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Author Topic: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction  (Read 46524 times)

Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2021, 07:36:13 PM »

Though no funding is currently identified, OKDOT plans to work with the OTA to build a new interchange along the Muskogee Turnpike near Coweta.

https://sh-51-poe.hub.arcgis.com/pages/86b0627a812f4fcb92c5a0daa586a51e

I never knew that turnpike was designated as SH-351. I recall seeing a poster on this board mention no OK turnpikes were signed.
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Scott5114

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2021, 08:42:50 PM »

I never knew that turnpike was designated as SH-351. I recall seeing a poster on this board mention no OK turnpikes were signed.

It wasn't until 2014. At the same time, the Creek Turnpike was designated SH-364. I-44 covers three turnpikes, and US-412 covers two.  Besides 351 and 364, there are no other turnpikes carrying SH numbers. (That is to say, the following turnpikes lack numbers: Chickasaw, Indian Nation, Kickapoo, Kilpatrick, and the Bailey and Cimarron spurs.)
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2021, 09:48:19 PM »

I never knew that turnpike was designated as SH-351. I recall seeing a poster on this board mention no OK turnpikes were signed.

It wasn't until 2014. At the same time, the Creek Turnpike was designated SH-364. I-44 covers three turnpikes, and US-412 covers two.  Besides 351 and 364, there are no other turnpikes carrying SH numbers. (That is to say, the following turnpikes lack numbers: Chickasaw, Indian Nation, Kickapoo, Kilpatrick, and the Bailey and Cimarron spurs.)
I knew about I-44 but for some reason US-412 completely slipped my mind even after discussing removing the tolls on it.
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In_Correct

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2021, 10:40:53 PM »

Keep Tolls.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2021, 11:31:34 PM »

Keep Tolls.
Tulsa needs at least one toll free interstate route.
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In_Correct

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2021, 11:48:51 PM »

Keep Tolls.
Tulsa needs at least one toll free interstate route.

That one can be an extension of Interstate 45.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #106 on: June 10, 2021, 12:02:24 AM »

Keep Tolls.
Tulsa needs at least one toll free interstate route.

That one can be an extension of Interstate 45.
If it’s ever built. Oklahoma is not exactly flush with cash. Hell, I’d be happy just to see OKDOT place “future” interstate markers at this point.
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US 89

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #107 on: June 10, 2021, 12:31:03 AM »

I never knew that turnpike was designated as SH-351. I recall seeing a poster on this board mention no OK turnpikes were signed.

It wasn't until 2014. At the same time, the Creek Turnpike was designated SH-364. I-44 covers three turnpikes, and US-412 covers two.  Besides 351 and 364, there are no other turnpikes carrying SH numbers. (That is to say, the following turnpikes lack numbers: Chickasaw, Indian Nation, Kickapoo, Kilpatrick, and the Bailey and Cimarron spurs.)

Don’t forget the under-construction Gilcrease Turnpike, which is already designated SH-344.

Scott5114

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #108 on: June 10, 2021, 07:02:46 PM »

I'm going through the ODOT standard drawings (yes! ODOT has standards! Weird, huh?) and found something wacky I'm pretty sure is an error: Exit tabs are all specified using vanilla Series E, except when the exit number is two digits without a suffix, in which case the exit number (and not the word Exit) are Series E(M). What?
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In_Correct

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2021, 02:46:01 AM »

Keep Tolls.
Tulsa needs at least one toll free interstate route.

That one can be an extension of Interstate 45.
If it’s ever built. Oklahoma is not exactly flush with cash. Hell, I’d be happy just to see OKDOT place “future” interstate markers at this point.

Oklahoma Is Not Exactly Flush With Cash. ... is a perfect reason for them to have Toll Roads and to build more of them. And then The Necessary Superhighway can be upgraded mostly untolled into Oklahoma.   The Necessary Superhighway is Interstate 45, Interstate 345, U.S. 75, U.S. 69, The Jefferson Highway, Mississippi Avenue, and perhaps many other names and designations also. Cash is not the only problem of why they have not completed it. Backlash is another reason. Tolled Bypasses might be necessary for the towns.
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bugo

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2021, 09:20:38 AM »

Oklahoma Is Not Exactly Flush With Cash. ... is a perfect reason for them to have Toll Roads and to build more of them. And then The Necessary Superhighway can be upgraded mostly untolled into Oklahoma.   The Necessary Superhighway is Interstate 45, Interstate 345, U.S. 75, U.S. 69, The Jefferson Highway, Mississippi Avenue, and perhaps many other names and designations also. Cash is not the only problem of why they have not completed it. Backlash is another reason. Tolled Bypasses might be necessary for the towns.

It's because of the cheapassed conservative rednecks in this state who don't want to pay taxes because they might help somebody other than themselves. Taxes need to go way up, especially the corporate tax on energy companies.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2021, 11:52:01 AM »

Oklahoma Is Not Exactly Flush With Cash. ... is a perfect reason for them to have Toll Roads and to build more of them. And then The Necessary Superhighway can be upgraded mostly untolled into Oklahoma.   The Necessary Superhighway is Interstate 45, Interstate 345, U.S. 75, U.S. 69, The Jefferson Highway, Mississippi Avenue, and perhaps many other names and designations also. Cash is not the only problem of why they have not completed it. Backlash is another reason. Tolled Bypasses might be necessary for the towns.

It's because of the cheapassed conservative rednecks in this state who don't want to pay taxes because they might help somebody other than themselves. Taxes need to go way up, especially the corporate tax on energy companies.
Yes this
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2021, 04:06:11 PM »

While I don't necessary disagree with the "cheapassed conservative rednecks" comment, building new roads as toll roads may be the only way new roads in Oklahoma (and elsewhere) get constructed. I am skeptical of "just-raise-the-gas-tax" arguments. I would not be surprised if gas taxes are eventually eliminated completely, in favor of other types of fees to pay for transportation improvements.
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Scott5114

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2021, 04:23:01 PM »

The tax that bugo is referring to is not the gas tax, but rather the tax on oil production. This tax was lowered from 7% to 2% in 2014, signed into law during the term of Gov. Mary Fallin, during a trough in oil prices which impacted the profitability of Oklahoma oil companies. The resulting loss of revenue was one of many factors leading to the education crisis a few years later. Conservatives say that the tax cut incentivizes oil production and keeps jobs in Oklahoma, while liberals and progressives point out that the oil companies can't really pick and choose where the oil is (you can't just choose to drill for oil in a lower-tax state), and they didn't just leave it in the ground when the tax rate was 7%.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2021, 04:42:27 PM »

While I don't necessary disagree with the "cheapassed conservative rednecks" comment, building new roads as toll roads may be the only way new roads in Oklahoma (and elsewhere) get constructed. I am skeptical of "just-raise-the-gas-tax" arguments. I would not be surprised if gas taxes are eventually eliminated completely, in favor of other types of fees to pay for transportation improvements.
So how do states like Texas, California, Arizona, Utah, etc. all build massive roads without tolls left and right? The answer is obvious. More taxes go to roads. Either the state needs to raise the taxes to fund road projects or they aren’t allocating their funding right. I don’t believe Oklahoma is the latter, if you know anything about state politics.

In general, Oklahoma does have a certain voter base that thinks taxation is theft and they shouldn’t pay for a road “they’ll never use.” Hopefully this years redistricting initiative might sway the unbalanced rural favoring of politics Oklahoma experiences.
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In_Correct

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2021, 06:35:13 PM »

Raising Taxes takes too much time.
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Scott5114

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2021, 07:04:13 PM »

In general, Oklahoma does have a certain voter base that thinks taxation is theft and they shouldn’t pay for a road “they’ll never use.” Hopefully this years redistricting initiative might sway the unbalanced rural favoring of politics Oklahoma experiences.

I wouldn't count on that. Oklahoma Republicans are still rattled that they lost the fifth district in 2018, even though they won it back in 2020. I'm expecting the 2022 maps to slice and dice the metro areas even more so that they get stuck to unrelated rural areas, dividing and conquering the urban areas so they have no power to overcome the rural voters. That is, something similar to Utah's congressional districts.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2021, 04:17:23 PM »

Yep. "Cracking and packing" style gerrymandering is definitely a big tactic in redistricting. Nevertheless Oklahoma's rural areas are bleeding population at an increasing rate. I get kind of saddened when visiting small towns like Temple and Walters, seeing various businesses that have closed. There's only so much the GOP is going to be able to do at blunting the growing political power of growing metros like OKC and Tulsa.

It's a long shot, but there is a chance the federal government may change the national gasoline tax to a percentage-based rate that goes up or down with overall gasoline prices. For the longest time the rate has been flat.

Oklahoma did a modest increase of gasoline taxes to re-direct into education funding since teachers were leaving the state in droves. Our gasoline taxes are still much lower than other states, such as California.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2021, 05:17:39 PM »

I’m not sure how I feel about California’s gas tax. I’d have less of a problem with it if trusted the state government but I don’t want to get too political so I’ll leave it at that.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2021, 05:19:22 PM »

In general, Oklahoma does have a certain voter base that thinks taxation is theft and they shouldn’t pay for a road “they’ll never use.” Hopefully this years redistricting initiative might sway the unbalanced rural favoring of politics Oklahoma experiences.

I wouldn't count on that. Oklahoma Republicans are still rattled that they lost the fifth district in 2018, even though they won it back in 2020. I'm expecting the 2022 maps to slice and dice the metro areas even more so that they get stuck to unrelated rural areas, dividing and conquering the urban areas so they have no power to overcome the rural voters. That is, something similar to Utah's congressional districts.
There was a proposal to redistrict earlier this year and OKC would gain a seat and Tulsa would lose one. It looks like they consolidated some urban areas in OKC. For some reason I thought that was more or less the final proposal but…
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kphoger

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #120 on: June 15, 2021, 10:30:11 AM »

I’m not sure how I feel about California’s gas tax. I’d have less of a problem with it if trusted the state government but I don’t want to get too political so I’ll leave it at that.

In general, the bolded portion is a fool's errand, no matter the state.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #121 on: June 15, 2021, 12:15:11 PM »

I’m not sure how I feel about California’s gas tax. I’d have less of a problem with it if trusted the state government but I don’t want to get too political so I’ll leave it at that.

In general, the bolded portion is a fool's errand, no matter the state.
I don’t disagree but we have to have some level of trust in our society and government. I was never a true fan of how some of the funds for SB-1 were going to be used but I was willing to compromise as CA badly needed an increase in road funding.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2021, 01:31:24 AM »

Quote from: Plutonic Panda
There was a proposal to redistrict earlier this year and OKC would gain a seat and Tulsa would lose one. It looks like they consolidated some urban areas in OKC. For some reason I thought that was more or less the final proposal but…

Oklahoma's state district redistricting is a done deal. I don't know about what Tulsa gained or even lost, although I would find it hard to believe Tulsa could have lost anything. The only real losers in this round of redistricting is rural areas. There is a lot of consolidation happening there, particularly the Southeast part of Oklahoma.

The state's legislature will go back into special session this fall to re-draw the lines for Oklahoma's 5 US congressional districts. They have to wait until they get the final US Census data.
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splashflash

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #123 on: June 19, 2021, 07:48:13 AM »

While I don't necessary disagree with the "cheapassed conservative rednecks" comment, building new roads as toll roads may be the only way new roads in Oklahoma (and elsewhere) get constructed. I am skeptical of "just-raise-the-gas-tax" arguments. I would not be surprised if gas taxes are eventually eliminated completely, in favor of other types of fees to pay for transportation improvements.

I see tolls as taxes, just more efficient.  Roadpricing should be everywhere.

https://www.ocregister.com/2021/06/05/why-user-fees-should-pay-for-transportation-infrastructure/amp/
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bugo

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Re: Oklahoma Highways | Small projects and construction
« Reply #124 on: June 19, 2021, 08:24:24 AM »

I see tolls as taxes, just more efficient.  Roadpricing should be everywhere.

No. That would be the equivalent of a regressive tax that disproportionally harms the poor. Unless you're going to tie the amount of tolls to the value of the car or the wealth of the driver, sort of like how in some countries, the more a person makes, the higher traffic tickets are. And I'm not against toll roads. I used a toll road literally an hour ago. But I don't believe they should be everywhere. There should always be a free alternative, funded by a gas tax. Even though there are no free alternatives to some toll roads.
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