New York State Thruway

[GenExpwy]

So, will they finally build an exit to that Indian tobacco shop? 

I'd use it if it were built. Makes it easier to get cheap rez gas!

Quite a few years ago, I saw a report on Channel 4 in Buffalo about the area's reservation gas stations. It seems that they didn't allow the county weights-and-measures inspectors to check the accuracy of their pumps (insert sovereignty rhetoric here), so WIVB did its own checking. This proved to be difficult, since the operators tended to chase away anyone with the type of calibrated container that w&m inspectors use.

The findings were that, while many pumps were accurate, there was one station (I don't remember which reservation) where the pumps were way off, and customers weren't getting anything like the bargain they thought. Caveat emptor.

[empirestate]

So, will they finally build an exit to that Indian tobacco shop? 

I'd use it if it were built. Makes it easier to get cheap rez gas!

They can build a service plaza with tobacco shop, gas station, and Taste NY store - all being just outside of FHWA jurisdiction.   

And whom should they name it after?

[hbelkins]

The other important thing here is the owner of the property is not obligated to apply the same rules to everyone. They can tell some people "get off, you're not welcome" while allowing other people to roam freely about.

That isn't entirely true. Try doing it to people with certain pigmentation, religious beliefs, genitalia, or sexual preference, and you have discriminated against a protected class.

[Great Lakes Roads]

Here is a map of the cashless tolling system and where each gantry will be located once it gets done at the end of 2020.

http://www.thruway.ny.gov/cashless/locations.html

As you can see, some of them will be on the highway (especially going through major cities like Albany and Syracuse) and some of them will be off the local exits between major cities.

[Beltway]

Ergo, it is perfectly consistent with property law for the Senecas to tell the state government they're not allowed to touch the road and call it trespassing if they do, while still permitting everyone else to drive through unimpeded.

The state government owns the road, as in the pavement, bridges and shoulders.  They built it and spent a lot of money doing so.  Even if someone else thinks they own the land underneath, they do not own or control the road.

[empirestate]

The other important thing here is the owner of the property is not obligated to apply the same rules to everyone. They can tell some people "get off, you're not welcome" while allowing other people to roam freely about.

That isn't entirely true. Try doing it to people with certain pigmentation, religious beliefs, genitalia, or sexual preference, and you have discriminated against a protected class.

Not unless you're a place of public accommodation (and in the case of sexual preference, not even then, in some areas). It's perfectly legal to order that gay black Jewish woman to get off your lawn.

[Rothman]

Ergo, it is perfectly consistent with property law for the Senecas to tell the state government they're not allowed to touch the road and call it trespassing if they do, while still permitting everyone else to drive through unimpeded.

The state government owns the road, as in the pavement, bridges and shoulders.  They built it and spent a lot of money doing so.  Even if someone else thinks they own the land underneath, they do not own or control the road.

Gee.  If only NY had you up here to explain the law to it.

The idea that an agreement is not legally required is patently absurd given the teams of lawyers on both NY's and the Nation's sides.  I think they know the law better than anyone on this forum.

[Duke87]

Ergo, it is perfectly consistent with property law for the Senecas to tell the state government they're not allowed to touch the road and call it trespassing if they do, while still permitting everyone else to drive through unimpeded.

The state government owns the road, as in the pavement, bridges and shoulders.  They built it and spent a lot of money doing so.  Even if someone else thinks they own the land underneath, they do not own or control the road.

But see, that's exactly the issue - the Senecas have been contesting the legal validity of the easement on which the road is built. If the easement is invalid, then the state illegally built the road across Seneca land and has no right to it.


Of course, this has always been political. The Senecas don't so much care about the road on its own. But it's what they make an stink about in order to protest other things the State of New York does that they don't like.

[Beltway]

Ergo, it is perfectly consistent with property law for the Senecas to tell the state government they're not allowed to touch the road and call it trespassing if they do, while still permitting everyone else to drive through unimpeded.

The state government owns the road, as in the pavement, bridges and shoulders.  They built it and spent a lot of money doing so.  Even if someone else thinks they own the land underneath, they do not own or control the road.

Gee.  If only NY had you up here to explain the law to it.
The idea that an agreement is not legally required is patently absurd given the teams of lawyers on both NY's and the Nation's sides.  I think they know the law better than anyone on this forum.

So what is the published legal opinion of the NY state attorney general's office on the matter?

Rather than disputing the comments of people posting here, how about finding out exactly what is the rendered law on the matter, and then posting it here?

[Alps]

Ergo, it is perfectly consistent with property law for the Senecas to tell the state government they're not allowed to touch the road and call it trespassing if they do, while still permitting everyone else to drive through unimpeded.

The state government owns the road, as in the pavement, bridges and shoulders.  They built it and spent a lot of money doing so.  Even if someone else thinks they own the land underneath, they do not own or control the road.

Gee.  If only NY had you up here to explain the law to it.
The idea that an agreement is not legally required is patently absurd given the teams of lawyers on both NY's and the Nation's sides.  I think they know the law better than anyone on this forum.

So what is the published legal opinion of the NY state attorney general's office on the matter?

Rather than disputing the comments of people posting here, how about finding out exactly what is the rendered law on the matter, and then posting it here?

Why should he have to do the work? Why don't you do it?

[Beltway]

Mercy, there -are- official news releases about this...

When Fully Complete Project will Include Full Depth Replacement and Concrete Repairs, Guiderail Replacement, and Additional Safety Enhancements

The New York State Thruway Authority today announced an agreement with the Seneca Nation of Indians to begin work to the approximately three-mile stretch of the New York State Thruway (I-90 eastbound and westbound) that runs through the Cattaraugus Territory.  Work on this critical infrastructure project between exit 57A (Eden — Angola) and exit 58 (Silver Creek) will begin tomorrow and will be completed in phases to properly rebuild the roadway.

http://www.thruway.ny.gov/news/pressrel/2019/09/2019-09-25-seneca-nation-agreement.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allegany Territory (Salamanca, NY) — The Seneca Nation of Indians announced today that it has reached an agreement with the New York State Thruway Authority regarding long-needed repairs on the portion of the New York State Thruway that crosses the Nation's Cattaraugus Territory.

"After multiple requests, the Seneca Nation was finally able to engage the New York State Thruway Authority in direct communication over the last several days regarding the deplorable condition of this stretch of Thruway,"  said President Rickey Armstrong, Sr.  "That direct communication resulted in a cooperative agreement, so that this work can finally begin."

https://sni.org/news-announcements/2019/09/seneca-nation-reaches-agreement-for-thruway-repairs-on-cattaraugus-territory/

[hbelkins]

Dueling press releases, instead of what usually happens in that both government agencies get together and issue a joint press release with contact information for both organizations. Or, frequently, engage a third-party communications consultant to send the release.

And the Seneca release indicates that they had to contact NYSTA about the condition of the road? Hadn't the NYSTA been trying to fix it but ran into objections from the Senecas? Or is this each side trying to spin the news to its own favor?

If the Senecas were stopping the NYSTA from working on the road, but felt it was in such bad shape, and are challenging the agreement that allowed the road to be built in the first place, why didn't they move forward and fix it themselves?

Who maintains other New York state routes that cross the reservation? (Presumably portions of US 20, US 219, I-86/NY 17, and other state routes I wouldn't know). NYSDOT or the Senecas?

[cu2010]

So, will they finally build an exit to that Indian tobacco shop? 

I'd use it if it were built. Makes it easier to get cheap rez gas!

Quite a few years ago, I saw a report on Channel 4 in Buffalo about the area's reservation gas stations. It seems that they didn't allow the county weights-and-measures inspectors to check the accuracy of their pumps (insert sovereignty rhetoric here), so WIVB did its own checking. This proved to be difficult, since the operators tended to chase away anyone with the type of calibrated container that w&m inspectors use.

The findings were that, while many pumps were accurate, there was one station (I don't remember which reservation) where the pumps were way off, and customers weren't getting anything like the bargain they thought. Caveat emptor.

There's also no standards as to gasoline quality, either.

I avoid rez gas like the plague. I don't care if it's cheap, it's not worth damaging my engine putting watered-down gas in it.

[Beltway]

Dueling press releases, instead of what usually happens in that both government agencies get together and issue a joint press release with contact information for both organizations. Or, frequently, engage a third-party communications consultant to send the release.

I hadn't thought about that when I posted them, but now I see they were both released on the same day, Sept. 25th.

[hbelkins]

Dueling press releases, instead of what usually happens in that both government agencies get together and issue a joint press release with contact information for both organizations. Or, frequently, engage a third-party communications consultant to send the release.

I hadn't thought about that when I posted them, but now I see they were both released on the same day, Sept. 25th.

Given my job, I tend to notice such things. When KYTC is doing some sort of joint project with one of our neighbors, the agencies work together on the publicity. And for the Louisville bridges project, they hired a communications consultant that did all the PR.

[Beltway]

Dueling press releases, instead of what usually happens in that both government agencies get together and issue a joint press release with contact information for both organizations. Or, frequently, engage a third-party communications consultant to send the release.

I hadn't thought about that when I posted them, but now I see they were both released on the same day, Sept. 25th.

Given my job, I tend to notice such things. When KYTC is doing some sort of joint project with one of our neighbors, the agencies work together on the publicity. And for the Louisville bridges project, they hired a communications consultant that did all the PR.

Yes, I thought about that when you posted that.  I haven't worked in a PIO, but I have noticed as I have tracked various major highway projects over the years how they manage the PR/PI.  Takes a high level of professionalism.

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge Project hired a communications consultant that did all the PR, and that also was a multi-DOT project (MD/VA/DC).

[vdeane]

If the Senecas were stopping the NYSTA from working on the road, but felt it was in such bad shape, and are challenging the agreement that allowed the road to be built in the first place, why didn't they move forward and fix it themselves?

Who maintains other New York state routes that cross the reservation? (Presumably portions of US 20, US 219, I-86/NY 17, and other state routes I wouldn't know). NYSDOT or the Senecas?

The whole issue is money.  They don't really want the Thruway gone; what they do want is for the Thruway to give them $1 for every single car to traverse that section of road since it opened.  Not surprisingly, their other major dispute is over whether they still need to give New York state a share of their casino revenue.  They also started a dispute over whether I-86 could be legally designated, since the agreement to build the Southern Tier Expressway says NY 17 and not I-86 (yes, really).  And the Senecas aren't the only nation to have monetary disputes with the state - down in the Hamptons, the Shinnecook nation is claiming that a transfer of land from a couple of years ago was invalid and should be part of their reservation, with the plan being to put billboards along Sunrise Highway.

Regarding the other roads, I know NY 417, I-86, a reference route near I-86 exit 23 (signed as Business US 219), and at least some of US 219 are NYSDOT.  Not sure of US 20 or the rest of US 219 off the top of my head, but probably NYSDOT as well.

[thenetwork]

So, will they finally build an exit to that Indian tobacco shop? 

I'd use it if it were built. Makes it easier to get cheap rez gas!

Quite a few years ago, I saw a report on Channel 4 in Buffalo about the area's reservation gas stations. It seems that they didn't allow the county weights-and-measures inspectors to check the accuracy of their pumps (insert sovereignty rhetoric here), so WIVB did its own checking. This proved to be difficult, since the operators tended to chase away anyone with the type of calibrated container that w&m inspectors use.

The findings were that, while many pumps were accurate, there was one station (I don't remember which reservation) where the pumps were way off, and customers weren't getting anything like the bargain they thought. Caveat emptor.

There's also no standards as to gasoline quality, either.

I avoid rez gas like the plague. I don't care if it's cheap, it's not worth damaging my engine putting watered-down gas in it.

I always try to avoid no-brand gas stations, although I DID stop at one of the Indian stations on US-20 a couple of times due to the price difference between the reservation and the nearby service plaza.  The price difference more than  paid for the tolls from PA to Niagara Falls.   

And I can see why it's hard to verify standards at the reservations ‐- they usually try to pump the gas for you.

[Sam]

Of course, once the conversion to cashless tolling on the Thruway is complete, the Senecas can build their own gantry and bill the passage fees directly. Won't even affect traffic flow.

[storm2k]

If the Senecas were stopping the NYSTA from working on the road, but felt it was in such bad shape, and are challenging the agreement that allowed the road to be built in the first place, why didn't they move forward and fix it themselves?

Who maintains other New York state routes that cross the reservation? (Presumably portions of US 20, US 219, I-86/NY 17, and other state routes I wouldn't know). NYSDOT or the Senecas?

The whole issue is money.  They don't really want the Thruway gone; what they do want is for the Thruway to give them $1 for every single car to traverse that section of road since it opened.  Not surprisingly, their other major dispute is over whether they still need to give New York state a share of their casino revenue.  They also started a dispute over whether I-86 could be legally designated, since the agreement to build the Southern Tier Expressway says NY 17 and not I-86 (yes, really).  And the Senecas aren't the only nation to have monetary disputes with the state - down in the Hamptons, the Shinnecook nation is claiming that a transfer of land from a couple of years ago was invalid and should be part of their reservation, with the plan being to put billboards along Sunrise Highway.

Regarding the other roads, I know NY 417, I-86, a reference route near I-86 exit 23 (signed as Business US 219), and at least some of US 219 are NYSDOT.  Not sure of US 20 or the rest of US 219 off the top of my head, but probably NYSDOT as well.

I remember traveling up 81 some years ago near Onondaga Nation and there were some homemade billboards with some... "strong" local thoughts about them. I don't know if any of 81 traverses their land, but I know that local relations with various tribal lands is fraught at best.

[vdeane]

I-81 does traverse the Onondaga reservation.  Exit 16 is inside it.

[webny99]

Here is a map of the cashless tolling system and where each gantry will be located once it gets done at the end of 2020.
http://www.thruway.ny.gov/cashless/locations.html
As you can see, some of them will be on the highway (especially going through major cities like Albany and Syracuse) and some of them will be off the local exits between major cities.

Wait a second.

So the interchanges slated for full toll booth removal aren't going to have gantries, and the gantries for those interchanges will instead be located between exits along the Thruway itself?

That seems like kind of a funny system. I would think either all the gantries would at the interchanges (near where the toll booths currently are), or there would be one gantry between every exit. Not a mix of both systems.

One advantage of having the gantries between interchanges is that it leaves the door open to future redesign of the interchanges.
But again, I would think that would be system-wide instead of only at the freeway-freeway interchanges.

[webny99]

In other news, the Thruway was terrible yesterday afternoon (thanks to the Bills game...)

I remain convinced that Rochester-Buffalo is absolutely the largest migration between cities in the US for a pro sports game. You have to see it to believe it. Volumes must be double or more what they usually are on that Williamsville to LeRoy segment. It is crazy.

[Beltway]

I remain convinced that Rochester-Buffalo is absolutely the largest migration between cities in the US for a pro sports game. You have to see it to believe it. Volumes must be double or more what they usually are on that Williamsville to LeRoy segment. It is crazy.

Lots of Bills fans in Canada as well, mainly from around Toronto.

[webny99]

I remain convinced that Rochester-Buffalo is absolutely the largest migration between cities in the US for a pro sports game. You have to see it to believe it. Volumes must be double or more what they usually are on that Williamsville to LeRoy segment. It is crazy.

Lots of Bills fans in Canada as well, mainly from around Toronto.

That's true, but in terms of sheer volume (at least attending the actual games), Rochester wins. The border is a pretty big deterrent from attending in person.