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Telephone numbers

Started by Poiponen13, December 13, 2022, 11:08:59 AM

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Road Hog

For the uninitiated ....

2 - ABC
3 - DEF
4 - GHI
5 - JKL
6 - MNO
7 - PQRS
8 - TUV
9 - WXYZ

0 and 1 have no associated letters. Q and Z were omitted from early dials and touch buttons, but were added later.


Poiponen13

What about all-letter telephone numbers?

Poiponen13

US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.

Poiponen13

Quote from: US 89 on December 14, 2022, 12:44:52 AM
So Poiponen's ideal world consists of streets named for presidents, random word named streets with every fifth one some variant of Jade, absolutely no numbered streets at all, and now alphanumeric phone numbers (or is it phone alphanumbers?) and postal codes. I think a universe is gradually being built here...
Alanland phone numbers could be alphanumeric. And they could also have check digit.

SectorZ

Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?

I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?

kirbykart

Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?

I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?

Should use letters.

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
The zip code system actually has eleven digits: the base five digits that everyone is familiar with, then the plus-four code that you can include if you want, and then there's a two-digit "delivery point" code that is basically only ever used by USPS. Put it all together and you have an eleven-digit code that uniquely identifies every mailbox in the United States.

What possible change could even be needed, especially when there are loads of five-digit ZIPs that have yet to be allocated, and the eleven-digit codes allow for a million addresses in each ZIP?
Tested this theory when I was a kid, living in Rescue, VA. I had my father here in Colorado send a letter addressed to nothing more than 'Rescue VA 23424-0014", from [his zip+4]. It got to me. To be fair, Rescue is a small, non-delivery post office, but yeah, it does seem to work.

The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

SP Cook

Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.

Actually no.  If you look at the original map, understand the population at the time (1947, before the great migration to the South) and understand how dial telephones work(ed) you understand the system. 

The middle digit had to be a 0 or a 1.  0s were assigned to jurisdictions that had only one area code, 1s to places with multiple ones.  Look at the dial.  The smallest number of clicks thus went to New York City, 212 followed by LA 213, Chicage 312, etc.  The smallest single jurisdiction area code went to New Jersey 201, followed by DC 202.  the longest combinations went to places like west Texas, the Canadian Maritimes, Vermont and all those farm states in the Midwest. 

Note that no southern state, unless you count Texas, had more than one area code.  That is how few people lived in Florida, for example, before air conditioning and the wise use of fossil energy to power it. 

algorerhythms

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
The zip code system actually has eleven digits: the base five digits that everyone is familiar with, then the plus-four code that you can include if you want, and then there's a two-digit "delivery point" code that is basically only ever used by USPS. Put it all together and you have an eleven-digit code that uniquely identifies every mailbox in the United States.

What possible change could even be needed, especially when there are loads of five-digit ZIPs that have yet to be allocated, and the eleven-digit codes allow for a million addresses in each ZIP?
Tested this theory when I was a kid, living in Rescue, VA. I had my father here in Colorado send a letter addressed to nothing more than 'Rescue VA 23424-0014", from [his zip+4]. It got to me. To be fair, Rescue is a small, non-delivery post office, but yeah, it does seem to work.

The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
The post office is surprisingly good at finding where mail is supposed to go. While I was living in Norman, OK, the state of Maryland, in its infinite wisdom, once sent me a letter addressed to {my name}, {correct street number, misspelled street}, Norman's Island, MD {incorrect zip code that corresponds to a random small town in Texas}. The letter actually managed to arrive.

elsmere241

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.

The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another.  Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.

Poiponen13

Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?

I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?

Should use letters.
What does that mean?

MikeTheActuary

#61
Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.

The North American Numbering Plan contemplates this.

You may have noticed that there are no area codes with "9" in the second position.   This is to support a future expansion of the dialing plan to 11 or 12 digits.

The phone number +1 213 555 1212 could become +1 2913 555 1212 or +1 2913 n555 1212 (where n is a numeral from 2-9) when expansion is implemented.

EDIT:  Actually, it looks like that's only one of the proposals for NANP expansion.    More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Numbering_Plan_expansion

SectorZ

Quote from: elsmere241 on December 14, 2022, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.

The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another.  Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.

My former residence on a cul-de-sac with six homes, all had the same+4.

But... it was built in 2005 and we had a box at the beginning of the street for all of us. That likely makes it apples-to-oranges.

My current home, as a kid, the +4 actually changed when two new homes were built on my dead-end road (went down by 2). I do not know what that number is for any of my neighbor's homes.

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: elsmere241 on December 14, 2022, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.

The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another.  Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.
During a period of my life when I had a lot of time on my hands, I actually deciphered and worked out how to draw the 'old' barcodes, (back around 1994) and it was surprisingly simple to both parse, and actually draw.

We're not so different: when I was a kid, I would peruse the local phone book and memorize all the prefixes. That's pretty much out the window nowadays. But it evolved into me maintaining that list for the local Fido people, back in the diz-zay.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

frankenroad

Quote from: elsmere241 on December 14, 2022, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.

The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another.  Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.

It also has to do with the number of households.  I live in a condo building with 180 units and we have 6 different ZIP+4 codes just in our building.
2di's clinched: 44, 66, 68, 71, 72, 74, 78, 83, 84(east), 86(east), 88(east), 96

Highways I've lived on M-43, M-185, US-127

mgk920

Quote from: frankenroad on December 14, 2022, 03:52:38 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on December 14, 2022, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.

The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another.  Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.

It also has to do with the number of households.  I live in a condo building with 180 units and we have 6 different ZIP+4 codes just in our building.

The Appleton, WI ZIP code area has had its numbers reapportioned a few times within my lifetime, too.  It all started with the number '54911', as it was originally assigned at the beginning of ZIP Codes in about 1963, covering the entire area, to several in the 54911-54919 range today.

54911, 54913, 45914 and 54915 now cover the street addresses in the Appleton area, 54912 is for all Appleton, WI official Post Office boxes, 45916, 45917 and 54918 are unassigned/inactive, being held in reserve for future growth in the area, and 54919 is for all mail to the Thrivent HQ on the city's far north side.

Mike

formulanone


vdeane

Perhaps we should start using overly long numbers, like 01189998819991197253.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWc3WY3fuZU
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

1995hoo

I knew a fellow in college who wrote his phone number as 979-HATE, another guy whose number spelled 977-GEEK (he didn't mention that too often for some reason), and another fellow who noticed his spelled 9-SPERM-9.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 14, 2022, 11:06:48 AM
The North American Numbering Plan contemplates this.

You may have noticed that there are no area codes with "9" in the second position.   This is to support a future expansion of the dialing plan to 11 or 12 digits.

The phone number +1 213 555 1212 could become +1 2913 555 1212 or +1 2913 n555 1212 (where n is a numeral from 2-9) when expansion is implemented.

I'm not sure that the original North American Numbering Plan ever envisioned a fully programmable telephone environment.  My aunt was the developer of the computer network architecture (and changes) that were a prerequisite for the Baby Bell breakup (which became the official Local Area Transport Area map).  Back then, there were still too many hard-wired PBX and PABX switching systems to conceive a change to the numbering plan.  Nowadays, there is no particular reason that any LATA could not implement a complete renumbering.  Furthermore, it may already be possible to change the area codes assigned to certain LATAs (but there are probably some overseas networks that are still hardwired to route certain North American calls over different cables using the +1 IDD and the area code in the switching logic. 

LilianaUwU

"Volcano with no fire... Not volcano... Just mountain."
—Mr. Thwomp

My pronouns are she/her. Also, I'm an admin on the AARoads Wiki.

kirbykart

Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?

I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?

Should use letters.
What does that mean?

It's picking at your desire to use letters for everything because
Quote from: Poiponen13I like letters as identifiers very greatly.

Scott5114

Quote from: kirbykart on December 15, 2022, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?

I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?

Should use letters.
What does that mean?

It's picking at your desire to use letters for everything because
Quote from: Poiponen13I like letters as identifiers very greatly.

Shit, nobody tell him about Missouri.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 15, 2022, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?

I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?

Should use letters.
What does that mean?

It's picking at your desire to use letters for everything because
Quote from: Poiponen13I like letters as identifiers very greatly.

Shit, nobody tell him about Missouri.
Someone please poke the 'STOP POO" sign guy.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

kphoger

Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
What about all-letter telephone numbers?

So... you want telephones to have 36 dialing keys?  26 letters plus 10 numerals?  That sounds like an absolutely terrible idea.

Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.

As has already been explained, the numbers were assigned so that, when dialing a rotary telephone, major population centers required the lowest number of clicks.  That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.

Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2022, 09:01:27 PM
Perhaps we should start using overly long numbers, like 01189998819991197253.

International dialing isn't all that much better.  My best friend's phone number is saved in my contacts list as 01152#421081619 (one digit redacted for obvious reasons).

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 14, 2022, 10:26:50 PM

Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 14, 2022, 11:06:48 AM
The North American Numbering Plan contemplates this.

You may have noticed that there are no area codes with "9" in the second position.   This is to support a future expansion of the dialing plan to 11 or 12 digits.

The phone number +1 213 555 1212 could become +1 2913 555 1212 or +1 2913 n555 1212 (where n is a numeral from 2-9) when expansion is implemented.

I'm not sure that the original North American Numbering Plan ever envisioned a fully programmable telephone environment.  My aunt was the developer of the computer network architecture (and changes) that were a prerequisite for the Baby Bell breakup (which became the official Local Area Transport Area map).  Back then, there were still too many hard-wired PBX and PABX switching systems to conceive a change to the numbering plan.

He didn't claim that the original NANP contemplated it.  He said that the NANP contemplates it.  That is to say, when the list of viable area codes was expanded to include digits other than 0 and 1 in the middle position, they left out the number 9 with such a reason specifically in mind.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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