This has been a hot-button topic for generations, but we can all agree that the south is made up of the following states:
AL, AR, FL, GA, KY, LA, MS, NC, SC, TN, VA, WV
OK and TX are sometimes considered as part of the region, but they are more Western. And although DE and MD also sit below the Mason-Dixon Line, they are more in line with the Northeast.
So how would you define the Southern states?
Quote from: Henry on September 04, 2018, 09:43:41 AM
This has been a hot-button topic for generations, but we can all agree that the south is made up of the following states:
AL, AR, FL, GA, KY, LA, MS, NC, SC, TN, VA, WV
OK and TX are sometimes considered as part of the region, but they are more Western. And although DE and MD also sit below the Mason-Dixon Line, they are more in line with the Northeast.
So how would you define the Southern states?
First off, there's definitely no agreement Virginia is in the south. A simple Google search of "Is Virginia Mid-Atlantic" brings up nearly an even ratio of sites arguing it's in the South and in the Mid-Atlantic. I certainly don't consider it being in the South.
Also, not all of Delaware is below the Mason Dixon Line. And to further that point, part of New Jersey
is below the Mason Dixon line.
And Texas...I doubt many consider that 'West', especially as most of the state is in the Central Time Zone.
Confederate states, plus Kentucky. So subtract West Virginia from Henry's list and add Texas.
That said, Florida ironically loses its southernness the further south you go.
DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South. MO is split along I-70. Most of TX's population is in the South, but land area is more like 50/50. The only part of MD in the South is Delmarva.
Speaking of Texas my personal opinion is that everything west of San Antonio falls into the Mountain West whereas everything to the east has more in common with the south. Oklahoma is kind of a toss up between South and Mid-West.
Today, the "South" is defined culturally, and does not exactly follow state lines. The issues of that long ago war are not really significant to the discussion.
Easily one must include the entire states of NC, SC, GA, AL, MS, LA, and TN.
Then it gets tricky. IMHO, let us treat each state one by one:
Virginia. Outside of the overgrown DC suburbs, which might as well be California, certainly the South.
Maryland. DC suburbs see above. Baltimore is a northern city. Western Maryland is culturally similar to rural Pennsylvania. But then there is the Eastern Shore. Spend any time there (inland, a beach resort is a beach resort) and tell me is is not more like Georgia or North Carolina than it is like Pennsylvania or New Jersey.
Delaware. Yes, Delaware. In most of the country, the cultural regions kind of transition over a couple of hundred miles. Not in Delaware. North of the canal, it is Philadelphia. South of it. See Eastern Shore of Maryland, above. That quick.
West Virginia. Most of West Virginia was never asked if it wanted to be West Virginia. Northern WV might as well be Pittsburgh, but the rest of the state is very Southern, unless you are saying "Appalachian" is a separate thing, which complicates not only WV, but KY, NC, and TN as well.
Kentucky. The southwest and south central, culturally in tune with Memphis and Nashville, certainly. The Bluegrass, certainly. Eastern Kentucky, see Appalachia discussion. Louisville and Cincy suburbs, not really. Much more Midwestern.
Florida. The old saying in Florida is "as you go north you go south, and v-v". Remember than something like 95% of Florida residents' grand parents did not live in Florida. But the rural parts of Florida is certainly Southern, and certainly the panhandle is.
Texas. East Texas is certainly Southern in history and culture. The less populated west is much more western.
Oklahoma. Similar to Texas. Most of eastern OK is as southern in culture as Georgia.
Arkansas. Most people would say automaticlly, but AR is a diverse state for its size. Sam Walton always said that NW AR was "the midwest". And you can say the same thing about the Ozarks as Appalachia. Still I would i would include it all.
Missouri. Well, certainly not most of it, although Mizzou is in the SEC. The southern edge of the state is certainly southern in its culture.
Texas is Texas. Very large state and is its own region, you can't really consider it to be part of any other region.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 04, 2018, 09:53:37 AM
First off, there's definitely no agreement Virginia is in the south. A simple Google search of "Is Virginia Mid-Atlantic" brings up nearly an even ratio of sites arguing it's in the South and in the Mid-Atlantic. I certainly don't consider it being in the South.
"Mid-Atlantic" or "Middle-Atlantic" is an informal term, not a recognized major region of the country. Geographically North Carolina is Mid-Atlantic.
Northern Virginia is not southern, it is more like New Jersey. The rest of Virginia is certainly in the South.
Here: http://creoleindc.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5e0053ef019b00fad652970c-pi
I saw this map referenced a while back, so let me bring it here.
For what it's worth, I am not using the map to reference "the nations" of the US, but to show geographical/cultural differences.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 04, 2018, 11:04:13 AM
Today, the "South" is defined culturally, and does not exactly follow state lines. The issues of that long ago war are not really significant to the discussion.
Easily one must include the entire states of NC, SC, GA, AL, MS, LA, and TN.
Then it gets tricky. IMHO, let us treat each state one by one:
Virginia. Outside of the overgrown DC suburbs, which might as well be California, certainly the South.
Maryland. DC suburbs see above. Baltimore is a northern city. Western Maryland is culturally similar to rural Pennsylvania. But then there is the Eastern Shore. Spend any time there (inland, a beach resort is a beach resort) and tell me is is not more like Georgia or North Carolina than it is like Pennsylvania or New Jersey.
Delaware. Yes, Delaware. In most of the country, the cultural regions kind of transition over a couple of hundred miles. Not in Delaware. North of the canal, it is Philadelphia. South of it. See Eastern Shore of Maryland, above. That quick.
West Virginia. Most of West Virginia was never asked if it wanted to be West Virginia. Northern WV might as well be Pittsburgh, but the rest of the state is very Southern, unless you are saying "Appalachian" is a separate thing, which complicates not only WV, but KY, NC, and TN as well.
Kentucky. The southwest and south central, culturally in tune with Memphis and Nashville, certainly. The Bluegrass, certainly. Eastern Kentucky, see Appalachia discussion. Louisville and Cincy suburbs, not really. Much more Midwestern.
Florida. The old saying in Florida is "as you go north you go south, and v-v". Remember than something like 95% of Florida residents' grand parents did not live in Florida. But the rural parts of Florida is certainly Southern, and certainly the panhandle is.
Texas. East Texas is certainly Southern in history and culture. The less populated west is much more western.
Oklahoma. Similar to Texas. Most of eastern OK is as southern in culture as Georgia.
Arkansas. Most people would say automaticlly, but AR is a diverse state for its size. Sam Walton always said that NW AR was "the midwest". And you can say the same thing about the Ozarks as Appalachia. Still I would i would include it all.
Missouri. Well, certainly not most of it, although Mizzou is in the SEC. The southern edge of the state is certainly southern in its culture.
I would agree with your statements.
That looks like a map that I've seen in a book before; but I forget which book.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 04, 2018, 11:04:13 AM
Arkansas. Most people would say automaticlly, but AR is a diverse state for its size. Sam Walton always said that NW AR was "the midwest". And you can say the same thing about the Ozarks as Appalachia. Still I would i would include it all.
It's almost like Northwest Arkansas should have been the bootheel of Missouri instead of the southernmost counties along the Mississippi. Once you drive south on I-49 and pass through the tunnel, the weather and culture takes a distinct shift south. The Boston Mountains were enough of an obstacle until I-49 punched a tunnel through that Fayetteville and parts north were never given much thought by the other parts of the state, at least other than football season.
Quote from: Beltway on September 04, 2018, 11:41:37 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 04, 2018, 09:53:37 AM
First off, there's definitely no agreement Virginia is in the south. A simple Google search of "Is Virginia Mid-Atlantic" brings up nearly an even ratio of sites arguing it's in the South and in the Mid-Atlantic. I certainly don't consider it being in the South.
"Mid-Atlantic" or "Middle-Atlantic" is an informal term, not a recognized major region of the country. Geographically North Carolina is Mid-Atlantic.
Northern Virginia is not southern, it is more like New Jersey. The rest of Virginia is certainly in the South.
So most of Virginia is in the south, but North Carolina, which is south of Virginia, is Mid-Atlantic?
Technically speaking, even North and South, Northeast, West, etc will vary based on the industry, news program, politics, etc. There's no true defined term for them either.
(https://i.imgur.com/SVl2Pvy.png)
This one will be less controversial than the Midwest, I think.
The internal divisions of the South (Tidewater, Deep South, Piedmont, Upper South) are much more interesting
Quote from: Henry on September 04, 2018, 09:43:41 AM
.... And although DE and MD also sit below the Mason-Dixon Line, they are more in line with the Northeast.
....
Delaware is east of the Mason-Dixon Line, which turns south when it hits the DE/MD/PA tripoint.
I usually think of the South as the Confederacy minus Texas and at least part of Virginia.
Simple and clear: Andalusia is the South.
Oh wait, you mean the South of the USA? Then anything below the compromise line of 1850, as long as there is enough rainfall.
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2018, 01:48:40 PM
I usually think of the South as the Confederacy minus Texas and at least part of Virginia.
I think the line in Virginia has gradually moved further south over the years, too.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on September 04, 2018, 02:35:19 PM
Simple and clear: Andalusia is the South.
Oh wait, you mean the South of the USA? Then anything below the compromise line of 1850, as long as there is enough rainfall.
That includes absolutely none of Virginia and even excludes a thin sliver of North Carolina.
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2018, 01:48:40 PM
I usually think of the South as the Confederacy minus Texas and at least part of Virginia.
Then define "Confederacy". Lots of problems.
People in SC and SW Kentucky purported to set up a separate state government, and it joined the Confederacy. Had soldiers on both sides.
People around Wheeling, VA purported to set up a separate state government, claiming sovereignty over the entire state, and that government gave permission for the founding of West Virginia, against the wishes of the people in at least half of the counties included in that new state.
Large areas of what is today SW Virginia and upper east Tennessee ignored their state governments and were pro Union. Smaller pockets as far south as AL and MS, mostly in the mountains.
Missouri like Kentucky had a purported Confederate state government and sent troops to both sides.
The Indian Nations (today's Oklahoma) was largely pro-Confederate and most tribes considered themselves as allies to the CSA.
The CSA established a New Mexico Territory (the southern half of modern New Mexico and Arizona).
The only parts of Florida that were inhabited (by white or black peope) was the northern edges near GA and AL; and a few coastal villages further south reachable only by boat. The rest of the state had no real organized government, nor need for one, for more than 50 years past the war.
Significant parts of CSA states, including New Orleans were occupied quickly and actually under CSA control for only a short time.
Maryland, most significantly the impossible for the ANV to reach Eastern Shore, and Delaware were slave states.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 04, 2018, 02:37:40 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2018, 01:48:40 PM
I usually think of the South as the Confederacy minus Texas and at least part of Virginia.
I think the line in Virginia has gradually moved further south over the years, too.
Fredericksburg
Defining the South can be tricky at times.
I personally define the South in all cases as Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina. Even though Oklahoma has some qualities of the South, I personally consider it to be more in the Midwest category, even though it's quite distant (geographically) from many of the other Midwestern states. Florida could be considered part of the South in some cases, and it definitely is geographically, but culturally it is much, much different than the Deep South states. I repeat the phrase that in Florida, "the more South you go, the less southern it gets," which does have a lot of truth to it. Kentucky does have some southern qualities, but it also has both midwestern qualities and qualities of Appalachia, so I'm not sure that Kentucky could be considered the South in every case. West Virginia heavily has qualities of Appalachia. Even if the southern part of Missouri has some qualities of the South, I never personally categorize Missouri as part of the South, unless I am referring to the time period during the early-to-mid-1800's, when the state was considered as part of the South. I primarily consider Missouri to be part of the Midwest. Virginia does have some southern qualities, and I categorize it as part of the South sometimes, but not every time. It also has many cultural similarities to the Mid-Atlantic and the Northeast, and even Appalachia. In these days (i.e. the past century and a little beyond), Maryland and Delaware have virtually no resembelnce to the South, and I would never categorize them as part of such. They were culturally similar to the South back in the 1800s, but those days are long gone.
IMO, Cecil County in northeastern Maryland has more in common with the south than the rest of Maryland.
Delaware's "North/South" split has steadily drifted south as well. Middletown, south of the C&D Canal, is a fast-growing populated suburb of Wilmington and even Philly, and is now more closely related to Delaware North of the canal rather than the more-southern portions of the state.
Non-native Delawarean, but I would probably consider anything south of Camden/Wyoming "the south," but that's largely because I would prefer not to live in the south and I live in Dover. :spin: Plus, most of my coworkers live in Dover and Camden and I don't really consider them to be particularly "southern."
I think the Canal being the cultural divide in Delaware is a more archaic statement. The explosion of Middletown and Smyrna with commuters to Wilmington really pushes the cultural divide further south and towards Dover. Yes, the geography and development patterns are very different around Middletown and Smyrna than Bear and Newark, but I'd say the culture really shows a change around Dover.
Now Sussex County...that's definitely southern (https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/2017/08/15/delaware-leaders-make-no-moves-oust-confederate-monument/570039001/).
West Virginia is not the South
Virginia I'd classify as a mid-Atlantic state, but otherwise the list is generally what I call the South.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on September 04, 2018, 02:35:19 PM
Simple and clear: Andalusia is the South.
Oh wait, you mean the South of the USA? Then anything below the compromise line of 1850, as long as there is enough rainfall.
The compromise with the line (36 degrees, 30 minutes north) was the Missouri Compromise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Compromise). the Compromise of 1850 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1850) retained the Missouri Compromise line and extended it westward. What thoroughly fouled everything up was the Kansas-Nebraska Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas%E2%80%93Nebraska_Act) of 1854.
However, the 36 degrees, 30 minutes north line does not really form the northern boundary of The South. Personally, I'd use the Mason-Dixon Line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason%E2%80%93Dixon_line), Ohio River, and split Missouri about halfway. Everything south of there is The South, IMHO.
I just use the official Census Bureau or federal definitions that divide the country into 4 regions - except that if a state is mostly north of 36° 30' N and didn't join the Confederacy, I just put it in another region. This means Maryland, Delaware, and D.C. join the Northeast. It also means Kentucky and West Virginia join the Midwest. I know West Virginia is really in a league of its own, but it was split from Virginia for a reason.
When I put up a set of road photos, some states can be in whatever region suits the purpose at hand. For instance, Kentucky can be in a set of photos from the South - or the Midwest.
TX, AR, OK, NC, SC, AL, MS, GA, TN, VA, LA
KY is borderline but I consider it southern. MD/DE I feel more Northeast than South.
I've often thought of Texas as the intersection of the South with the Southwest. Culturally, I would consider west TX - El Paso and Big Bend down to the RGV - as Southwestern: a mostly desert environment where 'home cookin' is often TexMex.
Much of east Texas definitely has a southern feel similar (if not identical) to the 'deep South.'. 'Home cookin' " in the woods is usually biscuits-and-gravy fare.
The panhandle feels a bit different from both of these - but I'm not sure how to characterize it. . . kind of midwestern-adjacent-ish.... similar (though I'm not sure many Texans would admit it) to Oklahoma.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 04, 2018, 12:43:05 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 04, 2018, 11:41:37 AM
"Mid-Atlantic" or "Middle-Atlantic" is an informal term, not a recognized major region of the country. Geographically North Carolina is Mid-Atlantic.
Northern Virginia is not southern, it is more like New Jersey. The rest of Virginia is certainly in the South.
So most of Virginia is in the south, but North Carolina, which is south of Virginia, is Mid-Atlantic?
Technically speaking, even North and South, Northeast, West, etc will vary based on the industry, news program, politics, etc. There's no true defined term for them either.
Just saying that N.C. is on the Altantic Ocean and in the middle eastern seaboard.
It's funny, Wikipedia has a "Mid-Atlantic Region" page, and it shows VA, WV, MD, DE, NJ, PA and NY being in this region! That goes all the way to Canada. They're basically throwing darts themselves.
As a Kentuckian, I think we're more southern than midwestern, but I don't really consider us to be "the south" unless we're being compared to the northeast or New England.
To me, the mid-Atlantic is Maryland, Delaware, eastern Pennsylvania (and I am aware it does not touch the ocean), New Jersey, and southeastern New York (NYC and Long Island.) And I consider those sections mentioned of Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York, as also being northeastern.
To me, Virginia is more southern than Kentucky.
And there's that whole Appalachian thing that was mentioned upthread.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 04, 2018, 02:40:20 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 04, 2018, 02:37:40 PM
I think the line in Virginia has gradually moved further south over the years, too.
Fredericksburg
^Agreed. Not only does one traveling southbound on I-95 see their first giant roadside Confederate Flag(Near Falmouth), but also just across the Rappahannock River, there is a random southbound VA Welcome Center. A couple of years back when stopped there, I asked the front desk lady why the welcome center was in the location it was in. She simply replied "Cuz you in the South now boy. Welcome!"
I find that my conception of the South corresponds fairly well to the areas where "y'all" is more common than "you guys," as seen in the map below:
(https://i.redditmedia.com/v2jCCh77naKjvzVB28ct9l1FUo_wAkfko7GrKSlSyso.jpg?s=971368b1b98c20fcfb9707a7b36f4063)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 04, 2018, 07:53:55 PM
I find that my conception of the South corresponds fairly well to the areas where "y'all" is more common than "you guys," as seen in the map below:
(https://i.redditmedia.com/v2jCCh77naKjvzVB28ct9l1FUo_wAkfko7GrKSlSyso.jpg?s=971368b1b98c20fcfb9707a7b36f4063)
It used to be "availability of sweet tea on a menu" is a pretty good barometer.
Quote from: Jmiles32 on September 04, 2018, 07:09:04 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 04, 2018, 02:40:20 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 04, 2018, 02:37:40 PM
I think the line in Virginia has gradually moved further south over the years, too.
Fredericksburg
^Agreed. Not only does one traveling southbound on I-95 see their first giant roadside Confederate Flag(Near Falmouth), but also just across the Rappahannock River, there is a random southbound VA Welcome Center. A couple of years back when stopped there, I asked the front desk lady why the welcome center was in the location it was in. She simply replied "Cuz you in the South now boy. Welcome!"
Then again, I've seen the stars-and-bars in Ohio, New York, and even...Alberta.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 04, 2018, 02:39:08 PM
Then define "Confederacy". Lots of problems.
Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2018, 09:12:37 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on September 04, 2018, 02:39:08 PM
Then define "Confederacy". Lots of problems.
Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.
What "had to be readmitted"? They were forced into the union at the point of a gun.
Quote from: formulanone on September 04, 2018, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 04, 2018, 07:53:55 PM
I find that my conception of the South corresponds fairly well to the areas where "y'all" is more common than "you guys," as seen in the map below:
(https://i.redditmedia.com/v2jCCh77naKjvzVB28ct9l1FUo_wAkfko7GrKSlSyso.jpg?s=971368b1b98c20fcfb9707a7b36f4063)
It used to be "availability of sweet tea on a menu" is a pretty good barometer.
There is no doubt about this! This definitely puts MO out of the south....no matter what conference Mizzou plays in. (they shouldn't be in the SEC, but that is a whole other subject for another place & time.)
Quote from: Brandon on September 04, 2018, 03:35:04 PM
The compromise with the line (36 degrees, 30 minutes north) was the Missouri Compromise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Compromise). the Compromise of 1850 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1850) retained the Missouri Compromise line and extended it westward. What thoroughly fouled everything up was the Kansas-Nebraska Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas%E2%80%93Nebraska_Act) of 1854.
Yeah, I meant the Missouri Compromise line, extended Eastward from Missouri (I thought it also went East of the Mississippi, but it seems it didn't). Of course, I consider any portions of Tennessee and North Carolina north of 36.5° part of the South, as both states were supposed to have their northern boundary at that line. Not sure about if Virginia is also part of the South, and definitely it is not North of US 460.
However, my definitions of the South and the Midwest leave Kentucky, and especially the Western part of it, in a gray zone.
I find much of Missouri, Southern Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, and Kentucky, to be fairly Southern. They definitely have the traditional accent and culture of the South, albeit with a lower African American population, removing them from "Deep South" status.
West Virginia, on the other hand, is definitely not part of the South, and Virginia has been drifting away from the South for decades, if not over a century. North Carolina doesn't strike me as very Southern either; too many Northern vacationers, maybe? Not sure what it is but NC seems very distinct from the true South, more in a class with Virginia.
Tennessee is definitely Southern, yet not Deep South, similar to my first category above. Oklahoma is definitely more Midwestern. While parts of Texas have commonalities to the Deep South, western Texas has much more in common with New Mexico and Arizona, so I wouldn't classify it as part of the traditional South, more of a separate "Southwest" Region influenced by Mexico.
Florida has become increasingly hard to classify. It's East in general more than South specifically, IMO. Too many Northerners to be classified with the true South.
The only entire states that are definitely in the South are AR, LA, MS, AL, GA, and SC.
NC has a lot of transplants from up north. One of my coworkers worked in Charlotte for a bit. It's a big finance center. There's also the Research Triangle.
OTOH, years ago a lot of southerners went up north to work in factories; especially during the WOrld Wars.
Here in West Texas, we consider anything west of I-35 to be part of the Southwest. South of I-10 is La Frontera :sombrero:. East Texas is definitely the South. Dallas is sometimes lumped in with "The Yankeelands", along with everything beyond the northern and eastern borders.
Austin is just "weird".
Two observations.
- To me, "mid-Atlantic" is just a made up term. One can easily say phrases like "Southern manners" or "Midwestern values" or "Western grit" or "New England resolve" or even "New Jersey attitude" or "West Coast leftism". Is "mid-Atlanticican" even a word? Can you think of a single individual characteristic that people in the "mid-Atlantic", however you define it, share?
- A lot of opinions above that shrink the size of the South, seem to be based on interactions in cities. Get a county or two away from the big cities and you will find a whole different world. (Actually, getting a county or two away from the big cities is helpful in 1000 ways in terms of cultural understanding.)
Mid Atlantic was a region during the colonial era; but even then it was diverse. New York was settled by the Dutch while Pennsylvania was a polyglot of Quakers, Germans, and others. I'm not up on New Jersey. Hell, I assumed there was a direct highway route from the Turnpike to Philly.
Quote from: Beltway on September 04, 2018, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2018, 09:12:37 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on September 04, 2018, 02:39:08 PM
Then define "Confederacy". Lots of problems.
Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.
What "had to be readmitted"? They were forced into the union at the point of a gun.
They were required to have 10% of the population take an oath of loyalty, write a new state constitution, and form a new state government. Sounds like readmitting to me. Through I would have preferred the Wade-Davis Bill rather than Lincoln's plan.
Quote from: jon daly on September 05, 2018, 11:27:59 AM
Mid Atlantic was a region during the colonial era; but even then it was diverse. New York was settled by the Dutch while Pennsylvania was a polyglot of Quakers, Germans, and others. I'm not up on New Jersey. Hell, I assumed there was a direct highway route from the Turnpike to Philly.
It was given to Sir George Carteret to settle a debt; prior to that, it was essentially part of New York.
Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2018, 01:23:30 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 04, 2018, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2018, 09:12:37 PM
Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.
What "had to be readmitted"? They were forced into the union at the point of a gun.
They were required to have 10% of the population take an oath of loyalty, write a new state constitution, and form a new state government. Sounds like readmitting to me. Through I would have preferred the Wade-Davis Bill rather than Lincoln's plan.
They had no choice. Lincoln had just killed over 700 thousand Americans in his effort to force those states back into the union. He would have killed more people if they didn't go along with those 'terms'.
Related, they refer to the Ciivil War as "War of Northern Aggression"
Quote from: Big John on September 05, 2018, 03:58:33 PM
Related, they refer to the Ciivil War as "War of Northern Aggression"
You mean the "War of the Southern Temper Tantrum"?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2018, 10:27:40 AM
Speaking of Texas my personal opinion is that everything west of San Antonio falls into the Mountain West whereas everything to the east has more in common with the south. Oklahoma is kind of a toss up between South and Mid-West.
I would agree. West Texas has that southwest feel and everything east of I-35 and about an hour west of I-35 is definitely the south. Except Austin, which is East California.
Quote from: Beltway on September 05, 2018, 03:50:27 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2018, 01:23:30 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 04, 2018, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2018, 09:12:37 PM
Those states that had to be readmitted to the Union in Reconstruction.
What "had to be readmitted"? They were forced into the union at the point of a gun.
They were required to have 10% of the population take an oath of loyalty, write a new state constitution, and form a new state government. Sounds like readmitting to me. Through I would have preferred the Wade-Davis Bill rather than Lincoln's plan.
They had no choice. Lincoln had just killed over 700 thousand Americans in his effort to force those states back into the union. He would have killed more people if they didn't go along with those 'terms'.
Who fired first, again?
Quote from: TXtoNJ on September 05, 2018, 06:20:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 05, 2018, 03:50:27 PM
They had no choice. Lincoln had just killed over 700 thousand Americans in his effort to force those states back into the union. He would have killed more people if they didn't go along with those 'terms'.
Who fired first, again?
South Carolina firing on South Carolina, at squatters? Nobody died there, they just wanted to cause discomfort. Not a casus belli.
I guess I'll chip in. I'd say the South consists of all the original British colonies (Virginia, the Carolinas, and Georgia) at the time of the Revolution (so this includes Kentucky, W. Virginia, Alabama, Tennessee, and maybe Mississippi). If you think about it, the Southern accent is pretty much a corruption of the British accent (also why Brits are really good at Southern accents).
Hey! Even though I'm a mild Civil War buff, I'm not sure that this is the place to refight it. I will recommend Tony Horwitz's CONFEDERATES IN THE ATTIC. That's the book that got me into it about and I wound up spending a few days in Gettysburg this spring.
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 05, 2018, 07:06:30 PM
I guess I'll chip in. I'd say the South consists of all the original British colonies (Virginia, the Carolinas, and Georgia) at the time of the Revolution (so this includes Kentucky, W. Virginia, Alabama, Tennessee, and maybe Mississippi). If you think about it, the Southern accent is pretty much a corruption of the British accent (also why Brits are really good at Southern accents).
https://youtu.be/bzpPVbdRR74
Quote from: jon daly on September 05, 2018, 07:26:12 PM
Hey! Even though I'm a mild Civil War buff, I'm not sure that this is the place to refight it. I will recommend Tony Horwitz's CONFEDERATES IN THE ATTIC. That's the book that got me into it about and I wound up spending a few days in Gettysburg this spring.
That is a nice sentiment you have to suggest not discussing the war here, but then you recommend a book (a few mouse clicks reveals) that takes a very biased stance on the war.
If a state cannot "legally" secede, as some people wrongly claim, then the idea of a state being "readmitted" is an oxymoron because the state never "left" in the first place.
Quote from: Beltway on September 05, 2018, 08:40:33 PM
Quote from: jon daly on September 05, 2018, 07:26:12 PM
Hey! Even though I'm a mild Civil War buff, I'm not sure that this is the place to refight it. I will recommend Tony Horwitz's CONFEDERATES IN THE ATTIC. That's the book that got me into it about and I wound up spending a few days in Gettysburg this spring.
That is a nice sentiment you have to suggest not discussing the war here, but then you recommend a book (a few mouse clicks reveals) that takes a very biased stance on the war.
As opposed to a work glorifying the Lost Cause, I'm sure.
I fail to see why so many people such as yourself remain so embittered about something that happened 100+ years before your birth.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 05, 2018, 09:46:52 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 05, 2018, 08:40:33 PM
That is a nice sentiment you have to suggest not discussing the war here, but then you recommend a book (a few mouse clicks reveals) that takes a very biased stance on the war.
As opposed to a work glorifying the Lost Cause, I'm sure.
I fail to see why so many people such as yourself remain so embittered about something that happened 100+ years before your birth.
My ancestors didn't come to the U.S. until 1905 and for that matter to Chicago where I was born so any 'embitterment' is a projection of your own mind.
ok, let's cool it for a while.