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[msnyder14]

Here is a link to the Inside Indiana Business article previously referenced about the French Lick Mid-States Alternative Route O - https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/41708707/public-hearings-for-midstates-corridor-project?  An independent impact study for Route O (formerly Route 3F) has been conducted by the Indiana University Public Policy Institute and GINOVUS - it is referenced in the IIB coverage and can be downloaded at http://www.frenchlickparkwaycoalition.com/

[3467]

Illinois was considering 4 laning 50 from Olney to Indiana and dropped it mysteriously in 2017. However a bypass of Lebanon is fully funded. Illinois does have the ROW for all but 30 miles. I had speculated it may have had something to Do with Indiana. Also traffic has been declining
Anyway we have been discussing in Southern Illinois notes.

[edwaleni]

Current traffic demand in south central Indiana has shifted to a north-south demand cycle.

Traffic between Vincennes and Seymour is not what it was in prior years. When US-50 was a pre-interstate arterial between Cincy and St Louis, it handled a large amount of regional east-west traffic.  This has declined as the small industrial base moved to points closer to I-70 or I-64. North Vernon got a bypass due to the location of several suppliers relative to the Honda plant to the north.

The demand on US-50 from Olney to Vincennes is driven mostly by the Walmart Distro Center there and the prison in Lawrenceville.  That center supplies Wal Mart's in south central Illinois and Indiana.

Anything below US-50 is going to Kentucky and anything above it going via Indianapolis.  This leaves regional traffic to use I-69/I-74/US-41/IN-37 and now an updated US-231.

[3467]

Got it. Also for St Louis Cincy  it's not much shorter . Someone posted that years ago. Also 50 was out on the Illinois freeway system because of that. It has 4 lane ROW. For all but 30 miles. Also Illinois looked at  50 and Illinois 1 corridors in the sixties without looking at Indiana.

[edwaleni]

Got it. Also for St Louis Cincy  it's not much shorter . Someone posted that years ago. Also 50 was out on the Illinois freeway system because of that. It has 4 lane ROW. For all but 30 miles. Also Illinois looked at  50 and Illinois 1 corridors in the sixties without looking at Indiana.

Yes, I think the difference in the Cincy to St Louis drive, there is currently only a difference of some 45 miles between US-50 and going by Indy.

However if US-50 was modernized on the entire route, I think the mileage gap would broaden somewhat in favor of US-50.  But with these somewhat circuitous bypasses (like around Washington and North Vernon) and odd routings due to heritage rights of way (between Seymour & Loogootee) there are fewer and fewer opportunities to improve it.

The original interstate plan had it following US-150 east to Louisville which follows the old Buffalo Lick Trace. That would have routed Cincy-St Louis traffic that way instead of by Indy.

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe if Interstate 64 had been built along this corridor, US 460 would still continue to St. Louis, and would not have been truncated to Frankfort, KY.

[ilpt4u]

Maybe if Interstate 64 had been built along this corridor, US 460 would still continue to St. Louis, and would not have been truncated to Frankfort, KY.

Evansville, IN and Mount Vernon, IL successfully lobbied hard, and won, getting the I-64 St Louis <-> Louisville Interstate Corridor pushed to the current “southern” route of roughly Old US 460

Vincennes, IN and Olney, IL were not successful, in lobbying to keep I-64 on the early proposed US 50 (IL)/US 150 (IN) “northern” route

[Life in Paradise]

Maybe if Interstate 64 had been built along this corridor, US 460 would still continue to St. Louis, and would not have been truncated to Frankfort, KY.

Evansville, IN and Mount Vernon, IL successfully lobbied hard, and won, getting the I-64 St Louis <-> Louisville Interstate Corridor pushed to the current “southern” route of roughly Old US 460

Vincennes, IN and Olney, IL were not successful, in lobbying to keep I-64 on the early proposed US 50 (IL)/US 150 (IN) “northern” route

Evansville had more clout during the 1960s than perhaps even now with Vance Hartke as one of Indiana's senators and the city had a significantly larger population.  Although it would be further out of the way of the direct line between Louisville and St. Louis, what if they had been successful in moving the road even further south such as coming in on the south side of Mt. Vernon, IL from the west, and going directly to Evansville (perhaps rolling by Carmi, IL instead of 15 miles north, and then putting an expressway straight through Evansville as they did with the Lloyd Expressway?  Indiana wouldn't have had to pony up all those millions in the 80s for that expressway or I-164.  Then KY could have made a plea for a I-164 from I-64 in Southern Indiana to Owensboro (which could have been what is now US 231).

[SW Indiana]

https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/44084011/holcomb-announces-dollar475m-in-infrastructure-projects

"The state will invest $75 million for the design and construction of additional travel lanes, passing lanes and intersection improvements at specific locations along a 48-mile stretch of U.S. 231 between I-64 and I-69. The governor's office says the improvements will "significantly reduce" congestion in the Jasper and Huntingburg areas.

Construction is expected to begin by late 2022."

The commissioner says the planned Mid-States Corridor project, which would run from the Ohio River through Dubois County and connect to I-69, played a factor in the decision to make the announced improvements. The project team is currently working to complete a Tier 1 Draft Environmental Impact Study, which will also identify a preferred route that could involve U.S. 231.

"That helped us identify some of these projects that may have not been on our radar before the Tier 1 began, and so it identified some needs that we need to address today and so that's why we're happy to make this announcement because we know long-term, regardless of a bypass or a new road or new corridor, these improvements must be made."

The governor announced the projects Friday during the Southwest Indiana Chamber of Commerce's annual "Lunch with the Governor" event.

[Life in Paradise]

https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/44084011/holcomb-announces-dollar475m-in-infrastructure-projects

"The state will invest $75 million for the design and construction of additional travel lanes, passing lanes and intersection improvements at specific locations along a 48-mile stretch of U.S. 231 between I-64 and I-69. The governor's office says the improvements will "significantly reduce" congestion in the Jasper and Huntingburg areas.

Construction is expected to begin by late 2022."

The commissioner says the planned Mid-States Corridor project, which would run from the Ohio River through Dubois County and connect to I-69, played a factor in the decision to make the announced improvements. The project team is currently working to complete a Tier 1 Draft Environmental Impact Study, which will also identify a preferred route that could involve U.S. 231.

"That helped us identify some of these projects that may have not been on our radar before the Tier 1 began, and so it identified some needs that we need to address today and so that's why we're happy to make this announcement because we know long-term, regardless of a bypass or a new road or new corridor, these improvements must be made."

The governor announced the projects Friday during the Southwest Indiana Chamber of Commerce's annual "Lunch with the Governor" event.

Based on what I've read so far, the plans to upgrade US 231 through Crane are not what the group had in mind.  I didn't read any new four lane roads or bypasses of Jasper or Huntingburg.  That would make the cost much more than the 75 million dollars that is budgeted.

[ibthebigd]

https://www.courierpress.com/story/news/local/2022/04/11/indot-chooses-preferred-route-controversial-mid-states-corridor/7277119001/


Looks like corridor P is the chosen route

SM-G996U

[andy]

A bit more specifically (of interest to me) is the route P-East (of Loogootee).
The actual announcement will not be out until Friday according to the Evansville Courier Press article.

https://www.duboiscountyfreepress.com/mid-states-corridor-route-recommendation-announced-environmental-impact-statement-to-be-released-friday/

[edwaleni]

Really comes down to what people believe to be a "better road".

If a road is built for safety and limited access, then why make it go through the downtowns of these small towns, it appears so they don't lose business.

But if the roads bring more business, just not through downtown, or provide an opportunity to get more business for economic development, then it will increase the tax base long term.

Trying to build safer road on existing ROW's almost always require the acquisition of private property. So while I understand its an issue, one must remember that no matter what, if they want a road improvement, property will be required period no matter how it is routed.

[The Ghostbuster]

How crucial is building a Mid-States Corridor along US 231 in Indiana? Interstate 69 is not too far to the west. In my opinion, if upgrades are truly needed for the corridor, I'd expand US 231 to 4 lanes along its existing alignment as much as possible with bypasses around each city and town it passes through.

[ITB]

How crucial is building a Mid-States Corridor along US 231 in Indiana? Interstate 69 is not too far to the west. In my opinion, if upgrades are truly needed for the corridor, I'd expand US 231 to 4 lanes along its existing alignment as much as possible with bypasses around each city and town it passes through.

That's probably what they're going to do. There's only two mid-sized cities to bypass — Jasper, Huntingburg — and one small one, Loogootee. Bypasses around Jasper and Huntingburg are pretty much no-brainers, as shifting truck traffic away from their respective downtowns is long overdue. And, of course, the highway can't and won't go through Loogootee. Looking 40 or 50 years out, the expressway option may be more beneficial than a Super 2.

[edwaleni]

How crucial is building a Mid-States Corridor along US 231 in Indiana? Interstate 69 is not too far to the west. In my opinion, if upgrades are truly needed for the corridor, I'd expand US 231 to 4 lanes along its existing alignment as much as possible with bypasses around each city and town it passes through.

That's probably what they're going to do. There's only two mid-sized cities to bypass — Jasper, Huntingburg — and one small one, Loogootee. Bypasses around Jasper and Huntingburg are pretty much no-brainers, as shifting truck traffic away from their respective downtowns is long overdue. And, of course, the highway can't and won't go through Loogootee. Looking 40 or 50 years out, the expressway option may be more beneficial than a Super 2.

The study represents a part of the fundamental shift in national traffic patterns (IMHO). More N/S highway research underway across the country (like the Ports to Plains effort, I-57/I-49 in Arkansas) due to this.

The US population has been slowly migrating south (mostly SW) and so this has increased the amount of N/S traffic overall.

[Life in Paradise]

How crucial is building a Mid-States Corridor along US 231 in Indiana? Interstate 69 is not too far to the west. In my opinion, if upgrades are truly needed for the corridor, I'd expand US 231 to 4 lanes along its existing alignment as much as possible with bypasses around each city and town it passes through.

That's probably what they're going to do. There's only two mid-sized cities to bypass — Jasper, Huntingburg — and one small one, Loogootee. Bypasses around Jasper and Huntingburg are pretty much no-brainers, as shifting truck traffic away from their respective downtowns is long overdue. And, of course, the highway can't and won't go through Loogootee. Looking 40 or 50 years out, the expressway option may be more beneficial than a Super 2.

My guess is that this decision was mostly due to overall cost considerations compared to benefits.  The best benefit would have gone up through Jasper and then veered north east near the Patoka Lake area then up to French Lick, bypass Paoli to the NW and hook up with 4 lane IN 37 between Paoli and Orleans.  Problem with that is that it would have been very expensive to buy the property needed and then construct a four lane.  My guess is that they will make this 4 lane from Jasper to I-64 (if not, there is a major problem), bypass Huntingburg and Jasper along with a four lane bypass of Loogootee (and possibly include US50/US150 with it), and the rest a super two using mostly the ROW of US 231 as it exists now as a starting point.

[andy]

The DEIS is finally available;

https://midstatescorridor.com/deis/

from the website;
Begins at I-64/US 231 interchange
Travels east of Huntingburg and Jasper
Avoids developed areas near those cities
Parallels existing US 231 alignment to the west
Includes western bypass of Loogootee
Avoids West Boggs Lake to the east
Crosses back west of existing US 231
Continues north
Ends at I-69 interchange at US 231
Includes 9 local improvements along existing US 231

[bmeiser]

Other than the Loogootee bypass, why can’t this follow existing 231 north of Haysville? What’s the point of it wiggling around the existing ROW?

[andy]

Other than the Loogootee bypass, why can’t this follow existing 231 north of Haysville? What’s the point of it wiggling around the existing ROW?

I've not read the report yet so I'm just opining here.
At first, I'm inclined to agree about the lack of existing alignment, but what maps don't show are the hills along the current route. Flattening the current alignment would have major impact on many existing improvements along the road.

[edwaleni]

Other than the Loogootee bypass, why can’t this follow existing 231 north of Haysville? What’s the point of it wiggling around the existing ROW?

A quick survey shows a significant number of homes with driveways off the original ROW.

Another issue may be the fact there is a river that flows N/S along the west side of the current ROW.

I would surmise that a new ROW would mitigate any environmental issues trying to work around it.

[SW Indiana]

Other than the Loogootee bypass, why can’t this follow existing 231 north of Haysville? What’s the point of it wiggling around the existing ROW?

A quick survey shows a significant number of homes with driveways off the original ROW.

Another issue may be the fact there is a river that flows N/S along the west side of the current ROW.

I would surmise that a new ROW would mitigate any environmental issues trying to work around it.

A super 2 would suffice along the current roadway north of Jasper, imo. 2021 traffic counts on 231 show 5,521 on north edge of Loogootee and that drops to 4,601 at West Boggs Lake. South of Loogootee, its 6,186 and 5,622 just north of Haysville.

Even a bypass around Loogootee is sketchy. Even during peak traffic times and getting stopped at each of the three traffic lights, it takes at most 5-7 minutes to get through town.

[Rothman]

It's nice around Loogootee.  Wonder if a bypass would ruin it.

[edwaleni]

It's nice around Loogootee.  Wonder if a bypass would ruin it.

IMHO: Southern Indiana is a very cool place and not like the rest of Indiana at all. Lots of history, beautiful hills and valleys, great camping and some hidden motorcycling gems.

I used to ride and camp near Spencer (McCormicks Creek), French Lick, Paoli Peaks for winter skiing.

The steepest railroad grade in Madison, the underground caves in Corydon. Swimming in Lake Shakamak, the real lake, not the water park they have their now. Jumping off the 12 foot platform or heaven forbid the 20 footer!

The abandoned rail tunnel near Owensburg (almost collapsed now).

So much to explore and see.