This weekend, the ship channel bridge protion of the Sam Houston Tollway is shut down. At 5:00 a.m. Monday morning, the bridge will reopen, but when it reopens, it will be all-electronic only: EZ Tag, TxTag, TollTag or (wait for it) the new version of EZ Tag powered by BancPass, that can be reloaded with cash.
https://www.bancpass.com/faq/
http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2016/01/07/133213/ship-channel-toll-bridge-is-about-to-convert-to-all-electronic-tolling-2/
The next toll road to go all-electronic will be the Hardy Toll Road. Some of the on-ramps to southbound Hardy have already been converted to EZ Tag only. Eight years earlier, FBCTRA had converted its segment of the Fort Bend Parkway Toll Road to all-electronic.
I think cash tolls should become obsolete worldwide.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 09, 2016, 03:03:16 PM
I think cash tolls should become obsolete worldwide.
Let's hope you're being sarcastic.
If you're not, do consider out-of-state non-roadgeeks, or people who don't have EZ-Pass.
Not mentioned in the article, but will there be pay-by-plate for travelers without qualifying transponders?
I've driven some Texas toll roads before I got a TxTag. Those roads had a pay-by-plate option, but my Virginia plate was never billed.
Quote from: FreewayDan on January 09, 2016, 12:06:35 AM
http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2016/01/07/133213/ship-channel-toll-bridge-is-about-to-convert-to-all-electronic-tolling-2/
Certainly does not sound like there is an official bill by plate, pay online within x days (as done in Illinois), or set up a temporary bill by plate account option (as the Dallas area has) based on that article, nor am I finding an easy option for out of towners on the Harris County Toll Authority's website.
[gets up on soapbox] Since they have very limited interoperability with transponders from other toll agencies (such as EZPass or IPASS), they ought to be required to have an easy option for out of towners, or Harris County ought to be denied any federal funding.
I hope $5 violation fees are not added to each toll as FBCTRA does. It's really a pain for out of state visitors and is a hindrance for using the toll road.
Nexus 5X
From 2000 to 2015, $ 358 million in unpaid tolls/fees/fines have been accumulated in Harris County. But the actual unpaid tolls are only $ 22 million, the rest are fees and fines, mostly by HCTRA.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Harris-County-racks-up-358M-in-unpaid-tolls-6748471.php
I flat out refuse to take toll roads that don't have a cash option. Half the time when toll roads get rid of their cash booths the tolls increase, which is very odd since it is supposedly cheaper to use cameras.
I know that on TX 255, the cash option was $2. Now there is no cash option and it is $4 plus the $1.15 pay by mail fee. Yes you can get a day pass or whatever, but most out of state drivers aren't going to look up toll roads before they go on their trips. I love paying tolls with cash because I'm done with it and I don't have to worry about fees later on.
noelbotevera, I was not being sarcastic, I was being serious. I know not every country has the technology to do so, but the ones that do should convert to all-electronic tolls. Cash tolls and toll booths as they were known on 20th century toll roads are no longer needed.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 12, 2016, 04:06:42 PM
noelbotevera, I was not being sarcastic, I was being serious. I know not every country has the technology to do so, but the ones that do should convert to all-electronic tolls. Cash tolls and toll booths as they were known on 20th century toll roads are no longer needed.
Some people don't like paying a surcharge because the toll road uses ProprietaryOnlyAcceptedHerePass rather than whatever they have. I'm one of them. Perhaps you should talk to the residents in Montreal who are forced to avoid A-25 because of this.
I don't know what kind of drugs these toll road agency executives are smoking with all kinds of incompatible tag reading systems. It really seems very idiotic and would only lead to increased toll violations or long distance travelers taking surface streets or bypassing the entire area if possible. If they're not already trying to do so, these toll road agencies need to be working on a cooperative effort to arrive at a single nation-wide standard.
I have an Oklahoma PikePass tag. It does work on Dallas area toll roads. But I can't stick a TxTag on my windshield to use on Houston area toll roads without getting double-billed by PikePass and TxTag for the Dallas area toll roads. I don't go to Houston often enough to get their unique tag.
As someone who works on the ship channel and close to this bridge, this couldn't have come soon enough. I'm sorry, but its 2015 and eztags / Txtags should be required. Hell, make everyone in the state get one. imbed the chip in your registration. Its not that hard really.
In just the limited sample size of two days, it has made a significant impact. When I leave work I don't see an elevated parking lot anymore. Now its more of an elevated Katy freeway/I10 west.
Progress!
Seriously though. The situation had gotten so bad on that bridge, that it spilled over onto 225 and its westbound feeder in the afternoon. You'd see a parking lot of cars trying to turn onto the bridge that would extent for more than a mile. Not to mention there are many plants with private rds that access 225 there that are essentially cut off from leaving due to the back up.
Now can you imagine a significant environmental release from Shell with that many people in the line of fire?! Maybe TxDOT & HCTRA should take that into consideration and add direct connectors with the new bridge ASAP.
Why do we need proprietary toll systems in the first place? Take a picture of the license plate. Connect to an online payment system such as PayPal. If the plate is connected to an account, assess the toll. Otherwise mail a bill to the driver.
(Cynical answer: The toll authorities can make lots of money by fining the heck out of you. See quote below. Or see the bills that Illinois sent me when my now-ex-wife decided to jump the tolls.)
Quote from: Chris on January 11, 2016, 09:09:22 AM
From 2000 to 2015, $ 358 million in unpaid tolls/fees/fines have been accumulated in Harris County. But the actual unpaid tolls are only $ 22 million, the rest are fees and fines, mostly by HCTRA.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Harris-County-racks-up-358M-in-unpaid-tolls-6748471.php
The question and answer is simple, but none of you grasp the concept. Do you care about out of state drivers, who DON'T have EZPass, to use the toll roads? If you don't, please, reconsider your life, because EVERYONE should have a fair chance to use a toll road. Just because they don't have a stupid piece of plastic doesn't mean they can't drive a toll road.
Quote from: jbnv on January 13, 2016, 02:18:23 PM
Why do we need proprietary toll systems in the first place? Take a picture of the license plate. Connect to an online payment system such as PayPal. If the plate is connected to an account, assess the toll. Otherwise mail a bill to the driver.
(Cynical answer: The toll authorities can make lots of money by fining the heck out of you. See quote below. Or see the bills that Illinois sent me when my now-ex-wife decided to jump the tolls.)
Quote from: Chris on January 11, 2016, 09:09:22 AM
From 2000 to 2015, $ 358 million in unpaid tolls/fees/fines have been accumulated in Harris County. But the actual unpaid tolls are only $ 22 million, the rest are fees and fines, mostly by HCTRA.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Harris-County-racks-up-358M-in-unpaid-tolls-6748471.php
Because the companies are private and contribute to lawmaker's election campaigns.
Toll road agencies don't make all that much money off of violations. A few years ago I spoke with someone at Oklahoma Turnpike Authority over a violation dispute. Their cameras caught a car with what looked like my license plate going through the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa, but I drive a pickup truck and hadn't been to Tulsa in months at that time. I asked how often violations happen. The answer was hundreds of violations everyday on Oklahoma's turnpike system and that they don't have the manpower and resources needed to collect on all of them. Most of the violations are failed tag readings anyway.
IMHO, none of these turnpike systems are immune to re-doing their whole tag scanning systems. A decade ago I had one of those Pike Pass tags that looked like a thin soap bar. I kind of liked them since they were portable and could be used in more than one vehicle (even though we weren't supposed to do that). OTA totally revamped their tag reading system to some thin (and cheap) thing that sticks to the inside of the windshield.
If the OTA could do that here in Oklahoma then I see no reason for the various toll road authorities in Texas and elsewhere not to do the same and arrive at a universally inter-operable system nationwide.
Which turnpike authority has the most compatible/inter-operable tag system? Oklahoma's Pike Pass works on the Kansas Turnpike and North Texas Tollway Authority toll roads in the Dallas Fort Worth area, but not on toll roads in Austin, Houston or elsewhere in Texas. If I recall correctly Oklahoma and Florida were supposed to have an inter-operability agreement for Pike Pass and Sun Pass, but I don't know if that has been finalized or what.
It would make sense if toll road authorities with the least amount of compatibility with other tag systems (and smallest amount of toll road mileage) should be pressured to change to a more compatible system.
How much would it cost to interconnect all of the electronic toll systems in existence? The odds of making a universal electronic toll collection system seems unlikely, so this would be the next best thing. I must admit, I have never paid a road toll in my life, since I have never driven a car. Yet, I still think all tolls should be collected electronically.
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 13, 2016, 03:21:17 PM
The question and answer is simple, but none of you grasp the concept. Do you care about out of state drivers, who DON'T have EZPass, to use the toll roads? If you don't, please, reconsider your life, because EVERYONE should have a fair chance to use a toll road. Just because they don't have a stupid piece of plastic doesn't mean they can't drive a toll road.
Oh, out-of-state drivers can drive the roads. They can drive right through the electronic toll gates. The question is what the governing toll agency will do (and is empowered by law to do) to collect the toll.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2016, 04:19:51 PM
How much would it cost to interconnect all of the electronic toll systems in existence? The odds of making a universal electronic toll collection system seems unlikely, so this would be the next best thing.
I would be surprised if nobody in Silicon Valley is working on this. There could easily be an app for that. Snap pictures of your plate, add your credit card, and drive. It's definitely not a problem of technology.
Quote from: Chris on January 11, 2016, 09:09:22 AM
From 2000 to 2015, $ 358 million in unpaid tolls/fees/fines have been accumulated in Harris County. But the actual unpaid tolls are only $ 22 million, the rest are fees and fines, mostly by HCTRA.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Harris-County-racks-up-358M-in-unpaid-tolls-6748471.php
Last year I was in Houston and needed to get from IAH to Katy. I took the Sam Houston toll road there and back. No HCTRA tag and no cash option. Got a bill in the mail for the $6.00 toll PLUS a $30 fine.
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 13, 2016, 03:21:17 PM
The question and answer is simple, but none of you grasp the concept. Do you care about out of state drivers, who DON'T have EZPass, to use the toll roads? If you don't, please, reconsider your life, because EVERYONE should have a fair chance to use a toll road. Just because they don't have a stupid piece of plastic doesn't mean they can't drive a toll road.
I'm sorry I don't posses the incredible intellect that you do to understand the "concept".
And no, I do not care about out of state drivers. Why should I? Most if not almost all the traffic on the toll road is local. Those people voted (way back when) to create HCTRA. Because HCTRA is a LOCAL pseudo gov. agency, it is there to serve local interests. Out of state drivers can take the interstate.... the part of the system they have paid towards.
What does "fair" have anything to do with it?
Quote from: rte66man on January 13, 2016, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Chris on January 11, 2016, 09:09:22 AM
From 2000 to 2015, $ 358 million in unpaid tolls/fees/fines have been accumulated in Harris County. But the actual unpaid tolls are only $ 22 million, the rest are fees and fines, mostly by HCTRA.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Harris-County-racks-up-358M-in-unpaid-tolls-6748471.php
Last year I was in Houston and needed to get from IAH to Katy. I took the Sam Houston toll road there and back. No HCTRA tag and no cash option. Got a bill in the mail for the $6.00 toll PLUS a $30 fine.
So, what you're saying is you ignored this: https://goo.gl/maps/VebfTJoQ29w
What you're also saying is that you thought you could get away without having to pay a toll at all, and decided not to check out their webpage ( https://www.hctra.org/eztagstore/violatorLoginDisplay.do ) which would have provided you with the ability to call them to make a payment prior to the invoice being sent to you.
We'll say that you didn't realize the tollway didn't accept cash payments. You drove from the airport to Katy, and you never paid a cash toll. You then drove the highway
again knowing what you experienced the first time. At this point, you clearly had intentions of not paying for your ride at all and hoping you weren't going to be invoiced for the trip, and are now simply complaining because you got caught.
No sympathies here.
Quote from: DNAguy on January 14, 2016, 01:09:11 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 13, 2016, 03:21:17 PM
The question and answer is simple, but none of you grasp the concept. Do you care about out of state drivers, who DON'T have EZPass, to use the toll roads? If you don't, please, reconsider your life, because EVERYONE should have a fair chance to use a toll road. Just because they don't have a stupid piece of plastic doesn't mean they can't drive a toll road.
I'm sorry I don't posses the incredible intellect that you do to understand the "concept".
And no, I do not care about out of state drivers. Why should I? Most if not almost all the traffic on the toll road is local. Those people voted (way back when) to create HCTRA. Because HCTRA is a LOCAL pseudo gov. agency, it is there to serve local interests. Out of state drivers can take the interstate.... the part of the system they have paid towards.
What does "fair" have anything to do with it?
Personally I think it would be a smart move for HCTRA to make their roads more accessible to the general public, as it would help bring in more revenue, and hopefully help keep rates lower for us locals. Toll roads tend to be built in areas that help getting through or around town quicker, so it makes sense for out of state drivers to use them.
Rental car agencies make it a pain because they charge a $5/day fee for the entire rental duration regardless of the number of tolls you use. I accidentally took a toll road in Orlando, so I got billed $60 (11 day rental) for a toll that should have cost me $1.50. I had no option to pay online or by mail because it was a PlatePass registered vehicle so it was automatically linked and billed to my Hertz account.
At the very least each toll authority across the country should have an online portal where you can pre-register your plate and add a credit card so you get billed like normal. My HCTRA account allows me to add one guest vehicle for up to 45 days at a time, and bills my account directly at the normal tag rate. I regularly use this feature when my parents visit me (from out of state), as well as for when I have a loaner car. Unfortunately FBCTRA or TxDOT doesn't recognize the temp vehicles, so its still not a perfect fix as it doesn't work on the toll roads immediately around my house.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 13, 2016, 03:49:52 PM
Which turnpike authority has the most compatible/inter-operable tag system?
The various agencies that are a part of EZ Pass. Same transponder gets you from Rock Falls, Illinois to Augusta, Maine, and south into North Carolina.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2016, 04:19:51 PM
How much would it cost to interconnect all of the electronic toll systems in existence? The odds of making a universal electronic toll collection system seems unlikely, so this would be the next best thing. I must admit, I have never paid a road toll in my life, since I have never driven a car. Yet, I still think all tolls should be collected electronically.
http://www.tollinterop.org/
As a reminder, MAP-21 requires complete interoperability of toll systems by the end of FY2016 (i.e. September 30, 2016).
Quote from: DNAguy on January 14, 2016, 01:09:11 PM
And no, I do not care about out of state drivers. Why should I?
So you never drive out of state?
Quote from: DNAguy on January 14, 2016, 01:09:11 PMThose people voted (way back when) to create HCTRA. Because HCTRA is a LOCAL pseudo gov. agency, it is there to serve local interests. Out of state drivers can take the interstate.... the part of the system they have paid towards.
I see several areas around Houston where there is not an alternative interstate and the tollway is the best option, such as Beltway 8, Grand Parkway, and the Westpark Tollway.
So if a driver didn't pay at all for a road, he/she can't use it? That would work really great for interstate commerce if that attitude was widespread.
I think every toll road in the US (and maybe Canada too) should use the same tags for electronic tolling. E-ZPass seems like a good option just because of how wide spread it is in the eastern part of the country. If all the toll roads accepted just one tag then there wouldn't even be an out of state issue and I'd be more supportive of electronic tolling. Until that happens there needs to be at least one cash lane available.
Once you make one cash lane available, you'll have a traffic jam miles long from people thinking they can use cash. No, you won't have the "occasional" driver with cash; you'll have thousands. And then as discussed previously, you'll need infrastructure for that sole employee, not to mention everything that involves cash handling.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 14, 2016, 11:27:46 PM
Once you make one cash lane available, you'll have a traffic jam miles long from people thinking they can use cash. No, you won't have the "occasional" driver with cash; you'll have thousands. And then as discussed previously, you'll need infrastructure for that sole employee, not to mention everything that involves cash handling.
The long lines would hopefully encourage the people that use the road often to get a "pass" to use the road rather than using cash. I don't see why fees are being charged to out of state drivers that use electronic only toll roads. As long as they pay the bill by mail on time they shouldn't be fined at all.
Quote from: US 41 on January 14, 2016, 11:48:18 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 14, 2016, 11:27:46 PM
Once you make one cash lane available, you'll have a traffic jam miles long from people thinking they can use cash. No, you won't have the "occasional" driver with cash; you'll have thousands. And then as discussed previously, you'll need infrastructure for that sole employee, not to mention everything that involves cash handling.
The long lines would hopefully encourage the people that use the road often to get a "pass" to use the road rather than using cash. I don't see why fees are being charged to out of state drivers that use electronic only toll roads. As long as they pay the bill by mail on time they shouldn't be fined at all.
Fees are charged to ALL drivers using the road without a transponder, not just out-of-staters. In Houston's case, it's very easy to use other Interstate highways to avoid paying the toll, and there's sufficient notice on the highway that does have a toll to give one the chance to avoid it. And even then, there's the ability to call and pay the toll if you accidentally used the toll road.
The fine is to encourage those who ignored the 3 ways above to get a transponder. A long line at a cash lane will only give people the power to complain they should add another cash lane.
The fine is for evading the toll, which was due at the time you drove the toll road. There's no 30 day grace period. A fair amount of work goes into reviewing the cameras and databases to determine where to send the bill.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2016, 12:18:54 AMThe fine is to encourage those who ignored the 3 ways above to get a transponder. A long line at a cash lane will only give people the power to complain they should add another cash lane.
The fine is for evading the toll, which was due at the time you drove the toll road. There's no 30 day grace period. A fair amount of work goes into reviewing the cameras and databases to determine where to send the bill.
My problem with HCTRA is that even after running through the tolls without a transponder, it takes 15+ minutes to reach a human on their customer service line. It takes at least 2 weeks for them to process all the tolls you racked up. If you don't remember to call in prior to the tolls getting invoiced (which is not on a fixed schedule by the way), you get nailed with the $5/transaction fines. Worst off there is no way for the customer service reps to reverse the fines out of courtesy.
The current system is broken and needs to be fixed. An online portal that allows you to input a plate number and pull up fines would be great! Link it to a PayPal account and move on with life!
And I get that the fines are a way to encourage violators to pay, as a $50+ bill is more intimately than a $5 bill and can cause one to take it more seriously. But if you are willing to call and pay then they should be willing to remove the penalties (so long as you're not a frequent offender).
Nexus 5X
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 14, 2016, 10:29:31 PM
So if a driver didn't pay at all for a road, he/she can't use it? That would work really great for interstate commerce if that attitude was widespread.
If the interstate highway system had been designed as a tolled network from the beginning, we'd have a nationwide toll service today.
We'd also have fewer discussions about how to finance major road projects since it would be assumed that the people who used them would pay for them.
Quote from: jbnv on January 15, 2016, 08:36:37 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 14, 2016, 10:29:31 PM
So if a driver didn't pay at all for a road, he/she can't use it? That would work really great for interstate commerce if that attitude was widespread.
If the interstate highway system had been designed as a tolled network from the beginning, we'd have a nationwide toll service today.
We'd also have fewer discussions about how to finance major road projects since it would be assumed that the people who used them would pay for them.
If my uncle had a different set of gonads, he'd become my aunt.
And if the Interstate Highway system had been created as a privatized toll system, it wouldn't have made it past 1970.
People using the Interstates already pay for them through the gas tax and auto fees. Gas is now approaching $1.50/gal. The argument for not raising the gas tax is becoming irrelevant. Use that, not tolls.
Quote from: Anthony_JK on January 15, 2016, 09:56:19 AM
People using the Interstates already pay for them through the gas tax and auto fees. Gas is now approaching $1.50/gal. The argument for not raising the gas tax is becoming irrelevant. Use that, not tolls.
Oil prices and gas taxes should never mix. Many are saying now's the time to raise gas taxes. What's the difference if we do it now, or if we did it when gas was $3 a gallon? When gas returns to $3 a gallon, we're still going to have higher gas taxes. It's like saying there's a store-wide sale, but they're going to raise the sales tax since you can afford it.
Quote from: nolia_boi504 on January 15, 2016, 08:01:50 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2016, 12:18:54 AMThe fine is to encourage those who ignored the 3 ways above to get a transponder. A long line at a cash lane will only give people the power to complain they should add another cash lane.
The fine is for evading the toll, which was due at the time you drove the toll road. There's no 30 day grace period. A fair amount of work goes into reviewing the cameras and databases to determine where to send the bill.
My problem with HCTRA is that even after running through the tolls without a transponder, it takes 15+ minutes to reach a human on their customer service line. It takes at least 2 weeks for them to process all the tolls you racked up. If you don't remember to call in prior to the tolls getting invoiced (which is not on a fixed schedule by the way), you get nailed with the $5/transaction fines. Worst off there is no way for the customer service reps to reverse the fines out of courtesy.
Per the website, calling in to pay a toll is supposed to be a one time courtesy, not an opportunity to pay off a week's worth of trips.
Why should they waive a fine? You drove a toll road without the transponder as required.
One of the nice things about electronically paying for tolls...to the transportation agency, that is...is that they are holding onto your money until you use the road, so they have use of that money for investing. You are thinking of it the other way, as a credit card where the bank is lending you the money until you pay it at the end of the billing cycle. The two are vastly different concepts. Even toll agencies that allow toll-by-plate still charge a fee to the user who's paying after-the-fact.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 14, 2016, 11:27:46 PM
Once you make one cash lane available, you'll have a traffic jam miles long from people thinking they can use cash.
No, you don't. ISTHA has cash lanes available, and the longest the lines get is five vehicles. On most of the ramps, there is an exact change lane, but it's rarely used as over 85% of the tollway users use I-Pass or EZ Pass.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2016, 10:28:12 AM
Even toll agencies that allow toll-by-plate still charge a fee to the user who's paying after-the-fact.
Not true for all toll agencies. ISTHA allows 7 days to pay online at the cash rate. No extra fee.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2016, 10:28:12 AM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on January 15, 2016, 09:56:19 AM
People using the Interstates already pay for them through the gas tax and auto fees. Gas is now approaching $1.50/gal. The argument for not raising the gas tax is becoming irrelevant. Use that, not tolls.
Oil prices and gas taxes should never mix. Many are saying now's the time to raise gas taxes. What's the difference if we do it now, or if we did it when gas was $3 a gallon? When gas returns to $3 a gallon, we're still going to have higher gas taxes. It's like saying there's a store-wide sale, but they're going to raise the sales tax since you can afford it.
Collecting taxes on one thing to fund something else is a bad idea. Bureaucrats like to take money dedicated for a purpose and spend it on things of their liking. That's largely how we ended up with trillions of dollars in debt AND a crumbling infrastructure that could have been made state-of-the-art with those trillions.
If the system had been designed so that each major segment was tolled and governed by a highway authority, the system would be in much better shape today. Especially in places like Louisiana.
Quote from: jbnv on January 15, 2016, 11:05:56 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2016, 10:28:12 AM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on January 15, 2016, 09:56:19 AM
People using the Interstates already pay for them through the gas tax and auto fees. Gas is now approaching $1.50/gal. The argument for not raising the gas tax is becoming irrelevant. Use that, not tolls.
Oil prices and gas taxes should never mix. Many are saying now's the time to raise gas taxes. What's the difference if we do it now, or if we did it when gas was $3 a gallon? When gas returns to $3 a gallon, we're still going to have higher gas taxes. It's like saying there's a store-wide sale, but they're going to raise the sales tax since you can afford it.
Collecting taxes on one thing to fund something else is a bad idea. Bureaucrats like to take money dedicated for a purpose and spend it on things of their liking. That's largely how we ended up with trillions of dollars in debt AND a crumbling infrastructure that could have been made state-of-the-art with those trillions.
If the system had been designed so that each major segment was tolled and governed by a highway authority, the system would be in much better shape today. Especially in places like Louisiana.
I agree with everything jbnv said. In addition to the above there are so many taxes out there that the federal and state governments should never be short on money. If we keep raising taxes on everything then we are going to turn into another "Europe". Gas taxes currently take out about $0.50 per gallon. Raising taxes does not help anyone except the government.
I remember a few years ago when gas was around $4.50 per gallon in California, but it was only $2.90 in Tijuana. Lots of people were going to Tijuana to fill up. The California state government got mad about it and started telling people that they were risking their lives to save money on gas. Most Californians ignored these warnings. Mexico rather than the US and California got tax money for their roads. I see lots of Ontario plated semi trailers, so I'm guessing plating trailers in Ontario is cheaper than doing it here in the US (more lost money).
Canada has higher gas taxes than the US, but many of their roads are just as bad, if not worse, than ours in the US. In all honesty it's mainly about how committed the government is to fixing our roads. If our roads were a priority then they'd be in way better shape than they are today. Texas seems pretty committed to having nice roads (I think their roads are very good in quality) and their taxes are way lower than New York's and California's. Even if we raised the gas tax I'm not sure our roads would actually improve in quality.
Quote from: Brandon on January 15, 2016, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 14, 2016, 11:27:46 PM
Once you make one cash lane available, you'll have a traffic jam miles long from people thinking they can use cash.
No, you don't. ISTHA has cash lanes available, and the longest the lines get is five vehicles. On most of the ramps, there is an exact change lane, but it's rarely used as over 85% of the tollway users use I-Pass or EZ Pass.
The ISTHA mainline tolls also have more than 1 cash lane available (and unless you work in the booth, I doubt you are watching them all the time to verify they never have more than 5 vehicles in a lane). Rarely are there backups on ramp plazas because there's a lot fewer vehicles using them.
I'll give them credit though to them for allowing someone to pay a missed toll without a fee or fine. However, at least they permit cash tolls in the first place. Houston's toll road doesn't, so it's exclusively ETC only, thus the fine.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2016, 12:03:05 PM
Quote from: Brandon on January 15, 2016, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 14, 2016, 11:27:46 PM
Once you make one cash lane available, you'll have a traffic jam miles long from people thinking they can use cash.
No, you don't. ISTHA has cash lanes available, and the longest the lines get is five vehicles. On most of the ramps, there is an exact change lane, but it's rarely used as over 85% of the tollway users use I-Pass or EZ Pass.
The ISTHA mainline tolls also have more than 1 cash lane available (and unless you work in the booth, I doubt you are watching them all the time to verify they never have more than 5 vehicles in a lane). Rarely are there backups on ramp plazas because there's a lot fewer vehicles using them.
I'll give them credit though to them for allowing someone to pay a missed toll without a fee or fine. However, at least they permit cash tolls in the first place. Houston's toll road doesn't, so it's exclusively ETC only, thus the fine.
I pass by a lot of them in my travels around Chicagoland. Usually there's not much of a line in the cash lanes on I-355 or I-88 east of Aurora. I-294 seems to lack lines with the exception of the two I-80 toll plazas (Plazas 43 and 45). Those two plazas, however, seem to have a lot of cross-country traffic that may or may not have transponders, as it is I-80 merging onto the Tri-State Tollway. The two I-88 toll plazas west of Aurora (DeKalb and Dixon) have more of a line, but not really much whenever I go past them (no more than 7 vehicles deep on one cash lane, and that's the only cash lane open).
Google's caught a few of them on Street View.
I'll use the Boughton Road Plaza 89 (the plaza I go through most often) on I-355 as an example (apparently the GSV vehicle has EZ Pass):
Southbound cash lanes & I-Pass exit lane (8/2015): https://goo.gl/maps/4bJZ2gy2cHR2 2 vehicles in the one open cash lane. North bound cash lanes have zero vehicles: https://goo.gl/maps/UPJSMxYqS7F2
Southbound I-Pass lanes (10/2012): https://goo.gl/maps/Vo1rHkTdSKM2 2 trucks and about 4 cars in the two open cash lanes. Northbound cash lanes (8/2012) have 1 truck and 2 cars: https://goo.gl/maps/VaJFR88Gmjm In 10/2012, they have 2 trucks (1 bobtail) and 2 cars: https://goo.gl/maps/VzXMKvj3o1S2
Northbound cash lanes & I-Pass entrance lanes (8/2015): https://goo.gl/maps/fwhsbZ6yvX22 Zero vehicles in the two open cash lanes. One bus approaching them if you turn GSV around. Southbound cash lanes have 1 truck and 2 cars: https://goo.gl/maps/6sEWP3dBBhy
Northbound I-Pass lanes have the cash side blocked by a truck. Southbound cash lanes have 1 car: https://goo.gl/maps/SzdZgcXjGFC2
For comparison, the two I-80 toll plazas:
Eastbound I-Pass lanes (7/2012): three cash lanes open with 6 cars, 3 cars with trailers, and 3 trucks: https://goo.gl/maps/T7qTVVcJAyM2
Eastbound cash lanes (10/2013): four cash lanes open with 1 truck, 2 pilot vehicles, and 1 oversized load: https://goo.gl/maps/YzAYoGphw2E2
Westbound I-Pass lanes (7/2012): three cash lanes open with 2 trucks, 1 car with trailer, and 3 trucks: https://goo.gl/maps/yf3rQEhkDCK2
Westbound cash lanes (7/2012): three cash lanes open with 5 trucks (1 bobtail), 13 cars, and 1 car with trailer: https://goo.gl/maps/fCC7A9aPgYQ2 That's really busy when compared to the others.
I think jeffandnicole fail to realize that, if the toll agency is a business, creating unnecessary hurdles to drawing in customers isn't the way to go about it.
You want as many people as possible to use your service to make even more money. Unless, they've decided dissuading users and charging exorbitant fines makes them more money than benefiting the most people possible.
And if that's your stance, then you seem to fail to understand what government is for. No wonder Texans don't like 'big government' if that's how they're treated by it.
And to say there's opportunities to drive around Houston without tolls is a bit misleading. I was just there in December. As long as you don't plan on traveling anywhere near a toll, you won't have a big need to use it. But, god forbid that's where you're headed if you're out of state. And that talk of 'how easy it is' to get a tag, fails to realize that it's not easy. I wasn't driving 40 miles round trip to go pick up a transponder for $4-$6 worth of tolls. Or, drive on it and pay the fine(s).
See, in DFW, there's ZipCash, where if you don't have a transponder you just pay a slightly higher toll price. $30 for what NTTA, etc can do for a few pennies is a bit of a money-grab. It does not cost that much in time and effort for $30. Sometimes PER TOLL.
And they should care about out-of-state users. As, those interactions with Houston's infrastructure would greatly change people's impressions of Texas and Houston if there's no usable way to get around the city without pre-purchasing a transponder. Which are conveniently located on the toll road frontage roads that you can't get to without a toll tag.
How often have you been to Houston? How often have you looked at a map of Houston?
There are two three 2di's that cross the city. There is a loop around downtown. All of these are free. There are a few other freeways that come out of the city. And many of the tollways have service roads that are free.
Someone can get from/through Houston to Galveston, San Antonio, Austin and Dallas all without having to pay a toll.
Who are these out-of-state people who absolutely have to use a toll road to get somewhere in Houston? Where are they going?
Quote from: jbnv on January 15, 2016, 05:06:59 PM
How often have you been to Houston?
Doesn't matter. If I travel somewhere even once, there should be an easy option for legally using the tollways.
Quote from: jbnv on January 15, 2016, 05:06:59 PMThere are two three 2di's that cross the city. There is a loop around downtown. All of these are free. There are a few other freeways that come out of the city. And many of the tollways have service roads that are free.
There are not enough freeway options in the suburbs to compliment the tollways. And how well timed are the stoplights on those service roads?
Quote from: jbnv on January 15, 2016, 05:06:59 PMSomeone can get from/through Houston to Galveston, San Antonio, Austin and Dallas all without having to pay a toll.
And if I need to visit someplace in the Houston suburbs?
Quote from: jbnv on January 15, 2016, 05:06:59 PMWho are these out-of-state people who absolutely have to use a toll road to get somewhere in Houston? Where are they going?
Doesn't matter. If some out-of-state person needs to use a tollway around Houston, they should have a legal option to do so. Perhaps Kansas should ban out-of-state cars from I-70 between K-7 and K-10, as the K-10 freeway can be used instead of I-70. Or Illinois can ban people from states without EZPass compatible transponders from I-355, I-88, IL 390, and the unmultiplexed sections of I-294. No reason the banned couldn't get around using the other roads in Chicagoland.
Quote from: Sykotyk on January 15, 2016, 01:46:01 PM
I think jeffandnicole fail to realize that, if the toll agency is a business, creating unnecessary hurdles to drawing in customers isn't the way to go about it.
You want as many people as possible to use your service to make even more money. Unless, they've decided dissuading users and charging exorbitant fines makes them more money than benefiting the most people possible.
And if that's your stance, then you seem to fail to understand what government is for. No wonder Texans don't like 'big government' if that's how they're treated by it.
And to say there's opportunities to drive around Houston without tolls is a bit misleading. I was just there in December. As long as you don't plan on traveling anywhere near a toll, you won't have a big need to use it. But, god forbid that's where you're headed if you're out of state. And that talk of 'how easy it is' to get a tag, fails to realize that it's not easy. I wasn't driving 40 miles round trip to go pick up a transponder for $4-$6 worth of tolls. Or, drive on it and pay the fine(s).
See, in DFW, there's ZipCash, where if you don't have a transponder you just pay a slightly higher toll price. $30 for what NTTA, etc can do for a few pennies is a bit of a money-grab. It does not cost that much in time and effort for $30. Sometimes PER TOLL.
And they should care about out-of-state users. As, those interactions with Houston's infrastructure would greatly change people's impressions of Texas and Houston if there's no usable way to get around the city without pre-purchasing a transponder. Which are conveniently located on the toll road frontage roads that you can't get to without a toll tag.
Totally agree with everything you said!
Nexus 5X
Quote from: jbnv on January 15, 2016, 05:06:59 PMWho are these out-of-state people who absolutely have to use a toll road to get somewhere in Houston? Where are they going?
Me and a million or so others live near Westpark Twy and 99. To go north to the Premium outlets we have to take a tollway. To go south towards Greatwood we (prefer) to take the tolled overpasses on 99. To go into town we take Westpark tollway. Going up to the northern suburbs or IAH I'd prefer to take the Beltway to avoid the horrendous 610 mess. Likewise to travel to/from Hobby or the Southeast suburbs and Galveston.
None of these can be done by our out of town guests and i cannot do any of those on a rental or loaner car (except the HCTRA portions by registering the plate on my account).
You're absolutely right about the freeways connecting Houston to all directions out of town, but fail to consider that Houston is a monstrous city that spans more than just 610 or the freeway corridors (which become VERY spread out outside of the Beltway). Tollways are a convenience to bypass or go between freeways to reduce travel time (mostly in the burbs), hence their existence and hence why people spend money using them. The point of the tollways are for people who use them to pay for them, rather than the federal government.
It definitely isn't a necessity for me to use tollways as there are always free alternatives. But the added hassle of weaving through feeder roads or major thoroughfares and waiting through traffic lights justifies paying the tolls. If non transponder drivers too want to use the toll roads for convenience, I don't see why they should be discouraged with the fines and hassles of becoming eligible to use the roads. Especially if it helps keep the toll rates from increasing more than they ever had (can't prove this but one can only hope).
Nexus 5X
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 14, 2016, 01:26:38 PM
Quote from: rte66man on January 13, 2016, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Chris on January 11, 2016, 09:09:22 AM
From 2000 to 2015, $ 358 million in unpaid tolls/fees/fines have been accumulated in Harris County. But the actual unpaid tolls are only $ 22 million, the rest are fees and fines, mostly by HCTRA.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Harris-County-racks-up-358M-in-unpaid-tolls-6748471.php
Last year I was in Houston and needed to get from IAH to Katy. I took the Sam Houston toll road there and back. No HCTRA tag and no cash option. Got a bill in the mail for the $6.00 toll PLUS a $30 fine.
So, what you're saying is you ignored this: https://goo.gl/maps/VebfTJoQ29w
What you're also saying is that you thought you could get away without having to pay a toll at all, and decided not to check out their webpage ( https://www.hctra.org/eztagstore/violatorLoginDisplay.do ) which would have provided you with the ability to call them to make a payment prior to the invoice being sent to you.
We'll say that you didn't realize the tollway didn't accept cash payments. You drove from the airport to Katy, and you never paid a cash toll. You then drove the highway again knowing what you experienced the first time. At this point, you clearly had intentions of not paying for your ride at all and hoping you weren't going to be invoiced for the trip, and are now simply complaining because you got caught.
No sympathies here.
Ooh it must be nice to be able to live other people's lives for them and read their minds. Are you really that anal that you go through all that preparation when you make a last-minute trip? There are ZERO signs that tell the out-of stater that an option exists to pay via phone. I fully expected to get a bill in the mail, but not for that that much.
My point is that the "fine" is unreasonable based on the percentage of toll collected. Go back and reread the original Chronicle article. If you have $358 million and only $22 million is from the actual toll charges, then you are gouging the public.
You know, that is a shame. No tolls means no one to collect it and that means no jobs for some. I work now for the Florida Turnpike and we get many tourists using the road who have no money. I know Florida gets more visitors than Houston does, but if they get the same ignorant people who do not exchange their money at the airport here who travel there, they will be in big trouble.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2016, 10:28:12 AM
Per the website, calling in to pay a toll is supposed to be a one time courtesy, not an opportunity to pay off a week's worth of trips.
Why should they waive a fine? You drove a toll road without the transponder as required.
All toll roads should have a non-transponder option. If not cash, then bill by mail at reasonable rates (basically, NOT A-25 and ON 407; should only be the cost of looking up the plate and mailing the bill and NOT A PENNY MORE). Transponder-only toll roads should be BANNED.
Quote
One of the nice things about electronically paying for tolls...to the transportation agency, that is...is that they are holding onto your money until you use the road, so they have use of that money for investing.
Some people wouldn't call that a "nice" thing. In fact, it is THE reason my parents still don't have E-ZPass.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 14, 2016, 01:26:38 PM
So, what you're saying is you ignored this: https://goo.gl/maps/VebfTJoQ29w
What you're also saying is that you thought you could get away without having to pay a toll at all, and decided not to check out their webpage ( https://www.hctra.org/eztagstore/violatorLoginDisplay.do ) which would have provided you with the ability to call them to make a payment prior to the invoice being sent to you.
We'll say that you didn't realize the tollway didn't accept cash payments. You drove from the airport to Katy, and you never paid a cash toll. You then drove the highway again knowing what you experienced the first time. At this point, you clearly had intentions of not paying for your ride at all and hoping you weren't going to be invoiced for the trip, and are now simply complaining because you got caught.
No sympathies here.
First, the sign says "last free exit", NOT "GTFO the road all who don't have a transponder". Doesn't even mention that there aren't booths. Plus, bill by mail is THE standard for non-transponder transactions on an AET toll road. If one drives under a gantry, they expect to wait for a bill to arrive in the mail and pay for it then, NOT to have to dig up a phone number and web form to pay a "violation" and beat the processing system to avoid a hefty fee. Even roadgeeks don't put that much work into their travels. The average traveler from booth land is more likely to forget they were even on a toll road entirely, at least until they get invoiced for the "no transponder tax".
Quote from: US 41 on January 15, 2016, 11:30:42 AM
Texas seems pretty committed to having nice roads (I think their roads are very good in quality) and their taxes are way lower than New York's and California's. Even if we raised the gas tax I'm not sure our roads would actually improve in quality.
If you had seen what Texas roads were like prior to the great wave of construction that began after WWII, you would understand why we have such an obsession with having top quality roads today. Texas traditionally had the worst roads in the country up until then. The farther away you got from the big cities, the worse the roads were. Many of these obsolete stretches of highway were still in regular use until they were either reconstructed or bypassed well into the late 1960s - early 1970s. As a road geek, I spent much of my late teens through my 20s exploring many of the surviving original alignments. Many of them still exist today and a fair number of them are still in regular use for local traffic.
Do they have another sign stating "Transponders Only" or "No Cash" down there prior to the point of no return?
"No Cash" just means "No Cash". Dallas area has "No Cash" but you can just get a bill in the mail. You didn't 'violate' anything. You just chose the Pay-By-Mail option which costs a few cents more per transaction.
And to say that Houston requires $30 per transaction to find out who you are while DFW charges about $0.10-$0.30 is a big markup.
It's clear Houston area toll agencies have decided fining non-transponder users into oblivion is a better economic decision than to have more drivers simply paying a slightly elevated toll for Pay-By-Mail.
I mean, $22 million in toll transactions equals a 'potential' 10x+ return on the original charges.
Quote from: Sykotyk on January 16, 2016, 04:02:09 PM
"No Cash" just means "No Cash". Dallas area has "No Cash" but you can just get a bill in the mail. You didn't 'violate' anything. You just chose the Pay-By-Mail option which costs a few cents more per transaction.
And to say that Houston requires $30 per transaction to find out who you are while DFW charges about $0.10-$0.30 is a big markup.
It's clear Houston area toll agencies have decided fining non-transponder users into oblivion is a better economic decision than to have more drivers simply paying a slightly elevated toll for Pay-By-Mail.
I mean, $22 million in toll transactions equals a 'potential' 10x+ return on the original charges.
Tolls should not be making a profit for anyone. Tolls should be used strictly for maintaining / improving the roadway. Pay by mail should be an option on every electronic toll road. Ripping people off with $30 fees should not be an option and should be made illegal by the state or federal government.
Quote from: US 41 on January 16, 2016, 09:41:55 PM
Quote from: Sykotyk on January 16, 2016, 04:02:09 PM
"No Cash" just means "No Cash". Dallas area has "No Cash" but you can just get a bill in the mail. You didn't 'violate' anything. You just chose the Pay-By-Mail option which costs a few cents more per transaction.
And to say that Houston requires $30 per transaction to find out who you are while DFW charges about $0.10-$0.30 is a big markup.
It's clear Houston area toll agencies have decided fining non-transponder users into oblivion is a better economic decision than to have more drivers simply paying a slightly elevated toll for Pay-By-Mail.
I mean, $22 million in toll transactions equals a 'potential' 10x+ return on the original charges.
Tolls should not be making a profit for anyone. Tolls should be used strictly for maintaining / improving the roadway. Pay by mail should be an option on every electronic toll road. Ripping people off with $30 fees should not be an option and should be made illegal by the state or federal government.
Ummm, really?? The very concept of privatization of highways through tolling is that "private" roads generating private profits would be more "efficient" and less costly than publically financed infrastructure. If there wasn't a profit in it, it wouldn't be privatized.
The problem is that there is simply too many ways for the toll providers to gouge the users. For one, they could set the toll rates so high that only high-rent persons use the roadway and all others are shunted to lesser public roadways (the "Lexus lanes" phenomenon). Or, they can use "non-compete" clauses preventing any public infrastructure improvements that would conflict with the monopoly of that private roadway.
"Pay by mail" does sound like a breeze to those used to paying other bills....except when the roadways they are being charged for were also built with majority public funds, and then converted to private just for the sake of the private contractors. At least with traditional coin-drop, you see how much you are paying and don't have to wait until a bill shows up.
If there is that much concern over "shunpiking" or locals not paying their fair share, then the best solution is a flexible motor user fee that can be broadly adjusted to raise revenue for local infrastructure. Let the Feds pay 100% for true Interstate projects, then reinburse the states through revenue sharing later on.
Like I said before, toll projects from local public entities who can be held accountable through public agencies for cost controls are less objectionable from my perspective; but I still think that public infrastructure should be publically financed through universal public fiscal measures. A highway that has been built with public funds should stay public and accessible to all, not be converted to a private facility catering to a few who can pay $100/month for instant gratification. And, if you can't have cash-drop facilities, transponders should be made available to locals at low-cost to allow access to the ERT facility. And, rates should be publically accessible.
None of the Houston area toll roads is private. They're all run either by TxDOT or by the county. Given that, I agree that the tolls should be at the lowest level needed to pay for the road and administration, not to generate a profit so that politicians or bureaucrats have money to give to someone else. People who have to pay more for a public road should pay as little more as possible. For private roads, such as DFW-area managed lanes and southern SH 130, they obviously want to make a profit. In these cases, maximum toll rates are set in the development agreement.
On the topic, I've always thought that toll roads should have cash payment available, even if it's just a coin drop. Or we could call it on-site payment and accept cash or cards. If cash or card payments cost the toll authority more, they should raise the price to cover the toll and cost of collection. This higher price incentivizes regular users to get a tag. Managed lanes are an exception. It makes no sense to pay to go faster and stop to pay. But managed lanes are right beside free lanes and go to the same places, so those without a tag where one is required can just stay off of them.
I really think all three forms should be available (except on managed lanes). Those who don't want to get a bill, or don't want to pay rental company charges, can pay on the road. Those who don't have a tag and don't mind the bill can avoid the cash lanes and keep going. In each case, the price would reflect both the toll and the added cost of collection. I would agree with removal of cash payment if there were a national tag, the road has the option for billing by mail, and if drivers can register to be billed directly instead of through rental companies or use some toll payment application to accomplish that, or use a tag that can be moved to different cars.