News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered from the forum database changes made in Fall 2023. Let us know if you discover anymore.

Main Menu

Michigan Replacing Some M-22 Signs with Plain "22"

Started by catch22, August 24, 2016, 12:17:03 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

jbnv

Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2016, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.

It's actually used in speaking, unlike Wisconsin.  In Michigan, it's "M-14", or in the western UP, "Highway M-28", unlike Wisconsin where everything, including interstates, is simply "Highway", i.e. "Highway 41".

Not unlike Louisiana. If someone mentions "LA (some number)" they're referring to a state highway. (And the "LA" is even more overkill since the shield is the state outline.) (Oddly enough, we tend to call US highways just "Highway." I-10, LA 1, but "Highway" 90.)
🆕 Louisiana Highways on Twitter | Yes, I like Clearview. Deal with it. | Redos: US | La. | Route Challenge


Max Rockatansky

Quote from: jbnv on September 02, 2016, 01:48:54 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2016, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.

It's actually used in speaking, unlike Wisconsin.  In Michigan, it's "M-14", or in the western UP, "Highway M-28", unlike Wisconsin where everything, including interstates, is simply "Highway", i.e. "Highway 41".

Not unlike Louisiana. If someone mentions "LA (some number)" they're referring to a state highway. (And the "LA" is even more overkill since the shield is the state outline.) (Oddly enough, we tend to call US highways just "Highway." I-10, LA 1, but "Highway" 90.)

Or Arizona and Nevada actually putting the state name in the shield.  Personally I'm all for giving the signs a little bit of character to make them stand apart from each other, a little "M" seems minor to me and somehow it's managed to hang on after all these generations of signs.

Max Rockatansky


jbnv

🆕 Louisiana Highways on Twitter | Yes, I like Clearview. Deal with it. | Redos: US | La. | Route Challenge

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: jbnv on September 04, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 02, 2016, 11:00:51 PM
Apparently you can get your own replica M-22 now on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-22-MICHIGAN-HIGHWAY-AUTHENTIC-MUNICIPAL-GRADE-ROAD-SIGN-30-x-30-in-/311689619926?hash=item48922629d6:g:xNwAAOSwgmJXyf7m

Mind the weird font and for some reason the sign being 30x30

"Authentic municipal grade."  :pan:

I don't have a problem with replicas per se, but at the very least make them as close to spec as possible.  At least use the correct size and font.  I have a couple friends that actually sell authentic replicas and make decent money on it.  Obviously there is a niche with M-22 that someone is trying to exploit.....problem is that these "watered down" signs being posted are tomorrow's rare bird finds.  Begs the question if that will help with the theft at all?

bulldog1979

Never mind that you can order a better one for about $50 from various suppliers.

Red Roads

Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.

And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!

formulanone

#32
Quote from: Red Roads on September 16, 2016, 12:15:39 AM
Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.

And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!

I would argue that the Michigan Highway Shield fails the "threshold of originality" portion of copyright law, since it consists of a simple shape and text (a single letter). For that matter, many states use some sort of simple design.

It could still be part of trademark law, however...and then I could understand where a government entity wouldn't want reproduction signs mounted anywhere and everywhere, which might get very confusing for some people.

hbelkins

I had an idea for developing products using a couple of no-longer-in-use Kentucky parkway markers, but never could get an answer as to whether or not the Commonwealth of Kentucky owns the rights to those images.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

bulldog1979

Quote from: formulanone on September 16, 2016, 10:03:58 AM
Quote from: Red Roads on September 16, 2016, 12:15:39 AM
Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.

And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!

I would argue that the Michigan Highway Shield fails the "threshold of originality" portion of copyright law, since it consists of a simple shape and text (a single letter). For that matter, many states use some sort of simple design.

It could still be part of trademark law, however...and then I could understand where a government entity wouldn't want reproduction signs mounted anywhere and everywhere, which might get very confusing for some people.

A quick look at the Michigan MUTCD says that our highway markers are in the public domain and not subject to copyright. Attorney General Bill Schuette has said as much as well in the various lawsuits connected to the M-22 marker. I sincerely doubt that MDOT and the Secretary of State were the ones who sent that cease-and-desist letter on that basis.

However, M22 LLC has been sending such letters to people, including those who wanted to sell M-119 stickers, as a means of protecting their trademark on the M-22 marker. They're fastidious about enforcing their trademark lest it be diluted by other merchandise and ultimately cancelled.

bessertc

MDOT social media folks are now asking the general public for their input on how to deter and limit M-22 sign thieves on their Facebook page. They're also asking if anyone had any other ideas than the "M-less" route markers and other already-tried deterrents which haven't worked so far. You may notice a familiar name in the comments section with one idea (including illustrative graphics) that may or may not help much...

https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/10154444493694927

Check it out!
Drive right. Pass Left. Please!

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

jbnv

I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.

Quote from: NE2 on October 04, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
Smear poo on the signs.

As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.
🆕 Louisiana Highways on Twitter | Yes, I like Clearview. Deal with it. | Redos: US | La. | Route Challenge

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: jbnv on October 04, 2016, 07:52:03 PM
I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.

Quote from: NE2 on October 04, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
Smear poo on the signs.

As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.

Nothing that spraying it down with a hose wouldn't solve.  It's weather resistant vinyl to begin with.

wanderer2575

I've also seen some M-137 merchandise, as a nod to Interlochen National Music Camp.

bessertc

Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 04, 2016, 09:37:42 PM
I've also seen some M-137 merchandise, as a nod to Interlochen National Music Camp.

I've probably seen about two dozen different Michigan routes (State, U.S. and even Intercounty Highway H-58!) turned into "merchandise" now, especially with route marker bumper stickers. Heck, two weekends ago in Wisconsin's Door Peninsula, a little store in Carlsville (on STH-42) was selling STH-42 stickers–pattern accurate, too! The concept is spreading...
Drive right. Pass Left. Please!

Rothman

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 04, 2016, 09:18:26 PM
Quote from: jbnv on October 04, 2016, 07:52:03 PM
I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.

Quote from: NE2 on October 04, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
Smear poo on the signs.

As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.

Nothing that spraying it down with a hose wouldn't solve.  It's weather resistant vinyl to begin with.

You've got a water tank in the back of your truck?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

tchafe1978

About a year ago, the city of Platteville, WI was having problems with a lot of their street sign blades going missing (my guess is some drunk college students stealing them). The city's solution was to paint the signs with a special paint that goes on clear, but when someone touches it, the paint reacts with the oils on the skin and turns the person's hands blue. Maybe something like this would work?

http://platteville.org/?post=20384

catch22

Apparently the new signs didn't deter theft, so MDOT is now experimenting with vinyl lane markings:

http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/mdot-using-new-m-22-markings-to-deter-thefts

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: catch22 on July 11, 2017, 02:24:57 PM
Apparently the new signs didn't deter theft, so MDOT is now experimenting with vinyl lane markings:

http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/mdot-using-new-m-22-markings-to-deter-thefts

They really couldn't just make look like an M22 shield?  I guess the sign I bought for my brother in law will be extra valueable someday. Lol

Henry

I have to say, those M-22 signs look weird without the M on top! As to MI state highway shields looking similar to NC's, which state came first?
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Henry on July 13, 2017, 09:52:42 AM
I have to say, those M-22 signs look weird without the M on top! As to MI state highway shields looking similar to NC's, which state came first?

The State Trunkline Program in Michigan dates back to 1919 and even the older embossed shields still have the "M" in the diamond.  I'm not an expert on North Carolina but I want to say the state highway system there was created in the 1930s?

Mapmikey




Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.