Old signing practices on new signs

[MarkF]

This evening I noticed two somewhat recent signs on I-405 south that pointed to old Caltrans signing practices.  Images are from a dashcam at night, so some blurring.

This one at the Western Ave exit where there is a down arrow for Normandie, the next exit.  This was normal CalTrans signing in the 1960s, but most of the down arrows for the next exit were covered with greenout in the 1980s.  My guess is that for the new sign, the sign specs for the old sign were taken and not reviewed, so the arrow came back.  And due to changing from a gore point butterfly sign to a side mount, the arrow is now over the #3 lane instead of the right lane:


And one showing freeway names, something de-emphasized for the past few decades:

This one also puts the name in front of the shield, also common in the 1960s.

[SeriesE]

D7 does lots of in-place replacements.

[Occidental Tourist]

The recent sign replacements on the 605 and the 91 in District 7 are straight replacements of old signs with no attempt to conform to the California MUTCD.  Examples include no cardinal directions on some replacement pull-through signs, failure to realign pull-through arrows to match up with restriping of lanes after HOV lane additions. 

Some signs adopted the old designs but had alterations in the kerneling that actually made the signs worse.  Not sure why the did that.  For example, pull-throughs on the 91 east at the 605 actually moved route shield closer to the destination city, resulting in crowded spacing, and some of the exit only tabs were moved to closer to the cardinal directions above them.

And for the Pioneer Blvd exit off the 91, they left the city (Artesia) on the advance signs and the gore signs in both directions.

Further, the replacement signs on the 605 at the 91 and the 91 at the 605 use uniform-sized capital letters for cardinal directions, but down the freeway on the 91 at the 710, the replacement signs use first letter is larger cardinal directions.

[mrsman]

I personally have no problem with this because I think the old signing practices in California were better.

I don't subscribe to the notion that including a city on a Street exit is too much information or confusing to drivers.  However I do believe it's important that the arrows point to the correct Lane. 

Nexus 5X

[JUHSD-rvalencia]

District 4 in my area seems they've recently used FHWA Series D "M" (bold) with mismatching retroreflectivity and Telespar breakaway square metal posts instead of the usual wood ones on some replacement signs like for example I-280 in Daly City and the exit numbers, which brings to my attention that has Caltrans' quality of attention to detail gone bonkers? I've also seen them use the FHWA-style large double post exit sign on the junction between US 101 and CA 84 in Menlo Park. To be honest, some people could do better on attention to detail like me. It kinda seems ugly when the visual appeal has gone negative than before, and that it would have violated the technical guidelines of the California MUTCD.

[roadfro]

^ I think we've discussed in another thread on this board that Caltrans has started using the FHWA exit sign in the gore at some locations.

[M3100]

This one at the Western Ave exit where there is a down arrow for Normandie, the next exit.  This was normal CalTrans signing in the 1960s, but most of the down arrows for the next exit were covered with greenout in the 1980s. 

This BGS is right in my territory.  And thanks for pointing out the greenout patches were basically decommissioned "lane arrows", so to speak.  (A few here and there were for decommissioned route numbers).  I recall seeing the patches but did not realize there were arrows lurking underneath.

[mrsman]

This one at the Western Ave exit where there is a down arrow for Normandie, the next exit.  This was normal CalTrans signing in the 1960s, but most of the down arrows for the next exit were covered with greenout in the 1980s. 

This BGS is right in my territory.  And thanks for pointing out the greenout patches were basically decommissioned "lane arrows", so to speak.  (A few here and there were for decommissioned route numbers).  I recall seeing the patches but did not realize there were arrows lurking underneath.

It's a good idea to cover up the arrows.  Other then at exits, arrows are confusing unless they point out a specific lane configuration.  The normal assumption when driving is that the right lane will be for exits, but it won't necessarily force me to exit.  When that is the case, no arrows are needed or wanted, except an upward arrow at the gore point.  (I don't want any arrow telling me that Normandie is the next exit in half a mile.)

Not used too widely in California, but arrow per lane (APL) signs do make it easier to follow arrows.  They work well at places where 2 highways split, a functional Y. 

Like this:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTGepOKu.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aaroads.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D14459.50&tbnid=TMKUIK6fahEdbM&vet=12ahUKEwj-sIuMpYbqAhXHT98KHaDCAooQMygEegUIARDOAQ..i&docid=V_-gJTnu5OAr1M&w=1600&h=1200&itg=1&q=arrow%20per%20lane%20signs%20california&ved=2ahUKEwj-sIuMpYbqAhXHT98KHaDCAooQMygEegUIARDOAQ



The problem is that it is really hard to make such signs work at typical freeway to freeway interchanges that we see in CA:

Lanes 1,2,3 stay on Fwy A
Lane 4 on Fwy A or exit onto Fwy B northbound
Lane 5 Fwy B northbound or Fwy B southbound

Both Fwy B northbound and Fwy B southbound are right turns off the main highway.  How do you distinguish them on an APL sign?  (No good way)

[wanderer2575]

And one showing freeway names, something de-emphasized for the past few decades:

This one also puts the name in front of the shield, also common in the 1960s.

If a cardinal direction and a control street/city are shown on the same line, I think it's good design practice to put one to the left of the route shield and one to the right.  That breaks up the text and makes clear that the direction refers to the route and is not part of the street name.

Michigan also has mostly gotten rid of freeway names on BGSs, but a few exceptions have popped up in the past decade or so.

[jtespi]

In case you weren't aware, CalTrans did a minor update to the iconic "I-10 west Indio and Other Desert Cities" sign a few years ago. Google Street View shows that they finally capitalized the O in "Other Desert Cities."

Does anyone know the actual story from CalTrans on why they named/worded the sign like that? Anytime I search for info about it online, I just get a bunch of anecdotes of people seeing the sign. I'd really like to hear directly from the source (CalTrans) about why they worded the sign like that.

[Scott5114]

I wonder if the transition to exit tabs will mean that we'll start seeing old 1960s layouts coming back again (since there will be no need to rearrange the text to accommodate the exit number inset).