Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[tolbs17]

where US-17 is near Willimaston, it floods easily in that area. Guess it's time to make it similar to the Washington Bypass of how it was built. South of Cedar Landing Rd.

[sparker]

If you went with US-17 first, you would at least establish a full freeway grade corridor between Norfolk and Raleigh. Then you can go back and upgrade the remaining substandard freeway segments. But I believe the official plan is the opposite, which will only push US-17, the unimproved portion, back longer.

I would love to know some traffic counts between Raleigh and the Norfolk region, which now has a smaller CSA population than Raleigh-Durham.

I know it's a major port and Navy installation, however i don't see industries in the Triangle that are huge receivers of components coming off boats at ports.

I'm going to assail the notion that NC's rural Northeastern Counties are significantly dead enough to have diverted Hampton Road's major lifelines and associations away from Raleigh making it far lessor important to Virginia's coast than Richmond and points North.

There are plenty of electronic manufacturers in the Triangle; enhanced access to any port that might be offloading semiconductors and other electronic components from East Asia (with Indonesia and Taiwan being the more prolific suppliers of such, with American companies such as Texas Instruments and Analog Devices having production plants in those places) would certainly make the supply chain (which has definitely been recently damaged/interrupted by COVID) a bit less convoluted.  Both I-87 and I-42, once their respective ports have been adequately dredged for Panamax-size vessels, would function as direct conduits from port to factory for small-lot (one or two containers at a time) shipments loaded on trucks rather than long-distance container trains. 

[architect77]

If you went with US-17 first, you would at least establish a full freeway grade corridor between Norfolk and Raleigh. Then you can go back and upgrade the remaining substandard freeway segments. But I believe the official plan is the opposite, which will only push US-17, the unimproved portion, back longer.

I would love to know some traffic counts between Raleigh and the Norfolk region, which now has a smaller CSA population than Raleigh-Durham.

I know it's a major port and Navy installation, however i don't see industries in the Triangle that are huge receivers of components coming off boats at ports.

I'm going to assail the notion that NC's rural Northeastern Counties are significantly dead enough to have diverted Hampton Road's major lifelines and associations away from Raleigh making it far lessor important to Virginia's coast than Richmond and points North.

There are plenty of electronic manufacturers in the Triangle; enhanced access to any port that might be offloading semiconductors and other electronic components from East Asia (with Indonesia and Taiwan being the more prolific suppliers of such, with American companies such as Texas Instruments and Analog Devices having production plants in those places) would certainly make the supply chain (which has definitely been recently damaged/interrupted by COVID) a bit less convoluted.  Both I-87 and I-42, once their respective ports have been adequately dredged for Panamax-size vessels, would function as direct conduits from port to factory for small-lot (one or two containers at a time) shipments loaded on trucks rather than long-distance container trains. 

I could be mistaken but I wouldn't think that the Morehead City Port would even plan to accommodate Panamex Ships. It's a small port, so is Wilmington compared to say Savannah which is now 3rd busiest in the country I believe. I don't know if 7-10 East Coast ports need to have that capability.

Here's an interesting fact about ships arriving at ports. While still out in the ocean, local port operators boat out to the ship and do all the driving in and around the port facility. They know the harbor the best and the long distance crews don't so they don't navigate the ships into any ports.

I never would have guessed that.

[sprjus4]

The Port of Virginia is the 3rd largest on the East Coast, behind the Port of Savannah and Port of New York/New Jersey.

[sparker]

If you went with US-17 first, you would at least establish a full freeway grade corridor between Norfolk and Raleigh. Then you can go back and upgrade the remaining substandard freeway segments. But I believe the official plan is the opposite, which will only push US-17, the unimproved portion, back longer.

I would love to know some traffic counts between Raleigh and the Norfolk region, which now has a smaller CSA population than Raleigh-Durham.

I know it's a major port and Navy installation, however i don't see industries in the Triangle that are huge receivers of components coming off boats at ports.

I'm going to assail the notion that NC's rural Northeastern Counties are significantly dead enough to have diverted Hampton Road's major lifelines and associations away from Raleigh making it far lessor important to Virginia's coast than Richmond and points North.

There are plenty of electronic manufacturers in the Triangle; enhanced access to any port that might be offloading semiconductors and other electronic components from East Asia (with Indonesia and Taiwan being the more prolific suppliers of such, with American companies such as Texas Instruments and Analog Devices having production plants in those places) would certainly make the supply chain (which has definitely been recently damaged/interrupted by COVID) a bit less convoluted.  Both I-87 and I-42, once their respective ports have been adequately dredged for Panamax-size vessels, would function as direct conduits from port to factory for small-lot (one or two containers at a time) shipments loaded on trucks rather than long-distance container trains. 

I could be mistaken but I wouldn't think that the Morehead City Port would even plan to accommodate Panamex Ships. It's a small port, so is Wilmington compared to say Savannah which is now 3rd busiest in the country I believe. I don't know if 7-10 East Coast ports need to have that capability.

Here's an interesting fact about ships arriving at ports. While still out in the ocean, local port operators boat out to the ship and do all the driving in and around the port facility. They know the harbor the best and the long distance crews don't so they don't navigate the ships into any ports.

I never would have guessed that.

While Morehead is presently a small port (and city), it is located at the east end of the North Carolina State Railroad (operated by NS), which was was built to be a high-capacity line capable of handling large volumes of cargo from that port to the NS main trunk in Greensboro.  OTOH, Wilmington, the in-state competition in regard to a port, is primarily CSX territory (NS' regional rival), so both NS and the State of North Carolina have something to gain by enhancing the potential for shippers to utilize Morehead.  That would involve dredging the port channel to accommodate the larger vessels that would be traversing the enlarged Panama Canal (the whole point of that exercise!). 

[fillup420]

While Morehead is presently a small port (and city), it is located at the east end of the North Carolina State Railroad (operated by NS), which was was built to be a high-capacity line capable of handling large volumes of cargo from that port to the NS main trunk in Greensboro.  OTOH, Wilmington, the in-state competition in regard to a port, is primarily CSX territory (NS' regional rival), so both NS and the State of North Carolina have something to gain by enhancing the potential for shippers to utilize Morehead.  That would involve dredging the port channel to accommodate the larger vessels that would be traversing the enlarged Panama Canal (the whole point of that exercise!).

The big issue with increasing rail traffic through Morehead, is the main line runs right down the middle of US 70 for a couple miles. Present traffic patterns see a few trains per week, adding to that has potential to create serious traffic problems, as there isn't really a good alt route to avoid the railroad.

[froggie]

Here's an interesting fact about ships arriving at ports. While still out in the ocean, local port operators boat out to the ship and do all the driving in and around the port facility. They know the harbor the best and the long distance crews don't so they don't navigate the ships into any ports.

I never would have guessed that.

Yes, we call them Harbor Pilots.  The Navy uses them too.

[Dirt Roads]

While Morehead is presently a small port (and city), it is located at the east end of the North Carolina State Railroad (operated by NS), which was was built to be a high-capacity line capable of handling large volumes of cargo from that port to the NS main trunk in Greensboro.  OTOH, Wilmington, the in-state competition in regard to a port, is primarily CSX territory (NS' regional rival), so both NS and the State of North Carolina have something to gain by enhancing the potential for shippers to utilize Morehead.  That would involve dredging the port channel to accommodate the larger vessels that would be traversing the enlarged Panama Canal (the whole point of that exercise!).

The big issue with increasing rail traffic through Morehead, is the main line runs right down the middle of US 70 for a couple miles. Present traffic patterns see a few trains per week, adding to that has potential to create serious traffic problems, as there isn't really a good alt route to avoid the railroad.

Back when I was working on the Triangle Transit (then TTA) Regional Rail Project, there was a surge in rail traffic to the Port of Morehead City both inbound and outbound (probably due to the signficant number of rail improvements over the North Carolina Rail Road corridor, but I'm not sure).  Anyhow, the North Carolina State Ports Authority announced a new project to build a monster port terminal in Southport.  That gave Norfolk Southern some access to the Port of Wilmington over CSX trackage, and port traffic on Norfolk Southern out of Morehead City seemed to drop off after that.  But the monster port terminal project faced stiff opposition and was eventually cancelled.  That project would have given Norfolk Southern full access to the new port facility.

Leap forward to last year.  In April 2020, NCSPA completed a major dredging of the turning basin for the Port of Wilmington that will allow UCLV ships (larger than Panamax) to access the port terminal.  But if I'm correct, Norfolk Southern only gets limited rail access to the Port of Wilmington.  But for that matter, I don't think that CSX has any access to the Port of Morehead City. 

[Full disclosure:  I'm an original employee of CSX who left in the early days, but still might benefit from this situation.  For more personal reasons, I prefer to stay neutral in such discussions].

[NJRoadfan]

I know NC was making moves to promote the Port of Wilmington as a big cargo destination for post-Panamax ships since it was nearly ready to accept them. This was in an attempt to steal market share from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. That window has since closed though due to PANYNJ completing dredging and raising the Bayonne Bridge to allow bigger vessels into Newark Bay.

[wdcrft63]

I know NC was making moves to promote the Port of Wilmington as a big cargo destination for post-Panamax ships since it was nearly ready to accept them. This was in an attempt to steal market share from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. That window has since closed though due to PANYNJ completing dredging and raising the Bayonne Bridge to allow bigger vessels into Newark Bay.

FWIW, here is what the Port of Wilmington says about itself:

"Our capability can enhance your profitability. For starters, the Port of Wilmington is strategically located on the East Coast of the United States within 700 miles of more than 70% of the U.S. industrial base. Recent and ongoing improvements to regional and national highway networks make surface transportation supporting the Port of Wilmington superior to neighboring ports. And CSX Transportation provides intermodal rail service with best-in-class transit times, as well as daily service for boxcar, tanker and general cargo services.

"The Port of Wilmington is one of few Southern ports with readily available berths and storage areas for containers and general cargo. Specifically, it offers terminal facilities serving container, bulk, breakbulk, and ro-ro operations. It offers a deep 42-foot navigational channel, nine berths with 6,768 feet of wharf frontage, four post-Panamax container cranes and three neo-Panamax container cranes.  Modern transit and warehouse facilities and the latest in cargo management technology provide a broad platform for supporting international trade to the fast-growing Southeast U.S. market."

Source: https://ncports.com/port-facilities/port-of-wilmington/

[sparker]

While Morehead is presently a small port (and city), it is located at the east end of the North Carolina State Railroad (operated by NS), which was was built to be a high-capacity line capable of handling large volumes of cargo from that port to the NS main trunk in Greensboro.  OTOH, Wilmington, the in-state competition in regard to a port, is primarily CSX territory (NS' regional rival), so both NS and the State of North Carolina have something to gain by enhancing the potential for shippers to utilize Morehead.  That would involve dredging the port channel to accommodate the larger vessels that would be traversing the enlarged Panama Canal (the whole point of that exercise!).

The big issue with increasing rail traffic through Morehead, is the main line runs right down the middle of US 70 for a couple miles. Present traffic patterns see a few trains per week, adding to that has potential to create serious traffic problems, as there isn't really a good alt route to avoid the railroad.

Question: are the tracks right in the middle of a traffic or center turn lane, or are they in a median?  If the former, that is an obvious recipe for problems; in a median, RR traffic can be largely dealt with by traffic signals and timing (cf. the UP main through Salem, OR).  Nevertheless, it's likely that the tracks would be relocated after the port is dredged and the cargo volume increases.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^
OK- looked at GSV for Morehead; the tracks are isolated in the median of US 70.  Not much area available to deal with here -- but a solution would be to shift the overall alignment for a two-way road with the RR tracks to the outside rather than down the middle -- and to raise or lower (depending upon the water table there) the tracks.  IIRC, I-42 is expected to terminate at the west end of Morehead rather than crossing the city, so a common project of grade separation wouldn't be forthcoming.  But since Morehead won't likely be a major factor in at least the first wave of Panamax port shifting, there's sufficient time for both the NCSRR and NCDOT to work out some sort of plan -- or even select a "no build" option and keep the situation as is (at least until such time as there's locally-originated pressure to address the problem).  What's on the ground today is probably adequate if any increased train movements are scheduled at night or at least in off-peak hours. 

[Dirt Roads]

While Morehead is presently a small port (and city), it is located at the east end of the North Carolina State Railroad (operated by NS), which was was built to be a high-capacity line capable of handling large volumes of cargo from that port to the NS main trunk in Greensboro.  OTOH, Wilmington, the in-state competition in regard to a port, is primarily CSX territory (NS' regional rival), so both NS and the State of North Carolina have something to gain by enhancing the potential for shippers to utilize Morehead.  That would involve dredging the port channel to accommodate the larger vessels that would be traversing the enlarged Panama Canal (the whole point of that exercise!).

The big issue with increasing rail traffic through Morehead, is the main line runs right down the middle of US 70 for a couple miles. Present traffic patterns see a few trains per week, adding to that has potential to create serious traffic problems, as there isn't really a good alt route to avoid the railroad.

Question: are the tracks right in the middle of a traffic or center turn lane, or are they in a median?  If the former, that is an obvious recipe for problems; in a median, RR traffic can be largely dealt with by traffic signals and timing (cf. the UP main through Salem, OR).  Nevertheless, it's likely that the tracks would be relocated after the port is dredged and the cargo volume increases.

One of the maritime issues related to the Port of Morehead City is that the Shackleford Banks and Bogue Banks shore up against the Gulf Stream, whereas further north on the Outer Banks shores up against the North Atlantic Current.  The two come together off the coast of Cape Hatteras to form the North Atlantic Gyre, which locals call the "Graveyard of the Atlantic" for a reason.  The sand moves constantly and ships take heed to stay far offshore in this area.  It's quite a pain for even a medium size ship to negotiate Blackbeard's haunting grounds to get into Beaufort Inlet to access the Port of Morehead City.  I've seen a handful of containers at the port, but it is mostly a bulk terminal plus a fair amount of military cargo.  It's fun to watch them offloading tanks while eating on the Morehead waterfront.

Fun fact:  Backed when Blackbeard roamed these parts, what's now called Beaufort Inlet was historically named Topsail Inlet.  Not sure how the name Topsail got relocated so far south, but the inlet at the south end of Topsail Island is called "New Topsail Inlet" to avoid further confusion.

[sparker]

A bit upthread I'd mentioned Salem, OR as a location where a rail main line ran down a narrow street median (SE/NE 12th); that was based upon an observation the last time I was in that city in the mid-2000's.  Seems that they've done a major modification job there, taking the RR line (still a single track) out of the median and moving it a bit to the right where the NB lane (it was 1+1 and the median with sidewalks on either side) originally was located.  Now it's a 3-lane street, including a bidirectional center left turn lane with a sidewalk on the SB (west) side; the rail line is immediately to the right, and a paved pedestrian/bike trail to the right (east) of that.  That seems to be a far better arrangement; applying such a concept to Morehead City, with greater capacity for US 70 traffic levels, wouldn't be physically problematic.  Also, the UP (former SP) line through Salem hosts several passenger trains per day, since it's on the Eugene-Portland-Seattle Amtrak "Cascade" service corridor; the daily Coast Starlight does one trip per direction through Salem as well; Morehead's traffic is a few freight trains per day serving the port facility at the east side of town. 

If the problematic maritime issues can be ameliorated (likely more extensive dredging at the Outer Banks), there doesn't seem to be any reason to think that once the channel into the port has been itself adequately dredged, the offload activities wouldn't increase significantly.  Apparently both the state political powers that be as well as NCDOT think there's potential here; why else would I-42 exist as a serving corridor?  Nevertheless, those same folks are hedging their bets with the I-87 project, since it would, again potentially, divert truck traffic from an existing major port through NE NC -- the whole purpose of the exercise.       

[architect77]

I have spent summer vacation every year and two entire summers at Atlantic Beach/Morehead City.

In high school and college summers I water-skied near Beaufort in Taylor's Creek and have never enjoyed going through the inlet out into the ocean. It's always scary and rough with the two bodies of water's different currents.

I hope that Morehead does not become a cargo ship destination. Tourism is so important to the area and there are already marine operations going on there like all those oprey-like jets doing vertical  takeoffs on Bogue Sound, etc.

All three beach regions of NC are unique and different from one another. Deep sea fishing and amateur boating in general is bigger there than either Wilmington or OBX. Anyone remember the Tall Ships Festival about 10 years ago? It's a great area that's unspoiled by big, dirty ships with their nasty bilge water releases. I want it to stay that way.

That RR track has been there in Morehead all my life even back when the area was like an outpost in the wilderness. Today's billions of dollars of vacation homes are everywhere, even along NC24 on the inland side of Bogue Sound.

There are so many ports on the East Coast. Are we forgetting that one in Charleston? It's quite big too.

Thanks for the harbor pilots definition.

I don't see the interstate 42 effort to be strongly linked to the Morehead deep water port. US70 is the main lifeline of Eastern NC and I doubt id there's another corridor so continuously developed for such a long distance. Basically the New Bern and Havelock areas have the only brief few spots without any businesses within sight and that's only true for a few minutes.

There's enough to avoid in the water now.

[tolbs17]

This project was to get some traffic off I-95 I assume. Roanoke Rapids can be a headache when driving through there.

[sparker]

This project was to get some traffic off I-95 I assume. Roanoke Rapids can be a headache when driving through there.

The whole concept of I-87, dating back to the inception of HPC #13 back in 1991, was to enhance the economic viability of NE NC by providing an alternate corridor for traffic heading south and southwest from the Hampton Roads ports.  The 2016 Interstate designation was simply another step in that process; any ensuing congestion relief to the longstanding US 58/I-95 corridor would have been just a side benefit, if that.   If warehouses and other job-creating enterprises crop up along the I-87 corridor once it's substantially in service, the corridor would have functionally done its job; if not, it would likely be considered something of a money pit, even though about 60% was already full freeway before the I-designation effort.   Most "after-market" Interstates are similarly predicated; those that aren't were often intended to correct previously overlooked connections (i.e. I-49, I-22).       

[Avalanchez71]

I noticed that there is no "warning" of I-87 beginning on US 64.  Seems rather capricious and arbitrary.

[fillup420]

I noticed that there is no "warning" of I-87 beginning on US 64.  Seems rather capricious and arbitrary.

It is. The designation as a whole is rather pointless.

[sparker]

I noticed that there is no "warning" of I-87 beginning on US 64.  Seems rather capricious and arbitrary.

It is. The designation as a whole is rather pointless.

It's purely technical in nature; the signage on WB US 64 begins near Knightsdale where the more recently built -- to Interstate standards -- section begins.  It echoes the previous I-495 signage, erected under the same criteria, but with the addition of I-87 trailblazing over I-440 from the I-40 junction.  The value of the whole corridor is a subject that likely will be vigorously debated in this (and other) threads until either it is built or somehow deleted.   

[sprjus4]

And also important to add, any value that would come from such corridor will likely not be visible until the entire interstate (i.e. upgrades along US-64 and US-17 to bring them to 70 mph interstate standards throughout) is complete between I-40 and I-64.

[tolbs17]

And also important to add, any value that would come from such corridor will likely not be visible until the entire interstate (i.e. upgrades along US-64 and US-17 to bring them to 70 mph interstate standards throughout) is complete between I-40 and I-64.

Like widen the interchanges in Rocky Mount. Make it more of a rural freeway design.

[sprjus4]

And also important to add, any value that would come from such corridor will likely not be visible until the entire interstate (i.e. upgrades along US-64 and US-17 to bring them to 70 mph interstate standards throughout) is complete between I-40 and I-64.

Like widen the interchanges in Rocky Mount. Make it more of a rural freeway design.

That's not what I'm referring to...

[fillup420]

And also important to add, any value that would come from such corridor will likely not be visible until the entire interstate (i.e. upgrades along US-64 and US-17 to bring them to 70 mph interstate standards throughout) is complete between I-40 and I-64.

I don't think there will be any noticeable benefit. Most of that corridor is already a 70mph freeway. All of the 64 portion is, save for the small section just before JCT US 17. Most of 17 is now as well, and the sections that aren't still flow pretty smoothly. I-87 is such a waste of effort for a corridor that is already more than sufficient for the traffic counts.

[sprjus4]

https://www.hrtpo.org/uploads/docs/050421%20FTAC%2007%20Hampton%20Roads%20Highway%20Access%20Study.pdf

The HRTPO (Hampton Roads Transportation Planning Organization) is planning to conduct a study in FY22 to evaluate different proposals to improve highway access from the region to the north, west, and south.

Improvements have been proposed for many of the corridors that provide access to and from Hampton Roads. Some of these improvements include widening I-64 between Richmond and Williamsburg, replacing all or portions of Routes 58 and 460 with limited-access facilities, and building I-87 to and from North Carolina.

HRTPO staff will be preparing a study in FY22 to compare proposed improvements to these corridors based on the overall collective impact on the Hampton Roads region.

A. Background
The main highways linking Hampton Roads to the outside are (counterclockwise):
- US 13 North (via Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel)
- US 17 North
- I-64 West
- US 460 West
- US 58 West
- US 17 South (leading to I-87 proposed in North Carolina)
- VA 168 South

Improvements have been proposed to each of these corridors. Given limited transportation funds, the purpose of this effort is to compare these improvements using costs and benefits. Each corridor serves one or more areas outside of Hampton Roads: North, West, or South. Corridors serving the same area will be compared to each other. For example, US 13 North, US 17 North, and I-64 West all serve the North area.

B. Work Elements (WE)
Proposed work activities for FY22:
1. Identify corridors serving outside areas.
2. By area served, compare the current usage of competing highways:
       o Total vehicle volume
       o Truck volume
       o Port truck volume
3. Compare areas by port-related origins/destinations.
4. By area served, compare current travel times for competing highways.
       o Based on future scenarios of volumes, congestion, and signalization, estimate and compare future travel times for competing highways.
5. Identify planned improvements (with costs) by corridor.
6. Consider other measures, e.g. safety and economic development opportunities.
7. By area served, prioritize corridors based on the overall collective impact for our region.