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Author Topic: I-569 coming to Kentucky  (Read 14871 times)

Duke87

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2020, 01:43:14 AM »

Just establish a Paducah-to-Lexington Interstate already. Nearly all of it is already built.

My understanding is that any extension of the Bluegrass Parkway to connect to I-64 (or to KY 4) is politically problematic because it would involve taking land from farms where some prize-winning horses get bred. Which the state isn't going to do because of that whole Kentucky Derby thing.
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sparker

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2020, 04:41:51 AM »

Just establish a Paducah-to-Lexington Interstate already. Nearly all of it is already built.

My understanding is that any extension of the Bluegrass Parkway to connect to I-64 (or to KY 4) is politically problematic because it would involve taking land from farms where some prize-winning horses get bred. Which the state isn't going to do because of that whole Kentucky Derby thing.

If I recall correctly from numerous previous discussions of this issue, it seems that any potential extension -- even those more indirect, such as a southern bypass of Lexington, all have severe NIMBY issues -- the "direct trajectory" route to I-64 and/or I-75 simply being the most longstanding of the bunch.  A southern bypass of Lexington itself would have similar problems -- plowing through costly "high-end" housing in large plots being the most prominent of these.   It's been suggested that the only feasible -- in both political and logistical senses -- would be a N-S connection using an upgrade of US 127 north from the Bluegrass to I-64 at Frankfort.  Such would get the job done, albeit indirectly.

If a connection were to be established, then a new even 2di number from the availableunused pool in the 50's (personally I'd select 56) would be appropriate for the whole "shooting match" from I-69 to Frankfort.  Nevertheless, my preference for an I-71 extension west of I-65 is predicated upon such a connection not being done -- or even considered.   
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bandit957

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2020, 10:16:01 AM »

Just establish a Paducah-to-Lexington Interstate already. Nearly all of it is already built.

My understanding is that any extension of the Bluegrass Parkway to connect to I-64 (or to KY 4) is politically problematic because it would involve taking land from farms where some prize-winning horses get bred. Which the state isn't going to do because of that whole Kentucky Derby thing.

It already gets close enough to Lexington that can't they number it now?
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3467

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2020, 10:47:00 AM »

Under the new rules for Interstate numbers I suspect it could be renumbered.I think it has to end at an NBA route .
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Captain Jack

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2020, 11:28:27 AM »

I honestly don't know why the Pennyrile was never originally finished all the way to I-24 and it took decades to complete it. IIRC, the Pennyrile was completed before I-24 was, so the logical ending point was Alt. US 41. A lot of other connector routes were built as the interstates were (such as KY 32 in Morehead, KY 36 in Owingsville, KY 2 in Olive Hill) so a link to the Pennyrile could have been built then.

Correct. I believe the Pennyrile was opened around '69, and 24 was in the mid-late 70's. I can remember several trips to Nashville taking the Pennyrile to Hoptown, and then one of the 41 routes.

As someone who has driven that route countless times in the last 50 years, I too am at a loss on why it took so long to extend it. For me, what is even more illogical is the north end in Henderson. In the 60's, KY spent millions adding a second bridge over the Ohio, and 80 miles of nice limited-access parkway, yet left the two connected by a 3 mile street. Had they just finished it back then, we may not have to be building a 2nd bridge for 69.
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Life in Paradise

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2020, 12:42:11 PM »

I honestly don't know why the Pennyrile was never originally finished all the way to I-24 and it took decades to complete it. IIRC, the Pennyrile was completed before I-24 was, so the logical ending point was Alt. US 41. A lot of other connector routes were built as the interstates were (such as KY 32 in Morehead, KY 36 in Owingsville, KY 2 in Olive Hill) so a link to the Pennyrile could have been built then.

Correct. I believe the Pennyrile was opened around '69, and 24 was in the mid-late 70's. I can remember several trips to Nashville taking the Pennyrile to Hoptown, and then one of the 41 routes.

I remain one of those that believes I-71 would serve as a better label for the remaining Western KY Parkway to I-65, whether they branch it down the Pennyrile to I-24, twin it with I-69 and then rename I-155 to I-71, or simply end it at the Pennyrile.

As someone who has driven that route countless times in the last 50 years, I too am at a loss on why it took so long to extend it. For me, what is even more illogical is the north end in Henderson. In the 60's, KY spent millions adding a second bridge over the Ohio, and 80 miles of nice limited-access parkway, yet left the two connected by a 3 mile street. Had they just finished it back then, we may not have to be building a 2nd bridge for 69.

That gave Henderson their unofficial Breezewood for those years, although they are not inclined to fighting the bridge and bypass as those in PA are for getting a direct I-70 to I-70 connection.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 12:52:14 PM by Life in Paradise »
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paulthemapguy

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2020, 01:26:45 PM »

This is only one digit away from my imagined designation for the Western Kentucky Pkwy, I-56.  So I'm okay with this  :bigass:
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sparker

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2020, 04:08:30 PM »

Under the new rules for Interstate numbers I suspect it could be renumbered.I think it has to end at an NBA route .

Gee, I didn't know Lexington had gotten an NBA franchise!  :) Actually, the rules call for an Interstate to end at a NHS-designated facility. 
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hbelkins

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2020, 05:54:37 PM »

I thought there was a branch off the Mountain Parkway near Campton that was cancelled?

My 1964 Rand McNally Road Atlas (the one with the vinyl cover that smelled nice) has a branch from Campton to Hazard marked as proposed. In fact, a tiny stretch of it was marked as under construction, so I don't know what became of that.

It's KY 15. I suspect that APD funds may have been used in its construction, as it's designated as Corridor I. For years, locals in Jackson referred to it as "the Parkway" and there were a number of businesses that had "Parkway" in their names.
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Revive 755

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2020, 06:31:10 PM »

Actually, the rules call for an Interstate to end at a NHS-designated facility. 

From https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/national_highway_system/nhs_maps/kentucky/ky_kentucky.pdf, it looks like the Bluegrass Parkway would meet this criteria.

It's KY 15. I suspect that APD funds may have been used in its construction, as it's designated as Corridor I. For years, locals in Jackson referred to it as "the Parkway" and there were a number of businesses that had "Parkway" in their names.

Looks like a bypass of Jackson is (was?) under consideration still though, based on the western KY 15/KY 30 intersection.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 06:36:17 PM by Revive 755 »
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vdeane

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2020, 09:20:45 PM »

Just establish a Paducah-to-Lexington Interstate already. Nearly all of it is already built.

My understanding is that any extension of the Bluegrass Parkway to connect to I-64 (or to KY 4) is politically problematic because it would involve taking land from farms where some prize-winning horses get bred. Which the state isn't going to do because of that whole Kentucky Derby thing.

It already gets close enough to Lexington that can't they number it now?
While technically they could (it doesn't violate any specific rules), I would argue that numbering the Bluegrass as an interstate without building a connection northeast to the interstate system is bad for a system point of view.  It would basically be a giant Breezewood.  I prefer to look at interstate designation from a systemic POV, not a corridor-based one.
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3467

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2020, 09:32:14 PM »

I think my autocorrect was having a premonition about David Stern.
It really wouldn't be a Breezewood because say I 56 would come to an end and you would take the arterial to 64. It would not be a break in the middle of the same interstate.
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sparker

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2020, 02:14:28 AM »

I think my autocorrect was having a premonition about David Stern.
It really wouldn't be a Breezewood because say I 56 would come to an end and you would take the arterial to 64. It would not be a break in the middle of the same interstate.

But it would still serve as an example of the inability of the agencies tasked with planning and deploying efficient systems to come up with a solution that would provide that necessary connection rather than throwing up their hands in defeat -- for close to a half-century at this point!.  The gap would effectively be a monument to NIMBYism at its most virulent.  The Bluegrass and the agencies charged with its existence & upkeep don't deserve a trunk Interstate designation until they can grit their teeth and formulate some sort of freeway connection to I-64 and/or I-75.   A 3di of I-65 (the long-missing I-365?) would be more appropriate until the connection was a reality. 
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3467

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2020, 09:08:16 AM »

Cannot disagree with that .NIMBY ism is the reason we might as well give them a 2di. There are not going to be many more built anyway. Might as well use the number.
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vdeane

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2020, 01:50:40 PM »

I think my autocorrect was having a premonition about David Stern.
It really wouldn't be a Breezewood because say I 56 would come to an end and you would take the arterial to 64. It would not be a break in the middle of the same interstate.
You're thinking from a corridor/interchange perspective, not a system one.  That lack of a connection is a problem from a system level.  Think of cities as nodes and interstates as links.  If you're traveling north on I-65 and looking to head east on I-64, navigating "old school", with some system familiarity but not a ton, you might see "I-5x East, Lexington" and think "I-64 goes through Lexington too, this looks like a nice shortcut" and then get stuck on 15 miles of arterial highway, not realizing that you should have gone up to Louisville for anything on I-64.  Interstates are supposed to be useful as a system, not just a random collection of corridors that happen to have a specific shield.  The Bluegrass isn't useful from a system POV, so IMO it should not be an interstate unless it becomes useful in that respect.

Not to mention that it's extraordinarily inelegant as-is.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2020, 05:19:22 PM »

I would support making the entire WKY Interstate 569, but keep the Bluegrass Parkway with its existing (secret) KY 9002 designation. As for those parkways that have become Interstates, I would have preferred that the roads also kept their pre-Interstate parkways names, even after becoming Interstates.
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tidecat

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2020, 10:02:51 PM »

I think my autocorrect was having a premonition about David Stern.
It really wouldn't be a Breezewood because say I 56 would come to an end and you would take the arterial to 64. It would not be a break in the middle of the same interstate.
You're thinking from a corridor/interchange perspective, not a system one.  That lack of a connection is a problem from a system level.  Think of cities as nodes and interstates as links.  If you're traveling north on I-65 and looking to head east on I-64, navigating "old school", with some system familiarity but not a ton, you might see "I-5x East, Lexington" and think "I-64 goes through Lexington too, this looks like a nice shortcut" and then get stuck on 15 miles of arterial highway, not realizing that you should have gone up to Louisville for anything on I-64.  Interstates are supposed to be useful as a system, not just a random collection of corridors that happen to have a specific shield.  The Bluegrass isn't useful from a system POV, so IMO it should not be an interstate unless it becomes useful in that respect.

Not to mention that it's extraordinarily inelegant as-is.
In most cases the Bluegrass is the superior alternative to taking I-64 for traffic from Elizabethtown and points south. You may have 15 non-freeway miles taking the Parkway, but it beats 31 miles on I-65, and another 15 miles on I-265 just to get to I-64.

That said, I would not give it a 2 digit interstate designation unless if it connects to I-75.
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ilpt4u

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2020, 10:18:19 PM »

In most cases the Bluegrass is the superior alternative to taking I-64 for traffic from Elizabethtown and points south. You may have 15 non-freeway miles taking the Parkway, but it beats 31 miles on I-65, and another 15 miles on I-265 just to get to I-64.

That said, I would not give it a 2 digit interstate designation unless if it connects to I-75.
An (odd)3DI I think could still be appropriate for the Bluegrass. If the rest of the Western KY were to become I-71 instead of I-569 I’d be a fan of making the Bluegrass I-171

I might even be in favor of continuing this I-569 designation on the Bluegrass, approaching the Lexington and Frankfurt areas. Its already odd, and it Spurs to I-69 on one end and the Capital and one of the Larger Metro Areas in KY on the other
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hbelkins

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2020, 12:02:29 PM »

The flyover ramp that was built a few years ago from eastbound US 60 to northbound KY 4 (New Circle Road) helps with the flow of traffic from the BG to I-64, and the improvements that are being made at the KY 4/KY 922 (Newtown Pike) interchange to renovate that antiquated cloverleaf should help as well, but there are a bunch of traffic lights along KY 922, and a short merge area onto southbound 75/eastbound 64 (but I understand that some work is planned to alleviate that). You actually encounter fewer signals by taking KY 4 to US 27/68, but again, there's a short merge area onto the interstate plus a shorter acceleration area due to the folded diamond design of the interchange.

Plus, when Keeneland is in session for spring and fall meets, traffic is a nightmare around the airport on US 60. I've taken to avoiding Keeneland traffic and afternoon Lexington rush hour when necessary by using US 127 from Lawrenceburg up to Frankfort.

The state really messed up by not pursuing the extension on to I-64 somewhere in Scott County back in the 1960s, and now that land has become prohibitively expensive and the NIMBYs are entrenched (especially in Woodford County) so an extension will never happen.

Someone upthread mentioned a southern bypass. The state has proposed building a link from US 27 near Nicholasville, with a new Kentucky River crossing, to connect with I-75 near Exit 95 in Madison County. The NIMBYs are opposed to this as well. The typical arguments about "sprawl" come up. Those fears could be allayed with local zoning and strict access control on the new route.
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sparker

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2020, 07:06:11 PM »

^^^^^^^^^^
Forgive me for both harping on this and/or indulging in something a tad fictional, but an upgrade of US 127 north from the Bluegrass to I-64 south of Frankfort seems the most feasible way to effect a connection.   We all know a slash through horse country between Frankfort & Lexington's not going to happen; likewise a southern Lexington bypass through pricey exurban property.  Not much else left; there's too much commercial development along US 60 for an overlay or adjacent ROW.  A northward 127 jog certainly wouldn't be the most efficient -- but, then, that ship has long sailed! 
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jnewkirk77

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2020, 11:21:57 PM »

I would support making the entire WKY Interstate 569, but keep the Bluegrass Parkway with its existing (secret) KY 9002 designation. As for those parkways that have become Interstates, I would have preferred that the roads also kept their pre-Interstate parkways names, even after becoming Interstates.

I-165 has several green signs designating it as the "William H. Natcher Expressway." They wouldn't be able to do that with the Wendell H. Ford Western Kentucky Parkway because the "Wendell H. Ford Expressway" already exists around Owensboro. They could, however, name it the "Wendell H. Ford Freeway" if they wanted.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2020, 11:24:21 PM »

^

Why not just continue to call it a "Parkway"? I see no issues with that.
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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2020, 09:45:41 AM »

^^^^^^^^^^
Forgive me for both harping on this and/or indulging in something a tad fictional, but an upgrade of US 127 north from the Bluegrass to I-64 south of Frankfort seems the most feasible way to effect a connection.   We all know a slash through horse country between Frankfort & Lexington's not going to happen; likewise a southern Lexington bypass through pricey exurban property.  Not much else left; there's too much commercial development along US 60 for an overlay or adjacent ROW.  A northward 127 jog certainly wouldn't be the most efficient -- but, then, that ship has long sailed! 

Right. I think there are signs directing people to use US 127 as a connector to I-64, so it's not that big of a deal already. Connecting the Bluegrass Parkway to I-64 is just adding a very expensive redundant route at this point given that it cannot be feasibly extended as the financial and popular support just isn't there. Heck, even a four-lane northwest bypass of Versailles (itself an overkill) was shot down very early on for the same reasons.

WKDAVE

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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2020, 10:03:15 AM »

The flyover ramp that was built a few years ago from eastbound US 60 to northbound KY 4 (New Circle Road) helps with the flow of traffic from the BG to I-64, and the improvements that are being made at the KY 4/KY 922 (Newtown Pike) interchange to renovate that antiquated cloverleaf should help as well, but there are a bunch of traffic lights along KY 922, and a short merge area onto southbound 75/eastbound 64 (but I understand that some work is planned to alleviate that). You actually encounter fewer signals by taking KY 4 to US 27/68, but again, there's a short merge area onto the interstate plus a shorter acceleration area due to the folded diamond design of the interchange.

Plus, when Keeneland is in session for spring and fall meets, traffic is a nightmare around the airport on US 60. I've taken to avoiding Keeneland traffic and afternoon Lexington rush hour when necessary by using US 127 from Lawrenceburg up to Frankfort.

The state really messed up by not pursuing the extension on to I-64 somewhere in Scott County back in the 1960s, and now that land has become prohibitively expensive and the NIMBYs are entrenched (especially in Woodford County) so an extension will never happen.

Someone upthread mentioned a southern bypass. The state has proposed building a link from US 27 near Nicholasville, with a new Kentucky River crossing, to connect with I-75 near Exit 95 in Madison County. The NIMBYs are opposed to this as well. The typical arguments about "sprawl" come up. Those fears could be allayed with local zoning and strict access control on the new route.

I agree that IF the Nicholasville-I75 connector is ever built, the "solution" to a 2 digit Bluegrass Pkwy-based interstate is to connect the Bluegrass to that proposed connector via KY 169 corridor. The KY 169 connector would be about the same mileage as a US 127 connector.
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Re: I-569 coming to Kentucky
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2020, 02:37:02 PM »

does kentucky really need any more interstates?  i feel like all the new proposals for interstates are based on slim reasons through states that can barely afford to take care of what they already have. i-14 is a big version of this, no one seriously believes this interstate is needed, in texas barely, in miss? louisiana? alabama? hell no. alabama is too busy wasting all their money on that useless birmingham bypass at the moment.
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