01, 2021, 12:07:33 PM
A Virginia Turnpike could be I-81 until I-66, and then I-66 then to I-95 then I-64?
Or there could be multiple
Virginia Turnpike-Blue Ridge Turnpike I-81
Virginia Turnpike-Coastal Turnpike I-95 and then I-64
Fictional Highways
How? It uses current interstates.
Quote from: Angelo71 on May 01, 2021, 05:48:27 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 01, 2021, 05:08:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on May 01, 2021, 12:07:33 PM
A Virginia Turnpike could be I-81 until I-66, and then I-66 then to I-95 then I-64?
Or there could be multiple
Virginia Turnpike-Blue Ridge Turnpike I-81
Virginia Turnpike-Coastal Turnpike I-95 and then I-64
Fictional Highways
How? It uses current interstates.
But it's a fictional plan not being considered by VDOT.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 01, 2021, 11:25:04 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 01, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
Straying into fictional territory, but I do think a zipper setup might work on a shorter section of 95...I'm thinking Woodbridge to Springfield. South of Woodbridge (really Prince William Pkwy), there's more room in the median so better able to build two express carriageways. Likewise, north of Springfield I don't think anything bigger than what exists would work.
Downside of having express lanes in both directions is you'd by standard need to have at least one semi-full paved shoulder on each side. That would be tough to do through Newington.
Some regions have gotten away without providing a shoulder, and merely have a setup similar to I-495 but with the inner lane pressed up on the wall, usually due to restricted right of way constraints. Not suggesting it for this region, but it is an option.
Hampton Roads's currently under construction system will feature at least two portions that will have 1 HO/T lane in each direction, plus a paved shoulder that will be opened up during peak hours to provide 2. During those peak hours, there would be no shoulder. IMO, they should merely just make it a full-time 2 lanes each way to at least allow passing slower vehicles. Implement technology along the corridor that can close the shoulder lane if needed for an emergency, but otherwise let it operate full time.
There is at least one segment of the 95 express lanes with no full shoulder on both sides as it is now.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2021, 05:06:46 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 01, 2021, 11:25:04 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 01, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
Straying into fictional territory, but I do think a zipper setup might work on a shorter section of 95...I'm thinking Woodbridge to Springfield. South of Woodbridge (really Prince William Pkwy), there's more room in the median so better able to build two express carriageways. Likewise, north of Springfield I don't think anything bigger than what exists would work.
Downside of having express lanes in both directions is you'd by standard need to have at least one semi-full paved shoulder on each side. That would be tough to do through Newington.
Some regions have gotten away without providing a shoulder, and merely have a setup similar to I-495 but with the inner lane pressed up on the wall, usually due to restricted right of way constraints. Not suggesting it for this region, but it is an option.
Hampton Roads's currently under construction system will feature at least two portions that will have 1 HO/T lane in each direction, plus a paved shoulder that will be opened up during peak hours to provide 2. During those peak hours, there would be no shoulder. IMO, they should merely just make it a full-time 2 lanes each way to at least allow passing slower vehicles. Implement technology along the corridor that can close the shoulder lane if needed for an emergency, but otherwise let it operate full time.
I believe VDOT's wariness of that sort of thing comes in part from their experience with I-95 between Springfield and Woodbridge. At one point in the late 1980s or early 1990s, the right shoulder was designated as a lane to be used in rush hours only. Problem was, some people ignored that restriction, and it resulted in multiple crashes, including an ugly fatal crash when a tractor-trailer being driven in that lane illegally when it wasn't opened to traffic slammed into a disabled Mustang. That experience is one reason why I-66 had the colored shoulder "lane" with the red X/green arrow overhead indicators. Of course some people ignored those too, but on the whole compliance was better (or should I say "less bad"?) than it was on I-95. I think at one point on I-95 they gave up and declared the shoulder to be a full-time lane. I don't like that idea a lot because cars don't always have the decency to break down near the "emergency pull-off" areas. My mom's old car broke down on westbound I-66 during the morning rush hour in 2008 or 2009, and the car she had before that also broke down on westbound I-66 when my brother was driving it (the radiator cracked suddenly)–I guess the lesson there is, Mom, stay off I-66, but in all seriousness that sort of thing makes me all the more aware of the hazard of not having a shoulder.
Also, that interim HOV-3 lane (left lane when restricted) never worked especially well (and a similar concurrent-flow HOV lanes on I-66 between U.S. 29 at Gainesville and I-495 was never especially effective either).
IMO I-95 SHOULD be a turnpike from I-295 to exit 126 when it goes to the HOT/Express.
Those funds could pay for I-95 to be 8 lanes (4-4) from I-295 to exit 126.
6 lanes is NOT sufficient there.