What is "The South?"

[J N Winkler]

If you are going by whole states rather than regions thereof

I don't.

I do.  I go by whole states specifically to avoid a discussion-by-proxy as to how much fragmentation is permissible in characterizing a given unit of land as belonging to a given region, whether that is defined in terms of climate, culture, dialect group, or other variables.  It takes enough time to work just at county level that it seems to me more productive to have the discussion among professional geographers, who are disposed by training to think in terms of well-defined categories.

This is also why I have been talking about the South in terms of whole states.  It isn't that I don't acknowledge states like Oklahoma and Texas have regions that don't feel Southern; I just don't want to go there in terms of sub-state areas.

[hbelkins]

Hell, if someone said parts of Oklahoma were Midwestern, I'd at least hear their argument for it. Kay County doesn't look too different from Illinois.

In other words, Kay County is flat.

[US 89]

This is also why I have been talking about the South in terms of whole states.  It isn't that I don't acknowledge states like Oklahoma and Texas have regions that don't feel Southern; I just don't want to go there in terms of sub-state areas.

And my issue with that characterization is that the Southern-feeling parts of those states are the exception and not the norm.

[Dirt Roads]

This is also why I have been talking about the South in terms of whole states. 

And for that reason, you would not include West Virginia in "The South".  It is fair to say that Morgantown, home of West Virginia University and daggone close to Pennsylvania, still has a Southern feel (and to some extent, so does Wheeling).  You can't say that about Weirton and much of the Northern Panhandle, and the Metro influence on much of Jefferson County in the Eastern Panhandle rings out the same way.  For that matter, Clarksburg doesn't feel like it belongs to "The South", in part because of its strong Italian heritage.  However, the two panhandles (and places like Clarksburg) are staunchly "Proud to be West Virginians", no matter how different they may be from "The South".

Which all bears to reason.  The rest of the nation has already deemed West Virginia to be our own separate region, distinct from all others.  Buckwild, y'all!

[D-Dey65]

In the south, you can get barbecue grilles that are so big, they need license plates.

In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be (Reminder; Wainscott, New York's LIRR station had Jim Crow bathrooms, though they weren't supposed to).

In the south, the gas station signs are much bigger (not just taller).

[kphoger]

In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be

So are you in the camp that says DC is in the South?  Because the Pentagon has twice as many bathrooms as it needs for precisely that reason.

[Rothman]

This is also why I have been talking about the South in terms of whole states. 

And for that reason, you would not include West Virginia in "The South".  It is fair to say that Morgantown, home of West Virginia University and daggone close to Pennsylvania, still has a Southern feel (and to some extent, so does Wheeling).  You can't say that about Weirton and much of the Northern Panhandle, and the Metro influence on much of Jefferson County in the Eastern Panhandle rings out the same way.  For that matter, Clarksburg doesn't feel like it belongs to "The South", in part because of its strong Italian heritage.  However, the two panhandles (and places like Clarksburg) are staunchly "Proud to be West Virginians", no matter how different they may be from "The South".

Which all bears to reason.  The rest of the nation has already deemed West Virginia to be our own separate region, distinct from all others.  Buckwild, y'all!

To be fair, Wheeling feels like its own corner of the universe to me.  Weird pizza, rust belt with coal country feel, not Pittsburgh, not Charleston...

[Roadgeekteen]

In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be

So are you in the camp that says DC is in the South?  Because the Pentagon has twice as many bathrooms as it needs for precisely that reason.

The Pentagon actually isn't in DC.

[kphoger]

In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be

So are you in the camp that says DC is in the South?  Because the Pentagon has twice as many bathrooms as it needs for precisely that reason.

The Pentagon actually isn't in DC.

Touché!

[Dirt Roads]

To be fair, Wheeling feels like its own corner of the universe to me.  Weird pizza, rust belt with coal country feel, not Pittsburgh, not Charleston...

And the Wheeling Jamboree.  Which gives us a new dimension to the South:

• National Barn Dance (Chicago) - 1924
• Grand Ole Opry (Nashville)- 1925
• Rex Cole's Mountaineers (New York City) - 1933
• Wheeling Jamboree - 1933
• Midwestern Hayride (Cincinnati) - 1935
• Renfro Valley Barn Dance (Cincinnati, later Mt. Vernon KY) - 1937
• Gene Autry's Melody Ranch (Hollywood) - 1940
• Tennessee Barn Dance (Knoxville) - 1942
• Renfro Valley Gathering (Renfro Valley KY) - 1943
• The Roy Rogers Show (Chicago) - 1945
• Old Dominion Barn Dance (Richmond) - 1946
• Midnight Jamboree (Nashville) - 1947
• Big D Jamboree (Dallas) - 1947
• The Western Express (Fort Worth) - 1947
• Hayloft Hoedown (Philadelphia) - 1948
• Louisiana Hayride (Shreveport) - 1948
• Hayloft Hoedown (Louisville) - 1951
• Town Hall Party (Pasadena) - 1951
• Ozark Jubillee (Springfield) - 1955
• Arkansas Traveler (Detroit) - 1977
• Mountain Stage (Charleston WV) - 1983
• Boston Bluegrass Union - 1988
• Pinecone Radio Show (Raleigh) - 1989
• Into the Blue (Pendleton OR) - 1992

[jgb191]

My definition of "South" is regardless of culture or history.....I say geography solely determines "North" from "South" just as those two words are defined in the dictionary.

If you live closer to Canada than Mexico/Gulf coast, then you're not South: that rules out Delaware, Maryland, and both of the Virginias.  If you expect to see snowfall at least every other year then you're not South: that eliminates all other "Southern" states mentioned in this thread including the Texas panhandle.  Anyplace literally south of Interstate 10 I certainly consider as South (maybe upto Interstate 20 but even that's pushing it very much).

[JayhawkCO]

My definition of "South" is regardless of culture or history.....I say geography solely determines "North" from "South" just as those two words are defined in the dictionary.

If you live closer to Canada than Mexico/Gulf coast, then you're not South: that rules out Delaware, Maryland, and both of the Virginias.  If you expect to see snowfall at least every other year then you're not South: that eliminates all other "Southern" states mentioned in this thread including the Texas panhandle.  Anyplace literally south of Interstate 10 I certainly consider as South (maybe upto Interstate 20 but even that's pushing it very much).

I mean, Richmond was the capital of the South. Huntsville, Alabama gets 2.3 inches of snow a year, so Alabama isn't the South? And Miami sure as hell ain't the South.

[jgb191]

^ I mean I define the Southern United States in a purely geographical sense and completely disregarding history/culture.  I consider places like San Diego CA, Yuma AZ, New Orleans LA, Ft. Myers FL, Mobile AL as Southern.


And if Miami isn't considered South (certainly not North), then I don't what people would call it; sure as hell can't go much farther south than Miami.

[SEWIGuy]

^ I mean I define the Southern United States in a purely geographical sense and completely disregarding history/culture. 

Of course you can feel free to do so. But just know that you will get a lot of strange looks when you claim that San Diego is in "the south." Because "the south" isn't just about geography.

[skluth]

^ I mean I define the Southern United States in a purely geographical sense and completely disregarding history/culture. 

Of course you can feel free to do so. But just know that you will get a lot of strange looks when you claim that San Diego is in "the south." Because "the south" isn't just about geography.

"South" is a geographic cardinal direction like north, east, and west. "The South" is a state of mind.

[JayhawkCO]

Exactly. There's a differentiation between south and South. Capital S means the region. That's what we're talking about here. Sure, Antarctica is south. It certainly is not the South.

[kphoger]

"It's like America, but South."

[keithvh]

Late to the topic, but there are so many subdivisions of "The South."  I think that ANY of the below can be classified as "The South", but there are some pretty huge differences between some of these subdivisions.

Attempting to define those subdivisions in very broad strokes:

(1) South Appalachia - most of Southern West Virginia, Virginia west of the Shenandoah Valley, Kentucky south of I-64 and east of I-75, eastern Tennessee, western NC, and various counties in both north Alabama and north Georgia.  Even some counties into north Mississippi too.  Portions of WV and VA north of I-64 and west of the Piedmont are Central Appalachia versus South Appalachia.

(2) The Southern Piedmont - the portion of the Piedmont from I-64 south.  Anything north of that is more mid-Atlantic.  The "Piedmont South" covers large chunks of Central VA, central NC, upstate SC, and various counties in AL & GA that are south of "the Appalachian South."

(3) The Atlantic Coastal Plain South - portions of Virginia, NC and SC that are east of the Piedmont and south of I-64.  The VA & MD portions of the DelMarva Peninsula belong here too.  Arguably you could include a couple Delaware counties here too.  Also include GA counties that border the Savannah River, and immediate coastal areas on the entire I-95 corridor from Savannah to Palm Coast.

(4) The Deep South - Large chunks of central and southern GA (that don't fall into any of the above), the FL Panhandle except the immediate Gulf Coast, any portions of northeast FL that aren't within 15 miles of the Atlantic Ocean and are north of a Cedar Key to Palm Coast line, large chunks of central and southern AL (but not Mobile), large chunks of central and southern MS (but again, not the Gulf Coast), and finally a kind of oddball east-west "narrow tongue" of land that follows the Arkansas River upstream to Little Rock, then follows US-70 from there all the way into capturing a few counties in SE Oklahoma.

(5) The Mid-South - extreme southern Illinois, extreme western KY, the flat portions of SE Missouri (e.g., generally east and south of Poplar Bluff), west Tennessee, NE Arkansas east of Crowley's Ridge, the Memphis Metro (which includes a few counties in MS).

(6) The Mississippi Delta - MS counties that are flat and between the Mississippi & Yazoo Rivers, far eastern counties in Arkansas that are also south of Memphis, extreme NE Louisiana.

(7) The Piney Woods - far east Texas, large chunks of central and southern Arkansas (generally south of an Arkansas River to Little Rock to DeQueen line), most of Louisiana that is north of 31 degrees Latitude (31 N also makes up a portion of the LA/MS border).

(8) The Ozarks/Ouachitas - most of Arkansas that is west of a Poplar Bluff-Jonesboro-Pine Bluff line (excluding the Deep South "tongue" mentioned above).  Large chunks of southern into central Missouri.  Several NE and East-Central OK counties as well.

(9) Acadiana - Louisiana counties closest to the Gulf Coast with the heavy Cajun influence.

(10) Redneck Riveria - Gulf coast from just east of New Orleans all the way to the FL Big Bend.  Anything more than 15 miles of the Gulf Coast doesn't qualify here.

(11) Cumberlands/Pennyriles - huge swaths of central Tennessee and central Kentucky.  Probably the most "hard to precisely describe" of these 14 regions but you know it when you see it.  I'd argue this doesn't extend quite up to Louisville.

(12) Bluegrass Region - portion of Kentucky centered around Lexington with rolling hills and hundreds of horse farms. 

(13) Far southern Plains - the "classical" tornado alley portions of Oklahoma and Texas - that are east of 100 degrees longitude and where cattle farming/ranching isn't a huge part of the local economy.

(14) Texas Gulf Coast - Still the south, but generally anything within 50 miles of the Gulf Coast, and not within a Pine forest, all the way from the TX/LA border on down south to Corpus Christi.

--------------

Major cities that fall into each region:

(1) Pikeville KY, Huntington WV, Charleston WV, Roanoke VA, Asheville NC, Knoxville TN, Chattanooga TN, Huntsville AL, arguably Tupelo MS.

(2) Charlottesville VA, Lynchburg VA, Winston-Salem NC, Charlotte NC, Greenville SC, Atlanta GA (on the border: the deep South isn't far away at all from Atlanta's 285 Loop Southern suburbs), Birmingham AL

(3) Salisbury MD, Richmond VA, Norfolk VA, Raleigh-Durham NC, Wilmington NC, Charleston SC, Columbia SC, Augusta GA, Savannah GA, Jacksonville FL, Saint Augustine FL

(4) Macon GA, Albany GA, Columbus GA, Valdosta GA, Gainesville FL, Tallahassee FL, Montgomery AL, Jackson MS, Hattiesburg MS, Pine Bluff, AR, Little Rock AR, Idabel OK

(5) Cairo IL, Paducah KY, Cape Girardeau MO, Dyersburg TN, Jackson TN, Memphis TN, Jonesboro AR

(6) Greenville MS, Vicksburg MS, Helena-West Helena, AR

(7) El Dorado AR, Shreveport LA, Monroe LA, Alexandria LA, Texarkana LA-TX, Lufkin TX.

(8) Jefferson City MO (on the border), Springfield MO, Branson MO, Fayetteville AR, Fort Smith AR, Tahlequah OK (also on the border)

(9) New Orleans LA, Lafayette LA, Lake Charles LA, Baton Rouge LA

(10) Biloxi/Gulfport MS, Mobile AL, Pensacola FL, Panama City FL

(11) Nashville TN, Bowling Green KY

(12) Lexington KY, Louisville KY, Cincinnati suburbs south of the 275 loop.

(13) Dallas TX, (arguably Fort Worth isn't in this subregion, however), OKC, Lawton OK, Tulsa OK

(14) Houston, Beaumont, Victoria, Corpus Christi

[US 89]

Your subregions 13 and 14 are less like the others than anything on this list. Ocala and Gainesville FL, which are outside your dividing line, are way more Southern than Oklahoma City or Dallas or even Houston.

I don’t get why so many people are trying to lump Texas and Oklahoma in with the South. Really, they’re their own beast entirely, but spend any time in the cities in those states and you’ll notice most of them share more affinities with the Midwest.

[keithvh]

Your subregions 13 and 14 are less like the others than anything on this list. Ocala and Gainesville FL, which are outside your dividing line, are way more Southern than Oklahoma City or Dallas or even Houston.

I don't get why so many people are trying to lump Texas and Oklahoma in with the South. Really, they're their own beast entirely, but spend any time in the cities in those states and you'll notice most of them share more affinities with the Midwest.

That's absolutely fair on subregions 13 & 14.  I initially excluded them.

I tried to draw a Florida line such that Ocala is just barely north of it - looking again Ocala is south of a Cedar Key to Palm Coast line (Gainesville is definitely north of that line).

One thing for sure --- The Villages is snowbird territory.  Ocala is the South, but the South ends very near to its southern border.

[Dirt Roads]

Ocala and Gainesville FL, which are outside your dividing line, are way more Southern than Oklahoma City or Dallas or even Houston.

I tried to draw a Florida line such that Ocala is just barely north of it - looking again Ocala is south of a Cedar Key to Palm Coast line (Gainesville is definitely north of that line).

One thing for sure --- The Villages is snowbird territory.  Ocala is the South, but the South ends very near to its southern border.

In addition to my former colleague who grew up near Wildwood, I have cousins that are from rural Pasco County and grew up along the Withlacoochee River.  These were all Southerners, and the area they lived in was certainly part of The South until others (not just folks from the Northeast) starting constructing new towns.  I'm amazed how many folks in Central Florida are from Michigan and West Virginia (my cousins don't count, unless you go back far enough).

[keithvh]

In addition to my former colleague who grew up near Wildwood, I have cousins that are from rural Pasco County and grew up along the Withlacoochee River.  These were all Southerners, and the area they lived in was certainly part of The South until others (not just folks from the Northeast) starting constructing new towns.  I'm amazed how many folks in Central Florida are from Michigan and West Virginia (my cousins don't count, unless you go back far enough).

I'm not sure what the equivalent word to "gentrified" would be --- but yep, a large chunk of formerly very Southern Central Florida has been "taken over." 

There are also those inland South Florida counties like Hardee, DeSoto, Highlands, Glades, Hendry, Okeechobee.  They're "The South" too.  Arguably their own sub-region: it feels more 3rd World-esque there than anywhere else in "The South", with the stark poverty so close to the lavish wealth just nearby in Naples, Palm Beach, Miami, et cetera.

[D-Dey65]

In the south, you can tell where the "Whites Only" and "Non-Whites Only" facilities used to be

So are you in the camp that says DC is in the South?  Because the Pentagon has twice as many bathrooms as it needs for precisely that reason.

I did mention that LIRR station that had Jim Crow bathrooms. The Hamptons are nowhere near the south.

[skluth]

In addition to my former colleague who grew up near Wildwood, I have cousins that are from rural Pasco County and grew up along the Withlacoochee River.  These were all Southerners, and the area they lived in was certainly part of The South until others (not just folks from the Northeast) starting constructing new towns.  I'm amazed how many folks in Central Florida are from Michigan and West Virginia (my cousins don't count, unless you go back far enough).

I'm not sure what the equivalent word to "gentrified" would be --- but yep, a large chunk of formerly very Southern Central Florida has been "taken over." 

There are also those inland South Florida counties like Hardee, DeSoto, Highlands, Glades, Hendry, Okeechobee.  They're "The South" too.  Arguably their own sub-region: it feels more 3rd World-esque there than anywhere else in "The South", with the stark poverty so close to the lavish wealth just nearby in Naples, Palm Beach, Miami, et cetera.

I think that's another reason some lump South Florida into an extended Caribbean region rather than the US. Poor people, often of African ancestry, adjacent to (usually gated) mansions or upper classes neighborhoods is the norm for much of the Caribbean.

[Osthagen]

I live in the UK and this debate about what really comprises The South reminds me of how ferociously debated definitions of The North of England are. Traditionally, it's defined as the following traditional (pre-1974) counties: Northumberland, Cumberland, Westmorland, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cheshire.
However, some settlements in neighbouring counties to the south like Derbyshire, Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire have similarities with their northern neighbours, even forming continuous urban areas with them.
Conversely, some in the most northerly counties of England exclude more southerly areas like Cheshire and most of Lancashire and Yorkshire from their personal definitions of the north.

I was born in Georgia, which I'd safely describe as Deep South.
For me, The South, or Dixie, comprises the following states (in bold are states I would firmly consider Deep South):

Alabama
Arkansas
Florida (North)
Florida (South)
Georgia
Kentucky
Louisiana
Mississippi
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
Virginia
West Virginia

Non-South states of which at least part possesses southern characteristics include (kind of a buffer-zone):

Delaware
Illinois (South)
Indiana
Maryland
Missouri