Defunct restaurant chains and retailers

[Scott5114]

For me, I can go to a chain place, say Applebee's, and get nothing that I can't make at home for the same price or cheaper. I would much rather go to a local Asian spot where I'm getting unique flavors, larger portions, I'm supporting local, and it still costs the same price or less.

Yes, that is the benefit of living in a larger city with a good food scene—in Las Vegas there's no reason for me to go to Olive Garden, when I can go to Giuseppe's and get better food for cheaper, and be able to do it at 3am if I want, to boot. And I have similar options for just about every kind of cuisine that exists.

The chain places make more sense in places like Oklahoma City, but even in smaller markets like that the local options are more developed than they were in, say, 2010, even with the pandemic.

[SEWIGuy]

For me, I can go to a chain place, say Applebee's, and get nothing that I can't make at home for the same price or cheaper. I would much rather go to a local Asian spot where I'm getting unique flavors, larger portions, I'm supporting local, and it still costs the same price or less.

Yes, that is the benefit of living in a larger city with a good food scene—in Las Vegas there's no reason for me to go to Olive Garden, when I can go to Giuseppe's and get better food for cheaper, and be able to do it at 3am if I want, to boot. And I have similar options for just about every kind of cuisine that exists.

The chain places make more sense in places like Oklahoma City, but even in smaller markets like that the local options are more developed than they were in, say, 2010, even with the pandemic.

Oh I guaranty you that there are better places than the chains in OKC. I live in the Quad Cities and there are about two dozen places I would go before stepping foot in an Applebees or Olive Garden.

[hotdogPi]

Have we all become Rothman now?

[Rothman]

Have we all become Rothman now?

'Bout #$%^ time.

[SEWIGuy]

So I am trying to figure out why I now feel this way about casual dining chains. Is it because...

**I am older and have a better understanding of good food? I was hyped when Applebees came to Terre Haute, Indiana in the mid 90s. I thought the vibe was different and the food was good. Was I just young and dumb?

**That the "casual dining experience" has been co-opted by local restaurants and they do it better? (Casual dining experience: full bar to grab a drink beforehand, sit down meal with wait staff, not super expensive, etc.)

**The chains have all just gone to sh*t?

Or a combination of the above?

[JayhawkCO]

So I am trying to figure out why I now feel this way about casual dining chains. Is it because...

**I am older and have a better understanding of good food? I was hyped when Applebees came to Terre Haute, Indiana in the mid 90s. I thought the vibe was different and the food was good. Was I just young and dumb?

**That the "casual dining experience" has been co-opted by local restaurants and they do it better? (Casual dining experience: full bar to grab a drink beforehand, sit down meal with wait staff, not super expensive, etc.)

**The chains have all just gone to sh*t?

Or a combination of the above?

The restaurant industry, in general, has gotten worse since 2020. A lot of lifers in the industry, myself included, had to jump to another career. Even when we were doing the job with shitty pay, terrible hours, angry guests, etc., we still loved it. But once you step outside and get better benefits and a wholly more positive work/life balance, you don't want to ever go back. (I do bartend one night a week just because I have a very cushy, profitable gig.)

That said, with regards to chain restaurants, I think as you get older and you've tried many things, you can understand quality more. Sometimes it's not even about tasting good. McDonald's tastes good, but it isn't "quality", and you then prefer to spend your hard-earned money on something that has a little more substance. As far as the experience is concerned, a lot of chains have completely robotic service, and it likely isn't very good even when performed to the company's standards. Let's be honest, the restaurant industry is not a lightning rod for geniuses. So the companies' training methods have to cater to the lowest common denominator. Let me give an example.

When I was the AGM at McCormick and Schmick's in Kansas City, Landry's (the largest restaurant group in the world) bought us and immediately imposed their standards. No longer could you say ANYTHING during your initial visit to the table other than "Good afternoon/evening. May I interest you in a cocktail or glass of wine?", leaving absolutely no room for nuance whatsoever, nor any personalization of service. Even if you got a table of 18-year-olds, you were supposed to say that. Corporate HAS to impose those standards that because somewhere, some McCormick's manager hired some numb nuts to be a server that couldn't even figure out that when you greet a table, you should offer them a drink, and not in a way such as "Want somethin' to drink?".

That's why after working as a manager in chain restaurants (albeit upscale chains), I got the hell out and went to chef-owned places. It was sometimes more chaotic. Chefs aren't always known for being stable. But either way we were allowed to provide more elevated service because we chose the rules. We also had a better hiring pool since people want to work at the "cool place" more than they want to work at Chili's.

[kphoger]

Have we all become Rothman now?

Nope.  I'm still holding out.

So I am trying to figure out why I now feel this way about casual dining chains. Is it because...

**I am older and have a better understanding of good food? I was hyped when Applebees came to Terre Haute, Indiana in the mid 90s. I thought the vibe was different and the food was good. Was I just young and dumb?

**That the "casual dining experience" has been co-opted by local restaurants and they do it better? (Casual dining experience: full bar to grab a drink beforehand, sit down meal with wait staff, not super expensive, etc.)

**The chains have all just gone to sh*t?

Or a combination of the above?

I have a fond memory of going to Applebee's for the first time.  This was 1993, which I remember because we could see the flood waters lapping at the shoulder of I-70 in Missouri during that trip.  Anyway, my dad was taking a sabbatical at a seminary in Saint Louis, and I tagged along while he was there and stayed in the dorm with him.  One evening, someone mentioned Applebee's, so of course then about four seminarians plus my dad and I just had to go drive over there and get some milkshakes and whatnot.  (You can't mention food to a bunch of college guys after dark and then not go!)

Now, to me, Applebee's is just another restaurant—although I should say that their French fries are some of my favorites anywhere.  To me, I think there are a couple of things going on:

1.  Either the novelty of Applebee's back then made it seem better than it really was, or else the ubiquity of it nowadays makes it seem worse than it really is.  Both phenomena are probably real.

2.  As Applebee's has become a mainstay of the landscape, they've gradually let their menu become less interesting.  Actually, now that I've said that, and I'm looking back at 1990s menus, I realize it isn't actually true.  So forget it, just stick with (1).

I think as you get older and you've tried many things, you can understand quality more. Sometimes it's not even about tasting good. McDonald's tastes good, but it isn't "quality", and you then prefer to spend your hard-earned money on something that has a little more substance.

McDonald's isn't even super cheap anymore.  Back when it was, you'd go there to save money.  But now that most any other place barely costs any more than McDonald's does, why not go somewhere else?

[JayhawkCO]

McDonald's isn't even super cheap anymore.  Back when it was, you'd go there to save money.  But now that most any other place barely costs any more than McDonald's does, why not go somewhere else?

100%. A double quarter pounder meal is something like $14 with tax. I'd much rather get Paad Thai at the place next door for the same price.

[kphoger]

McDonald's isn't even super cheap anymore.  Back when it was, you'd go there to save money.  But now that most any other place barely costs any more than McDonald's does, why not go somewhere else?

100%. A double quarter pounder meal is something like $14 with tax. I'd much rather get Paad Thai at the place next door for the same price.

So many times, my wife has suggested taking the family to eat somewhere, and I tell her I'd rather go somewhere cheaper, and then she points out that we'd only save a few dollars by doing that.  I swear, if it weren't for Taco Bell, there wouldn't be any truly cheap fast food chains left...

[jeffandnicole]

McDonald's isn't even super cheap anymore.  Back when it was, you'd go there to save money.  But now that most any other place barely costs any more than McDonald's does, why not go somewhere else?

100%. A double quarter pounder meal is something like $14 with tax. I'd much rather get Paad Thai at the place next door for the same price.

I mean, sure, if you want to pick the most expensive meal offering for comparison, yeah it's likely going to be pricey compared to a single entree dish at another place when you exclude a drink, possible side dish and possible tip.

You can also get a basic cheeseburger for $2.99 or a value meal deal for about $5.00, but that goes against the narrative that McDonalds sucks.

[JayhawkCO]

McDonald's isn't even super cheap anymore.  Back when it was, you'd go there to save money.  But now that most any other place barely costs any more than McDonald's does, why not go somewhere else?

100%. A double quarter pounder meal is something like $14 with tax. I'd much rather get Paad Thai at the place next door for the same price.

I mean, sure, if you want to pick the most expensive meal offering for comparison, yeah it's likely going to be pricey compared to a single entree dish at another place when you exclude a drink, possible side dish and possible tip.

You can also get a basic cheeseburger for $2.99 or a value meal deal for about $5.00, but that goes against the narrative that McDonalds sucks.

Or, I'm 6'4" with an incredibly high metabolism. A basic cheeseburger is a snack, not a meal.

[kphoger]

You can also get a basic cheeseburger for $2.99 or a value meal deal for about $5.00, but that goes against the narrative that McDonalds sucks.

Except that a McDonald's basic cheeseburger is crap on a bun, and every other chain's basic burger knocks it out of the park.  The only reason I ever used to get them was that they were cheap.

Besides which, that same cheeseburger cost 99¢ back in 2002, which is $1.78 when adjusted for inflation.  If they're $2.99 now, then their price has gone up by more than two-thirds.

[JayhawkCO]

I swear, if it weren't for Taco Bell, there wouldn't be any truly cheap fast food chains left...

I don't think Taco Bell is particularly cheap now either. We're a loooooong way from the $0.59/$0.79/$0.99 menu. Even without a drink, I don't easily get away from Taco Bell spending less than $10 to fill me up.

[kphoger]

I don't think Taco Bell is particularly cheap now either. We're a loooooong way from the $0.59/$0.79/$0.99 menu. Even without a drink, I don't easily get away from Taco Bell spending less than $10 to fill me up.

It's probably because we order different things.

My go-to is a bean burrito with rice added, and that's still only about $2.50.

Or our whole family can eat and be satisfied with a 12-pack of taco supremes plus a couple of quesadillas.

That's all pretty cheap, especially when you consider that we usually get it to take home and therefore don't order drinks.

[JayhawkCO]

I don't think Taco Bell is particularly cheap now either. We're a loooooong way from the $0.59/$0.79/$0.99 menu. Even without a drink, I don't easily get away from Taco Bell spending less than $10 to fill me up.

It's probably because we order different things.

My go-to is a bean burrito with rice added, and that's still only about $2.50.

Or our whole family can eat and be satisfied with a 12-pack of taco supremes plus a couple of quesadillas.

That's all pretty cheap, especially when you consider that we usually get it to take home and therefore don't order drinks.

I'm definitely a bean burrito stan. But if you do any of the "fancier" stuff - Crunchwrap Supreme, Grilled Stuffed Burrito, etc., and it adds up quickly.

[thenetwork]

I wonder how many owners/managers of Food Trucks were former restaurant employees?

My guess is that for a small investment, many of these people saw that they could schedule their own hours, keep all the profits, pay for their own level of benefits, and for some trucks that like to move around, they go where the crowds are (festivals, concerts, food truck "food courts" and setting up where food choices don't exist).

That could also be why some restaurants don't have a constant "short list" of replacements on file anymore -- there is too much BS that goes on in these brick and mortar restaurants.

[jeffandnicole]

I wonder how many owners/managers of Food Trucks were former restaurant employees?

My guess is that for a small investment, many of these people saw that they could schedule their own hours, keep all the profits, pay for their own level of benefits, and for some trucks that like to move around, they go where the crowds are (festivals, concerts, food truck "food courts" and setting up where food choices don't exist).

I think you're greatly underestimating the cost of starting up and operating a food truck.  By many estimates, it's a $75k - $100k investment.  Rarely can the food truck operate on just the owner doing everything - there's at minimum a person at the window and a cook.  Your operating time is limited to the main meal time, so that's often 1 hour, maybe 2.  You'll need time to drive there, set up and tear down, and drive home.  And that doesn't include the time spent to prepare for the day beforehand.

Locations vary on what permits are needed.  You need to sign up with those festivals and concerts, and quite often they look for variety.  They have an upfront charge to let you in to that concert. If you sell burgers, and there's already a food truck selling burgers, you're probably not going to get in.  You need to get to the festival quite early, and you're not leaving until most of the festival traffic has left.  If you run out of product, you ain't making a run to the convenience store for more.

Your food truck will need maintenance. It'll need fuel. You'll need to get rid of your waste somehow.  You may be subject to health inspections each time you set up. 

I wish there was an easy way to make money.  You highlighted some positive aspects of running a food truck, but don't think it's a small investment.

[Scott5114]

You can also get a basic cheeseburger for $2.99 or a value meal deal for about $5.00, but that goes against the narrative that McDonalds sucks.

The value meal deal is nice but it gives you the same size fries and drink that a kid's meal gets. I'm not eight years old so that's inadequate. What I will do sometimes is order that and a second kid's size fry, which ends up making it around $8 or so, which is still a dollar or two cheaper than a "normal" meal.

[Dirt Roads]

McDonald's isn't even super cheap anymore.  Back when it was, you'd go there to save money.  But now that most any other place barely costs any more than McDonald's does, why not go somewhere else?

100%. A double quarter pounder meal is something like $14 with tax. I'd much rather get Paad Thai at the place next door for the same price.

I mean, sure, if you want to pick the most expensive meal offering for comparison, yeah it's likely going to be pricey compared to a single entree dish at another place when you exclude a drink, possible side dish and possible tip.

You can also get a basic cheeseburger for $2.99 or a value meal deal for about $5.00, but that goes against the narrative that McDonalds sucks.

Or, I'm 6'4" with an incredibly high metabolism. A basic cheeseburger is a snack, not a meal.

All more the reason that White Castle and Krystal Burger still sell them 10 at time.  Of course, it was much better when Burger Chef sold a 10-pack of basic cheeseburgers for the same price that those guys flipped out sliders.  (And about once a year, McDonalds would shuck them out for 20 cents each and you could just go ahead and order 10 at a time).

[formulanone]

Have we all become Rothman now?

Nope.  I'm still holding out.

So I am trying to figure out why I now feel this way about casual dining chains. Is it because...

**I am older and have a better understanding of good food? I was hyped when Applebees came to Terre Haute, Indiana in the mid 90s. I thought the vibe was different and the food was good. Was I just young and dumb?

**That the "casual dining experience" has been co-opted by local restaurants and they do it better? (Casual dining experience: full bar to grab a drink beforehand, sit down meal with wait staff, not super expensive, etc.)

**The chains have all just gone to sh*t?

Or a combination of the above?

I have a fond memory of going to Applebee's for the first time.  This was 1993, which I remember because we could see the flood waters lapping at the shoulder of I-70 in Missouri during that trip.  Anyway, my dad was taking a sabbatical at a seminary in Saint Louis, and I tagged along while he was there and stayed in the dorm with him.  One evening, someone mentioned Applebee's, so of course then about four seminarians plus my dad and I just had to go drive over there and get some milkshakes and whatnot.  (You can't mention food to a bunch of college guys after dark and then not go!)

Now, to me, Applebee's is just another restaurant—although I should say that their French fries are some of my favorites anywhere.  To me, I think there are a couple of things going on:

1.  Either the novelty of Applebee's back then made it seem better than it really was, or else the ubiquity of it nowadays makes it seem worse than it really is.  Both phenomena are probably real.

2.  As Applebee's has become a mainstay of the landscape, they've gradually let their menu become less interesting.  Actually, now that I've said that, and I'm looking back at 1990s menus, I realize it isn't actually true.  So forget it, just stick with (1).

I think as you get older and you've tried many things, you can understand quality more. Sometimes it's not even about tasting good. McDonald's tastes good, but it isn't "quality", and you then prefer to spend your hard-earned money on something that has a little more substance.

McDonald's isn't even super cheap anymore.  Back when it was, you'd go there to save money.  But now that most any other place barely costs any more than McDonald's does, why not go somewhere else?

My wife and I used to go to Applebee's about 4-5 times a year; and we'd usually order the same thing: the chicken wrap, or maybe a big burger. 25-odd years ago, the "wrap" was not a common item at every restaurant, it was fairly cheap, and you could get lightly-breaded "onion peels" with it (another item that seemed to have no competition).

They changed the menu, because sometimes you have to stay relevant. The wrap stayed on the menu. But the prices went up, and service was iffy at times. We hadn't been to one together in about 15-16 years (though I stopped at one which was the only non-fast food in a small town on a Sunday night). Worst of all, the peels were off the menu, so why bother? Every place serves French Fries, some better than others.

Last year, a family member gave us a $25 gift card because they were cleaning up and found it, but wasn't interested in going. So we went and had the same chicken wrap and fries...and it was pretty much exactly the same as I remember it, right down to the repository of 1980s music. It was a little nostalgic but nothing more.

Just like finding your favorite book or movie series when you're younger and then experiencing hundreds of others is always going to change your mind a little bit. So restaurants are no different. We also pick up on little details and tells as the years go on, and our palette expands as the universe does. Whereas we probably didn't worry as much about not getting a refill once, there's a feeling that society is crumbling when it happens a second time because the server wasn't as telepathic as Sandy and Bibi were back in '99, and it also might be their first week on the job.

To get that same effect, we'll just go to Chili's when nobody can decide on anything, and with confidence everyone will find multiple options. They're very consistent in terms of food and service, if not the locally-unique experience.

I still want someone to make those little onion peels and dipping sauce as a side item.

[roadman65]

I see the Macy's that occupy's the old Wanamaker Store in Philadelphia is going to close.

I see social media posts showing the pipe organ within the store being played constantly as the organ won't ever be played again once the store shuts.

The organ is a key feature of the original Wanamaker Store that entertained shoppers for decades.

[english si]

You can also get a basic cheeseburger for $2.99 or a value meal deal for about $5.00, but that goes against the narrative that McDonalds sucks.

$2.99 for a cheeseburger? That's nearly twice the price (£1.39) of a UK one!

[GCrites]

Beef in the U.S. has really gone up in price. So much so that smaller farms that didn't have beef cattle for years or even decades have begun raising them again.

[roadman65]

You can also get a basic cheeseburger for $2.99 or a value meal deal for about $5.00, but that goes against the narrative that McDonalds sucks.

$2.99 for a cheeseburger? That's nearly twice the price (£1.39) of a UK one!

MacDonalds also sucks because they made their stores look like boxes.

Someone posted on social media what McDonald's looked like in the nineties verses now to show how fast food now sucks changing the unique profiles of each business to an all over common aesthetic building.

Plus the removal of the playland outside that kids can have fun with once upon a time.

[Road Hog]

I once dated a girl who worked at Applebee's and she gave me the skinny. It's ALL pre-prepped and nuked.

Armed with this knowledge, when my store held a Christmas party at Applebees, I ordered nachos because you don't nuke nachos. Maybe the toppings, but not the chips.