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Radical administrative changes

Started by Poiponen13, February 21, 2023, 11:18:10 AM

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kphoger

I started reading race into Joe's post, but then I realized he probably just meant suburban police departments and courts are more likely than they inner-city counterparts to actually catch and prosecute criminals–and that that's a deterrent factor.  I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I think he meant.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.


JayhawkCO

#51
Quote from: kphoger on February 22, 2023, 01:39:04 PM
I started reading race into Joe's post, but then I realized he probably just meant suburban police departments and courts are more likely than they inner-city counterparts to actually catch and prosecute criminals–and that that's a deterrent factor.  I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I think he meant.

I personally think the post was somehow being blind to the fact that distance is more a factor of "how far crime travels" than an arbitrary municipal boundary.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: kphoger on February 22, 2023, 01:39:04 PM
I started reading race into Joe's post, but then I realized he probably just meant suburban police departments and courts are more likely than they inner-city counterparts to actually catch and prosecute criminals–and that that's a deterrent factor.  I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I think he meant.

200 years of slavery and another 150 years of discrimination have created overwhelming levels of poverty for black Americans, so of course race plays a part anytime you discuss crime. Until people figure out that you can't reduce crime without reducing poverty, nothing's going to change.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

kphoger

Are there any US urban areas whose central city is more white than its suburbs?  My guess is no, buy maybe someone knows otherwise.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

JayhawkCO

If I had to stab at a guess, Seattle?

kphoger

Any answer would be of limited significance for the conversation, because historical racial issues played out differently in different cities.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: kphoger on February 22, 2023, 02:18:43 PM
Are there any US urban areas whose central city is more white than its suburbs?  My guess is no, buy maybe someone knows otherwise.
In many cities, the immediate downtown has been gentrified so it's pretty white, although the outlying neighborhoods are still heavily black/hispanic. Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Boston, are all like that.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

kphoger

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 02:38:19 PM
In many cities, the immediate downtown has been gentrified so it's pretty white, although the outlying neighborhoods are still heavily black/hispanic. Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Boston, are all like that.

Chicago's majority-white downtown area is contiguous with its majority-white north side.

https://bestneighborhood.org/race-in-chicago-il/
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: kphoger on February 22, 2023, 02:43:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 02:38:19 PM
In many cities, the immediate downtown has been gentrified so it's pretty white, although the outlying neighborhoods are still heavily black/hispanic. Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Boston, are all like that.

Chicago's majority-white downtown area is contiguous with its majority-white north side.

https://bestneighborhood.org/race-in-chicago-il/
I know, I was more talking about the west and south sides. New York is probably a better example.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

7/8

Quote from: kphoger on February 22, 2023, 02:18:43 PM
Are there any US urban areas whose central city is more white than its suburbs?  My guess is no, buy maybe someone knows otherwise.

I know it's not the US, but Toronto is more white than several of its suburbs.

According to the 2021 census, percentage of population with European ethnicity. These are the suburbs closest to Toronto:
- Burlington: 77.83%
- Whitby: 63.11%
- Vaughan: 58.5%
- Pickering: 47.06%
- Toronto: 43.5%
- Mississauga: 37.57%
- Ajax: 34.39%
- Richmond Hill: 33.32%
- Brampton: 18.93% (a significant change from 69.72% in 1996)
- Markham: 17.72%

JoePCool14

Sorry, I'm just getting back to this now. I can tell this is quickly going to spiral outside forum scope, so I'll do my best to address the responses to my earlier post.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 21, 2023, 03:41:15 PM
So, if you took Logan Square and made it its own city, so it was no longer Chicago, you are surmising that the crime rate would go down?

Yes, I do believe crime rate would go down, at least somewhat. The "City of Logan Square" could take a hardline stance against crime, forming their own police department that could have a reputation when it comes to dealing with robbery or muggings. But Logan Square would still be completely surrounded by the city of Chicago, so I won't pretend it's exactly that simple. Inner suburbs still see crime, after all.

Maybe I'm just uninformed on the real crime stats. But this is the perception I've gotten following Chicagoland crime over the years.

Quote from: kphoger on February 22, 2023, 01:39:04 PM
I started reading race into Joe's post, but then I realized he probably just meant suburban police departments and courts are more likely than they inner-city counterparts to actually catch and prosecute criminals—and that that's a deterrent factor.  I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I think he meant.

Correct. I'm referring to how the police departments and courts work comparing Chicago versus suburbs. When someone robs a bank at gunpoint out in the suburbs, it's a bigger story because it happens in the suburbs, leading it to receive more attention from the media and law enforcement, which leads to a greater chance of the criminal(s) being caught. I suppose over time it's turned into a chicken-or-egg situation though based on where certain demographics live (not by race, but by wealth).

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 22, 2023, 02:08:59 PM
200 years of slavery and another 150 years of discrimination have created overwhelming levels of poverty for black Americans, so of course race plays a part anytime you discuss crime. Until people figure out that you can't reduce crime without reducing poverty, nothing's going to change.

But letting hardened criminals loose back onto the streets doesn't help either. You can't just let crime slide because "it's justice for the past 300 years". At some point, individuals are responsible for their actions.




Why do I have no interest in being lumped in with the city? It's because I don't want to deal with being in a city of 3 million residents. Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, doesn't matter... race is irrelevant. It's about decentralization. It's easier to feel connected to what's going on in a suburb of 30,000-50,000 than an entire city of 3 million. Same way that I prefer states' rights versus federal government expansion.

City dwellers also have different priorities and opinions on all sorts of topics. Most relevant to AARoads, public transit versus private cars. And these are generally Whites that I'm referring to with this point.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

Roadgeekteen

JoePCool14, you are making your political views very noticeable. You aren't even trying to hide it.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

JayhawkCO

#62
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:30:03 PM
JoePCool14, you are making your political views very noticeable. You aren't even trying to hide it.

Eh, I think his post is fair. I don't agree with it, but it's no different than you being able to tell which way I lean politically. I just don't think that the police departments have anything to do with the opportunity for crime, and the number one statistic that is relavant is proximity to poverty. Texas having the death penalty doesn't have one bit of impact on murder rates vs. a state without the death penalty for example.




Top states by property crime per capita:
Louisiana
New Mexico
Colorado
Washington
South Carolina
Oklahoma
Oregon
Arkansas
Missouri
Tennessee
Utah

I don't see really any correlations between that list, so I don't think "being hard on crime" has the effect of lessening crime. Some of those states are certainly harder than others.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 22, 2023, 04:34:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:30:03 PM
JoePCool14, you are making your political views very noticeable. You aren't even trying to hide it.

Eh, I think his post is fair. I don't agree with it, but it's no different than you being able to tell which way I lean politically. I just don't think that the police departments have anything to do with the opportunity for crime, and the number one statistic that is relavant is proximity to poverty. Texas having the death penalty doesn't have one bit of impact on murder rates vs. a state without the death penalty for example.
I'm not saying that I have a problem with him believing the way he does, I'm just saying that he's making it very clear which way he leans, which he may or may not like.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:36:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 22, 2023, 04:34:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:30:03 PM
JoePCool14, you are making your political views very noticeable. You aren't even trying to hide it.

Eh, I think his post is fair. I don't agree with it, but it's no different than you being able to tell which way I lean politically. I just don't think that the police departments have anything to do with the opportunity for crime, and the number one statistic that is relavant is proximity to poverty. Texas having the death penalty doesn't have one bit of impact on murder rates vs. a state without the death penalty for example.
I'm not saying that I have a problem with him believing the way he does, I'm just saying that he's making it very clear which way he leans, which he may or may not like.

Fair enough.

hotdogPi

Those ten states all have roughly similar population (none big but also none lowest of the low), and none are dense.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

JoePCool14

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:30:03 PM
JoePCool14, you are making your political views very noticeable. You aren't even trying to hide it.
Yeah, I know. I had to respond to what was being said about my original post. But I'm gonna stop here, since like I said, it's out of scope for this forum.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged



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