Pavement Markings

[jakeroot]

College Blvd in Clute, TX has  some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error at a mall entrance!

You may be stunned to learn that there are still parts of the US with white center lines. N Huson St in Tacoma, WA for instance.

From my experience, there are enough other clues to prevent dangerous situations like wrong-way driving. That's typically the case for most situations like what you've linked to.

[CoreySamson]

... there are enough other clues to prevent dangerous situations like wrong-way driving. That's typically the case for most situations like what you've linked to.

Yeah I totally agree, but it still feels weird.

[JoePCool14]

College Blvd in Clute, TX has  some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error at a mall entrance!

Off topic, but if you turn the camera 180 degrees towards the nearby intersection, that signal has some of the sloppiest wiring I think I've ever seen, for the U.S. anyway.

[deathtopumpkins]

What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error at a mall entrance!

Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.

[mrsman]

What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error at a mall entrance!

Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.

I don't expect good markings or good signage at private parking lots.  They really seem to do their own thing.

[MCRoads]

College Blvd in Clute, TX has  some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error at a mall entrance!

It is infuriatingly common for private parking lots to just use yellow for EVERYTHING. I'm guessing it is cheaper to just use 1 color, instead of 2. Not much anyone can do about it, as the MUTCD doesn't apply to privately owned land.

[kphoger]

Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.

According to whom are they supposed to?

[jakeroot]

Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.

According to whom are they supposed to?

Yeah, I'm not aware of any actual written rules.

But it may be an unwritten rule of sorts. Needlessly confusing markings or signage leading to a crash could be cause for negligence. Think something like a Japanese grocery store installing Japanese stop signs in their parking lots, and a driver accidentally interpreting it as a yield sign, failing to stop and then T-boning another car. We're talking very low speeds but shit happens, you know.

My house growing up had a long set of stairs to reach the front door. Although we had no legal requirement to do so, we eventually installed high-traction surfacing on the steps after a couple delivery people fell on the slick steps. It was suggested by someone so we could avoid getting sued for dangerous something-or-other.

[stevashe]

College Blvd in Clute, TX has  some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white.

If you go back in the street view history you can see the lines used to be white but have gradually faded away to reveal yellow lines underneath. This makes me think this used to be a 2 lane undivided road and they simply painted the white lines on top of the yellow without scrubbing them first. Nice going on the city's part to fail to maintain the markings for long enough to have that happen

[mass_citizen]

College Blvd in Clute, TX has  some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error at a mall entrance!

It is infuriatingly common for private parking lots to just use yellow for EVERYTHING. I'm guessing it is cheaper to just use 1 color, instead of 2. Not much anyone can do about it, as the MUTCD doesn't apply to privately owned land.

But if the private land has public access, doesn't the MUTCD still apply?

[GaryV]

College Blvd in Clute, TX has  some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white.

If you go back in the street view history you can see the lines used to be white but have gradually faded away to reveal yellow lines underneath. This makes me think this used to be a 2 lane undivided road and they simply painted the white lines on top of the yellow without scrubbing them first. Nice going on the city's part to fail to maintain the markings for long enough to have that happen

Someone should go see if a fully-autonomous car driving in the rain can figure it out.

[billpa]

College Blvd in Clute, TX has  some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error at a mall entrance!

Off topic, but if you turn the camera 180 degrees towards the nearby intersection, that signal has some of the sloppiest wiring I think I've ever seen, for the U.S. anyway.

That IS awful. Someone just didn't care.

Pixel 2

[deathtopumpkins]

Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.

According to whom are they supposed to?

According to the manual itself. It's right there in §1A.07:

Standard:
01 The responsibility for the design, placement, operation, maintenance, and uniformity of traffic control devices shall rest with the public agency or the official having jurisdiction, or, in the case of private roads open to public travel, with the private owner or private official having jurisdiction. 23 CFR 655.603 adopts the MUTCD as the national standard for all traffic control devices installed on any street, highway, bikeway, or private road open to public travel (see definition in Section 1A.13). When a State or other Federal agency manual or supplement is required, that manual or supplement shall be in substantial conformance with the National MUTCD.

02 23 CFR 655.603 also states that traffic control devices on all streets, highways, bikeways, and private roads open to public travel in each State shall be in substantial conformance with standards issued or endorsed by the Federal Highway Administrator.

https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part1/part1a.htm
All throughout part 1 the manual repeatedly includes private roads open to public travel, and in the definitions section, the definition for "Private Road Open to Public Travel" specifically includes roads within shopping centers, although it does exclude the aisles themselves.

The MUTCD references 23 CFR § 655.603, which also specifically mentions shopping centers.
So in essence, according to federal law roads in mall parking lots need to comply with the MUTCD, though the actual parking aisles themselves do not.

[jakeroot]

I don't believe the MUTCD is legally enforceable.

[kphoger]

Thank you.

[deathtopumpkins]

I don't believe the MUTCD is legally enforceable.

I literally just linked to a federal law that says the MUTCD is the standard. Though as I said several replies ago, there is no enforcement mechanism for private property, because the only teeth the FHWA really has is withholding federal funding, which obviously doesn't apply here.

[jakeroot]

I don't believe the MUTCD is legally enforceable.

I literally just linked to a federal law that says the MUTCD is the standard. Though as I said several replies ago, there is no enforcement mechanism for private property, because the only teeth the FHWA really has is withholding federal funding, which obviously doesn't apply here.

Yes, I see. Maybe I need to read a little closer next time.

I would have thought another enforcement mechanism might be a lawsuit the constant threat of a lawsuit against the private property owner for failure to adhere to that federal law, in the event of an accident caused by confusing markings.

edit: specificity.

[Scott5114]

I would have thought another enforcement mechanism might be a lawsuit against the private property owner for failure to adhere to that federal law, in the event of an accident caused by confusing markings.

Well, that's not really an "enforcement mechanism". As in, nobody is proactively enforcing it. If someone gets in a crash and non-compliant markings are a factor, that federal law will probably be cited in a lawsuit, yes.

[jakeroot]

I would have thought another enforcement mechanism might be a lawsuit against the private property owner for failure to adhere to that federal law, in the event of an accident caused by confusing markings.

Well, that's not really an "enforcement mechanism". As in, nobody is proactively enforcing it. If someone gets in a crash and non-compliant markings are a factor, that federal law will probably be cited in a lawsuit, yes.

In a sense, it would be self-enforcement: either follow the MUTCD or risk litigation should an injury occur on your property.

[CardInLex]

I don't believe the MUTCD is legally enforceable.

Kentucky has a law stating that the state Secretary of Transportation shall promulgate a manual of uniform devices that any roadway (public or private) must follow. The secretary, through administrative regs, has stated the latest version of the national MUTCD is that manual.

So, at least for KY, the MUTCD is enforceable... However, no one actively enforces it.

[jakeroot]

Kentucky has a law stating that the state Secretary of Transportation shall promulgate a manual of uniform devices that any roadway (public or private) must follow.

How does the State of Kentucky define roads? I would be curious to what extent the MUTCD could apply to roads on private property. For instance, at what point does a parking aisle become a road? Is anything capable of permitting vehicular travel a road? Is my driveway a road? Should my driveway have a dead-end sign?

[CardInLex]

Kentucky has a law stating that the state Secretary of Transportation shall promulgate a manual of uniform devices that any roadway (public or private) must follow.

How does the State of Kentucky define roads? I would be curious to what extent the MUTCD could apply to roads on private property. For instance, at what point does a parking aisle become a road? Is anything capable of permitting vehicular travel a road? Is my driveway a road? Should my driveway have a dead-end sign?

Good question. Here is what I can find:

"Definition. "Private road open to public travel" means a private toll road or road, including any adjacent sidewalk that generally runs parallel to the road, within a shopping center, airport, sports arena, or other similar business or recreation facility that:
(1) Is privately owned, but on which the public is allowed to travel without access restrictions; and
(2) Does not include a road within private gated property, except for a gated toll road, in which access is restricted at all times, a parking area, driving aisle within a parking area, or a private grade crossing."

https://casetext.com/regulation/kentucky-administrative-regulations/title-603-transportation-cabinet-department-of-highways/chapter-5-traffic/section-603-kar-5050-uniform-traffic-control-devices