Stupid Driver

[mightyace]

^^^^

And, that's why I dislike ticketing for "not keeping up with the flow of traffic."

In your hypothetical 80/55mph scenario, the cops could ticket you no matter what you were doing.  Obviously, they could ticket you for speeding if you're going 80 and the "everybody was doing it" argument falls prey to "well we can't arrest everybody and you were breaking the law."

But, doing 55 in that scenario you could be ticketed for being a safety hazard.

In other words, a no potential no-win situation.  In reality, the local authorities will only get you for one or the other, but if you're not a local, good luck.

But, I guess if you're potentially damned if you do and damned if you don't, then I reluctantly say go 80.  If you're not ticketed, you'll get there faster.  (and maybe even if you are)

NOTE TO OUR EUROPEAN MEMBERS
On a different note, I'm sure that speed differential on the German Autobahns can be much greater than 25mph (40kph).  So, how is it generally treated and how safe is it?

[corco]

Yeah- I can't imagine how to enforce it with existing laws in place- our society is so centered on speed limits being super important even when we routinely violate and disagree with them that there's little way to succeed. As a whole, we seem convinced that speed kills while thinking speed limits are bad, which is really weird. So yeah, I'm in full agreement with you on reluctantly doing 80.

If I were to get ticketed for speeding while keeping up with the flow of traffic, I'd fight on the grounds of civil disobedience against an unjust law and attempt to prove that the 55 MPH speed limit is illegal. I would likely fail for a myriad of reasons, many invalid, all cloaked in the name of society's mantra that "speeding kills"

[agentsteel53]

well if I'm going to get a ticket - damned if I do and damned if I don't - then the least they can do is give me a ticket for going fast.

speeding does not kill.  going too fucking slowly because you're an idiot - that kills.

[J N Winkler]

NOTE TO OUR EUROPEAN MEMBERS
On a different note, I'm sure that speed differential on the German Autobahns can be much greater than 25mph (40kph).  So, how is it generally treated and how safe is it?

The real problem on the German Autobahnen has more to do with high truck percentages.  The EU mandates differential speed limits for HGVs and buses and modal split for freight is skewed much more toward roads rather than rail (at least by weight) than is the case in the USA.  So the real challenge is choosing a speed for overtaking trucks which is low enough to leave a margin of error for unexpected lane changing maneuvers but high enough not to unreasonably delay following vehicles which want to go even faster.  Road geometry tends not to force sharp changes in speed (except in some older mountainous stretches) because the Germans, unlike us, long ago abandoned the long-tangent, short-circular-curve approach to highway design.

Edit:  In regard to the question of speed differentials, the problem of badly timed lane changing maneuvers is mitigated by the generally higher standard of driver training, which leads directly to firm lane discipline.  However, overall the German safety record with respect to motorway fatalities is not all that much better than in the US.  According to IRTAD data we have 5.2 fatalities per billion vehicle km on the Interstates, followed by Germany with 4.5 on the Autobahnen, 2.5 on Swiss Autobahnen, and 2.2 on British motorways.  The guideline maximum speed on derestricted Autobahnen is 130 km/h, while Swiss motorways tend to have low speed limits and Britain has a 70 MPH general motorway speed limit which is widely flouted except in construction workzones with SPECS (average speed camera) enforcement (19% of drivers exceed 80 MPH).  Considering our level of physiographic variation, the fact that our Interstates include a substantial proportion of urban mileage, and the general lack of a culture of perspective evaluation of proposed highway alignments, I think we actually do quite well.

[Chris]

I've also read German driving lessons include driving 120 miles per hour on the Autobahn, so these people know how to handle high speed limits. Also; the cars that drive very fast (over 90 mph) tend to be more high-end passenger cars, like Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc. Those are built for speed and have excellent braking systems.

It should be noted that all European trucks are physically limited, usually somewhere between 50 and 55 mph, sometimes 60 mph. So you have trucks driving 55 mph, and passenger cars driving 100 mph.

Another note; most Germans do not actually drive 120 miles per hour all the time. My experience is most cars do not exceed ~100 mph, only a few drive really fast. There is also a large proportion of passenger cars that keeps to 80 - 85 mph.

[kj3400]

To be honest I really think it is a mystery why our nation posts speed limits if we routinely speed 10-15 mph over them. I mean whether it's a small street with a 25mph limit (where people do 35-40), a major arterial with 35-45 mph speed limit (where people do 45-60) or a freeway, people are going to do over the speed limit. Obviously we need to increase the speed limits, or give a range that you can do over it without getting a ticket. Keeping them the way they are is doing no one any favors, whether they're speeding with everyone else or doing the speed limit.

[Brandon]

It should be noted that all European trucks are physically limited, usually somewhere between 50 and 55 mph, sometimes 60 mph. So you have trucks driving 55 mph, and passenger cars driving 100 mph.

Now that sounds very harrowing.  I'm used to having no more than a 10mph speed differential between truck traffic and car traffic here.  In many places, there is no differential anymore.  If I were a trucker, I'd be a lot more nervous driving (speed differential-wise) in Europe over North America.

[Brandon]

To be honest I really think it is a mystery why our nation posts speed limits if we routinely speed 10-15 mph over them. I mean whether it's a small street with a 25mph limit (where people do 35-40), a major arterial with 35-45 mph speed limit (where people do 45-60) or a freeway, people are going to do over the speed limit. Obviously we need to increase the speed limits, or give a range that you can do over it without getting a ticket. Keeping them the way they are is doing no one any favors, whether they're speeding with everyone else or doing the speed limit.

I'm all in favor of rational speed limits for surface streets.  In fact, 25mph is fine for most residential street with driveways, on-street parking, kids playing, and maybe less than a lane of traffic between parked cars.  I'm also in favor of using engineering solutions to slow traffic down.  Roundabouts, alternating stop signs, on-street parking (including overnight) all seem to be sane ways to slow down traffic on residential streets.  I've seen a few streets where I think the limit could be lower (downtown Houghton, MI comes to mind on US-41 Nbd), and some where it should be higher (Naper Blvd in Naperville - speed limit 35, should be 40).  Most surface streets do however have well set limits in urban/suburban areas.

Now, in rural areas, I believe they could be slightly higher.  In Illinois, 60mph should be fine for most rural 2 lane highways.  There are few driveways, and cross streets are usually limited to one per mile.

As for freeways, here in Illinois, most of them (even within Chicago city limits) could handle 70mph easily, maybe 75mph.  There are a few I think sould be slower than that (Ryan local lanes, Kennedy rapid-fire ramps, etc).

Raising or lowering limits should only be done with engineering and environmental (i.e. pedestrians, parking, driveways) factors in mind, not the blind idiocy of a politician.

[agentsteel53]

Roundabouts, alternating stop signs, on-street parking (including overnight) all seem to be sane ways to slow down traffic on residential streets.

no, no, no.  one man's residential street is another man's through route.  the idea sounds nice in principle, until the community decides that every road within their jurisdiction needs to be turned into a low-traffic residential street.

I've had the misfortune of 15 or 20 consecutive four-way stop signs on a main arterial boulevard, simply because the city planners decided to fly in the face of reality, and declare that, by edict, a particular street is not going to be a through route anymore, dang it.

[kj3400]

But surely the community can't be that dumb to think no roads are major enough to escape traffic calming. If the street in question is quiet enough for you to be able to count the cars coming down (excluding cars that park on that street, and yes I have sat on my porch and watched cars) and not lose count, it should have methods to control speed.

[agentsteel53]

But surely the community can't be that dumb to think no roads are major enough to escape traffic calming.

never underestimate the dumbness of the herd.

[vdeane]

Indeed.  Within a mile of where I live, there are two major roads that should have four lanes.  They have two, because people consider them "residential streets" so the widening projects have been canceled.  This leads to odd lane endings and it being virtually impossible to make a left turn onto these roads without a traffic light.

Speed limits are under-posted all over New York.  I can only name a few freeways that should be posted lower than 65.  Most rural two-lane roads should be 60 or 65, but the max is 55 no matter what on non-freeways (mostly non-interstates as well; the only non-interstates with a 65 mph speed limit are NY 17, US 15, and parts of the Thruway).  NY 12 north of Alexandria Bay could easily be signed for 70 or even 80, especially outside of tourist season when there is no traffic of any kind.  Additionally, there are some 55 mph zones that are under a mile long and make no sense (NY 17 just west of I-87 and I-81 the mile south of the Thousands Island Bridge).

[corco]

Even 65 on the Thruway is absurdly low, at least upstate. The only ticket I ever got was going 82 in a 65 west of Schenectady, and it was a matter of me being in a car without cruise control and simply not paying attention to my speed. 82 felt completely natural on that stretch of road.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Roundabouts, alternating stop signs, on-street parking (including overnight) all seem to be sane ways to slow down traffic on residential streets.

no, no, no.  one man's residential street is another man's through route.  the idea sounds nice in principle, until the community decides that every road within their jurisdiction needs to be turned into a low-traffic residential street.

I've had the misfortune of 15 or 20 consecutive four-way stop signs on a main arterial boulevard, simply because the city planners decided to fly in the face of reality, and declare that, by edict, a particular street is not going to be a through route anymore, dang it.

Except you've deemed every route is a through route. If you think you can drive so damn fast, go jump the Snake River.

[agentsteel53]

Except you've deemed every route is a through route. If you think you can drive so damn fast, go jump the Snake River.

not correct.  Only if they are clearly is geographically instantiated as a through route - i.e. it links to the only road out of town on both ends.

[The Premier]

speeding does not kill.  going too fucking slowly because you're an idiot - that kills.

Agreed. I have mentioned in an earlier thread that speed itself doesn't kill. The DIFFERENCE in speed DOES KILL. In Ohio, there are most freeways that are signed 65 that can actually be increased to 70, some signed 55 and 60 that can actually be increased to 60 and 65, and the like.

Unless that happens, I'll drive the limit established on the sign.

[agentsteel53]

The DIFFERENCE in speed DOES KILL.

then don't go 60 when everyone else is doing 85.