Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Grzrd]

We're not talking about moving dirt or even making drawings, but creating the bi-state commission that needs to be set up before anything else can happen. Let's get it done. .... it looks like the next emphasis by the powers that be will be on either our bridge or one replacing the Brent Spence Bridge connecting Northern Kentucky with Cincinnati.
Competing for attention with a big town like Cincinnati and Kentucky's Golden Triangle will be tough. Working in our favor is what seems to be a realization down here that in this day and age it's not going to happen without putting tolls on the bridge ....

This Indiana Public Media article expressly mentions a public-private patnership as probably being a component of using tolling as a funding mechanism for the I-69 Ohio River Bridge:

Plans for a bridge connecting Interstate 69 from Indiana to Kentucky are in the works.
The bridge, although it’s likely still many years from completion, is a joint project between the two states.
Executive Director of Hoosier Voices for I-69 Morgan Hutton says the new bridge will probably be funded through a public-private partnership, and become a toll-bridge.
“In this reality with gas tax revenues declining, which is the typical transportation funding mechanism, both sides of the river, in both Kentucky and Indiana, there is an acceptance that a toll may be needed to get that bridge completed,“ she says.

The slow-but-steady PR campaign continues ...

[SSF]

If it is a dollar or so each way for cash and far less for electronic tolls, i'd pay that toll to avoid Henderson/Evansville and the corridor of traffic llights from the start of the Pennyrile to I-64. 

[ShawnP]

Agree on that as I have many a late night cursing those lights. Traveling from STL to Bowling Green, Ky always involved those darn lights.

[Grzrd]

Business leaders continue to talk about the I-69 Ohio River Bridge.  First, however, this opinion piece has the Executive Director of the Warrick County Chamber of Commerce recounting a tour she had recently taken of I-69 construction in southern Indiana:

Last Friday, I had an opportunity to tour the construction along the new Interstate 69 route. As one travels north on I-164 and it turns into I-69, you can see the interstate stretch northward, it calls to be driven on and the opportunity to do just that was well worth being outside on a hot July day.
Our group, a mixture of business and government leaders, along with INDOT staff, met at S.R. 68 just past the “do not enter, road closed” sign to begin our tour.
We traveled along the new interstate, taking some temporary off road trails to get around a couple of bridge structures still under construction. The lack of rain in this area has been a benefit to the construction companies as they work toward the planned November opening of sections 1 through 3 of I-69. It is amazing to see the progress on the road. After months of heavy earth moving, pavement is now going down at a quick pace. When traveling the interstate at 70 miles per hour, you don’t take notice of the detail that goes into the construction of each mile. Along one bridge, we stopped and were able to get up close to view the details of the expansion joints in the guardrails. They actually slide up to six inches to account for the bridge railing expanding and contracting with the temperature fluctuations of the day. ...

Hmmm... I wonder if INDOT would give a tour to a roadgeek group for up-close-and-personal observations?

Back to the bridge ... The Executive Director is not satisfied with just the current construction; she is also beating the drum for the bridge:

The completion of Interstate 69 has been a business and government goal for years. With the opening of the next sections it is ever important that we continue to work with business and government across the region and the Ohio River to link I-69 in Kentucky with I-69 in Indiana. This further expands our regional economic growth.

Staying on message...

[mukade]

Hmmm... I wonder if INDOT would give a tour to a roadgeek group for up-close-and-personal observations?

I would not be too surprised if they would. This is a big PR thing - both to counter the anti-I-69 opinions and to build support for spending money to complete it.

[Grzrd]

With I-69 now completed from Evansville to Crane, and scheduled for completion from Crane to Bloomington in a couple of years, this TV video report examines the question of what should come next: I-69 from Bloomington-to-Indianapolis or the I-69 Ohio River bridge from Evansville to Henderson. Indiana Lieutenant Governor Elect Sue Ellsperman seems to indicate that Indiana wants to finish Bloomigton to Indianapolis first and then build the bridge:

"First and foremost," said Ellsperman, "we have to do our part, which is to get this completed and get the segments completed through Indianapolis [a]nd then absolutely working with our neighbors in Kentucky because the benefits are good for all of our communities."

The video has some footage of the US 41 twin bridges.

[jnewkirk77]

I think they're going to see a lot more need for the Ohio River crossing to be next in line.  Traffic's bad now (at drive times) on 41 between Evansville and Henderson, and it's only going to get worse.

[theline]

The problem here is that border that runs along the river. If there was one government that was concerned with the development of the whole region, there might be priority for the bridge. As it is, you've got one government in Indianapolis and another in Frankfort that see things differently. The folks in Indy in particular see connecting SW Indiana to Indy as the higher priority.

As someone who has driven US-41 between Evansville and Henderson, I see the need for the new bridge. I'm just trying to be realistic. I doubt that this bridge goes anywhere until the Louisville crossings are done.

[hbelkins]

The problem here is that border that runs along the river. If there was one government that was concerned with the development of the whole region, there might be priority for the bridge. As it is, you've got one government in Indianapolis and another in Frankfort that see things differently. The folks in Indy in particular see connecting SW Indiana to Indy as the higher priority.

As someone who has driven US-41 between Evansville and Henderson, I see the need for the new bridge. I'm just trying to be realistic. I doubt that this bridge goes anywhere until the Louisville crossings are done.

A replacement or companion for the Brent Spence Bridge (I-71 and I-75) at Cincinnati is a higher priority for Kentucky than a new I-69 bridge.

[mukade]

The problem here is that border that runs along the river. If there was one government that was concerned with the development of the whole region, there might be priority for the bridge. As it is, you've got one government in Indianapolis and another in Frankfort that see things differently. The folks in Indy in particular see connecting SW Indiana to Indy as the higher priority.

As someone who has driven US-41 between Evansville and Henderson, I see the need for the new bridge. I'm just trying to be realistic. I doubt that this bridge goes anywhere until the Louisville crossings are done.

The Evansville paper had an online poll yesterday and building it to Bloomington got 60% of the vote for top priority. The new bridge received only 9%. Other responses were should not have been built, US 41/I-70 was better, and l can't believe they built it. Anyway, the bridge will not be built anytime soon.

[jnewkirk77]

Everyone up and down the river might as well hook up to the idea of paying tolls when they do finally get around to building the new bridges.  It's going to be the only way of getting anything done, unless someone has a better idea. 

[vdeane]

The problem is that KY is pursuing new bridges in Lousiville and doesn't care for the I-69 bridge.

[hbelkins]

The problem is that KY is pursuing new bridges in Lousiville and doesn't care for the I-69 bridge.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Kentucky does care about I-69; witness the signing of the "Future I-69 Corridor" designations on the parkways, and the work to bring the WK Parkway up to Interstate specs. It's just that the Louisville and Northern KY/Cincy crossings are much more pressing needs. It's a matter of priorities; and for current traffic concerns, a new Evansville-to-Henderson crossing has to take a back seat to the routes already in existence.

Although I will go to my grave saying that the second Louisville I-65 downtown bridge is not needed.

[jnewkirk77]

The problem is that KY is pursuing new bridges in Lousiville and doesn't care for the I-69 bridge.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Kentucky does care about I-69; witness the signing of the "Future I-69 Corridor" designations on the parkways, and the work to bring the WK Parkway up to Interstate specs. It's just that the Louisville and Northern KY/Cincy crossings are much more pressing needs. It's a matter of priorities; and for current traffic concerns, a new Evansville-to-Henderson crossing has to take a back seat to the routes already in existence.

Although I will go to my grave saying that the second Louisville I-65 downtown bridge is not needed.

You'd get no argument here on that ... I think the East End bridge will ease a lot of pain downtown.

[vdeane]

The problem is that KY is pursuing new bridges in Lousiville and doesn't care for the I-69 bridge.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Kentucky does care about I-69; witness the signing of the "Future I-69 Corridor" designations on the parkways, and the work to bring the WK Parkway up to Interstate specs. It's just that the Louisville and Northern KY/Cincy crossings are much more pressing needs. It's a matter of priorities; and for current traffic concerns, a new Evansville-to-Henderson crossing has to take a back seat to the routes already in existence.

Although I will go to my grave saying that the second Louisville I-65 downtown bridge is not needed.

I said "I-69 bridge".  The REST of the route is what they're working on.

The people in Owensboro disagree about the bridge priorities.

[Grzrd]

I took a look at the 2012 Recommended Highway Plan to see what's projected for I-69 from FY 2012 to FY 2018.
New Terrain: A baby step - 2012 Project Review to locate the I-69 alignment around Henderson from the Pennyrile Parkway to the Ohio River Crossing (page 54/136 of pdf; page 54 of document).

(above quote from I-69 in KY thread)

Since several years have passed since it was issued, I thought some might enjoy taking a look at the Executive Summary of the 2004 Draft Environmental Impact Statement for I-69 between Evansville and Henderson. Here is a map of the Alternatives that were considered (page 13/23 of pdf; page S-13 of document):


Alternative 2 was identified as the Preferred Alternative (page 23/23 of pdf; page S-23 of document):

In summary, Alternatives 1, 1A, 2, and 3 each have their own unique impacts. However, Alternative 2 performs strongly in meeting the project purpose and need, requires fewer acres of right-of-way and farmland than the western alternatives, utilizes 18 miles of existing Interstate highway, requires the fewest residential and business relocations, has the fewest number of adverse historical impacts, and is the least costly alternative. Given this comprehensive evaluation of impacts, Alternative 2 is identified as the preferred alternative.

Does anyone know if KYTC has started the Project Review for the alignment around Henderson? - edit - I recently received an email reply to this question from KYTC:

... The project you referenced in your question is in the early stages of planning.  The Recommended Highway Plan has money set aside for its construction in 2019.  This is a target construction date and at this time we are uncertain as to if that date is realistic or not.

[jnewkirk77]

The problem is that KY is pursuing new bridges in Lousiville and doesn't care for the I-69 bridge.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Kentucky does care about I-69; witness the signing of the "Future I-69 Corridor" designations on the parkways, and the work to bring the WK Parkway up to Interstate specs. It's just that the Louisville and Northern KY/Cincy crossings are much more pressing needs. It's a matter of priorities; and for current traffic concerns, a new Evansville-to-Henderson crossing has to take a back seat to the routes already in existence.

Although I will go to my grave saying that the second Louisville I-65 downtown bridge is not needed.

I said "I-69 bridge".  The REST of the route is what they're working on.

The people in Owensboro disagree about the bridge priorities.

This person in Owensboro wants a new I-69 bridge ASAP.  The leaders here who want the I-67 pie-in-the-sky don't represent all of us.  Some of us actually think what we have is fine and aren't greedy for more, especially when there's a more pressing need just to the west of us.

[seicer]

The problem is that KY is pursuing new bridges in Lousiville and doesn't care for the I-69 bridge.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Kentucky does care about I-69; witness the signing of the "Future I-69 Corridor" designations on the parkways, and the work to bring the WK Parkway up to Interstate specs. It's just that the Louisville and Northern KY/Cincy crossings are much more pressing needs. It's a matter of priorities; and for current traffic concerns, a new Evansville-to-Henderson crossing has to take a back seat to the routes already in existence.

Although I will go to my grave saying that the second Louisville I-65 downtown bridge is not needed.

I said "I-69 bridge".  The REST of the route is what they're working on.

The people in Owensboro disagree about the bridge priorities.

I don't even think you even live in the area, and merely want to see blue lines drawn on a map to satisfy your self road interests.

The current US 41 bridges are adequate and structurally fine. They may not be ten lanes wide with full shoulders, but serve the area well and have done so for decades. This is not a high priority project because US 41, a four lane highway with minimal intrusions, is not a significant burden to through traffic, and it is also cost prohibitive.

There are other projects that were developed far earlier and are much further along the design-review-construction process. They include,
a) The Ohio River Bridges Project, which includes the new I-65 Downtown Bridge, the I-265 East End Bridge and Tunnel, and the reconstructed I-64/65/71 interchange. This is a $4 billion project that will be tolled due to its expense. There are two functional interstate crossings in Louisville, and the Sherman Minton carries 80,000 per day while the Kennedy Bridge 122,300 per day - or 106% of its original design capacity.
b) The Brent Spence Bridge Project, which includes a new I-75 bridge separate from the existing facility. It is projected to cost nearly $2 billion and there is no funding. It has not yet received authorization for tolling, although both governors of Kentucky and Ohio are supportive of open-road tolling measures. The Brent Spence Bridge carries over 158,000 per day.

The US 41 bridges carry a combined 37,178 per day, a 2010 estimate. That is nowhere near their total design capacity.

And US 41 is between Evansville, Indiana and Henderson, Kentucky - not Owensboro.

[mukade]

I also do not live in that area, but my perspective is that the existing bridges, despite some deficiencies, are fine, but US 41 through Henderson is a huge problem. I thought upgrading US 41 in Henderson would be acceptable, but apparently KYTC thinks otherwise. They understand the situation far better than I do.

FWIW, it took me 30 minutes to go through Henderson last May. Unless that was unusual, that is a problem. I-69 will soon approach from the north and south so something needs to get done because it will get worse otherwise.

[jnewkirk77]

The problem is that KY is pursuing new bridges in Lousiville and doesn't care for the I-69 bridge.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Kentucky does care about I-69; witness the signing of the "Future I-69 Corridor" designations on the parkways, and the work to bring the WK Parkway up to Interstate specs. It's just that the Louisville and Northern KY/Cincy crossings are much more pressing needs. It's a matter of priorities; and for current traffic concerns, a new Evansville-to-Henderson crossing has to take a back seat to the routes already in existence.

Although I will go to my grave saying that the second Louisville I-65 downtown bridge is not needed.

I said "I-69 bridge".  The REST of the route is what they're working on.

The people in Owensboro disagree about the bridge priorities.

I don't even think you even live in the area, and merely want to see blue lines drawn on a map to satisfy your self road interests.

The current US 41 bridges are adequate and structurally fine. They may not be ten lanes wide with full shoulders, but serve the area well and have done so for decades. This is not a high priority project because US 41, a four lane highway with minimal intrusions, is not a significant burden to through traffic, and it is also cost prohibitive.

There are other projects that were developed far earlier and are much further along the design-review-construction process. They include,
a) The Ohio River Bridges Project, which includes the new I-65 Downtown Bridge, the I-265 East End Bridge and Tunnel, and the reconstructed I-64/65/71 interchange. This is a $4 billion project that will be tolled due to its expense. There are two functional interstate crossings in Louisville, and the Sherman Minton carries 80,000 per day while the Kennedy Bridge 122,300 per day - or 106% of its original design capacity.
b) The Brent Spence Bridge Project, which includes a new I-75 bridge separate from the existing facility. It is projected to cost nearly $2 billion and there is no funding. It has not yet received authorization for tolling, although both governors of Kentucky and Ohio are supportive of open-road tolling measures. The Brent Spence Bridge carries over 158,000 per day.

The US 41 bridges carry a combined 37,178 per day, a 2010 estimate. That is nowhere near their total design capacity.

And US 41 is between Evansville, Indiana and Henderson, Kentucky - not Owensboro.

I didn't realize the VPD count was that low on the Twin Bridges.  Feels like more when you're sitting in the middle of it, I guess! (LOL!)

It's NOT unusual for it to take a considerable amount of time to go through Henderson.  A minor fender-bender on the NB bridge or near Ellis Park or Waterworks Road can easily back things up past the KY-351 Zion exit for a long period of time, although I think that's more a (dys)function of accident cleanup than anything safety related.  Even when things are moving, though, at drive times (AM & PM), it's not unheard of for it to take 15 minutes or more to get through.

I think KYTC needs to do some studying of the road as it now stands and maybe make some minor changes, like retiming signals, limiting left turns to intersections only, combining access points, things like that.

But I'm not a traffic engineer ... I just call things as I see 'em.

[mukade]

Unfortunately, it will take more than minor changes. That road will never be efficient. That is probably why they proposed the new bridge and route.

[jnewkirk77]

I have to agree ... but hopefully they can do some "band-aid" work to perhaps make what's there work a little better until that gets done.

[Captain Jack]

I agree that the bridges can handle the current traffic loads, and even a little more, but there certainly needs to be some changes.

I think a much quicker and cost effective response would be to elevate US 41 through the so called Henderson strip. This 3 mile section would be an urban freeway, with frontage lanes immediately below the highway on each side. Two interchanges, one at Watson Lane and the other at Marywood Drive. Eliminate the cross at the Wolf Hills Road.

On the north side of the river, northbound exit into Ellis Park, southbound exit at Trocodero and follow existing road under the highway near the bridges and back into Ellis Park. Eliminate the cross at Waterworks Road.  That road really serves no purpose that can't be accomplished with Veterans Parkway, and it is a very dangerous intersection.

I think this can be done in the near future at a fraction of the cost of new highway and bridges, and accomplish what is needed for the immediate time. When funds are available down the road, a new bridge can be built.

[jnewkirk77]

I agree that the bridges can handle the current traffic loads, and even a little more, but there certainly needs to be some changes.

I think a much quicker and cost effective response would be to elevate US 41 through the so called Henderson strip. This 3 mile section would be an urban freeway, with frontage lanes immediately below the highway on each side. Two interchanges, one at Watson Lane and the other at Marywood Drive. Eliminate the cross at the Wolf Hills Road.

On the north side of the river, northbound exit into Ellis Park, southbound exit at Trocodero and follow existing road under the highway near the bridges and back into Ellis Park. Eliminate the cross at Waterworks Road.  That road really serves no purpose that can't be accomplished with Veterans Parkway, and it is a very dangerous intersection.

I think this can be done in the near future at a fraction of the cost of new highway and bridges, and accomplish what is needed for the immediate time. When funds are available down the road, a new bridge can be built.

Good ideas, Cap'n.  I like your thinking.  I wonder what elevating 41 through there would cost.  I'm definitely in favor of your Ellis Park/Trocadero and Waterworks Road ideas.

[thefro]

Yeah, it's definitely lower priority than the Louisville bridges (for both IN & KY), the I-75 bridge (for KY), and upgrading SR 37 to I-69 (for IN).

Once I-69 is complete in IN & KY except for the bridge, I think there will be more pressure to finish it, but you're not going to get a sizeable increase in traffic until I-69 reaches Memphis.