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Territorial waters and county lines

Started by wxfree, August 09, 2021, 11:08:44 PM

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wxfree

This is off-topic, but I'm asking it here because this seems like the kind of thing the people here would know.  It's something I would know if I'd found the information and had an opportunity to read it.  We can start in Chicago.  Cook County (according to Wikipedia) is 945 square miles land and 690 square miles water.  Obviously a significant portion of the county is on the lake.  But the map with its red color shows only the section on land.  The detailed USGS maps show county lines ending at the shore.  These are topographic maps, which obviously have no relevance on large lakes.  The maps that show the entire lake, in the 250k series, don't show county lines.  Where does one find maps that show actual county lines of Great Lakes counties?

Another question is about coastal counties.  As I understand it, national territorial waters extend out 12 nautical miles from the shore, but in the United States, state waters extend out a shorter distance, 3 miles if I remember correctly.  Some states have longer distances for various legal reasons, but that doesn't change my question.  Beyond 12 miles there are other zones of interest below full sovereignty.  My assumption is that the sea beyond a state line but within 12 miles is in the United States but is not in any state.  My question is whether counties, and cities, extend out into state waters, and how far.  This is something that could vary by state, depending on how the laws are set up.

My questions are: where are accurate maps of Great Lakes counties, and, for each coastal state, how far do county lines extend into the oceans, and how far are cities allowed to extend, and where can accurate maps be found?
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?


kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

mgk920

The state line between Michigan and Wisconsin is in the center of Lake Michigan (as per Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources fishing regs).

All of the maps that I have ever seen also show that the north and west state lines of Indiana in Lake Michigan is the lines on land extended due north and west into the lake (Indiana is the oldest state on Lake Michigan, so they got the first choice of drawing the line) and the line between Illinois and Michigan, like with Michigan and Wisconsin, is in the center of the lake.

Mike

empirestate

You can see these water boundaries on US Census (TIGER) maps and data products. But I wouldn't take them as any indication of true legal significance; as far as I can see, the jurisdiction of any county over territorial and Great Lakes waters is about as meaningless as that of states outside the three-mile boundary.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: mgk920 on August 12, 2021, 05:22:09 AM
The state line between Michigan and Wisconsin is in the center of Lake Michigan (as per Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources fishing regs).

All of the maps that I have ever seen also show that the north and west state lines of Indiana in Lake Michigan is the lines on land extended due north and west into the lake (Indiana is the oldest state on Lake Michigan, so they got the first choice of drawing the line) and the line between Illinois and Michigan, like with Michigan and Wisconsin, is in the center of the lake.

Mike

The original northern boundary of Indiana territory was defined as the latitude of the southernmost point of Lake Michigan, making Indiana's lake access essentially a single point. Before statehood, the boundary got moved north to give the state usable lake access. All of South Bend and Michigan City, most of East Chicago, and about half of Hammond could have been in other states.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

Flint1979

Quote from: mgk920 on August 12, 2021, 05:22:09 AM
The state line between Michigan and Wisconsin is in the center of Lake Michigan (as per Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources fishing regs).

All of the maps that I have ever seen also show that the north and west state lines of Indiana in Lake Michigan is the lines on land extended due north and west into the lake (Indiana is the oldest state on Lake Michigan, so they got the first choice of drawing the line) and the line between Illinois and Michigan, like with Michigan and Wisconsin, is in the center of the lake.

Mike
You have this sounding like that is the only border between Michigan and Wisconsin.

Roadgeekteen

Do counties actually have any power which would affect waters?
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Flint1979

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 21, 2021, 05:04:25 PM
Do counties actually have any power which would affect waters?
In some cases it's hard to tell which county you're in when you're in the middle of the lake.

wxfree

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 21, 2021, 05:04:25 PM
Do counties actually have any power which would affect waters?

In Texas, most peace officers, such as deputies, have statewide jurisdiction.  Their primary duty is to enforce the laws in the territory where they're employed, but they have the authority to do so anywhere, so county lines don't technically matter.  However, they must notify a law enforcement agency having jurisdiction where the arrest was made.  People arrested on the Gulf may be turned over to a state agency.  Other than that, I would think of regulatory matters, such dumping garbage in the ocean, or boats docked off the coast.  That could be handled by the state, as well.

But there needs to be some idea of where the cities and counties end.  Jurisdiction going to the state for somebody one foot beyond the coast is rather cumbersome and would mean that no local agency would have a primary duty to patrol people in the water.
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?

KEVIN_224

New Hampshire seems to love their river boundaries. In particular, the Connecticut River by Brattleboro. The state line with Vermont is the west shore of the river and not the center. The two crossing are VT/NH Route 9 in the north end of Brattleboro and VT/NH Route 119 going into Hinsdale.

I think New Hampshire DOT owns all or most of the Piscataqua River Bridge (I-95) between New Hampshire and Maine.



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