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Proposed I-475 through downtown Flint, Michigan ...

Started by renegade, October 22, 2020, 02:54:53 PM

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renegade

Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.


silverback1065

475 is Probably not needed anymore in downtown flint. But I doubt this will happen. Sounds like what they tried to convince indot to do on 65/70 in Indianapolis.

JREwing78

I don't think they necessarily need to rip out I-475 in this area. They have a number of options, particularly since it's already a depressed freeway.

They could cover the I-475 roadway through downtown with park space, for example (like in Oak Park). The frontage streets (Chavez Dr) could be converted to two-way operation with roundabouts at the entrances and exits. They could also eliminate the exits/entrances between 5th St. and Longway Blvd, and reconnect the cross streets. All of this can be done without pulling out I-475 altogether.

In the Rochester example cited, the Inner Loop was strictly for traffic to/from downtown. It had no regional importance as a roadway. That made it an easier call to rip it out in their case. The Rochester example is more analogous to the I-375 discussion in Detroit.

MDOT's choices are either to somehow maintain I-475 in the area (with adjustments to make its presence less of an issue in downtown), or to scrap the N-S roadway and reroute it on a more easterly bypass.

Or, like the State of Michigan was fond of doing under the previous administration, tell Flint to pound sand. That's probably not advisable, though.

Ultimately, it's probably cheaper to cover I-475 with park space and reconfigure the surface streets.

Terry Shea

What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!

Rothman

Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence?  I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Terry Shea

Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence?  I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly.  So leave it alone.  There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town.  Totally backwards thinking.  Ever travel I-75 on weekends?  Backups are horrible and there are few viable options.  A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23.  There's already a fair amount of traffic on  I-475.  It needs to stay free flowing.

mgk920

How are traffic numbers on I-475, including historic trends?

Mike

I-55

Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence?  I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly.  So leave it alone.  There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town.  Totally backwards thinking.  Ever travel I-75 on weekends?  Backups are horrible and there are few viable options.  A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23.  There's already a fair amount of traffic on  I-475.  It needs to stay free flowing.

Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Let's Go Purdue Basketball Whoosh

Flint1979

What a stupid idea. I-475 has nearly 60,000 VPD just north of the I-69 interchange and they want to make it into a boulevard? It's a high speed federal Interstate highway. MDOT won't ever approve this.

GaryV

Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.

Flint1979

Quote from: mgk920 on October 23, 2020, 11:48:49 PM
How are traffic numbers on I-475, including historic trends?

Mike
They are around 60,000 a day near downtown Flint north of the I-69 interchange and around 18,000 the lowest count on the freeway on the northern part by Clio Road.

Terry Shea

Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2020, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.

That's putting it mildly.  MDOT seems to absolutely hate Interstates, or at least interstate numbers!

Flint1979

Quote from: Terry Shea on October 24, 2020, 11:28:57 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2020, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.

That's putting it mildly.  MDOT seems to absolutely hate Interstates, or at least interstate numbers!
I don't think they hate interstates I think that they have announced that they are done building interstates though. So even I-73 which was the last proposed interstate in Michigan will never even enter the state probably not even Ohio either.

Terry Shea

Quote from: Flint1979 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:20 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 24, 2020, 11:28:57 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2020, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.

That's putting it mildly.  MDOT seems to absolutely hate Interstates, or at least interstate numbers!
I don't think they hate interstates I think that they have announced that they are done building interstates though. So even I-73 which was the last proposed interstate in Michigan will never even enter the state probably not even Ohio either.
They refused to put an interstate number on M-6 and removed signage on I-296 saying it was too confusing having X-96's.  It's insulting.  They might just as well say people in West Michigan are stupid.

GaryV

Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.

I-55

Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.

Or they're saying "our roads are crap and aren't worthy of these signs" without blaming themselves.
Let's Go Purdue Basketball Whoosh

Flint1979

Quote from: I-55 on October 25, 2020, 08:25:17 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.

Or they're saying "our roads are crap and aren't worthy of these signs" without blaming themselves.
Actually the MDOT maintained roads aren't in terrible shape it's the local and county roads that are most of the time.

Flint1979

Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence?  I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly.  So leave it alone.  There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town.  Totally backwards thinking.  Ever travel I-75 on weekends?  Backups are horrible and there are few viable options.  A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23.  There's already a fair amount of traffic on  I-475.  It needs to stay free flowing.
Let's be honest here we are talking about Flint city officials, they always are backwards thinking things. I don't even know why a city official would even suggest such a thing, doesn't Flint have bigger problems to worry about than this? I think so. It's a highway maintained by MDOT not the city so they can take this proposal and shove it up their sorry asses. I'm not talking that way to you of course but Flint city officials rather because they never have a good plan to improve anything in the city of Flint.

Terry Shea

Quote from: Flint1979 on October 25, 2020, 08:37:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence?  I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly.  So leave it alone.  There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town.  Totally backwards thinking.  Ever travel I-75 on weekends?  Backups are horrible and there are few viable options.  A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23.  There's already a fair amount of traffic on  I-475.  It needs to stay free flowing.
Let's be honest here we are talking about Flint city officials, they always are backwards thinking things. I don't even know why a city official would even suggest such a thing, doesn't Flint have bigger problems to worry about than this? I think so. It's a highway maintained by MDOT not the city so they can take this proposal and shove it up their sorry asses. I'm not talking that way to you of course but Flint city officials rather because they never have a good plan to improve anything in the city of Flint.
I agree, but it's still no excuse for such stupidity.

silverback1065

Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.

but roads with that "fancy RWB shield" get special funding from the feds.

bulldog1979

Quote from: silverback1065 on October 26, 2020, 08:28:40 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.

but roads with that "fancy RWB shield" get special funding from the feds.

They got special funding. Anything new since 1978 hasn't been funded under the original 90—10 funding split. The I-95—PA Turnpike Interchange Project was the last project to be funded from the original Interstate trust fund.

Rothman

#21
Quote from: bulldog1979 on October 26, 2020, 08:51:37 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 26, 2020, 08:28:40 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.

but roads with that "fancy RWB shield" get special funding from the feds.

They got special funding. Anything new since 1978 hasn't been funded under the original 90—10 funding split. The I-95—PA Turnpike Interchange Project was the last project to be funded from the original Interstate trust fund.
I think you're wrong on this.  Original interstate funding hasn't been around for years (at least, not for the last fifteen years or so I've worked for a DOT in capital program management).  I suppose PA may have saved some up since 1978 (and, come to think of it, I wonder about the Turnpike's share and how that all worked out in terms of the interchange funding), but that old Interstate funding was pretty much gone.

There has been newer interstate funding that was and is still 90-10.  This included the now defunct Interstate Maintenance funding from the pre MAP-21 days (a large program) and now the National Highway Performance Program funding, which allows for 90-10 on Interstates, I believe also on approved new additions to the system (if I'm wrong, then it's still 80-20, anyway).  NHP is one of the largest FHWA programs that funds state's capital programs.

To be clear, it's not additional NHPP funding and is carved out of a state's apportionment when used, but it would still be able to be used at that higher percentage, unless I'm remembering the eligibility rules incorrectly (and it is almost 1:30 a.m. my time...).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Flint1979

Quote from: Terry Shea on October 25, 2020, 09:58:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 25, 2020, 08:37:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence?  I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly.  So leave it alone.  There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town.  Totally backwards thinking.  Ever travel I-75 on weekends?  Backups are horrible and there are few viable options.  A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23.  There's already a fair amount of traffic on  I-475.  It needs to stay free flowing.
Let's be honest here we are talking about Flint city officials, they always are backwards thinking things. I don't even know why a city official would even suggest such a thing, doesn't Flint have bigger problems to worry about than this? I think so. It's a highway maintained by MDOT not the city so they can take this proposal and shove it up their sorry asses. I'm not talking that way to you of course but Flint city officials rather because they never have a good plan to improve anything in the city of Flint.
I agree, but it's still no excuse for such stupidity.
I know it. Flint city officials are as dumb as it gets. There has been a spike in crime in Flint and shootings at gas stations at night time so a city official proposes closing all the gas stations down at 9pm in order to stop it.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Terry Shea on October 25, 2020, 12:35:32 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:20 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 24, 2020, 11:28:57 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2020, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.

That's putting it mildly.  MDOT seems to absolutely hate Interstates, or at least interstate numbers!
I don't think they hate interstates I think that they have announced that they are done building interstates though. So even I-73 which was the last proposed interstate in Michigan will never even enter the state probably not even Ohio either.
They refused to put an interstate number on M-6 and removed signage on I-296 saying it was too confusing having X-96's.  It's insulting.  They might just as well say people in West Michigan are stupid.

How'd it work out in the San Francisco Bay Area when they decided they wanted a bunch of 3D Interstates?  Nobody in Michigan in all the years I lived there was pining for State Trunklines to become Interstates.  What was confusing was when you had garage line I-696 Business. 

Flint1979

It's not that they refused to put an Interstate on M-6 it's that they didn't get it approved to be an Interstate. It's the sign that MDOT doesn't bother worrying about if a freeway is an Interstate or not.

Just because a highway is a freeway doesn't mean that it needs to be an Interstate and in Michigan there are several freeway alignments that are not Interstate's, such as US-10, US-127, US-131, M-6, M-39, M-10, M-8, parts of M-5, M-14 and so on. Michigan has 13 Interstate highways totaling 1,239 miles, in comparison North Carolina has 19 Interstate highways totaling 1,296 miles (just 57 more miles than Michigan with 6 more Interstate's).



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