US 31/I-465 around Indianapolis

[Revive 755]

I have wondered the same thing myself. It if was such a good idea then why hasn't any other city that has a beltway done it? Columbus has a beltway so does Cincinnati, St Louis, Kansas City, Atlanta ect. none of them did it.[/quote]

For St. Louis, they did kind of do it with US 50, which used to go through Downtown St. Louis, but is now mostly cosigned with interstates excluding a short section in Missouri.  For US 40 however, on the Missouri side it was on a freeway by itself for many years prior to that freeway getting an interstate number.  With the state routes, except for IL 3, there are/were not any that intersected the beltway twice.  Plus, the St. Louis area is in two different states, so any reroute requires more coordination.

I was going to say Kansas City was more likely to cosign the US routes with the interstate parallel to them, but then I see large sections of US 24, US 69, and US 169 that still have non-freeway sections.

For cities where the rerouting of state and US highways to the bypass route does seem to have happened:

* Topeka, Kansas - all but US 24 spend some time on the I-70/I-470 loop
* Sioux City, Iowa?  Only US 77 still goes into town, but it appears US 20 and US 75 have partially signed business routes
* Muscatine, Iowa?   Hardly any routes through town, with IA 92 and IA 22 now multiplexing with US 61 and IA 38

[dvferyance]

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!

I agree 100% on that one. I have made this point before you can still have the road be locally maintained and still signed as a state or US highway just to make the route more logical and not to confuse drivers. Virginia does this it works for them no reason why Indiana couldn't do it.

[tdindy88]

Virginia also has a large state highway system with many more miles than Indiana. And if Hoosiers see a state highway sign along a street, regardless of who officially maintains it, they will think that INDOT is responsible. If there's a highway sign, they will expect a yellow INDOT snowplow to go down the road and not that of the local municipality. Most of these people don't care about our technical definitions for highways or what INDOT officially has on the books. What's needed in these cities that lack a through state highway is an official route into town of some sort with way finding signs to direct motorists to the city center and back out. I experienced that in Lafayette trying to get back from downtown toward the new SR 25 expressway, a few signs saying "TO" SR 25 wouldn't be a bad idea. 

[Life in Paradise]

Wouldn't be a bad idea.  In Vincennes, IN, you have several "To IN 61" signs from Highway 41, going south along the old route, then directing you to take a left, then another left (approx 3-5 miles) until you pick up highway 61, which suddenly springs up as you go on the overpass over Highway 41, heading SE out of Vincennes.  Although you feel like you are in a "Where's Waldo" picture, at least you have something to guide you.

[dvferyance]

Virginia also has a large state highway system with many more miles than Indiana. And if Hoosiers see a state highway sign along a street, regardless of who officially maintains it, they will think that INDOT is responsible. If there's a highway sign, they will expect a yellow INDOT snowplow to go down the road and not that of the local municipality. Most of these people don't care about our technical definitions for highways or what INDOT officially has on the books. What's needed in these cities that lack a through state highway is an official route into town of some sort with way finding signs to direct motorists to the city center and back out. I experienced that in Lafayette trying to get back from downtown toward the new SR 25 expressway, a few signs saying "TO" SR 25 wouldn't be a bad idea.

As long as our roads get plowed that's all that matters to me. I don't even pay attention to what the truck says on the side. Who cares who does it as long as it gets done that's good enough for me.

[Captain Jack]

i think i remember seeing somewhere that they want to get rid of diamond and morgan ave. idk what that means for routings, maybe 66 will go down university pkwy to the lloyd and be cosigned to 69 where they'll split off.  isn't 41 known as dixie bee road?

I am not normally in favor of these types of re-routings, but in the case of SR 62 and 66, this actually makes sense. At least the Lloyd would be consistent across Evansville. Having a through expressway suddenly switch numbers in the middle of a city seems silly, although most people don't even realize it.

If INDOT really wanted to fix something, they should correct their decades long mistake of the routings of 62 and 66 west of Evansville. That one has never made a bit of sense. On the east side of Mt. Vernon, there is a mileage sign for Evansville and BOONVILLE. While it is obviously done because SR 62 goes to Boonville, it seems highly illogical. It is at the beginning of a divided highway that runs straight for nearly 50 miles to Hatfield, basically along the Ohio River.  I am certain that over 90% of the area residents would tell you Newburgh and Mt. Vernon are on the same highway, not Newburgh and New Harmony.

[SSR_317]

Here is a question: Was it the right decision to remove all state and US highways from going through Indianapolis and routing them all on the 465 beltway, although there are too many to signpost?

Since nobody ever mentioned it on this thread, INDOT does not use trailblazer signs for the U.S. and state routes multiplexed along I-465 (and I-865) in the Indy metro area. Instead, along the entry ramps from such routes they have a BGS stating "FOR {route shield} {cardinal direction} FOLLOW {I-465 (or I-865)} TO EXIT xxx". I-74 is fully signed all along its multiplex, and I-69 will be once that route's Section 6 from Martinsville to I-465 (South Leg) is completed around 2024-2026 or so.

For trivia buffs, the section of I-465 on the SE side of Indy, between Exits 47 (US 52/Brookville Rd) and 49 (I-74/US 421/Southeastern Ave connector) has 8 concurrent routes: I-465, US 31, US 36, US 40, US 52, US 421, SR 37, & SR 67. And once I-69 is signed, there will be 9 routes sharing this section of I-465 mainline. Note that US 52 was once routed along the South & West Legs of I-465, but once the aforementioned Brookville Rd interchange was rebuilt to allow all movements, that was changed to the present routing along the East & North Legs to I-865.

[NWI_Irish96]

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!

If you're using GPS and are on 31 one one side of Indy and your destination is on or near 31 on the other side of Indy, the GPS is going to route you around on 465 regardless of how 31 is routed because it's faster. 

[hotdogPi]

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!

If you're using GPS and are on 31 one one side of Indy and your destination is on or near 31 on the other side of Indy, the GPS is going to route you around on 465 regardless of how 31 is routed because it's faster.

For longer trips, yes. However, most trips 5 miles or shorter (including those going to/from downtown) would not send you on I-465. It would either send you on I-65 or on US 31, and keeping the designation US 31 would be useful in the latter case. Same with US 40.

[NWI_Irish96]

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!

If you're using GPS and are on 31 one one side of Indy and your destination is on or near 31 on the other side of Indy, the GPS is going to route you around on 465 regardless of how 31 is routed because it's faster.

For longer trips, yes. However, most trips 5 miles or shorter (including those going to/from downtown) would not send you on I-465. It would either send you on I-65 or on US 31, and keeping the designation US 31 would be useful in the latter case. Same with US 40.

I can see the case for keeping US 31 on North Meridian between I-65 and I-465 due to the lack of interstate alternative, but there's really no good reason to keep 31 south of I-65 nor any of US 40 since I-65 and I-70 are so close by.

[Life in Paradise]

I think it simply comes down to the State of Indiana is separating itself from the localities where they can.  They are returning the roads to the cities and therefore won't have to fund the maintenance of them, lessening their cost, and just making the municipalities have to spend money or increase taxes (if they can).  In poor Indianapolis' case, they would probably have to assess every living, breathing human (housed or homeless) $1,000 to get their roads up to snuff.  For some $1,000 may not mean as much, but to a lot of us, that is quite a few burgers.

[2trailertrucker]

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!

If you're using GPS and are on 31 one one side of Indy and your destination is on or near 31 on the other side of Indy, the GPS is going to route you around on 465 regardless of how 31 is routed because it's faster.

For longer trips, yes. However, most trips 5 miles or shorter (including those going to/from downtown) would not send you on I-465. It would either send you on I-65 or on US 31, and keeping the designation US 31 would be useful in the latter case. Same with US 40.

I can see the case for keeping US 31 on North Meridian between I-65 and I-465 due to the lack of interstate alternative, but there's really no good reason to keep 31 south of I-65 nor any of US 40 since I-65 and I-70 are so close by.

The problem with this scenario is the semi-truck traffic that would use on this route. Imagine big trucks going by the Governor's Mansion and other gated communities? 

[silverback1065]

they were doing it up until 2002, when INDOT took 31 off meridian street.  Indy has an infrastructure crisis at the moment, nearly all the roads here are trash, potholes everywhere, hundreds of damaged vehicles.  Decades of ignoring the problem and unigov have finally come to roost. 

[NWI_Irish96]

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!

If you're using GPS and are on 31 one one side of Indy and your destination is on or near 31 on the other side of Indy, the GPS is going to route you around on 465 regardless of how 31 is routed because it's faster.

For longer trips, yes. However, most trips 5 miles or shorter (including those going to/from downtown) would not send you on I-465. It would either send you on I-65 or on US 31, and keeping the designation US 31 would be useful in the latter case. Same with US 40.

I can see the case for keeping US 31 on North Meridian between I-65 and I-465 due to the lack of interstate alternative, but there's really no good reason to keep 31 south of I-65 nor any of US 40 since I-65 and I-70 are so close by.

The problem with this scenario is the semi-truck traffic that would use on this route. Imagine big trucks going by the Governor's Mansion and other gated communities? 

How much traffic, truck or otherwise, is going to change their route due to the change in the routing of a highway?  Seems to me that most people are going to take the fastest route regardless of how it is or isn't numbered.

[SSR_317]

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!

If you're using GPS and are on 31 one one side of Indy and your destination is on or near 31 on the other side of Indy, the GPS is going to route you around on 465 regardless of how 31 is routed because it's faster.

For longer trips, yes. However, most trips 5 miles or shorter (including those going to/from downtown) would not send you on I-465. It would either send you on I-65 or on US 31, and keeping the designation US 31 would be useful in the latter case. Same with US 40.

I can see the case for keeping US 31 on North Meridian between I-65 and I-465 due to the lack of interstate alternative, but there's really no good reason to keep 31 south of I-65 nor any of US 40 since I-65 and I-70 are so close by.

The problem with this scenario is the semi-truck traffic that would use on this route. Imagine big trucks going by the Governor's Mansion and other gated communities? 

How much traffic, truck or otherwise, is going to change their route due to the change in the routing of a highway?  Seems to me that most people are going to take the fastest route regardless of how it is or isn't numbered.

Exactly. Just look at the ridiculous routing of US 24 in Allen County. After I-469 was built, they had US 24 using the east & south legs to I-69 (which made SENSE), but then back NORTH to Upper Huntington Rd (now Jefferson Blvd) then back south to Huntington. Crazy! Those in the know just stayed on Lafayette Center Rd (which is what clockwise I-469 becomes west of I-69) until it runs into US 24 in Huntington County about 5 miles from the end of the freeway. Of course, after they built the GM Truck plant, that became a tad congested at certain times, but still better than going 12 or so miles out of one's way! Now INDOT has re-routed US 24 to use the NORTH leg of I-469 and then south on I-69, but that routing makes little sense either (and runs into FAR more congestion along the way). They just should have just improved Lafayette Center Rd years before they did and used it along with the original I-469 path as the official routing for US 24.

[Revive 755]

How much traffic, truck or otherwise, is going to change their route due to the change in the routing of a highway?  Seems to me that most people are going to take the fastest route regardless of how it is or isn't numbered.

Depends how familiar they are with the area.  I think there are usually fewer truck restrictions on state and US routes, and if there are such restrictions they are usually signed better than they would be on a local roadway.

[tdindy88]

Exactly. Just look at the ridiculous routing of US 24 in Allen County. After I-469 was built, they had US 24 using the east & south legs to I-69 (which made SENSE), but then back NORTH to Upper Huntington Rd (now Jefferson Blvd) then back south to Huntington. Crazy! Those in the know just stayed on Lafayette Center Rd (which is what clockwise I-469 becomes west of I-69) until it runs into US 24 in Huntington County about 5 miles from the end of the freeway. Of course, after they built the GM Truck plant, that became a tad congested at certain times, but still better than going 12 or so miles out of one's way! Now INDOT has re-routed US 24 to use the NORTH leg of I-469 and then south on I-69, but that routing makes little sense either (and runs into FAR more congestion along the way). They just should have just improved Lafayette Center Rd years before they did and used it along with the original I-469 path as the official routing for US 24.

This is the same agency that believes that Teal Road qualifies as part of the bypass around Lafayette (for state routes,) instead of the roadway that actually looks like, and once was, the actual bypass.

[silverback1065]

Exactly. Just look at the ridiculous routing of US 24 in Allen County. After I-469 was built, they had US 24 using the east & south legs to I-69 (which made SENSE), but then back NORTH to Upper Huntington Rd (now Jefferson Blvd) then back south to Huntington. Crazy! Those in the know just stayed on Lafayette Center Rd (which is what clockwise I-469 becomes west of I-69) until it runs into US 24 in Huntington County about 5 miles from the end of the freeway. Of course, after they built the GM Truck plant, that became a tad congested at certain times, but still better than going 12 or so miles out of one's way! Now INDOT has re-routed US 24 to use the NORTH leg of I-469 and then south on I-69, but that routing makes little sense either (and runs into FAR more congestion along the way). They just should have just improved Lafayette Center Rd years before they did and used it along with the original I-469 path as the official routing for US 24.

This is the same agency that believes that Teal Road qualifies as part of the bypass around Lafayette (for state routes,) instead of the roadway that actually looks like, and once was, the actual bypass.

it was going to be worse, at one time teal was going to be 52, 25, and 26! but they realized that was dumb, so they went to the gapped filled nonsense they have now.  they'd love to have a gap in 52, but since it's a us highway, they can't do that.

[silverback1065]

also sagamore parkway's reconstruction looks like hot garbage in lafayette, just an ugly mess of a road! 

[PurdueBill]

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!

If you're using GPS and are on 31 one one side of Indy and your destination is on or near 31 on the other side of Indy, the GPS is going to route you around on 465 regardless of how 31 is routed because it's faster.

For longer trips, yes. However, most trips 5 miles or shorter (including those going to/from downtown) would not send you on I-465. It would either send you on I-65 or on US 31, and keeping the designation US 31 would be useful in the latter case. Same with US 40.

I can see the case for keeping US 31 on North Meridian between I-65 and I-465 due to the lack of interstate alternative, but there's really no good reason to keep 31 south of I-65 nor any of US 40 since I-65 and I-70 are so close by.

The problem with this scenario is the semi-truck traffic that would use on this route. Imagine big trucks going by the Governor's Mansion and other gated communities? 

How much traffic, truck or otherwise, is going to change their route due to the change in the routing of a highway?  Seems to me that most people are going to take the fastest route regardless of how it is or isn't numbered.

Exactly. Just look at the ridiculous routing of US 24 in Allen County. After I-469 was built, they had US 24 using the east & south legs to I-69 (which made SENSE), but then back NORTH to Upper Huntington Rd (now Jefferson Blvd) then back south to Huntington. Crazy! Those in the know just stayed on Lafayette Center Rd (which is what clockwise I-469 becomes west of I-69) until it runs into US 24 in Huntington County about 5 miles from the end of the freeway. Of course, after they built the GM Truck plant, that became a tad congested at certain times, but still better than going 12 or so miles out of one's way! Now INDOT has re-routed US 24 to use the NORTH leg of I-469 and then south on I-69, but that routing makes little sense either (and runs into FAR more congestion along the way). They just should have just improved Lafayette Center Rd years before they did and used it along with the original I-469 path as the official routing for US 24.

Common sense would have been for INDOT to take over Lafayette Center Road as the new routing of 24 once the widening and railroad overpass was done, but common sense didn't prevail.  It is silly for 24 to go around the north side and down 69 through the middle of town if the idea is to bypass the middle of town.  Coming in on 30 from Ohio frequently headed for 25 at Logansport, it is a no-brainer to go south on 469 and then over Lafayette Center.  Even before the widening, INDOT's own signs on 24 eastbound at Roanoke said to turn onto 900/Laf Ctr. to go to FWA Airport, which interestingly enough back before 24 was rerouted, put you back onto 24 before getting to the airport!  They even knew themselves that it was sensible to go that way if you were headed anywhere that direction.

Allen and Huntington Counties probably wouldn't want the mileage of existing 24 between Roanoke and I-69, so we're probably stuck with it as is, but it is silly.  The new 900/Lafayette Center road with a 55 speed limit and 4-5 lanes and several miles less distance is silly to not post as part of 24.

[silverback1065]

wasn't the lafayette center road project done by indot too?  they should route 24 that way, and slap a 9 on the old alignment (SR 924) highways that start with a 9 mean that indot doesn't care about them, i.e. they are desperate to give it to the county or city they go through.

[SSR_317]

wasn't the lafayette center road project done by indot too?  they should route 24 that way, and slap a 9 on the old alignment (SR 924) highways that start with a 9 mean that indot doesn't care about them, i.e. they are desperate to give it to the county or city they go through.

I believe it was an INDOT project. But they just rerouted US 24 along the northern leg of I-469 a few years ago, so restoring it back to the original routing along the east & south legs of that partial beltway, then straight ahead on Lafayette Center Rd, is probably NOT gonna happen as they'd likely balk at spending money on re-signing the route yet again.

[mrsman]

IMO, it's a shame that control cities are not used at all on I465 (with the exception of the portion multiplexed with I-74).  If they are directing all this thru traffic onto it, they should better direct them where to go.  The control cities used should follow the method of other midwestern beltways and use the controls of the 2dis that it intersects with (and not local suburbs).  Chicago, Dayton, Louisville, and St Louis will all be good controls.  Chicago should be on as many signs as possible to direct traffic from the south side of I-65 clockwise, and from the east side of I-70 counter clockwise.

[tdindy88]

That could be interesting once I-69 gets routed onto I-465. Could there be signs with Peoria/Evansville and Cincinnati/Fort Wayne on them? And then you thrown Chicago, Louisville, St. Louis and Dayton on them? At least there are travel time signs with those four control cities that provide possible routes and times along them to guide traffic, it's better than a lot of places have.

Now if there were auxiliary signs approaching the main interstate interchanges that could be something. Approaching each exit there would be two signs with control cities along I-65. If need be these can be included at other exits with minor roadways. 

I-65 (Southside):  Fort Wayne/Dayton/Cincinnati for I-465 east and Chicago/Peoria/St. Louis for I-465 west
I-65 at I-865 (NW Side): Fort Wayne/Dayton/Cincinnati for I-865 east to I-465
I-65 at I-465 (NW Side): Peoria/St. Louis/Louisville for I-465 south

I-70 (Westside): Louisville/Cincinnati/Dayton for I-465 south and Peoria/Chicago/Fort Wayne for I-465 north
I-70 (Eastside): Cincinnati/Louisville/St. Louis for I-465 south and Fort Wayne and Chicago for I-465 north (hard to say where Peoria goes)

I-74 (Westside): Chicago/Fort Wayne for I-465 north and St. Louis/Louisville/Cincinnati for I-465 south (hard to say where Dayton goes)
I-74 (Eastside): Dayton/Fort Wayne/Chicago for I-465 north and Louisville/St. Louis/Peoria for I-465 south

I-69 (northside): Chicago/Peoria/St. Louis for I-465 west and Dayton/Cincinnati/Louisville for I-465 south

Of course this will all be messed up when I-69 and presumably Evansville gets added to the mix. Three controls on one sign is already pushing INDOT's limit.

[Rushmeister]

If they are directing all this thru traffic onto it,...

I'm not sure where the idea originated that "someone" is trying to reroute all through traffic away from the inner city.  If it's because of the "Travel Time to ABC via X or Y" information signs, I think those are only to assist motorists in choosing what route is best for them, based on current traffic conditions -- nothing else.

I drive on Indianapolis freeways every day.  I don't feel like "they" are trying to get me to use I-465 instead of I-65 or I-70 through downtown.