Headlines About California Highways – October 2024

Started by cahwyguy, November 02, 2024, 01:44:36 PM

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cahwyguy

It's that time of the month ... and the year ... again:

Time to remember to vote.

Time to remember to read the headlines about California highways at https://cahighways.org/wordpress/?p=17031 .

Time to comment on those headlines in ... 1... 2... 3...
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways


Max Rockatansky

I wanted to include one of the ferry routes on the Sacramento Meet Tour.  But if CA 220 can't manage to consistently stay open I don't see it as being worth the effort. 

Does Anza really need complete streets anything?  That really doesn't resemble a town plot and some widened shoulders on CA 371 would probably be sufficient.

I wonder what the San Francisco Gate thinks of I-980 based of the title of their headline?...

Even the University of California seems to not get that the segment of CA 1 isn't PCH but rather Cabrillo Highway.


RZF

#2
It's about time someone looks into improving traffic flow on CA-78. That freeway serves a very populous corridor in North County, and it always seems to have traffic and so few lanes.

Also, I'm glad those grooves on US-101 in the SFV are finally going away.

pderocco

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2024, 03:39:35 PMI wanted to include one of the ferry routes on the Sacramento Meet Tour.  But if CA 220 can't manage to consistently stay open I don't see it as being worth the effort. 
When I finally went to clinch 220, both ferries were shut down, and I had to drive a really long circuitous route to get to both sections of 220. But it was pretty interesting. Driving along the berms next to the river is a unique experience.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2024, 03:39:35 PMDoes Anza really need complete streets anything?  That really doesn't resemble a town plot and some widened shoulders on CA 371 would probably be sufficient.
That's what I was thinking, too. Does anyone ride a bike further than the local convenience store? Where would they ride to? The Cahuilla casino? Temecula?

pderocco

I-5 North County Enhancements Project: Are they really talking about a segregated truck lane SB from Calgrove to the top of the hill? Is there really room? And when they say they're going to replace the Weldon Canyon Bridge, is that where The Old Road goes under I-5? That will be a traffic mess during that project.

But after 30 years, we're due for another earthquake, and the last two have taken out parts of the I-5/CA-14 interchange. Maybe they should wait till after the next quake.

pderocco

"Caltrans seeks input on project to remove racist Bay Area freeway"  So I-980 is the only freeway that cut through  a neighborhood? Looks to me like most freeways in the Bay Area, or any urban area for that matter, have neighborhoods on both sides of them which used to be connected. And it was a reasonable place to put a short freeway. Perhaps if they called it CA-24 instead of I-980...

pderocco

"The highest point of California's Highway 101 is slowly crumbling away"

Is US-101 really longer than I-5 in California? The Caltrans GIS site says it's a few miles longer. But Travelmapping and Google Maps both say it's a few miles shorter. My question is, how do they define the length of the road? Is it the distance along the pavement, including the extra length caused by hills, or is it the distance along a map? The Travelmapping and Google measurements are a little under 800 miles, suggesting that could account for the difference. But since I-5 goes up much higher than US-101, both at the Tejon Pass and approaching Siskiyou Summit, I'd be surprised if US-101 was lengthened by the ups and downs unless it had more steeper inclines.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: pderocco on November 03, 2024, 04:11:53 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2024, 03:39:35 PMI wanted to include one of the ferry routes on the Sacramento Meet Tour.  But if CA 220 can't manage to consistently stay open I don't see it as being worth the effort. 
When I finally went to clinch 220, both ferries were shut down, and I had to drive a really long circuitous route to get to both sections of 220. But it was pretty interesting. Driving along the berms next to the river is a unique experience.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 02, 2024, 03:39:35 PMDoes Anza really need complete streets anything?  That really doesn't resemble a town plot and some widened shoulders on CA 371 would probably be sufficient.
That's what I was thinking, too. Does anyone ride a bike further than the local convenience store? Where would they ride to? The Cahuilla casino? Temecula?

There a couple cyclists I know who have down Pines to Palms Highway (CA 74).  I just assumed they were using CA 243 to Banning or CA 74 given both are way more scenic than CA 371.  Maybe I was wrong and should have inquired how they were getting back down?

With the ferry routes I went up on day they were both open to try them out.  CA 84 north of the ferry struck me as a road that wouldn't be unfamiliar to the Everglades.

cahwyguy

Quote from: pderocco on November 03, 2024, 04:35:20 AM"Caltrans seeks input on project to remove racist Bay Area freeway"  So I-980 is the only freeway that cut through  a neighborhood? Looks to me like most freeways in the Bay Area, or any urban area for that matter, have neighborhoods on both sides of them which used to be connected. And it was a reasonable place to put a short freeway. Perhaps if they called it CA-24 instead of I-980...

I can't do much about what they name the articles. But there are many freeways that cut through minority communities. Indeed, in the next episode of the California Highways Route by Route podcast, which I'll post probably next weekend, talks about the Stockton Crosstown Freeway and how it impacted the Asian-American community in Stockton. We have an interview with Dr. Paul Ong of UCLA, who wrote a paper on the subject, where we explore the extent to which racism was involved, vs. economics, vs. the attitude of the times. It's a complicated subject, and it is unclear whether (in the case of I-980) removal of the freeway would be restorative, or whether there are other measures that could help Oakland.
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

mrsman

Quote from: cahwyguy on November 03, 2024, 04:11:09 PM
Quote from: pderocco on November 03, 2024, 04:35:20 AM"Caltrans seeks input on project to remove racist Bay Area freeway"  So I-980 is the only freeway that cut through  a neighborhood? Looks to me like most freeways in the Bay Area, or any urban area for that matter, have neighborhoods on both sides of them which used to be connected. And it was a reasonable place to put a short freeway. Perhaps if they called it CA-24 instead of I-980...

I can't do much about what they name the articles. But there are many freeways that cut through minority communities. Indeed, in the next episode of the California Highways Route by Route podcast, which I'll post probably next weekend, talks about the Stockton Crosstown Freeway and how it impacted the Asian-American community in Stockton. We have an interview with Dr. Paul Ong of UCLA, who wrote a paper on the subject, where we explore the extent to which racism was involved, vs. economics, vs. the attitude of the times. It's a complicated subject, and it is unclear whether (in the case of I-980) removal of the freeway would be restorative, or whether there are other measures that could help Oakland.


I think at this point, the past effects on racial minorities of these highways is largely irrelevant.  The highways are there.

The discussion should only be focused on what effects would closing the highway have now.  Traffic impacts.  Costs to keep the highway (maintenance and repairs) or to deconstruct.  And if the highway is removed, what will take its place and will it even help.

Among the more recent plans to close highways, Rochester, NY is doing well.  A key part of it is that the roadway that was closed did not have much traffic anymore and it largely doesn't serve thru traffic.  And they have plans to build new buildings in the area. 

I-980 is too important to simply close.  It is the only access point to Downtown Oakland from the north and a necessary connector between CA-24 and I-880.  It is a bad idea to close this.

Max Rockatansky

I don't understand the theory of how demolition of a freeway is supposed to correct an apparent slight that happened two generations ago.  Hardly seems like a remedy when the majority of those affected probably aren't even alive anymore.

That isn't to say there isn't something to learn from the construction of freeways from pre-CEQA and NEPA era.  I was just under the impression that was what the whole process of environmental impact study was for.

cahwyguy

Quote from: mrsman on November 03, 2024, 06:22:23 PM
Quote from: cahwyguy on November 03, 2024, 04:11:09 PM
Quote from: pderocco on November 03, 2024, 04:35:20 AM"Caltrans seeks input on project to remove racist Bay Area freeway"  So I-980 is the only freeway that cut through  a neighborhood? Looks to me like most freeways in the Bay Area, or any urban area for that matter, have neighborhoods on both sides of them which used to be connected. And it was a reasonable place to put a short freeway. Perhaps if they called it CA-24 instead of I-980...

I can't do much about what they name the articles. But there are many freeways that cut through minority communities. Indeed, in the next episode of the California Highways Route by Route podcast, which I'll post probably next weekend, talks about the Stockton Crosstown Freeway and how it impacted the Asian-American community in Stockton. We have an interview with Dr. Paul Ong of UCLA, who wrote a paper on the subject, where we explore the extent to which racism was involved, vs. economics, vs. the attitude of the times. It's a complicated subject, and it is unclear whether (in the case of I-980) removal of the freeway would be restorative, or whether there are other measures that could help Oakland.


I think at this point, the past effects on racial minorities of these highways is largely irrelevant.  The highways are there.

The discussion should only be focused on what effects would closing the highway have now.  Traffic impacts.  Costs to keep the highway (maintenance and repairs) or to deconstruct.  And if the highway is removed, what will take its place and will it even help.

It is important to remember that it is not black/white, close the highway or not. There are numerous other solutions possible to stitch together the communities on either side. For depressed highways, freeway caps are one solution. For raised highways, increased transit solutions between the sides. That's what the Reconnecting Communities program is looking at. It's not just I-980. There are things like Barrio Logan down in San Diego, bisected by I-5 (and a subject of the interesting Freeway Exit podcast: https://www.npr.org/podcasts/1173400041/freeway-exit ). There's the restoration being done in the I-710 corridor. I think there's work being done in Stockton, where Route 4 hurt the Asian community.

We talk about this at length in the podcast. One of the key factors is that all the stakeholders -- folks in the community, folks who use and depend on the freeway -- all participate in the reimagining process. It is not the place for those of us far removed from the highways, looking at lines on a map, to make the decisions. Those who depend on those routes and are impacted by those routes should be the ones determining what the right solutions are (and it isn't always removing the freeways).

When I post the episode next week, I urge you to listen to it. The link to Dr. Ong's paper, which was the basis of our discussion, is in the link to the page to episode 3.02 on Route 4.
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

cahwyguy

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 03, 2024, 06:26:41 PMI don't understand the theory of how demolition of a freeway is supposed to correct an apparent slight that happened two generations ago.  Hardly seems like a remedy when the majority of those affected probably aren't even alive anymore.

I do think "apparent slight" is a bit dismissive. Many of these highways were sold as urban renewal or slum removal, with a clear undertone appropriate for the time it was done. Economics, red lining of the housing market, and Federal government polices (which were racist coming out of the Roosevelt administration) all impacted things. So it was more than a slight. I'm not sure I'd go to the level of calling it legally intentional, but if it had the desired side effect? Look at the impacts of things like the Bunker Hill removal and the destruction of Chavez Ravine. Are the arts complexes and Dodger stadium better for the community? What about the folks that were impacted? It really depends on your view.

That said, we do have what we've got. For some lesser used routes, such as the stub of Route 103, removal is a viable option. For others, we might explore other options to removal. The issue is what can be done to restore communities that were divided, while still benefiting ALL stakeholder. That includes those that use the routes in question.

It's not an easy issue.
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

Max Rockatansky

#13
Quote from: cahwyguy on November 03, 2024, 06:36:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 03, 2024, 06:26:41 PMI don't understand the theory of how demolition of a freeway is supposed to correct an apparent slight that happened two generations ago.  Hardly seems like a remedy when the majority of those affected probably aren't even alive anymore.

I do think "apparent slight" is a bit dismissive. Many of these highways were sold as urban renewal or slum removal, with a clear undertone appropriate for the time it was done. Economics, red lining of the housing market, and Federal government polices (which were racist coming out of the Roosevelt administration) all impacted things. So it was more than a slight. I'm not sure I'd go to the level of calling it legally intentional, but if it had the desired side effect? Look at the impacts of things like the Bunker Hill removal and the destruction of Chavez Ravine. Are the arts complexes and Dodger stadium better for the community? What about the folks that were impacted? It really depends on your view.

That said, we do have what we've got. For some lesser used routes, such as the stub of Route 103, removal is a viable option. For others, we might explore other options to removal. The issue is what can be done to restore communities that were divided, while still benefiting ALL stakeholder. That includes those that use the routes in question.

It's not an easy issue.


Here's the thing, most of the people for pushing the removal of I-980 are from Bay Area Urbanist groups.  I would probably be more inclined to take this seriously if it actually involved people who lost property when the freeway was built.  On top of it all the SF Gate Headline is clearly designed as an to skew public opinion in one direction. 

Yes, real people were negatively affected by this corridor when I-980 corridor was constructed.  But it is also clear there is some less than savory bias going on that shouldn't be coming from a mainstream media source.  Has anyone at the SF Gate conclusively proven (or reasonably argued) that the planners in Oakland, the CHC or Division of Highways District IV were acting with clear malicious intent? 

When we conducted that interview about the Stockton Crosstown nothing like "racist freeway" was uttered.  Reasoned arguments were given based off the facts of how the corridor was designed.  They inferred that the selected Stockton Crosstown corridor was chosen mostly because of the low property value in minority neighborhoods and lack of political influence to resist eminent domain (as you said, slum clearance was often sold as something good during the era).  Through those arguments one might reasonably infer the corridor selection decisions made as at least partially racially motivated (which was my takeaway).  The SF Gate to my knowledge hasn't taken a hard deep dive like that regarding the design of I-980.  To me it seems like they are just trying to make a splash with their readership

Also, what tends to get lost in all the talk about I-980 is the redundant capacity.  I'm surprised that with Loma Prieta Earthquake still within living memory that most have forgotten how important I-980 was the Cypress Viaduct got taken out.   Take out I-980 and there is no freeway-to-freeway connection between I-880 and I-580 until you get all the way to I-238.

cahwyguy

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 03, 2024, 06:56:19 PMHere's the thing, most of the people for pushing the removal of I-980 are from Bay Area Urbanist groups.  I would probably be more inclined to take this seriously if it actually involved people who lost property when the freeway was built.  On top of it all the SF Gate Headline is clearly designed as an to skew public opinion in one direction. 

Yes, real people were negatively affected by this corridor when I-980 corridor was constructed.  But it is also clear there is some less than savory bias going on that shouldn't be coming from a mainstream media source.  Has anyone at the SF Gate conclusively proven (or reasonably argued) that the planners in Oakland, the CHC or Division of Highways District IV were acting with clear malicious intent? 

I agree that the SF Gate headline was clearly wrong and overly biased. I bemoan the lack of real newspaper editors.

That said, what is important is that ALL stakeholders speak up regarding the Vision 980 process, and that appropriate weight be given. That means the voices of those currently in the community who are impacted by the road, those who travel the road, those in neighboring communities with impacts. The voices that should be given the lowest weight should be those from far outside the area who really have no stake in the outcome, but who are pushing political agendas on either side (either for the freeway, or for its removal).

Those who use it, and those who are impacted by it, should be given the most weight.
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

cahwyguy

Note that the interview I cite below is now up: https://caroutebyroute.org/2024/11/09/ca-rxr-3-03-route-4-stockton/

Quote from: cahwyguy on November 03, 2024, 04:11:09 PM
Quote from: pderocco on November 03, 2024, 04:35:20 AM"Caltrans seeks input on project to remove racist Bay Area freeway"  So I-980 is the only freeway that cut through  a neighborhood? Looks to me like most freeways in the Bay Area, or any urban area for that matter, have neighborhoods on both sides of them which used to be connected. And it was a reasonable place to put a short freeway. Perhaps if they called it CA-24 instead of I-980...

I can't do much about what they name the articles. But there are many freeways that cut through minority communities. Indeed, in the next episode of the California Highways Route by Route podcast, which I'll post probably next weekend, talks about the Stockton Crosstown Freeway and how it impacted the Asian-American community in Stockton. We have an interview with Dr. Paul Ong of UCLA, who wrote a paper on the subject, where we explore the extent to which racism was involved, vs. economics, vs. the attitude of the times. It's a complicated subject, and it is unclear whether (in the case of I-980) removal of the freeway would be restorative, or whether there are other measures that could help Oakland.

Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways



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