US route on a toll road?

[wxfree]

No, it is not a US route or any form of state highway.  When TxDOT was considering developing the road, it was referred to as US 183A in planning documents.  When the RMA took over, it was no longer considered part of the TxDOT system.

I am not sure that is actually true.  My understanding is that roads in Texas developed and maintained by public toll agencies (including RMAs and RTAs, TxDOT's turnpike division, etc. but not private toll companies such as the developer of the former Camino Colombia toll road) are formally classified as state highways, even though TxDOT in most cases either has no direct responsibility for construction or maintenance, or has farmed it out to a private company through a CDA.  The underlying rationale for this policy is to facilitate reversion to TxDOT in the event the agency runs into financial trouble and also to give TxDOT leverage to enforce its engineering standards.

That's mostly true, except for the part about the roads being state highways.  CTRMA's 290E, Sam Rayburn Tollway, and parts of the Bush Turnpike were built in TxDOT right-of-way after they built the frontage roads, which (except for the case of portions of the Bush Turnpike) continue to exist as state highways.  This is done by agreement with TxDOT.  The main lanes are removed from the state highway system, since they're being operated by a political subdivision rather than a state agency.  The 121 (Rayburn) agreement states:

[T]he Segment's main lanes and associated right-of-way shall be removed from the state highway system and transferred to the Authority as more specifically set forth in the following paragraph and pursuant to multiple agreements for the lease, sale, or conveyance of a toll project or system under Subchapter D (the "Transfer Agreements" ). The frontage roads will not be transferred and shall remain on the state highway system.

What you describe is mostly true about TxDOT toll projects being transferred to other toll authorities.  TxDOT has agreements to enforce its standards, and in the case of the Rayburn Tollway, the project will revert to TxDOT after approximately 50 years.  Recent legislation requires that new transfers to regional authorities be permanent, so there will be no more of those arrangements, unless the law is changed again.

Toll roads on which the main lanes are state highways are run by TxDOT's Toll Operations Division or by CDA.  I think CCRMA's current toll road is actually SH 550, making it an exception.  I'd like to learn more about that arrangement.

I really didn't mean to derail this topic.  I'll incorporate the next question here so as to minimize the effect.

What about the PGBT?  TxDOT had it on the books at one point as SH 190 and in fact the present PGBT/DNT stack was originally built as a TxDOT project, but now both the PGBT and DNT mainlanes are under NTTA jurisdiction.

I have not read the Bush Turnpike agreement.  TxDOT's statewide planning map does not show any portion of SH 161 or 190 along the turnpike as a state highway, although along the western extension (I-20 to 183) the frontage roads are signed as SH 161 with the non-toll black-and-white signs.  I don't know the technicalities of that arrangement.  Those documents were not as easy to find as the ones for the 121 Rayburn project (not that I've looked all that much just yet).  NTTA does make a point of saying that its toll roads are not part of the state highway system.  DNT is the only long road project on the NTTA system that never was a TxDOT project; it was developed independently by the Texas Turnpike Authority (back before it was abolished and the name used for a new TxDOT division [recently renamed the Toll Operations Division]) and NTTA.

[agentsteel53]

What about the PGBT?

I actually had to look that one up.  Here I thought you were just making a joke by calling it the Papa George Bush Turnpike.

[NE2]

It's pronounced pig butt.

[J N Winkler]

Wxfree--many thanks for the analysis addressing whether toll roads owned or operated by regional authorities are in fact part of the state highway system in Texas.

I actually had to look that one up.  Here I thought you were just making a joke by calling it the Papa George Bush Turnpike.

It's kind of funny, isn't it.  Long ago I got a copy of the construction plans for the IH 35E/PGBT stack, which was built as a TxDOT project and was in progress when I visited Dallas in 2003.  At that time the turnpike was identified on advance guide and interchange sequence signs as "President George Bush Turnpike," i.e., the name spelled out in full.  It turned out that in the original construction plans, TxDOT had called for it to be given a black-on-white rectangular shield (similar to that used on guide signs for various types of state highway) with "PGBT" as the route designation, similar to "OSR" for the Old San Antonio Road.

In the years since, the PGBT has played a starring role in NTTA's game of musical chairs for trailblazers.  At first (certainly by 2004) NTTA had a square trailblazer for this highway consisting of the full name (all-uppercase letters) below a waving Stars and Stripes design.  This was used in independent-mount locations only, not on guide signs, where the name was spelled out in full instead, using full-size letters.  This was when the DNT had a circular trailblazer, the Mountain Creek Lake toll bridge had an upside-down pentagon trailblazer, etc.  Later, in 2008, NTTA decided that all of its facilities should have a common trailblazer design (24" x 36", oblong vertically), with the only variation being the facility name, again spelled out in full.  I believe these signs were used only in independent-mount locations--for guide signs NTTA pursued several strategies, ranging from spelling out the name in full ("Sam Rayburn Tollway," e.g.) to using the generic TxDOT state toll marker for toll roads which were still associated with a numbered TxDOT route (for example, plans called at one time for the SRT to get SH 121 Toll shields on overhead signs).

I have now fallen somewhat out of touch with NTTA trailblazer replacements (!), but I understand the current signing strategy is built around using an adaptation of the generic TxDOT state toll marker, only with the digits replaced by the route abbreviation (SRT, PGBT, DNT, etc.) in Clearview, and the stylized state-flag-and-"TOLL" design on the bottom replaced with NTTA's own circle-T "TOLL" logo.  These shields are used on guide signs, and the facility name is also spelled out in full, so the result is a belt-and-braces solution.  I don't know if these new shields are also used in independent-mount locations.

[builder_J]

I think the US 169/ Broadway Bridge in Kansas City was tolled at one time. 

It was...until 1991.

[route56]

I think the US 169/ Broadway Bridge in Kansas City was tolled at one time. 

It was...until 1991.

The Broadway Bridge did not receive the US 169 designation until after the tolls were removed. Prior to 1991, 169 used the Fairfax/Platte Purchase bridges (though, the Platte Purchase bridge was also a toll bridge at one time)

[bassoon1986]

Wxfree--many thanks for the analysis addressing whether toll roads owned or operated by regional authorities are in fact part of the state highway system in Texas.

I actually had to look that one up.  Here I thought you were just making a joke by calling it the Papa George Bush Turnpike.

It's kind of funny, isn't it.  Long ago I got a copy of the construction plans for the IH 35E/PGBT stack, which was built as a TxDOT project and was in progress when I visited Dallas in 2003.  At that time the turnpike was identified on advance guide and interchange sequence signs as "President George Bush Turnpike," i.e., the name spelled out in full.  It turned out that in the original construction plans, TxDOT had called for it to be given a black-on-white rectangular shield (similar to that used on guide signs for various types of state highway) with "PGBT" as the route designation, similar to "OSR" for the Old San Antonio Road.

In the years since, the PGBT has played a starring role in NTTA's game of musical chairs for trailblazers.  At first (certainly by 2004) NTTA had a square trailblazer for this highway consisting of the full name (all-uppercase letters) below a waving Stars and Stripes design.  This was used in independent-mount locations only, not on guide signs, where the name was spelled out in full instead, using full-size letters.  This was when the DNT had a circular trailblazer, the Mountain Creek Lake toll bridge had an upside-down pentagon trailblazer, etc.  Later, in 2008, NTTA decided that all of its facilities should have a common trailblazer design (24" x 36", oblong vertically), with the only variation being the facility name, again spelled out in full.  I believe these signs were used only in independent-mount locations--for guide signs NTTA pursued several strategies, ranging from spelling out the name in full ("Sam Rayburn Tollway," e.g.) to using the generic TxDOT state toll marker for toll roads which were still associated with a numbered TxDOT route (for example, plans called at one time for the SRT to get SH 121 Toll shields on overhead signs).

I have now fallen somewhat out of touch with NTTA trailblazer replacements (!), but I understand the current signing strategy is built around using an adaptation of the generic TxDOT state toll marker, only with the digits replaced by the route abbreviation (SRT, PGBT, DNT, etc.) in Clearview, and the stylized state-flag-and-"TOLL" design on the bottom replaced with NTTA's own circle-T "TOLL" logo.  These shields are used on guide signs, and the facility name is also spelled out in full, so the result is a belt-and-braces solution.  I don't know if these new shields are also used in independent-mount locations.

Yes, most of them are the blue signs with different words or letters inside. Dallas North Tollway is still a mix. On the newest section from 121 north to US 380 it's a combination of newer blue signs with the older green D signs. I think the only place a DNT logo is on a BGS is on the 121 Toll/Sam Rayburn Tollway. All other major interchanges (I-35E downtown, I-635, PGBT) just write the name out with no logo.

Toll 121 and SRT (both blue signs) are really used interchangeably IIRC, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. I know I remember SRT signage on BGS's at the beginning of the tollway leaving Grapevine and entering Lewisville/Coppell. On southbound Dallas North Tollway, the exit says 121 Toll, but at the split for NB and SB stack, I think the logos say SRT.