The metric thread

[algorerhythms]

I suppose I could have posted this in the general highways board, since this applies to highways, but I wanted to make this thread a bit more general.

Basically, do you think the U.S. (or if you're not American, you may substitute your country in this question if you like) should use the metric/S.I. system, or the traditional/English system of units? E.g. do you prefer meters or feet, liters or gallons, kilograms or pounds?

[Chris]

Being Dutch, I never learned anything but the metric system.

However, I understand some measurement of the imperial system, mostly gallons, inches, fahrenheit, feet, miles, but not square feet or square miles, not to mention cubic feet / cubic miles.

[Scott5114]

Chris: if you want to understand square miles, pull up Goldsby, Oklahoma on a map. That's where I grew up, and grokking square miles is easy because each of the "major" paved streets are 1 mile apart. Thus each square formed by the street grid is 1 square mile.

I do think we should switch over, being that's the units the rest of the world uses and we're kinda at a disadvantage not being able to understand them. Plus they seem easier to use. But learning them might take a while.

[vdeane]

Being Dutch, I never learned anything but the metric system.

However, I understand some measurement of the imperial system, mostly gallons, inches, fahrenheit, feet, miles, but not square feet or square miles, not to mention cubic feet / cubic miles.

I think that sums up how much anyone knows of the imperial system.  I think that the US should switch to metric, but I do have issues with a couple of the metric measurements:
-Kilometers: the fact that they are so much shorter than miles makes them an inferior method with regard to roads.  Just go to Canada to see what I mean; signage for exits is almost twice as close to the exit as US signage is.  They can't even fit service signs in, they have to be posted before the advance signage (but this is VERY useful for taking sign photos as it gives advance warning for the guide sign).
-Celsius: I know it is better for telling is you are above/below the freezing point, but Fahrenheit has double the precision.  Simply using 200 for boiling instead of 100 would fix this.

Interestingly, some New England states have dual imperial/metric distances on exit signs.

[Chris]

-Kilometers: the fact that they are so much shorter than miles makes them an inferior method with regard to roads.  Just go to Canada to see what I mean; signage for exits is almost twice as close to the exit as US signage is. 

I don't need to go to Canada for that. 

In Europe, signage regarding exits is different per country, Germany, for instance, uses 1000 m - 500 m intervals, while the Netherlands uses 1200 m - 600 m intervals, and Poland begins as early as 3000 m in advance. I don't think signage for exits is necessarily a thing related to kilometers, but more a Canadian thing. (I don't know which intervals Canada use though).

[mightyace]

Logically, I think we should go to the metric system.

But, emotionally, the imperial system is what I learned and understand.

I have a good idea in my head if someone say something is 10 miles away but if they say 16km (approx the same distance), I have to convert it to miles in my head to get an idea of it.  Of course, if I had grown up learning only the metric system, I'm sure I'd be used to it.  There will always be some resistance from older folks if we try again.

Back in the early-mid 70s when I was in grade school and middle school, the U.S. made the biggest push that I remember to go over to the metric system, but it fizzled out.

IMHO The main reason that we've been able to get away with not changing has been that we've been the top dog or one of the top dogs in the world.  If current trends continue and some other country takes over as the leading power (i.e. China), then we will probably be forced to change over.

[Alps]

I just replied "no" because I like the Simpsons quotes.  But in reality, I mean "yes."  I learned some metric growing up but I haven't internalized it.  Rarely, I refer to things in meters/centimeters when they seem like a handier unit.  I do not use liters or cL or mL with any regularity, and grams not much more than that.  We have a long way to go, but we have to stop being stubborn and just go and do it.  Kinda like how Sweden switched sides of the road overnight.

[tmthyvs]

Just go to Canada to see what I mean; signage for exits is almost twice as close to the exit as US signage is.  They can't even fit service signs in, they have to be posted before the advance signage (but this is VERY useful for taking sign photos as it gives advance warning for the guide sign).

I don't know if that's universally true. In greater Vancouver, the exits are signed well ahead of time (usually at 1600m, 800m, 400m or thereabouts--which is incidentally about 1 mile, 1/2 mile, 1/4 mile). Plus, if you want better signage, use metric and just adjust accordingly.

-Celsius: I know it is better for telling is you are above/below the freezing point, but Fahrenheit has double the precision.  Simply using 200 for boiling instead of 100 would fix this.

Fractions a problem? Incidentally, Fahrenheit was, I believe, originally set up to have a zero point at the freezing point of the much more prevalent salt water in some part of the ocean. The problem with that is that the salinity can vary and have a significant effect on the freezing point. Also, using 200 would not fix this--you'd have to get the scientific community to switch their units too, to really accomplish anything. Good luck with that.

[Ian]

Am I the only one that doesn't care?

Honestly, if we switch to metric, sure, it will be a challenge at first to learn, but I can get used to it. Heck, New Hampshire and the Maine Turnpike use bilingual distances.

My $0.02
Ian

[mgk920]

One HUGE advantage that the USA will realize once things are pretty much all 'SI' is that we will no longer have to torture our grade schoolers with having to learn fractions in math.  We eliminated one of the two major reasons for fractions about ten years or so ago when the USA went from binary fractions of dollars to decimal dollars and cents in prices quoted in stock and commodities markets - and would ANYONE ever want to go back on that now?  Pretty much everywhere else in the World, students don't encounter fractions until advanced high-school algebra and not teaching them in grade school will cut well over a year, maybe as much as two years, off of the time that it takes to teach them basic math.

And yes, my mind wants to know how many degrees above or below freezing it is and Celsius gives me that straight out.  An aside - I recall many years ago, in a first grade class where we were being introduced to measures, the teacher asked 'What temperature does water freeze at?'.  I meekly raised my hand and, not really knowing much at all on the subject, said 'Zero?'.  After a strange stare in response, she then asked 'What temperature does water boil at?'.  Again, I meekly raised my hand and said 'One hundred?'.
I ask, if it was *THAT EASY* for me to figure out back then, how on earth can it be hard for anyone else to figure out Celsius temperatures now???

Mike

[rawr apples]

Metric. Km/h and Celsius are easier for me to understand. Spending a lot of time in Canada growing up helped with that.

[Scott5114]

I must admit, cm and mm are rather handy measurements, and in fact I can picture a cm (and an mm) in my head much more readily than an inch. And I don't have to sit there and stare at the ruler going "okay, I know that long line is 1/2 inch...so that one that's a bit shorter is 1/4...which means that's 1/8... so this thing I'm measuring is... 5/16? Shit."

[algorerhythms]

One HUGE advantage that the USA will realize once things are pretty much all 'SI' is that we will no longer have to torture our grade schoolers with having to learn fractions in math.  We eliminated one of the two major reasons for fractions about ten years or so ago when the USA went from binary fractions of dollars to decimal dollars and cents in prices quoted in stock and commodities markets - and would ANYONE ever want to go back on that now?  Pretty much everywhere else in the World, students don't encounter fractions until advanced high-school algebra and not teaching them in grade school will cut well over a year, maybe as much as two years, off of the time that it takes to teach them basic math.

And yes, my mind wants to know how many degrees above or below freezing it is and Celsius gives me that straight out.  An aside - I recall many years ago, in a first grade class where we were being introduced to measures, the teacher asked 'What temperature does water freeze at?'.  I meekly raised my hand and, not really knowing much at all on the subject, said 'Zero?'.  After a strange stare in response, she then asked 'What temperature does water boil at?'.  Again, I meekly raised my hand and said 'One hundred?'.
I ask, if it was *THAT EASY* for me to figure out back then, how on earth can it be hard for anyone else to figure out Celsius temperatures now???

Mike

Eh, kids should learn fractions regardless of whether they're necessary for reading a ruler.

Since I never stated my position on SI vs. English units in my first post, I'll just say that personally I'm in favor of using SI instead of English. I work in a field that (in theory) entirely uses metric units, though if you try to submit a job to the machine shop dimensioned in millimeters, you can expect to have it rejected with a comment telling you to convert it to inches...

[Bickendan]

Metric.
How many feet are in a mile? 'nuff said.

[agentsteel53]

Metric.
How many feet are in a mile? 'nuff said.

never mind that, how many grams in an ounce?  Okay, 28.35 sounds reasonable, if difficult to count on one's finger.  Except when measuring gold, when it's 31.10 grams to the Troy ounce.

same with miles: at sea, they're longer.

the insidiousness of the Old English system goes a lot deeper than just having wacky conversions.

[agentsteel53]

One HUGE advantage that the USA will realize once things are pretty much all 'SI' is that we will no longer have to torture our grade schoolers with having to learn fractions in math.

fractions are not torture.  Madame Bovary is torture, and Catcher in the Rye is at the very least malicious wounding.

[myosh_tino]

Metric.
How many feet are in a mile? 'nuff said.

That's easy... 5,280 feet = 1 mile 

Besides if we convert to metric Denver would no longer be known as the "Mile High City", it will have to be known as the "1.609-Kilometer High City" 

Seriously though, I would just prefer we leave things in the U.S. just as they are.  When I hear a basketball player is 7 feet tall, I know that's a tall guy.  "2.133" meters doesn't have the same impact as "7 footer".  When I hear it's going to be 100 degrees outside I know that it's going to be really hot.  Once again, 37.8 doesn't carry the same emphasis as 100.  Yeah metric is easier to calculate with everything being Base-10 but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  Finally, if all you metric supporters are willing to pay higher taxes (income, gas, sales... whatever) to convert every single freeway sign to metric, kudos to you because if you expect the government to foot the bill for a possible conversion to metric, then I gotta bridge I want to sell to you...

[vdeane]

My answer to how many feet are in a mile is: who cares?  In the very, very rare instance I actually need to convert units, that's what the unit converters on both my phone and graphing calculator are for.

The cost of converting would vary state by state.  In NH there would be none, as they already use dual imperial/metric.  The Maine Turnpike would have some cost due to the exit numbers.

And now for some facts on Fahrenheit:
-0 was the lowest temperature usually seen each year in Europe
-100 was the highest
-The guy who invented the scale lived in the far north where the temperature never rose above the freezing point, so the water freezing at 32 thing was not a consideration.
-There was an even older system where water froze at 6.7 (0 was the freezing point of water mixed with salt)

[Chris]

1km = 1000 meter. 1m = 100 cm. 1cm = 10 mm

1 mile = 5,280 feet. 1 feet = 12 inch. 1 inch = ?

you get the idea 

[WillWeaverRVA]

Seeing as I use metric measurements all the time (after all, I am a pharmacy technician), I really have no problem with them, and they didn't seem hard to learn. I have a few conversions committed to memory: 30mL = 1oz, 2.2kg = 1lb, 2.54cm = 1in, etc.

[WISFreeways]

I'm too lazy to convert to the metric system (imagine if they did  ) so I'll stick to the miles. Besides, the metric system is used in almost ALL the countries, so ours is somewhat unique  .

[Scott5114]

"Mile" does have a ring to it that "kilometer" doesn't. Major turning points are called "milestones", not "kilometerstones", after all...

[WISFreeways]

Major turning points are called "milestones", not "kilometerstones", after all...

[Chris]

"Mile" does have a ring to it that "kilometer" doesn't. Major turning points are called "milestones", not "kilometerstones", after all...

That's true. Even in Dutch, we say "mijlpaal" (mile marker) for a significant accomplishment.

After all, I do think the imperial system has it's charm. I can't imagine hearing kilometers in American movies for instance.

I'm not sure if converting to metric justifies the cost. Just like the UK is never gonna change the driving sides...

[mgk920]

I have always thought that the biggest hangup on 'just doing it' with completing the conversion has been that the 'Olde Englische' units' names are just so damn poetic to say out loud.    Never mind that many/most of them have little real commonality with the others as one goes from one scale to another.

Also, the USA showed beyond a doubt that the 'cost of changing the signs' argument is nothing more than a red herring - look how truly *FAST* some states hopped to it to their change speed limit signs when the NMSL repeal took effect back on 1995-12-08.  They had overlay stickers all lined up and distributed and the crews ready to go within minutes of the zero time.



Mike