AARoads Forum

We touch on this in a lot of the threads.  Time to put it to a poll.  Interested to see the correlation.

Unpopular opinion here: If a city doesn't have a hospital, it can't be a primary control city.

Technically I'm option 4 in the poll, although I was once scheduled on a Greyhound bus itinerary that would have gone through Limon, but they ended up changing it so that I was on a different route instead. So there's an argument that I could have picked option 3.

Quote from: SkyPesos on November 25, 2021, 11:40:28 AM
Unpopular opinion here: If a city doesn't have a hospital, it can't be a primary control city.

I would say if it isn't the (or one of the) primary cities for a media market area, and/or it isn't one of the AAAA, AAA, AA, or A cities in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranally_city_rating_system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranally_city_rating_system) then it can't be a control city.

Quote from: ran4sh on November 25, 2021, 11:54:39 AM
I would say if it isn't the (or one of the) primary cities for a media market area, and/or it isn't one of the AAAA, AAA, AA, or A cities in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranally_city_rating_system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranally_city_rating_system) then it can't be a control city.

Lowell, MA? (I-495)

It's really for a different topic, but 3di should generally use the control cities of 2di that they connect to (With obvious exceptions such as a spur 3di in the direction where it ends and doesn't interchange with any more interstates).

I voted for option 4, though I have driven across the great plains/prairies on I-76/80, I-90, TCH 1 and TCH 16. My preference is for the primary city to be large and well-known, with smaller secondary cities for the cities/towns in between. For I-70, I would put Denver and Kansas City as the primary control cities, with Limon, Hays, Salina, Topeka (and maybe Lawrence?) as secondary cities. I'd also prefer most signs have both the primary and secondary city listed.

Quote from: 7/8 on November 25, 2021, 12:12:28 PM
I voted for option 4, though I have driven across the great plains/prairies on I-76/80, I-90, TCH 1 and TCH 16. My preference is for the primary city to be large and well-known, with smaller secondary cities for the cities/towns in between. For I-70, I would put Denver and Kansas City as the primary control cities, with Limon, Hays, Salina, Topeka (and maybe Lawrence?) as secondary cities. I'd also prefer most signs have both the primary and secondary city listed.

Yeah, I've never even heard of Limon before today, so I voted that way as well.

Limon: isn't that the flavor of Sprite?

Limon is a jumping off point to Colorado Springs which I've used a couple times.

I disagree with using both a primary and secondary control city on signage because of message loading concerns. However, what some forum members call "secondary control cities" could instead be used as the middle line of a mileage/distance sign (technically only the bottom line city is a control city).

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 03:18:48 PM
I just spent a weekend in Hays and my opinion on the I-70 control cities between Topeka and Denver has changed. What I think a lot of people may not understand from just looking at a map–I sure as hell didn't until I actually visited–is how empty western Kansas is. Not only is it empty in the sense of there being a lot of space between towns, but most of those towns are small enough there isn't much in the way of traveler services. We're talking multiple hours between McDonald'ses and Walmarts here. (I was thinking Russell, Hays, WaKeeney, Oakley, and Colby were all about the same size. They're very much not; Hays is way bigger than the rest of them.)

In that case, Hays absolutely makes sense as a control city because it's the only thing for hours in any direction that actually has some semblance of civilization. Miss Hays and your next halfway-decent stop is going to be Colby, 90 minutes to the west, or Salina, 90 minutes to the east. The towns in between just aren't big enough to support the sort of "small-town-on-an-Interstate" trappings you see in the other states.

I would imagine that anyone passingly familiar with the area would know where exactly where Hays is and why it's important. Now does that mean that first-time pass-through traffic would know where Hays and Limon are? Of course not. So I feel like the best way to handle this is to post both primary and secondary controls. "Hays/Denver" and "Limon/Denver" going westbound, "Limon/Topeka", "Hays/Topeka", and "Salina/Topeka" going eastbound. (Based on a cursory look at the map, a case could be made for including Colby, but I cried uncle at Oakley and retreated to Hays, so I have no first-hand experience there.) Both the primary and secondary controls need to be included on every sign, not just alternating or only posted on side ramps, to pound it into drivers' heads that "this town you have never heard of is important; ignore it at your own peril."

I'm fine with Hays as a control city. It has a university and a hospital or two. On the other hand, Limon has neither of those things.

Quote from: SkyPesos on November 25, 2021, 10:56:23 PM
I'm fine with Hays as a control city. It has a university and a hospital or two. On the other hand, Limon has neither of those things.

No one is stopping on a road trip for an education. :)

You can put me in group three.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2021, 03:18:48 PM
In that case, Hays absolutely makes sense as a control city because it's the only thing for hours in any direction that actually has some semblance of civilization. Miss Hays and your next halfway-decent stop is going to be Colby, 90 minutes to the west, or Salina, 90 minutes to the east. The towns in between just aren't big enough to support the sort of "small-town-on-an-Interstate" trappings you see in the other states.

As I think I've said in some other thread, this is not a reason to make something a control city or not. Indicating the availability of motorist services is for the various types of blue signs.

My own criterion for control city "status," for Interstate highways at least, is that they be a city that your average motorist will likely have heard of, as a way to collaborate and confirm directions on a route. Otherwise they serve no purpose.

As such, secondary control cities are unnecessarily supplementary, and as such, to be avoided, except perhaps when two different routes go to the same location, like I-80 and I-88 eastbound near the Quad Cities of Iowa and Illinois.

I tend to agree, but in that specific example the main difference between I-80 and I-88 is not the secondary cities, but rather the fact that I-88 is tolled.

Hopefully, there is not a fifth option:  Been to Limon due to commission to the Colorado Department of Corrections

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 25, 2021, 11:22:40 PM
Hopefully, there is not a fifth option:  Been to Limon due to commission to the Colorado Department of Corrections

That would be two extra options, depending on what you think of its control city status.  :-D

Quote from: SkyPesos on November 25, 2021, 11:40:28 AM
Unpopular opinion here: If a city doesn't have a hospital, it can't be a primary control city.

It's 19 minutes from one.  Plenty of places in Denver where you're 19 minutes away from a hospital.

Limon is the only city really in an otherwise middle of nowhere area. What would you use instead? Burlington? Burlington is bigger than Limon and near the Kansas state border on I-70. It's about 75 miles east of Limon.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 25, 2021, 11:22:40 PM
Hopefully, there is not a fifth option:  Been to Limon due to commission to the Colorado Department of Corrections

*sheepishly raises hand*

not a nice place.

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 26, 2021, 09:55:52 AM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 25, 2021, 11:22:40 PM
Hopefully, there is not a fifth option:  Been to Limon due to commission to the Colorado Department of Corrections

*sheepishly raises hand*

not a nice place.

Better than being in Florence!

My friend and I spent a night at a motel in Limon.  Found a decent breakfast the next morning.  It is the only city out in the middle of nowhere as Flint mentioned.  Limon as a control city is fine but I do like the idea of dual control cities on BGS's.

Rick

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2021, 08:30:13 AM
Limon is the only city really in an otherwise middle of nowhere area. What would you use instead? Burlington? Burlington is bigger than Limon and near the Kansas state border on I-70. It's about 75 miles east of Limon.

There's no real reason, I don't think, for control cities to be that local. I would go with Denver westbound and Kansas City eastbound.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 26, 2021, 10:31:52 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2021, 08:30:13 AM
Limon is the only city really in an otherwise middle of nowhere area. What would you use instead? Burlington? Burlington is bigger than Limon and near the Kansas state border on I-70. It's about 75 miles east of Limon.

There's no real reason, I don't think, for control cities to be that local. I would go with Denver westbound and Kansas City eastbound.

That boils back to the state's choosing the control cities, Colorado seems to think that Limon is important enough to be a control city. If it were a national thing I could probably see Kansas City and Denver being the control cities. But they are also 600 miles apart as well but I can see your point as I-70 is a long haul Interstate and a lot of people use it to cross the country as at least part of their route.

Off topic but I'm surprised that I-70 didn't go to Sacramento.

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2021, 10:57:54 AM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 26, 2021, 10:31:52 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 26, 2021, 08:30:13 AM

Limon is the only city really in an otherwise middle of nowhere area. What would you use instead? Burlington? Burlington is bigger than Limon and near the Kansas state border on I-70. It's about 75 miles east of Limon.

There's no real reason, I don't think, for control cities to be that local. I would go with Denver westbound and Kansas City eastbound.

That boils back to the state's choosing the control cities, Colorado seems to think that Limon is important enough to be a control city.

If we're not allowed to critique the decisions of state transportation agencies, then our lives have no meaning.  :-D

It's a major crossroads.  You can feasibly get to Colorado Springs. Denver, Salina/Topeka/Kansas City, or Amarillo from there.  Let it be.

But I am not against dual control cities.  So put Kansas City underneath it if it makes you feel any better.  Reduce the font size slightly and use Series D if you don't want to use larger signs.

Couldn't this debate be ended once and for all by Limon agreeing to rename itself East Denver?

Limon has value as a control city. Burlington does not.

So after about a day and a half of poll selections, it's pretty much panned out how I thought it would.  Most of the people who have been through the area agree with the status quo.  For those that are against the status quo, a larger portion have never actually been here.

Quote from: jayhawkco on November 26, 2021, 10:00:13 AM

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 26, 2021, 09:55:52 AM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 25, 2021, 11:22:40 PM
Hopefully, there is not a fifth option:  Been to Limon due to commission to the Colorado Department of Corrections

*sheepishly raises hand*

not a nice place.

Better than being in Florence!

i was a canon city facility for a while and could see it from there. might not be so bad tho. limon was.... chaotic, a lot of unsavory stuff going on whereas florence, just kick back. opinions could vary, though. i don't recommend any of them, though. behave yourself, and you'll never have to deal with it. </std-psa>

I personally am done with the Limon debate. There's no right or wrong answer. It's all opinion.

I still don't understand why anyone would skip Topeka as a control city. It's a state capital, and not one of those weird little ones like Jeff City or Pierre. It's a city of over 100,000 people, and the fifth-largest city in Kansas (third-largest if you skip suburbs of Kansas City). While it's sort of close to Kansas City, KC doesn't claim it and considers it its own thing.

Quote from: thspfc on November 27, 2021, 11:48:12 AM
I personally am done with the Limon debate. There's no right or wrong answer. It's all opinion.

I'm glad we got this on record.  :-D

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2021, 12:06:49 PM
I still don't understand why anyone would skip Topeka as a control city. It's a state capital, and not one of those weird little ones like Jeff City or Pierre. It's a city of over 100,000 people, and the fifth-largest city in Kansas (third-largest if you skip suburbs of Kansas City). While it's sort of close to Kansas City, KC doesn't claim it and considers it its own thing.

The metropolitan statistical areas for Topeka and Kansas City border one another, and the population of the Kansas City one dwarfs that of Topeka by an order of magnitude.

Moreover, being a state capital doesn't really matter for wayfinding in and of itself. That said, it does increase the likelihood that people would have heard of it. And for that reason, I wouldn't be too bothered if it were used as a control city, even if I wouldn't pick it myself.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 27, 2021, 12:15:47 PM
Moreover, being a state capital doesn't really matter for wayfinding in and of itself.

Yes, it does. Thanks to elementary school geography classes, the one city in every state anyone knows is the capital. (For anyone outside the Northeast, the first city in Vermont you're going to think of is Montpelier, even though that's nowhere near its most important city.) Signing "Topeka" is exactly as good as signing "Kansas" for most people, except it's more specific for people who have a destination in Kansas.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 27, 2021, 12:15:47 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2021, 12:06:49 PM
I still don't understand why anyone would skip Topeka as a control city. It's a state capital, and not one of those weird little ones like Jeff City or Pierre. It's a city of over 100,000 people, and the fifth-largest city in Kansas (third-largest if you skip suburbs of Kansas City). While it's sort of close to Kansas City, KC doesn't claim it and considers it its own thing.

The metropolitan statistical areas for Topeka and Kansas City border one another, and the population of the Kansas City one dwarfs that of Topeka by an order of magnitude.

Moreover, being a state capital doesn't really matter for wayfinding in and of itself. That said, it does increase the likelihood that people would have heard of it. And for that reason, I wouldn't be too bothered if it were used as a control city, even if I wouldn't pick it myself.

The metro areas of Detroit and Flint come close to touching each other same with Flint and Saginaw which happen to be in the same media market but that doesn't stop MDOT from using Flint and Saginaw on I-75. To me the control city should be the city that is at the next major junction.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2021, 12:22:14 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 27, 2021, 12:15:47 PM
Moreover, being a state capital doesn't really matter for wayfinding in and of itself.

Yes, it does. Thanks to elementary school geography classes, the one city in every state anyone knows is the capital. (For anyone outside the Northeast, the first city in Vermont you're going to think of is Montpelier, even though that's nowhere near its most important city.) Signing "Topeka" is exactly as good as signing "Kansas" for most people, except it's more specific for people who have a destination in Kansas.

I agree. Almost always the state capital is going to be the most important city in a state but there are a few exceptions I think. Topeka is good as a control city on I-70.

Whats a Limon, and does it go well with gin?

Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 27, 2021, 02:39:12 PM
Whats a Limon, and does it go well with gin?

Mixture of lime and lemon as portrayed in 1970s Sprite commercials.

Quote from: Big John on November 27, 2021, 03:41:25 PM

Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 27, 2021, 02:39:12 PM
Whats a Limon, and does it go well with gin?

Mixture of lime and lemon as portrayed in 1970s Sprite commercials.

Limon means Lemon in Spanish

Quote from: US71 on November 27, 2021, 08:16:59 PM

Quote from: Big John on November 27, 2021, 03:41:25 PM

Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 27, 2021, 02:39:12 PM
Whats a Limon, and does it go well with gin?

Mixture of lime and lemon as portrayed in 1970s Sprite commercials.

Limon means Lemon in Spanish

I am fairly sure no lemon trees ever grew in Limon.

The Wikipedia article on Limon notes that the Ports-to-Plains Corridor passes through Limon. So maybe someday we'll see a sign in Amarillo for I-27 north, Limon.  :-D

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2021, 08:44:12 PM
The Wikipedia article on Limon notes that the Ports-to-Plains Corridor passes through Limon. So maybe someday we'll see a sign in Amarillo for I-27 north, Limon.  :-D

Limon could possibly become a crossroads in the interstate highway system, with I-27 from the south, and maybe an x70 to Colorado Springs, depending on how fast Colo Springs continues to grow.

Limon has a number of quaint motels in addition to a lot of big names.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2021, 12:22:14 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 27, 2021, 12:15:47 PM
Moreover, being a state capital doesn't really matter for wayfinding in and of itself.

Yes, it does. Thanks to elementary school geography classes, the one city in every state anyone knows is the capital.

This is pretty much what my full quote said. To wit:

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 27, 2021, 12:15:47 PM
Moreover, being a state capital doesn't really matter for wayfinding in and of itself. That said, it does increase the likelihood that people would have heard of it. And for that reason, I wouldn't be too bothered if it were used as a control city, even if I wouldn't pick it myself.

And so, I'm not sure if there's a nuance here that you're trying to insist upon, or if you're just trying to emphasize your overall disagreement with me here.

I'm emphasizing that, because of a state capital being half of a paired list in most people's minds, a state capital can be used as a synonym for an entire state, even when it's a small city. So if "Hays" is seen as undesirable because unfamiliar motorists are not likely to associate it with Kansas (and thus the east, coming from Denver), Topeka is a good choice because for people who just need a sign saying "toward Kansas" it means the same thing. At the same time, someone with a specific destination elsewhere in Kansas, like Dodge City, is given the additional information that this route may not be the best route for them, as it heads to a part of the state that they are not interested in visiting.

TLDR: in before someone says 'just sign "Kansas"'

Limon/Kansas City or Limon/Kansas

Problem solved. Don't you dare use it westbound unless it's with Denver. Eastbound is fine as there is nothing out there in the plains.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:19:47 AM
Problem solved. Don't you dare use it westbound unless it's with Denver. Eastbound is fine as there is nothing out there in the plains.

But Limon makes more sense as a westbound control city. That's where WB traffic peels away on US 24 from I-70 for Colorado Springs, which is a major Colorado metro area (city population about half a million) even if not as much as Denver. My own travels west on I-70 usually take me to Colorado Springs or other southern Colorado destinations, rather than Denver. Seeing Limon on a BGS reassures Colorado Springs-bound WB travelers, after the intense boredom of western Kansas and far eastern Colorado, that they haven't missed their turn from I-70.

EB, while Limon is a good watering hole, it's not much different from Burlington CO, Goodland KS, or any other western Kansas destination or stopover. And my guess is that EB Limon is not a major turning point for traffic heading southeast, where there's no metro area nearly as large as Colorado Springs.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2021, 08:44:12 PM
The Wikipedia article on Limon notes that the Ports-to-Plains Corridor passes through Limon. So maybe someday we'll see a sign in Amarillo for I-27 north, Limon.  :-D

The wikipedia page also calls Limon a Hub City.

I have driven past it on I-70 and don't lean one way or the other.

Quote from: oscar on November 28, 2021, 05:03:46 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:19:47 AM
Problem solved. Don't you dare use it westbound unless it's with Denver. Eastbound is fine as there is nothing out there in the plains.

But Limon makes more sense as a westbound control city. That's where WB traffic peels away on US 24 from I-70 for Colorado Springs, which is a major Colorado metro area (city population about half a million) even if not as much as Denver. My own travels west on I-70 usually take me to Colorado Springs or other southern Colorado destinations, rather than Denver. Seeing Limon on a BGS reassures Colorado Springs-bound WB travelers, after the intense boredom of western Kansas and far eastern Colorado, that they haven't missed their turn from I-70.

That's like saying Findlay should be signed as a primary control city in Toledo over Dayton on I-75 SB because OH 15 breaks off here for traffic heading towards Columbus.

Quote from: SkyPesos on November 28, 2021, 08:20:33 AM

Quote from: oscar on November 28, 2021, 05:03:46 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:19:47 AM
Problem solved. Don't you dare use it westbound unless it's with Denver. Eastbound is fine as there is nothing out there in the plains.

But Limon makes more sense as a westbound control city. That's where WB traffic peels away on US 24 from I-70 for Colorado Springs, which is a major Colorado metro area (city population about half a million) even if not as much as Denver. My own travels west on I-70 usually take me to Colorado Springs or other southern Colorado destinations, rather than Denver. Seeing Limon on a BGS reassures Colorado Springs-bound WB travelers, after the intense boredom of western Kansas and far eastern Colorado, that they haven't missed their turn from I-70.

That's like saying Findlay should be signed as a primary control city in Toledo over Dayton on I-75 SB because OH 15 breaks off here for traffic heading towards Columbus.

ODOT doesn't use a control city at all for exit 156 going southbound but exit 157 which is OH-12 has Columbus Grove as a control city. Northbound the control city is Carey which is a small town where US-23 and OH-15 intersect. If you are coming from downtown Toledo it wouldn't be much more time to just jump on I-280 to OH-420 to US-20/23 to US-23 to Fostoria. I'd jump off at that point though and take OH-18 to OH-587 to OH-53 back to US-23 north of Upper Sandusky, saves you a few miles and minutes to do that. I'm a master at shortcutting and shunpiking.

As I said before in the other thread, I think people need to actually visit this area, or at least spend a good amount of time trolling around on Google Maps, before forming an opinion on it. This is an area where it's an hour's drive between McDonald'ses.

(https://i.imgur.com/xkvxXYy.png)

Looking at it on a map, it is very easy to see the towns along the route and make assumptions that they're like towns in other states where there's likely to be a gas station or fast food joint or something. They aren't. I went through Grinnell because it was the cheapest way to grab Sherman County (and I got to clinch a K-route for the trouble), and it's basically a big honking grain elevator, a grade school, some houses, and pretty much nothing else.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:19:47 AM
Limon/Kansas City or Limon/Kansas

Problem solved. Don't you dare use it westbound unless it's with Denver. Eastbound is fine as there is nothing out there in the plains.

What's your justification for skipping over a state capital with 126,000 people in there?

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 28, 2021, 12:44:18 PM
This is an area where it's an hour's drive between McDonald'ses.

Can't find it on a forum search or even a site:aaroads Google search, but I remember someone saying that on the Northway, you can easily find a local sub/pizza place or a Dunkin, but McDonalds and their competitors are spaced farther apart. How far is it between any restaurants, even local ones?

Quote from: 1 on November 28, 2021, 12:51:14 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 28, 2021, 12:44:18 PM
This is an area where it's an hour's drive between McDonald'ses.

Can't find it on a forum search or even a site:aaroads Google search, but I remember someone saying that on the Northway, you can easily find a local sub/pizza place or a Dunkin, but McDonalds and their competitors are spaced farther apart. How far is it between any restaurants, even local ones?

It looks like some of the towns do have local restaurants. Quinter, for example, has the Center Pivot Restaurant & Brewery (if that's not a High Plains restaurant name I don't know what is), Melanie's Kitchen Asian Cuisine, and Farm House Cooking & Catering (which seems to correspond to a metal garage building, so it may just be a crank entry). However, all three of those are shown as closed today, probably because it's Sunday, so the whole town of Quinter would be of no help to someone passing through today. Also, none of these restaurants have paid for a blue service sign, so you just have to see them on Google Maps (which isn't much of an option if you're driving alone), or spend the time to get off and drive around town, to know they're there.

Kind of wondering, does South Dakota list Pierre as a control city on I-90 between Rapid City and Sioux Falls? I know it's a bit out of the way from I-90, but 1) it's a capital, and 2) only sizable city between Rapid City and Sioux Falls (unlike I-70 and Jeff City, where there's Columbia nearby).

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 28, 2021, 12:44:18 PM
As I said before in the other thread, I think people need to actually visit this area, or at least spend a good amount of time trolling around on Google Maps, before forming an opinion on it. This is an area where it's an hour's drive between McDonald'ses.

(https://i.imgur.com/xkvxXYy.png)

Looking at it on a map, it is very easy to see the towns along the route and make assumptions that they're like towns in other states where there's likely to be a gas station or fast food joint or something. They aren't. I went through Grinnell because it was the cheapest way to grab Sherman County (and I got to clinch a K-route for the trouble), and it's basically a big honking grain elevator, a grade school, some houses, and pretty much nothing else.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 28, 2021, 04:19:47 AM
Limon/Kansas City or Limon/Kansas

Problem solved. Don't you dare use it westbound unless it's with Denver. Eastbound is fine as there is nothing out there in the plains.

What's your justification for skipping over a state capital with 126,000 people in there?

Eh Topeka could work to

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 28, 2021, 12:44:18 PM
This is an area where it's an hour's drive between McDonald'ses.

Funny you mention this. The first time I ever went to this area I was driving up from Amarillo to Limon. I'm from the west, so I'm used to the wide open, empty expanses and huge distances between towns - and even I was struck that there was no McDonalds in the 140-mile, 2.5-hour stretch between Dalhart and Lamar.

I'm down to make Goodland the next control city on EB I-70 after Limon. Just give it a city close to the border. Actually Goodland has more to offer than Limon and I have been trolling Google Maps around this area looking at the area and Limon is a good choice for a control city actually and I support Goodland too.

Quote from: SkyPesos on November 28, 2021, 01:09:46 PM
Kind of wondering, does South Dakota list Pierre as a control city on I-90 between Rapid City and Sioux Falls? I know it's a bit out of the way from I-90, but 1) it's a capital, and 2) only sizable city between Rapid City and Sioux Falls (unlike I-70 and Jeff City, where there's Columbia nearby).

To answer that question, no, South Dakota doesn't list Pierre as a control city on I-90 because it's too far away from the interstate. They go for Rapid City WB and Sioux Falls EB as control cities.

Quote from: US 89 on November 28, 2021, 06:01:04 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 28, 2021, 12:44:18 PM
This is an area where it's an hour's drive between McDonald'ses.

Funny you mention this. The first time I ever went to this area I was driving up from Amarillo to Limon. I'm from the west, so I'm used to the wide open, empty expanses and huge distances between towns - and even I was struck that there was no McDonalds in the 140-mile, 2.5-hour stretch between Dalhart and Lamar.

There's a long stretch in South Dakota without a McDonald's insight. From Rapid City heading EB, the next one is in Chamberlain, a 203 miles (2 hrs 45 mins) drive.

Topeka makes perfect sense as a control city. It has a 3DI bypass and is also a major intersection of I-70 and the Kansas Turnpike.

As for signing other state capitals, Frankfort is an afterthought on I-64 in Kentucky. It's listed in Lexington only because the signs at the I-64/I-75 interchanges list not only the control city, but the next local destination (Frankfort, Georgetown, Winchester, Richmond) while there's scant mention of Frankfort in Louisville, and really none on I-64 eastbound until you get past Shelbyville.

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 28, 2021, 06:17:03 PM
I'm down to make Goodland the next control city on EB I-70 after Limon. Just give it a city close to the border. Actually Goodland has more to offer than Limon and I have been trolling Google Maps around this area looking at the area and Limon is a good choice for a control city actually and I support Goodland too.

I'll take Colby in both directions.

Quote from: jayhawkco on November 28, 2021, 06:52:30 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on November 28, 2021, 06:17:03 PM
I'm down to make Goodland the next control city on EB I-70 after Limon. Just give it a city close to the border. Actually Goodland has more to offer than Limon and I have been trolling Google Maps around this area looking at the area and Limon is a good choice for a control city actually and I support Goodland too.

I'll take Colby in both directions.

maybe this is something that's been mentioned before somewhere but i'm too lazy to look it up. but.....

... why not have 2 control cities -- a local (er) smallish one, and a bigger one. eb out of denver it could be limon -- goodland (or something), eb from kansas it could be limon - denver.

lol this is probably the most attention limon, co ever got

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo-M-QiEvM0&t=1s

He hates Limon, it's a running joke on his channel.

When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

I look at control cities from a practical standpoint. If I'm getting on an interstate, I want to know the best place within the next couple hours to find gas, restaurant, and hotel. Limon seems to fit that definition. East of the Mississippi, you're unlikely to ever need to use someplace as small as Limon, but out west it works.

A larger/better known city like Kansas City is too far to be practical, but if it's signed in addition to Limon (as opposed to instead of Limon) that's fine.

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

Maybe you could put "America" to guarantee that the control city matches where 100% of people are going.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 01:08:56 PM

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

Maybe you could put "America" to guarantee that the control city matches where 100% of people are going.

What if I'm driving to Canada or Mexico though?

Dumb question, but how do you even pronounce this name? I'm going back and forth between an authentic Spanish pronunciation, and "LIME-in".

I believe the argument for Limon being a primary cross-country Interstate control city is that it feels bigger than its population, and has a major junction and stuff?


In the Limon """metro area""" I count 10 fast food restaurants, 8 hotels, 2 truck stops, an airport you might be able to crash-land a helicopter on, and the junctions of I-70, US-287, and US-24.

In Kansas City metro area I count at least 200 hotels, at least 30 truck stops, probably 500 fast food restaurants, a top 50 largest airport in the US, and the junctions of I-70, I-35, I-29, I-49, US-69, US-169, US-71, US-50, US-40, US-24, and probably others I'm missing. Oh, and 1,276 times more people.

Once again, it's not a question of whether a place deserves to be a control city. It's a question of whether it's the best fit control city for the route. And even though Kansas City is a lot further away, I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I will bet money that at least 70% of cross-country travelers through Denver have no idea what or where Limon is. If the vast majority of the people the signs aim to educate are clueless, then the signs are unhelpful. Real life is not AARoads. Normal travelers don't care about or remember nowhere towns they pass through on I-70.

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

Why sign Colorado when Denver exists? Way more 70 west traffic is going to the Denver area than to Colorado Springs via US 24.

Quote from: kirbykart on July 26, 2022, 02:37:27 PM
Dumb question, but how do you even pronounce this name? I'm going back and forth between an authentic Spanish pronunciation, and "LIME-in".

The latter.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 02:28:03 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 01:08:56 PM

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

Maybe you could put "America" to guarantee that the control city matches where 100% of people are going.

What if I'm driving to Canada or Mexico though?

Damn, you got me. Better make it "Earth".

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 26, 2022, 03:09:58 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.

Why does that matter? How does putting Limon on a sign help you find gas/food/hotels as a traveler on I-70 in Denver?

Are there not like 30 other places to stop for gas/food/hotel between Denver and KC?

Limon is also only 90 miles away from Denver. How does "Limon" tell you that gas/food/hotels are 90 miles away (which, they aren't; by your logic Aurora should be signed along I-70 EB in Denver. Or even every exit that has those things).

If you want to say that KC is too far, that's at least a valid point. I disagree because I think more than one factor should be considered in posting control cities. But saying that Limon should be a control city because it has gas, food, and hotels is nonsense because KC has all of those things 50 times over.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 04:08:09 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 02:28:03 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 01:08:56 PM

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

Maybe you could put "America" to guarantee that the control city matches where 100% of people are going.

What if I'm driving to Canada or Mexico though?

Damn, you got me. Better make it "Earth".

Not sure why you had to berate me for my response. It made enough sense. It wouldn't be the first time a state has been used on a control city to give people a general idea where said direction of a highway is headed.

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 04:19:13 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 04:08:09 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 02:28:03 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 01:08:56 PM

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

Maybe you could put "America" to guarantee that the control city matches where 100% of people are going.

What if I'm driving to Canada or Mexico though?

Damn, you got me. Better make it "Earth".

Not sure why you had to berate me for my response. It made enough sense. It wouldn't be the first time a state has been used on a control city to give people a general idea where said direction of a highway is headed.

It wasn't the right decision any of the other times it's been done, either.

Destinations should be as reasonably close to a point as you can get. A city is the perfect size. Heck, when California was inventing their first freeway signage they used individual buildings as control points–I've seen 1954 signs with "Civic Center" as the control point.

The control point should be such that the road should be the best route for anyone going anywhere within the boundaries of that control point. If you blow the control point up to the size of a state, you lose so much precision that this cannot be universally true.

Furthermore, the official MUTCD standard on the subject says:

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD Section 2D.37Standard:
Except on approaches to interchanges (see Section 2D.45), the Destination (D1-1 through D1-3) sign (see Figure 2D-7), if used, shall be a horizontal rectangle displaying the name of a city, town, village, or other traffic generator, and a directional arrow.

City, town, village, or other traffic generator. State isn't an option. Unless you consider a state to be a traffic generator. Which would be silly.

Further, when you get into Chapter 2E, we get some more specific guidance on what, exactly, a control city is to be used for:

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD Section 2E.13
Standard:
The direction of a freeway and the major destinations or control cities along it shall be clearly identified through the use of appropriate destination legends (see Section 2D.37). Successive freeway guide signs shall provide continuity in destination names and consistency with available map information. At any decision point, a given destination shall be indicated by way of only one route.

Guidance:
Control city legends should be used in the following situations along a freeway:

    At interchanges between freeways;
    At separation points of overlapping freeway routes;
    On directional signs on intersecting routes, to guide traffic entering the freeway;
    On Pull-Through signs; and
    On the bottom line of post-interchange distance signs.

"Continuity in destination names" (and the word "and" rather than "or" in the middle of that list) implies that the same control point is to be used in all of the contexts listed. That means that if you use "Colorado" as a destination sign, it needs to appear as the third line on every mileage sign from there to...well, where exactly?

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD Section 2D.41
A well-defined central area or central business district should be used where one exists. In other cases, the layout of the community should be considered in relation to the highway being signed and the decision based on where it appears that most drivers would feel that they are in the center of the community in question.

That means you would need to provide the distance to not the state line, but the center of Colorado on every sign between Hays and...wherever the center of Colorado is, I guess Denver.

So at that point, why not just sign Denver instead of faffing about with control states?

For all discussion on this topic, I will refer everyone again to the poll at the top of the thread. Those that have been there largely think it's fine. Those who haven't, and in my opinion, whose opinions matter less, largely don't think it's fine. Ergo, it's fine. :)

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 04:19:13 PM
Not sure why you had to berate me for my response. It made enough sense. It wouldn't be the first time a state has been used on a control city to give people a general idea where said direction of a highway is headed.

My main point was not the discussion of the topic at hand.  The most important question I have is: Why did you have to berate me and insult me for my response?

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 04:42:09 PM

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 04:19:13 PM
Not sure why you had to berate me for my response. It made enough sense. It wouldn't be the first time a state has been used on a control city to give people a general idea where said direction of a highway is headed.

My main point was not the discussion of the topic at hand.  The most important question I have is: Why did you have to berate me and insult me for my response?

You find it insulting when other people disagree with your responses?

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

With the direction that I-24 travels in Illinois I think the control city should be Marion rather than Interstate 57.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 04:37:43 PM
For all discussion on this topic, I will refer everyone again to the poll at the top of the thread. Those that have been there largely think it's fine. Those who haven't, and in my opinion, whose opinions matter less, largely don't think it's fine. Ergo, it's fine. :)

Is that all you've got?

I think we have to distinguish whether we are talking about eastbound or westbound. In know in Kansas on I-70 east, the mileage signs switch of between using Limon and using Denver, but I heard that the use of Limon is being phased out.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 26, 2022, 06:06:36 PM
I think we have to distinguish whether we are talking about eastbound or westbound. In know in Kansas on I-70 east, the mileage signs switch of between using Limon and using Denver, but I heard that the use of Limon is being phased out.

It's ridiculous either way, but dumber westbound than eastbound.

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 05:57:19 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 04:37:43 PM
For all discussion on this topic, I will refer everyone again to the poll at the top of the thread. Those that have been there largely think it's fine. Those who haven't, and in my opinion, whose opinions matter less, largely don't think it's fine. Ergo, it's fine. :)

Is that all you've got?

No. I've argued my point ad nauseam, but the fact remains that those who have actually been to the location in question think differently than "armchair drivers", especially those who have spent very little time in the West and are used to 30k person cities every 50 miles at most.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 07:42:11 PMNo. I've argued my point ad nauseam, but the fact remains that those who have actually been to the location in question think differently than "armchair drivers", especially those who have spent very little time in the West and are used to 30k person cities every 50 miles at most.

I just voted against Limon and I have actually been to it multiple times, so to some degree the result of this poll will be contingent on people getting around to it.

This said, I see much potential for cycling back and forth because Limon as control city is really an edge case.  It is within the area of influence of Denver, which is a far more significant destination, but its also being where US 24 splits off for Colorado Springs is a persuasive (though not, in my personal view, compelling) argument for control city status.

As for the status quo, AASHTO's Interstate control city list (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/) does still include Limon, but it has been dropped from recent signing in Kansas.  In terms of cities used on large-panel ramp signs (not used in Colorado) and the final line on post-interchange confirmation (mileage) signs, the progression now is Denver, Hays, Salina, Topeka, and Kansas City.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 04:03:32 PM

Quote from: kirbykart on July 26, 2022, 02:37:27 PM
Dumb question, but how do you even pronounce this name? I'm going back and forth between an authentic Spanish pronunciation, and "LIME-in".

The latter.

Thank you. :D

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 04:08:09 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 02:28:03 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 01:08:56 PM

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

Maybe you could put "America" to guarantee that the control city matches where 100% of people are going.

What if I'm driving to Canada or Mexico though?

Damn, you got me. Better make it "Earth".

What if you're driving to the spaceport about to depart the planet?

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 26, 2022, 08:51:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 04:08:09 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 02:28:03 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 01:08:56 PM

Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 26, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
When it comes to signs for westbound I-70 in Kansas, I'd even prefer "Colorado" used as a control city over Limon.  It's like having "Pulleys Mill" as a control city along I-24 west of Paducah. No one. is going there.

Maybe you could put "America" to guarantee that the control city matches where 100% of people are going.

What if I'm driving to Canada or Mexico though?

Damn, you got me. Better make it "Earth".

What if you're driving to the spaceport about to depart the planet?

I believe one calls them "dispensaries" and you don't even have to leave your state.

Quote from: kirbykart on July 26, 2022, 08:44:58 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 04:03:32 PM

Quote from: kirbykart on July 26, 2022, 02:37:27 PM
Dumb question, but how do you even pronounce this name? I'm going back and forth between an authentic Spanish pronunciation, and "LIME-in".

The latter.

Thank you. :D

More specifically, LIME-un.

Interestingly, Control City Freak incorrectly pronounces Salina, UT, as the same as Salina, KS. They are pronounced differently. It's Sah-LEEN-uh, Utah, and Sah-LINE-uh, Kansas.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 07:42:11 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 05:57:19 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 26, 2022, 04:37:43 PM
For all discussion on this topic, I will refer everyone again to the poll at the top of the thread. Those that have been there largely think it's fine. Those who haven't, and in my opinion, whose opinions matter less, largely don't think it's fine. Ergo, it's fine. :)

Is that all you've got?

No. I've argued my point ad nauseam, but the fact remains that those who have actually been to the location in question think differently than "armchair drivers", especially those who have spent very little time in the West and are used to 30k person cities every 50 miles at most.

While never having been through Limon, I've spent plenty of time in the Plains and Rockies - Colorado specifically where I've been just about everywhere except the southeast quadrant.

Kansas City is probably 6 or 7 tiers above Limon for every criteria you can think of. And people
actually have an idea of where it is.

What is it about Limon that you need to see in person? It's a small highway stop town, one of hundreds of its kind in the US. How is visiting (which I eventually will) going to convince me it should be a control city?

Really, I don't think you've got anything here besides calling other people inexperienced. And it's fair to point out that you've been there while many haven't. But you can't just say "expierence"  and end it there.

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 11:01:20 PM
What is it about Limon that you need to see in person? It's a small highway stop town, one of hundreds of its kind in the US. How is visiting (which I eventually will) going to convince me it should be a control city?

It's not Limon you need to see in person, it's the empty spaces on either side of it.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 12:19:19 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 11:01:20 PM
What is it about Limon that you need to see in person? It's a small highway stop town, one of hundreds of its kind in the US. How is visiting (which I eventually will) going to convince me it should be a control city?

It's not Limon you need to see in person, it's the empty spaces on either side of it.

I know. I've been across Nebraska and Wyoming on I-80 and eastern CO on I-76.

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 04:16:33 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 26, 2022, 03:09:58 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.

Why does that matter? How does putting Limon on a sign help you find gas/food/hotels as a traveler on I-70 in Denver?

Are there not like 30 other places to stop for gas/food/hotel between Denver and KC?

Limon is also only 90 miles away from Denver. How does "Limon" tell you that gas/food/hotels are 90 miles away (which, they aren't; by your logic Aurora should be signed along I-70 EB in Denver. Or even every exit that has those things).

If you want to say that KC is too far, that's at least a valid point. I disagree because I think more than one factor should be considered in posting control cities. But saying that Limon should be a control city because it has gas, food, and hotels is nonsense because KC has all of those things 50 times over.

Yes, KC is too far. Maybe 90 miles isn't ideal. Is there anyplace in the 100-200 mile range that has equal/better services?

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 11:01:20 PM
While never having been through Limon, I've spent plenty of time in the Plains and Rockies - Colorado specifically where I've been just about everywhere except the southeast quadrant.

Kansas City is probably 6 or 7 tiers above Limon for every criteria you can think of. And people
actually have an idea of where it is.

I mean, St. Louis and Baltimore both have larger metro areas than Kansas City. At what point do we not concern ourselves with population as the 100% rule for where a highway points to?

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 11:01:20 PMWhat is it about Limon that you need to see in person? It's a small highway stop town, one of hundreds of its kind in the US. How is visiting (which I eventually will) going to convince me it should be a control city?

Really, I don't think you've got anything here besides calling other people inexperienced. And it's fair to point out that you've been there while many haven't. But you can't just say "expierence"  and end it there.

Basically it's the only place within 80 miles where you can even get your car worked on if you have an issue. Having had my wife's car have issues on both directions of a Denver-KC trip here recently (at Salina and Colby respectively), I can appreciate how much this matters more than most. Had we been somewhere even less populated than those cities, we would have been SOL even trying to find an auto parts store much less a mechanic to look at it. I think control cities should be a mixture of a directional aid as well as a service locator, which again matters a great deal more in the West than it does east of the Mississippi where there are services everywhere.

I'd maybe be fine if they wanted to remove Limon and maybe use Hays instead, but going straight to Kansas City which is 600 miles away is far too distant. It would be like the western version of I-95 signing Miami in Petersburg.

There really needs to be a Sprite bottling plant at Limon.

Does anyone remember the AAA TripTik strip maps? Limon had a special significance on the I-70 strip map for that area. US 24 was a highlighted route with a set of mileage figures from wherever the easternmost point was on that map (and to be truthful, I can't remember where it was). There was mileage to Denver via I-70, and also mileage to Colorado Springs via I-70 and US 24. And guess where the decision point was?

Limon makes more sense than Lewisburg for I-64 in West Virginia, or most of those towns used along I-80 in Pennsylvania.

I'm apparently not qualified to give an opinion eastbound. However, it makes absolutely no sense westbound. Unlike its eastbound counterpart, Denver is just slightly farther, and it's a major city. Those going to Colorado Springs would probably want to see Colorado Springs (supplementary, so as not to remove Denver), not Limon.

While a control state of Colorado wouldn't be too bad (I-70 west is also the way to Pueblo, Fort Collins, and Grand Junction, which covers pretty much the entire state), I would prefer Denver over Colorado.

Quote from: 1 on July 27, 2022, 10:49:07 AM
I'm apparently not qualified to give an opinion eastbound. However, it makes absolutely no sense westbound. Unlike its eastbound counterpart, Denver is just slightly farther, and it's a major city. Those going to Colorado Springs would probably want to see Colorado Springs (supplementary, so as not to remove Denver), not Limon.

While a control state of Colorado wouldn't be too bad (I-70 west is also the way to Pueblo, Fort Collins, and Grand Junction, which covers pretty much the entire state), I would prefer Denver over Colorado.

I'm not saying people aren't qualified if they haven't been here. I'm saying those that travel this route often have a different point of reference than those who just look at a map and population table. It's no different than looking at the Fictional forum where people say "hey, there should be an interstate that goes diagonally between Denver and Oklahoma City" irrespective of the fact that no one lives there and building the quickest way would miss which little towns there are, therefore a) not being useful and b) if you routed to actually serve those cities, you wouldn't save any time compared to existing interstates.

Some situations have nuance, and it's way easier to see that nuance from personal experience than it is from 1,000 miles away. Not everything is black and white.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 09:21:26 AMI mean, St. Louis and Baltimore both have larger metro areas than Kansas City. At what point do we not concern ourselves with population as the 100% rule for where a highway points to?

It's not a question of crossing a threshold so much as making a judgment on the basis of various factors, of which population is just one among importance as a junction point, the extent to which the location functions as a business service center for the surrounding area, and so on.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 09:21:26 AMBasically it's the only place within 80 miles where you can even get your car worked on if you have an issue. Having had my wife's car have issues on both directions of a Denver-KC trip here recently (at Salina and Colby respectively), I can appreciate how much this matters more than most. Had we been somewhere even less populated than those cities, we would have been SOL even trying to find an auto parts store much less a mechanic to look at it. I think control cities should be a mixture of a directional aid as well as a service locator, which again matters a great deal more in the West than it does east of the Mississippi where there are services everywhere.

I'd maybe be fine if they wanted to remove Limon and maybe use Hays instead, but going straight to Kansas City which is 600 miles away is far too distant. It would be like the western version of I-95 signing Miami in Petersburg.

Agreed--Kansas City is too distant.  FWIW, in terms of population (and with the proviso that this is not the only criterion for control-city status), Limon has less than one-tenth that of Hays, and is in roughly the same size class as Burlington, Colby, WaKeeney, and Russell, none of which has had control city status in a signing scheme Colorado or Kansas has used in any recent decade.

(Side note:  I've not had much luck Googling for a picture of John Limon, the railroad supervisor who is apparently the town's namesake.)

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 09:03:01 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 04:16:33 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 26, 2022, 03:09:58 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.

Why does that matter? How does putting Limon on a sign help you find gas/food/hotels as a traveler on I-70 in Denver?

Are there not like 30 other places to stop for gas/food/hotel between Denver and KC?

Limon is also only 90 miles away from Denver. How does "Limon" tell you that gas/food/hotels are 90 miles away (which, they aren't; by your logic Aurora should be signed along I-70 EB in Denver. Or even every exit that has those things).

If you want to say that KC is too far, that's at least a valid point. I disagree because I think more than one factor should be considered in posting control cities. But saying that Limon should be a control city because it has gas, food, and hotels is nonsense because KC has all of those things 50 times over.

Yes, KC is too far. Maybe 90 miles isn't ideal. Is there anyplace in the 100-200 mile range that has equal/better services?

But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 09:03:01 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 04:16:33 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 26, 2022, 03:09:58 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.

Why does that matter? How does putting Limon on a sign help you find gas/food/hotels as a traveler on I-70 in Denver?

Are there not like 30 other places to stop for gas/food/hotel between Denver and KC?

Limon is also only 90 miles away from Denver. How does "Limon" tell you that gas/food/hotels are 90 miles away (which, they aren't; by your logic Aurora should be signed along I-70 EB in Denver. Or even every exit that has those things).

If you want to say that KC is too far, that's at least a valid point. I disagree because I think more than one factor should be considered in posting control cities. But saying that Limon should be a control city because it has gas, food, and hotels is nonsense because KC has all of those things 50 times over.

Yes, KC is too far. Maybe 90 miles isn't ideal. Is there anyplace in the 100-200 mile range that has equal/better services?

But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Being a control city implies that there are amenities and the mileage signs will indicate the distance.

Being a largely unknown town isn't ideal but there aren't any known towns within a couple hours drive.

Signing only a city that's 600 miles away doesn't work, so I'd like to know what your alternative is.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 09:21:26 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 11:01:20 PM
While never having been through Limon, I've spent plenty of time in the Plains and Rockies - Colorado specifically where I've been just about everywhere except the southeast quadrant.

Kansas City is probably 6 or 7 tiers above Limon for every criteria you can think of. And people
actually have an idea of where it is.

I mean, St. Louis and Baltimore both have larger metro areas than Kansas City. At what point do we not concern ourselves with population as the 100% rule for where a highway points to?

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 11:01:20 PMWhat is it about Limon that you need to see in person? It's a small highway stop town, one of hundreds of its kind in the US. How is visiting (which I eventually will) going to convince me it should be a control city?

Really, I don't think you've got anything here besides calling other people inexperienced. And it's fair to point out that you've been there while many haven't. But you can't just say "expierence"  and end it there.

Basically it's the only place within 80 miles where you can even get your car worked on if you have an issue. Having had my wife's car have issues on both directions of a Denver-KC trip here recently (at Salina and Colby respectively), I can appreciate how much this matters more than most. Had we been somewhere even less populated than those cities, we would have been SOL even trying to find an auto parts store much less a mechanic to look at it. I think control cities should be a mixture of a directional aid as well as a service locator, which again matters a great deal more in the West than it does east of the Mississippi where there are services everywhere.

I'd maybe be fine if they wanted to remove Limon and maybe use Hays instead, but going straight to Kansas City which is 600 miles away is far too distant. It would be like the western version of I-95 signing Miami in Petersburg.

Not at all. There are major cities between Petersburg and Miami - Fayetteville, Savannah, Jacksonville. The only cities of note between Denver and KC are so close to KC that it wouldn't be logical to sign them.

Why not St. Louis? Kansas City is 85% as large as St. Louis but only 70% as far from Denver as St. Louis. Also, KC and STL are undoubtedly in the same "tier" of cities.

QuoteAt what point do we not concern ourselves with population as the 100% rule for where a highway points to?

I think I can answer that:

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I believe the argument for Limon being a primary cross-country Interstate control city is that it feels bigger than its population, and has a major junction and stuff?


In the Limon """metro area""" I count 10 fast food restaurants, 8 hotels, 2 truck stops, an airport you might be able to crash-land a helicopter on, and the junctions of I-70, US-287, and US-24.

In Kansas City metro area I count at least 200 hotels, at least 30 truck stops, probably 500 fast food restaurants, a top 50 largest airport in the US, and the junctions of I-70, I-35, I-29, I-49, US-69, US-169, US-71, US-50, US-40, US-24, and probably others I'm missing. Oh, and 1,276 times more people.

Once again, it's not a question of whether a place deserves to be a control city. It's a question of whether it's the best fit control city for the route. And even though Kansas City is a lot further away, I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I will bet money that at least 70% of cross-country travelers through Denver have no idea what or where Limon is. If the vast majority of the people the signs aim to educate are clueless, then the signs are unhelpful. Real life is not AARoads. Normal travelers don't care about or remember nowhere towns they pass through on I-70.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 02:07:06 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 09:03:01 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 04:16:33 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 26, 2022, 03:09:58 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.

Why does that matter? How does putting Limon on a sign help you find gas/food/hotels as a traveler on I-70 in Denver?

Are there not like 30 other places to stop for gas/food/hotel between Denver and KC?

Limon is also only 90 miles away from Denver. How does "Limon" tell you that gas/food/hotels are 90 miles away (which, they aren't; by your logic Aurora should be signed along I-70 EB in Denver. Or even every exit that has those things).

If you want to say that KC is too far, that's at least a valid point. I disagree because I think more than one factor should be considered in posting control cities. But saying that Limon should be a control city because it has gas, food, and hotels is nonsense because KC has all of those things 50 times over.

Yes, KC is too far. Maybe 90 miles isn't ideal. Is there anyplace in the 100-200 mile range that has equal/better services?

But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Being a control city implies that there are amenities and the mileage signs will indicate the distance.

Being a largely unknown town isn't ideal but there aren't any known towns within a couple hours drive.

Signing only a city that's 600 miles away doesn't work, so I'd like to know what your alternative is.

Significant presence on a mileage sign of a cross-country Interstate indicates that there are amenities there by itself. I agree that Limon should be on mileage signs past Aurora - next tiny town, then Limon, then KC. But large overhead guide signs are supposed to point traffic in the correct direction, not indicate to them where the next exit of any substance is. Limon does not point many people in the correct direction because people who aren't from there or don't drive the route often don't know where it is.

QuoteSigning only a city that's 600 miles away doesn't work

Sure it does. It's a known landmark that points you in the direction you want to go. So what if you stop in another town first.

I understand, but do not agree with, the rationale for skipping Hays and Limon. I still don't get the rationale for skipping Topeka and Salina.

I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I mean, I understand where the road goes. I just think you overestimate the desire of rural Ohioans to know how far it is to Atlanta when the huge majority of them aren't going that far. The Tampa example is even dumber.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:50:10 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I mean, I understand where the road goes. I just think you overestimate the desire of rural Ohioans to know how far it is to Atlanta when the huge majority of them aren't going that far. The Tampa example is even dumber.

It's not there for rural Ohioans it's there for long distance traffic which I-75 gets a ton of. I would have to say that there is enough traffic going through there on I-75 that is heading to Atlanta and Tampa to justify knowing how far it is to each place. Atlanta is the halfway point between Cincinnati and Tampa and Cincinnati is in Ohio just at the southwestern corner of the state. But by that point on I-75 you are going to have all of the Michigan traffic that is heading south since the traffic has already remerged from US-23, plus you are going to have the Ohio Turnpike traffic and Toledo is a the fourth largest city in Ohio so you will generate traffic from there too. ODOT was also just being creative with the signs.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

THere is a spot on I-90 in Albany NY where two directions are signed as Buffalo and Boston. None of those is particularly close, there are significant cities before those points (Springfield, Rochester, Syracuse). A few people travel to either B's  from that spot.
But I assume most people can visualize a map and understand if they want to go right towards Buffalo or left towards Boston. East and west should, in principle, do same thing - but for me those distant cities are even better than E and W.

Quote from: kalvado on July 27, 2022, 05:04:34 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

THere is a spot on I-90 in Albany NY where two directions are signed as Buffalo and Boston. None of those is particularly close, there are significant cities before those points (Springfield, Rochester, Syracuse). A few people travel to either B's  from that spot.
But I assume most people can visualize a map and understand if they want to go right towards Buffalo or left towards Boston. East and west should, in principle, do same thing - but for me those distant cities are even better than E and W.

So should control cities just be the termini of the route then? I-80 is just San Francisco westbound and NYC eastbound? I mean, if I go up to Cheyenne and need to get onto I-80, I could go the New York way or the San Francisco way. If I'm unfamiliar with Wyoming and need to get to Laramie or Rock Springs, no worries; they're the San Francisco way.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:50:10 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I mean, I understand where the road goes. I just think you overestimate the desire of rural Ohioans to know how far it is to Atlanta when the huge majority of them aren't going that far. The Tampa example is even dumber.

An article in the Toledo Blade indicates that the engineer that designed those signs wasn't doing it out of a belief that the information would necessarily be relevant to drivers:

Quote
Credit the geography lesson to Chris Waterfield, district traffic engineer at the Ohio Department of Transportation's district office in Bowling Green, who decided to mix things up a bit – while complying with federal sign guidelines – when he designed new signs five years ago to be erected after I-75's recent widening south of Perrysburg.

"This is my attempt at maybe trying to wake you up a little bit, and see something different. I don't think you need to see the same thing every five miles. I want to make it interesting,"  Mr. Waterfield said.

I don't know how common this is in other state's but Michigan will include a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1897494,-83.7691394,3a,15y,197.63h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQhDacvgmKnN0LGGhJ9Z3pQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 in addition to a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1919676,-83.7691536,3a,24.7y,186.05h,109.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A8g7hPRHlw-sZ-0lZrizw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 05:32:54 PM
I don't know how common this is in other state's but Michigan will include a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1897494,-83.7691394,3a,15y,197.63h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQhDacvgmKnN0LGGhJ9Z3pQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 in addition to a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1919676,-83.7691536,3a,24.7y,186.05h,109.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A8g7hPRHlw-sZ-0lZrizw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Massachusetts does it that way. It's actually very common to see town names on auxiliary signs here. It's also used on freeway to freeway interchanges.

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on July 27, 2022, 05:35:51 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 05:32:54 PM
I don't know how common this is in other state's but Michigan will include a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1897494,-83.7691394,3a,15y,197.63h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQhDacvgmKnN0LGGhJ9Z3pQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 in addition to a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1919676,-83.7691536,3a,24.7y,186.05h,109.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A8g7hPRHlw-sZ-0lZrizw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Massachusetts does it that way. It's actually very common to see town names on auxiliary signs here. It's also used on freeway to freeway interchanges.

It's also good that they let you know which way to turn for all three cities at the exit. I think having the third city there in this case Chesaning which is a bit further off the highway but still a good control city is a
good idea. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.179285,-83.7707359,3a,15y,231.78h,94.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1syIf7jU6vokHriqjhEhicMw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DyIf7jU6vokHriqjhEhicMw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D167.40688%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 05:06:58 PM

Quote from: kalvado on July 27, 2022, 05:04:34 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

THere is a spot on I-90 in Albany NY where two directions are signed as Buffalo and Boston. None of those is particularly close, there are significant cities before those points (Springfield, Rochester, Syracuse). A few people travel to either B's  from that spot.
But I assume most people can visualize a map and understand if they want to go right towards Buffalo or left towards Boston. East and west should, in principle, do same thing - but for me those distant cities are even better than E and W.

So should control cities just be the termini of the route then? I-80 is just San Francisco westbound and NYC eastbound? I mean, if I go up to Cheyenne and need to get onto I-80, I could go the New York way or the San Francisco way. If I'm unfamiliar with Wyoming and need to get to Laramie or Rock Springs, no worries; they're the San Francisco way.

It is a possible way of thinking IMHO. Although 8n case of I-90 I don't think of Seattle as a relevant city as it is too far away. Basically we are talking about finding a balance between using Boston & Seattle vs using Nothingtown & Middle of Nowhere city as control points
On the other hand, IMHO "services" argument isnt a good one as well as there are services signs designed for that.

And it may be about someone more or less local (or frequent in the area) who saw Nothingtown sign many times and has it on a mental map vs a visitor who remembers major cities only. I feel that second approach is more universal

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Dayton, (no Cincinnati), Lexington, (no Atlanta), Tampa, (no Miami)?

Lol

Generally speaking, Interstate control cities should not be unduly parochial.  The most frequently criticized sequences--Sharon, Clarion, Du Bois, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Williamsport, Bloomsburg, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap (I-80 in Pennsylvania) and Portland, The Dalles, Hermiston, Pendleton, La Grande, Baker, Ontario (I-84 in Oregon)--not only take up grossly disproportionate fractions of the full lists for their respective routes, but also give the impression the state DOT is desperately afraid to sign anything out of state.  (Portland is terminus of route, while the other three bookend control cities--Sharon, Delaware Water Gap, and Ontario--touch state borders.)

Unfortunately, this consideration doesn't rule Limon out.  Grand Junction, Denver, and Limon doesn't overburden the list for Colorado, and is actually fewer cities than Kansas for a similar mileage, if Kansas City is counted as being in the latter state.

And while it is tangential to this discussion, I think it would be worth looking at the extent to which states that have substantial mileage in non-Interstate rural freeways have sought to establish wider separation between control cities.  Kansas, for example, has not.  US 54 has substantial freeway mileage west of Wichita, but is still governed by criteria that favor county seats, so Kingman and Pratt continue to appear on ramp signs.

I had always wondered what the deal was with the control cities used at KTA service plazas. It finally clicked when you mentioned the county seat thing, and then a couple days later I found myself at Matfield Greene, looking at the return sign with a control city of El Dorado.

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 06:37:35 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:47:57 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:35:08 PM
I think it's cool how Ohio does this on I-75 south of Perrysburg.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5185252,-83.6220884,3a,15y,198.34h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLKtaTlMfCtBDLrf7NHJlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Personally I think it's a bit silly. How many cars on that point of the highway will be travelling to Atlanta? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000?

Probably quite a few. I-75 is a major highway with traffic that follows the route from Michigan to Florida and vice versa. You'll see plenty of Florida plates in Michigan and plenty of Michigan plates in Florida. I've traveled the entire length of the highway. I'd indeed say that there is enough traffic going to Atlanta to justify it.

They don't stop there though.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4443915,-83.6221944,3a,15y,194.99h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVkp79IiuI9z2o64SRjODuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Dayton, (no Cincinnati), Lexington, (no Atlanta), Tampa, (no Miami)?

Lol

Just no Miami, those signs are about 5 miles from each other.

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 05:32:54 PM
I don't know how common this is in other state's but Michigan will include a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1897494,-83.7691394,3a,15y,197.63h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQhDacvgmKnN0LGGhJ9Z3pQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 in addition to a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1919676,-83.7691536,3a,24.7y,186.05h,109.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A8g7hPRHlw-sZ-0lZrizw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

That is used a lot on the NY Thruway. At some exits there will be multiple (3, maybe even 4).

Quote from: kirbykart on July 27, 2022, 08:56:23 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 05:32:54 PM
I don't know how common this is in other state's but Michigan will include a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1897494,-83.7691394,3a,15y,197.63h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQhDacvgmKnN0LGGhJ9Z3pQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 in addition to a sign like this one, https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1919676,-83.7691536,3a,24.7y,186.05h,109.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2A8g7hPRHlw-sZ-0lZrizw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

That is used a lot on the NY Thruway. At some exits there will be multiple (3, maybe even 4).

WI does this as well.

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 09:03:01 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 04:16:33 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 26, 2022, 03:09:58 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 02:41:15 PM
I don't understand how one could say with a straight face that Limon is a better fit because it's a major junction or whatever, while ignoring that KC is like 50x the highway junction that Limon is.

I can say it with a straight face because I can get to Limon before I need gas/food/hotel and I can't get to KC.

Why does that matter? How does putting Limon on a sign help you find gas/food/hotels as a traveler on I-70 in Denver?

Are there not like 30 other places to stop for gas/food/hotel between Denver and KC?

Limon is also only 90 miles away from Denver. How does "Limon" tell you that gas/food/hotels are 90 miles away (which, they aren't; by your logic Aurora should be signed along I-70 EB in Denver. Or even every exit that has those things).

If you want to say that KC is too far, that's at least a valid point. I disagree because I think more than one factor should be considered in posting control cities. But saying that Limon should be a control city because it has gas, food, and hotels is nonsense because KC has all of those things 50 times over.

Yes, KC is too far. Maybe 90 miles isn't ideal. Is there anyplace in the 100-200 mile range that has equal/better services?

But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 28, 2022, 02:27:49 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

Denver is a 10-road junction - I-70, I-25, I-76, US-6, US-40, US-36, US-285, US-85, US-287, and CO-58. It's a decision point westbound for going to Boulder, Golden, Fort Collins, Lakewood, Los Angeles, Estes Park, Steamboat Springs, Longmont, Loveland, others. It's a decision point eastbound for going to Kansas City, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Aurora, others. I think it's quite a bit more rational than Limon to have it as a control city.

Also you didn't answer my question at all.

I think one of the biggest issues with this debate is that people are approaching this from different mindsets. There's the "western US"  mindset, which treats Limon as a more of a waypoint that functions as the "Hub City of Eastern Colorado"  and a vital place to service ailing automobiles, grab a bite to eat, or stay the night if necessary. Since there's nothing else around, this mindset assumes that Limon is therefore important, and would sign it.

On the other hand, a more "eastern US"  mindset would find Limon to be an irrelevant backward town similar to all the other ones along the interstate highway system, which is not their fault for having that presupposition. East of US 81, pretty much every little small town has the capacity to do the things Limon does. If you plopped Limon down in the middle of I-40 in eastern North Carolina, nobody would care about it at all, and it would be indistinguishable to the general populace from other small towns.

So I think your opinion on Limon depends on your perspective. I personally think it should be signed in tandem with Denver (WB) and Salina (EB). It should not be skipped.

Quote from: CoreySamson on July 28, 2022, 03:37:40 PMI think one of the biggest issues with this debate is that people are approaching this from different mindsets. There's the "western US"  mindset, which treats Limon as a more of a waypoint that functions as the "Hub City of Eastern Colorado"  and a vital place to service ailing automobiles, grab a bite to eat, or stay the night if necessary. Since there's nothing else around, this mindset assumes that Limon is therefore important, and would sign it.

On the other hand, a more "eastern US"  mindset would find Limon to be an irrelevant backward town similar to all the other ones along the interstate highway system, which is not their fault for having that presupposition. East of US 81, pretty much every little small town has the capacity to do the things Limon does. If you plopped Limon down in the middle of I-40 in eastern North Carolina, nobody would care about it at all, and it would be indistinguishable to the general populace from other small towns.

It is not that simple.  Limon has a population of less than 2,000.  There are plenty of towns west of US 81 that not only are larger but also have motels, restaurants, and repair shops.  In addition, many of them are county seats, which Limon is not (the Lincoln County seat is Hugo).  Examples of such towns just in the I-70 corridor that are not control cities include Burlington (3172 people, seat of Kit Carson County), Goodland (4465 people, seat of Sherman County), Colby (5570 people, seat of Thomas County, point where US 24 splits off for north-central Kansas), Oakley (2046 people, seat of Logan County, point where US 40 splits off for Sharon Springs and Antelope Wells), and Russell (4401 people, seat of Russell County).

Really, the only reason to have Limon on the Interstate control city list is as the point where US 24 splits off for a metro area of almost 800,000 people.

Quote from: CoreySamson on July 28, 2022, 03:37:40 PMSo I think your opinion on Limon depends on your perspective. I personally think it should be signed in tandem with Denver (WB) and Salina (EB). It should not be skipped.

In Kansas it is.  As for my perspective, I live right on top of US 81, and have travelled extensively enough on both sides that I am not bringing an "eastern US" outlook to this discussion.

Quote from: CoreySamson on July 28, 2022, 03:37:40 PM
If you plopped Limon down in the middle of I-40 in eastern North Carolina, nobody would care about it at all, and it would be indistinguishable to the general populace from other small towns.

And NC would still use it assuming there was an interstate junction there. :)

There's no perfect answer, of course. If they replaced Limon with Colorado Springs going westbound from Kansas, there would be people complaining that I-70 doesn't go there.

What if they put Amarillo/(Kansas destination) going eastbound from Denver, for US 287? :)

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on July 28, 2022, 04:46:56 PM
There's no perfect answer, of course. If they replaced Limon with Colorado Springs going westbound from Kansas, there would be people complaining that I-70 doesn't go there.

What if they put Amarillo/(Kansas destination) going eastbound from Denver, for US 287? :)

Then we'd have people bitching it wasn't Dallas/Fort Worth.

I agree with CoreySamson, but here's pretty much my point:

Quote from: CoreySamson on July 28, 2022, 03:37:40 PM
Hub City of Eastern Colorado

:-D  :-D

So what?

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on July 28, 2022, 04:46:56 PM
There's no perfect answer, of course. If they replaced Limon with Colorado Springs going westbound from Kansas, there would be people complaining that I-70 doesn't go there.

What if they put Amarillo/(Kansas destination) going eastbound from Denver, for US 287? :)

Don't bother with Colorado Springs traffic and sign Denver, the much bigger city. The silly part is that Colorado Springs doesn't even get a mention on the main Limon exit, just on it's on sign. Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

So I saw that US 40 is concurrent with I-70 from east of Denver to Limon. Could Limon as a control city be a carryover from when it would have been just US 40?

As far as signing primary control cities hundreds of miles away, some states have no problem doing that. If Limon is so important to CDOT, then cosign it with a city more people have heard of.

Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on July 28, 2022, 06:21:51 PM
So I saw that US 40 is concurrent with I-70 from east of Denver to Limon. Could Limon as a control city be a carryover from when it would have been just US 40?

Maybe, but Limon would have been an even less important city back before the interstates, as Kansas- and Texas-bound traffic would not diverge until the 40/287 split in Kit Carson.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 06:14:30 PM
Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain) of mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak).

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 06:33:58 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 06:14:30 PM
Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain) of mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak).

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 09:43:51 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 06:33:58 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 06:14:30 PM
Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain) of mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak).

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

I dunno about that. I think I heard of more of my friends growing up going to Pikes Peak than I did Aspen.

According to CDOT's AADT traffic data from 2021, I-70 East of Limon has 12,000 vpd and US 40-285 SE of Limon has 3,900. I-70 West of Limon has 13,000 vpd and US 24 west of Limon has 3,300 vpd.

Colorado Springs-bound traffic is about 20% of the total westbound traffic (or 25% of the traffic that I-70 has toward Denver), which would make sense. El Paso County is the largest county in the state, but it doesn't have the density of populated counties the Denver region has.

It's also interesting how close in traffic counts US 40-287 east of town are to US 24 west of town. I'm a bit surprised that the route to Kit Carson has slightly more traffic than goes to the Springs.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 10:24:18 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 09:43:51 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 06:33:58 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 06:14:30 PM
Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain) of mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak).

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

I dunno about that. I think I heard of more of my friends growing up going to Pikes Peak than I did Aspen.

How many of your friends now how to ski? You know, being in Oklahoma and all.

Don't act like your social circle represents everyone.

In addition, Aspen is far from the only major ski town to which you would take I-70. It's one of at least a dozen of comparable size.

Quote from: thspfc on July 29, 2022, 09:51:39 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 10:24:18 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 09:43:51 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 06:33:58 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 06:14:30 PM
Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain) of mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak).

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

I dunno about that. I think I heard of more of my friends growing up going to Pikes Peak than I did Aspen.

How many of your friends now how to ski? You know, being in Oklahoma and all.

Don't act like your social circle represents everyone.

In addition, Aspen is far from the only major ski town to which you would take I-70. It's one of at least a dozen of comparable size.

I would imagine something on the order of 5:1, people drive to Colorado for general mountain sightseeing vs. skiing. Keep in mind that most people who come skiing are flying in so that they don't have to drive here in the winter.

There are plenty of mountains in this state that, if coming from the east, you wouldn't take I-70 all the way to Denver and beyond. I just spent a week down by Lake City and there were a whole bunch of out of state (to the east) license plates down there.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKQXS2xH/Lake-City-Directions.png)

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 29, 2022, 10:24:37 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 29, 2022, 09:51:39 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 10:24:18 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 09:43:51 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 28, 2022, 06:33:58 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 28, 2022, 06:14:30 PM
Most of the traffic is probably going to Denver or the mountains, not Colorado Springs.

And as we all know, Colorado Springs is famously devoid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain) of mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak).

I used the wrong words. I was referring to the major ski resorts like Aspen.

I dunno about that. I think I heard of more of my friends growing up going to Pikes Peak than I did Aspen.

How many of your friends now how to ski? You know, being in Oklahoma and all.

Don't act like your social circle represents everyone.

In addition, Aspen is far from the only major ski town to which you would take I-70. It's one of at least a dozen of comparable size.

I would imagine something on the order of 5:1, people drive to Colorado for general mountain sightseeing vs. skiing. Keep in mind that most people who come skiing are flying in so that they don't have to drive here in the winter.

There are plenty of mountains in this state that, if coming from the east, you wouldn't take I-70 all the way to Denver and beyond. I just spent a week down by Lake City and there were a whole bunch of out of state (to the east) license plates down there.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKQXS2xH/Lake-City-Directions.png)

Fair - but there are also a lot of mountain destinations off I-70.

Right, and the point is that there's really no way to confidently state that everyone who wants to go to the mountains will or won't stay on I-70 past Limon. Which was what Roadgeekteen did.

Quote from: CoreySamson on July 28, 2022, 03:37:40 PM
I think one of the biggest issues with this debate is that people are approaching this from different mindsets. There's the "western US"  mindset, which treats Limon as a more of a waypoint that functions as the "Hub City of Eastern Colorado"  and a vital place to service ailing automobiles, grab a bite to eat, or stay the night if necessary. Since there's nothing else around, this mindset assumes that Limon is therefore important, and would sign it.

On the other hand, a more "eastern US"  mindset would find Limon to be an irrelevant backward town similar to all the other ones along the interstate highway system, which is not their fault for having that presupposition. East of US 81, pretty much every little small town has the capacity to do the things Limon does. If you plopped Limon down in the middle of I-40 in eastern North Carolina, nobody would care about it at all, and it would be indistinguishable to the general populace from other small towns.

So I think your opinion on Limon depends on your perspective. I personally think it should be signed in tandem with Denver (WB) and Salina (EB). It should not be skipped.

There are some western states that follow the eastern mindset in desginating their control cities.  Even when distances are big, the interstate controls are only the cities that are of a "national" scale.  And the point is that there is an understanding that the signs are menat to direct people to places that people have heard of to denote general direction.  It is generally more helpful to the non-local traveler.

Utah is great in this regard.  Here at the 15/80 interchange in SLC, the control cities are Las Vegas (420 mi) and Reno (520 mi), Cheyenne (440 mi) and Ogden (39 mi):

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7681357,-111.9125638,3a,75y,203.57h,96.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXJ6t6_2KXjuKAh074lqLBQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Nevada is also using larger control cities these days.  Downtown Las Vegas interchange has control cities of Los Angeles (270 mi), Reno (438 mi), Phoenix (300 mi), and Salt Lake City (420 mi).

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1678122,-115.1590473,3a,75y,358.56h,76.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suuMQ5aYCPw0LkmrnCmMKjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

In my opinion, the larger and more well known cities are more helpful and should predominate, even at larger distances.

Quote from: thspfc on July 28, 2022, 02:52:57 PM

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 28, 2022, 02:27:49 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

Denver is a 10-road junction - I-70, I-25, I-76, US-6, US-40, US-36, US-285, US-85, US-287, and CO-58. It's a decision point westbound for going to Boulder, Golden, Fort Collins, Lakewood, Los Angeles, Estes Park, Steamboat Springs, Longmont, Loveland, others. It's a decision point eastbound for going to Kansas City, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Aurora, others. I think it's quite a bit more rational than Limon to have it as a control city.

Also you didn't answer my question at all.

I was within the context that in all of eastern Colorado, only Limon has more than two roads intersecting. Once you're in the West, I think there's a different approach than there is in the far more populated East. I think it does help travelers intrastate, especially when the state is the size of 5-10 states in the East.

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 29, 2022, 07:30:11 PM
eastern Colorado

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 29, 2022, 07:30:11 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 28, 2022, 02:52:57 PM

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 28, 2022, 02:27:49 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

Denver is a 10-road junction - I-70, I-25, I-76, US-6, US-40, US-36, US-285, US-85, US-287, and CO-58. It's a decision point westbound for going to Boulder, Golden, Fort Collins, Lakewood, Los Angeles, Estes Park, Steamboat Springs, Longmont, Loveland, others. It's a decision point eastbound for going to Kansas City, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Aurora, others. I think it's quite a bit more rational than Limon to have it as a control city.

Also you didn't answer my question at all.

I was within the context that in all of eastern Colorado, only Limon has more than two roads intersecting. Once you're in the West, I think there's a different approach than there is in the far more populated East. I think it does help travelers intrastate, especially when the state is the size of 5-10 states in the East.

Let me ask a bit different question - how do people in the west describe directions in general?
If I ask you - or rather an average driver in Las Vegas - for directions, say, from Las Vegas to a national park in Utah, how would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign, regardless of what FHWA thinks about "proper" control points.
Over here in NY, I can certainly say "I-90 towards Buffalo", bypassing quite a few big cities - and would accept some of those cities as possible answers from others ; but I don't think about I-90 as a road to Chicago or Seattle unless I talk about directions to the airport.

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

East.

EB out of Denver on I-70, I'd say it makes the most sense to follow the example often used in the Chicago area and use "Kansas".

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 08:10:53 AM
East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 09:22:35 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 08:10:53 AM
East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Quote from: Jim on July 30, 2022, 09:18:11 AM
EB out of Denver on I-70, I'd say it makes the most sense to follow the example often used in the Chicago area and use "Kansas".

Then why do we use Cheyenne? Why not just say Wyoming?

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 10:22:28 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 09:22:35 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 08:10:53 AM
East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Maybe, like, read his post?

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 04:57:49 AM
How would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that directions were off-limits.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 10:23:24 AM

Quote from: Jim on July 30, 2022, 09:18:11 AM
EB out of Denver on I-70, I'd say it makes the most sense to follow the example often used in the Chicago area and use "Kansas".

Then why do we use Cheyenne? Why not just say Wyoming?

Wyoming is still a hundred than times more notable than Limon.

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 10:37:20 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 10:22:28 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 09:22:35 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 08:10:53 AM
East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Maybe, like, read his post?

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 04:57:49 AM
How would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that directions were off-limits.

If I were forced to use a place, I'd say Limon because that's what the signs say. If you're just in the metro, it doesn't make any sense to use a city. If you're in Madison and someone needs to go west on I-90, what do you say? La Crosse? Or do you just say go west?

I'll use I-75 in Michigan for my example since it's the 2di that I am most familiar with. If someone was wanting to get to Detroit from say Saginaw I'd tell them to take I-75 south. First of all the next control city on SB I-75 is Flint then Detroit so by this I should be telling them to take I-75 towards Flint? Also no one ever mentions the US-23 concurrency with I-75, people around here call it just I-75. So I was wondering if I should call it 75 and 23 or should I tell them just I-75? I guess you could tell them to take I-75 towards Flint since Flint is on the signs but telling them to take I-75 south should work just as well.

If someone wanted to get to Toledo I'd tell them to take I-75 south to US-23 south, as I have already mentioned US-23 doesn't get mentioned on it's concurrency with I-75 regardless if it's on the signs or not (which it is).

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 10:37:20 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 10:22:28 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 09:22:35 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 08:10:53 AM
East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Maybe, like, read his post?

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 04:57:49 AM
How would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that directions were off-limits.

It's not off limits; I just want to understand the way people actually think and talk. I would take @JayhawkCO answer as "Limon is a reasonable choice for control city, but in general it doesn't matter that much as we don't think about roads and directions that way.". Which is a perfectly valid approach.
I, for one, can be easily lost with east-west or left-right; so for me some reference point is preferred. But that is just me, and the way things go in my area. 

PS - "other than west" refers to what should be choosen as a control point. Cardinal direction is already there on a sign. And yes, I believe information on the sign should help me-the-driver, it should not be there just to satisfy government requirements.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 11:16:29 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 10:37:20 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 10:22:28 AM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 09:22:35 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 08:10:53 AM
East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Maybe, like, read his post?

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 04:57:49 AM
How would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that directions were off-limits.

If I were forced to use a place, I'd say Limon because that's what the signs say. If you're just in the metro, it doesn't make any sense to use a city. If you're in Madison and someone needs to go west on I-90, what do you say? La Crosse? Or do you just say go west?

Wisconsin Dells. Major tourist destination.

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 12:29:24 PMIt's not off limits; I just want to understand the way people actually think and talk. I would take @JayhawkCO answer as "Limon is a reasonable choice for control city, but in general it doesn't matter that much as we don't think about roads and directions that way.". Which is a perfectly valid approach.

I, for one, can be easily lost with east-west or left-right; so for me some reference point is preferred. But that is just me, and the way things go in my area.

I would default to using just route and cardinal direction word ("I-70 East") since that means I don't have to remember whether there is a sign with a control city, let alone what control city is used on that sign.  If pressed to accommodate your situation, I think I would give you a short menu of cities you are likely to find in the desired direction rather than just one.

The reason for this is not just that Kansas skips Limon on I-70, but also that skipping control cities in general is probably very common among state DOTs.  For example, if you approach I-35 on I-80 near Des Moines, the destinations on either side (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5920693,-93.7890692,3a,20.4y,89.02h,86.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so3wlQxuYaLTi9sit8Ikkjg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) are Minneapolis and Kansas City, notwithstanding the MUTCD's guidance ("should," not "shall") that the next control city on the route be used.  This is a skip of three control cities, since Ames, Mason City, and Albert Lea all come before Minneapolis.

I live less than 100 miles from the interchange in question and I would still have to go to StreetView to tell you what the side destinations are at I-70 as you approach it from the south on I-135.  I think they are probably Hays or Denver for west and Salina or Topeka for east,  but to pick one for each side would falsely imply certainty and possibly cause trouble for you if I am wrong.

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 30, 2022, 01:08:34 PM

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 12:29:24 PMIt's not off limits; I just want to understand the way people actually think and talk. I would take @JayhawkCO answer as "Limon is a reasonable choice for control city, but in general it doesn't matter that much as we don't think about roads and directions that way.". Which is a perfectly valid approach.

I, for one, can be easily lost with east-west or left-right; so for me some reference point is preferred. But that is just me, and the way things go in my area.

I would default to using just route and cardinal direction word ("I-70 East") since that means I don't have to remember whether there is a sign with a control city, let alone what control city is used on that sign.  If pressed to accommodate your situation, I think I would give you a short menu of cities you are likely to find in the desired direction rather than just one.

It's not even about accomodation; it is about control cities adequately describing road destinations from my perspective. It is easy to look at I-87 from Albany and say it goes to NYC, even if my destination is in Catskills. Many people actually drove all the way to control cities used on all highways in the  area, so there is little room for confusion. 
Well, it is an east coast  situation, where there are major cities 3 hours away in all directions.
I can totally see how the destination 8 hours away (Denver to KC along I-70)  doesn't work that way.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 30, 2022, 10:23:24 AM

Quote from: Jim on July 30, 2022, 09:18:11 AM
EB out of Denver on I-70, I'd say it makes the most sense to follow the example often used in the Chicago area and use "Kansas".

Then why do we use Cheyenne? Why not just say Wyoming?

I'd say because Cheyenne is not far away, a major enough city that people know, and at a junction with another major interstate.

"Kansas" over "Limon" on EB on I-70 out of Denver makes more sense to me than "Iowa" over "Des Moines" on WB I-80 out of Chicago or "Ohio" over "Toledo" on I-80/90 EB on the Indiana Toll Road.

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 02:05:45 PM
It's not even about accomodation; it is about control cities adequately describing road destinations from my perspective. It is easy to look at I-87 from Albany and say it goes to NYC, even if my destination is in Catskills. Many people actually drove all the way to control cities used on all highways in the  area, so there is little room for confusion. 
Well, it is an east coast  situation, where there are major cities 3 hours away in all directions.
I can totally see how the destination 8 hours away (Denver to KC along I-70)  doesn't work that way.

That is an interesting little wrinkle, isn't it? In the East, you're probably more likely to actually visit control cities than you are farther west. Growing up in central Oklahoma, Amarillo and Fort Smith were fantastical far-away places whose contents were limited only to the imagination. Here be dragons. They weren't places I had any hope of actually experiencing for any reason. At least not until I got my license, got on MTR, and chose to visit them on purpose.

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 02:05:45 PMIt's not even about accommodation; it is about control cities adequately describing road destinations from my perspective. It is easy to look at I-87 from Albany and say it goes to NYC, even if my destination is in Catskills. Many people actually drove all the way to control cities used on all highways in the  area, so there is little room for confusion.

Well, it is an east coast  situation, where there are major cities 3 hours away in all directions. I can totally see how the destination 8 hours away (Denver to KC along I-70) doesn't work that way.

Yes.  In the more densely populated East, there is less pressure to add smaller towns to the control city list.  This in turn translates to less likelihood of two-tier situations like at I-35/I-80 in Iowa, where (for example) a large share of the northbound traffic is likely to be local/"local stranger" drivers going to Ames but a majority of the long-distance northbound drivers want Minneapolis and know better where it is in relation to Des Moines than they do Ames.

The MUTCD does say that control cities should be of "national significance."  From that point of view, Denver carries more weight than Limon or even Hays.

While a road enthusiast with recent experience of travel on the roads you would need to take might be able to get into the nuances of which control cities appear where in the signs that have been erected in the state DOT's current sign replacement cycle, KISS dictates just route and cardinal direction to avoid giving misleading information.

Quote from: Jim on July 30, 2022, 02:36:04 PM"Kansas" over "Limon" on EB on I-70 out of Denver makes more sense to me than "Iowa" over "Des Moines" on WB I-80 out of Chicago or "Ohio" over "Toledo" on I-80/90 EB on the Indiana Toll Road.

Do you know Davenport?  Both it and Iowa City come before Des Moines as control cities on I-80 west of I-55.

The deeper into this thread I get, the more I realize just how crazy existing control city signing is.

I really think this boils down to what you expect a control city to do.

A control city can describe the major destination that the highway leads to, which may be near or far, which may or may not actually be on that particular route.

A control city can describe the best place within the next 200 miles to stop for fuel, food and lodging. This should be on the route, but may or may not be a "recognizable city."

I prefer having primary and secondary control cities when both of the above are not the same place. That provides the best information.

In this case, going east from Denver on I-70, I'd sign both Limon and Kansas City. Kansas City best describes where this route is going, and Limon best describes where I might want to stop next. Once you past Limon, that becomes Goodland, then Hays (perhaps), maybe Salina, then Topeka, and finally just Kansas City by itself.

I wonder if the best solution may be to include a smaller route shield next to control cities chosen primarily because they are a major highway junction, to make it clear that is the purpose being served by its inclusion. You could do something similar with service icons.

(36" I-70) WEST
JCT (24" US-24) Limon
Denver

(36" I-70) EAST
(food) (gas) Hays
Topeka

FWIW, when KDOT conducted a major sign replacement in northwestern Kansas in the very early noughties under contract 106 K-5927-99, these were the distance signs installed on I-70:

Eastbound:

Hays 163, Salina 256, Topeka 368
Goodland 15, Colby 52, Hays 157
Edson 8, Colby 34, Hays 143
Brewster 8, Colby 28, Hays 129
Lavant [sic] 8, Colby 19, Hays 103
Hays 113, Salina 206, Topeka 318
Colby 7, Oakley 23, Hays 112
Oakley 18, WaKeeney 71, Hays 103
US-40 5, WaKeeney 59, Hays 91
Grinnell 10, WaKeeney 51, Hays 80
Grainfield 8, WaKeeney 47, Hays 76
Park 4, WaKeeney 31, Hays 62
Quinter 8, Hays 60, Salina 154
Collyer 8, WaKeeney 20, Hays 53
WaKeeney 12, Hays 46, Salina 136
Hays 36, Salina 129, Topeka 241
Ogallah 7, Hays 33, Salina 126
Ellis 10, Hays 26, Salina 119
Hays 16, Russell 40, Salina 108
Victoria 10, Russell 27, Salina 94
Gorham 7, Russell 17, Salina 85
Russell 10, Wilson 31, Salina 78
Bunker Hill 8, Dorrance 15, Salina 69
Bunker Hill 4, Dorrance 11, Salina 65
Wilson 8, Salina 54
Salina 36, Topeka 129, Kansas City 241

Westbound:

Bunker Hill 7, Russell 16, Hays 41
Gorham 14, Victoria 21, Hays 31
Hays 29, Limon 278, Denver 364
Gorham 10, Victoria 17, Hays 27
Victoria 9, Hays 18, Limon 267
Hays 11, Oakley 94, Limon 260
Ellis 12, WaKeeney 30, Limon 249
Ogallah 9, WaKeeney 19, Limon 236
WaKeeney 8, Oakley 63, Limon 226
Limon 224, Denver 310
Collyer 12, Oakley 54, Limon 218
Quinter 8, Oakley 41, Limon 206
Park 8, Oakley 35, Limon 199
Grainfield 5, Oakley 26, Limon 190
Grinnell 8, Oakley 20, Limon 184
Oakley 12, Colby 34, Limon 176
Colby 18, Goodland 51, Limon 160
Levant 7, Goodland 34, Limon 144
Limon 140, Denver 226
Brewster 9, Goodland 26, Limon 136
Edson 9, Goodland 19, Limon 125
Goodland 10, Limon 118
Kanorado 17, Burlington 30, Limon 107
Limon 97, Denver 183
Burlington 13, Limon 90

As you can see, there is some tiering with most signs having only the next control city and only on the last line, while a few give distances to the next few control cities.  I'm not sure how many of these signs remain, though more recent plans sets show Limon dropped as a control city in favor of Denver.

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 30, 2022, 03:57:05 PM

Quote from: Jim on July 30, 2022, 02:36:04 PM"Kansas" over "Limon" on EB on I-70 out of Denver makes more sense to me than "Iowa" over "Des Moines" on WB I-80 out of Chicago or "Ohio" over "Toledo" on I-80/90 EB on the Indiana Toll Road.

Do you know Davenport?  Both it and Iowa City come before Des Moines as control cities on I-80 west of I-55.

The deeper into this thread I get, the more I realize just how crazy existing control city signing is.

Yes, drove through Davenport just 2 days ago.  And I agree, that or "Quad Cities" would work fine too.

Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 06:23:20 PM
Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Quote from: kalvado on July 30, 2022, 04:57:49 AM

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 29, 2022, 07:30:11 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 28, 2022, 02:52:57 PM

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 28, 2022, 02:27:49 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 27, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

Denver is a 10-road junction - I-70, I-25, I-76, US-6, US-40, US-36, US-285, US-85, US-287, and CO-58. It's a decision point westbound for going to Boulder, Golden, Fort Collins, Lakewood, Los Angeles, Estes Park, Steamboat Springs, Longmont, Loveland, others. It's a decision point eastbound for going to Kansas City, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Aurora, others. I think it's quite a bit more rational than Limon to have it as a control city.

Also you didn't answer my question at all.

I was within the context that in all of eastern Colorado, only Limon has more than two roads intersecting. Once you're in the West, I think there's a different approach than there is in the far more populated East. I think it does help travelers intrastate, especially when the state is the size of 5-10 states in the East.

Let me ask a bit different question - how do people in the west describe directions in general?
If I ask you - or rather an average driver in Las Vegas - for directions, say, from Las Vegas to a national park in Utah, how would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign, regardless of what FHWA thinks about "proper" control points.
Over here in NY, I can certainly say "I-90 towards Buffalo", bypassing quite a few big cities - and would accept some of those cities as possible answers from others ; but I don't think about I-90 as a road to Chicago or Seattle unless I talk about directions to the airport.

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I'd tell them to take I-70 east towards...the airport. :D :D :D

(I am amazed at how many on this board...mostly not from the West...are so wrapped around the axle about this.)

Quote from: brad2971 on July 30, 2022, 07:42:36 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 06:23:20 PM
Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Anyone else wonder what they smoke at KDOT?

Quote from: brad2971 on July 30, 2022, 07:42:36 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 06:23:20 PM
Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Colby would be a better choice if they don't want to sign Denver.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 30, 2022, 11:10:54 PM

Quote from: brad2971 on July 30, 2022, 07:42:36 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 06:23:20 PM
Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Colby would be a better choice if they don't want to sign Denver.

Why?

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2022, 12:07:18 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 30, 2022, 11:10:54 PM

Quote from: brad2971 on July 30, 2022, 07:42:36 PM

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 06:23:20 PM
Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Colby would be a better choice if they don't want to sign Denver.

Why?

Closer than Limon and in state.

Quote from: thspfc on July 30, 2022, 06:23:20 PM
Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

No. I feel the exact opposite. To me, Limon makes no sense on EASTBOUND 70, because it's not a major decision point for drivers heading east. However, going west, it is a major decision point between Denver and Colorado Springs.

Eastbound out of Denver, I'd probably sign Topeka.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 31, 2022, 12:17:09 AM
To me, Limon makes no sense on EASTBOUND 70, because it's not a major decision point for drivers heading east.

False. It's where you split if you're taking 287 south towards Texas.

Like it or not, Limon is a crossroads for travelers both eastbound and westbound. It's not a big town, but it IS a major decision point for travelers in the area.

Quote from: JREwing78 on July 31, 2022, 02:13:50 AM
Like it or not, Limon is a crossroads for travelers both eastbound and westbound. It's not a big town, but it IS a major decision point for travelers in the area.

Doesn't mean that it has to be a control city, especially when Denver, a little bit (a lot) of a crossroads itself is nearby.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 30, 2022, 04:01:21 PM
I really think this boils down to what you expect a control city to do.

A control city can describe the major destination that the highway leads to, which may be near or far, which may or may not actually be on that particular route.

A control city can describe the best place within the next 200 miles to stop for fuel, food and lodging. This should be on the route, but may or may not be a "recognizable city."

I prefer having primary and secondary control cities when both of the above are not the same place. That provides the best information.

In this case, going east from Denver on I-70, I'd sign both Limon and Kansas City. Kansas City best describes where this route is going, and Limon best describes where I might want to stop next. Once you past Limon, that becomes Goodland, then Hays (perhaps), maybe Salina, then Topeka, and finally just Kansas City by itself.

I agree that the best approach for most control city issues is to have both a primary and secondary control city.  The signs are largely big enough in many cases to afford the ability of signing two cities.

Pull through signs on the main highway.

Signs leading to only one ramp, from both other freeways and from the streets.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0028384,-77.0772711,3a,75y,354.37h,84.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAVfcbk_FcNaPDY_s0hF5Ag!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0357319,-77.1446762,3a,75y,164.53h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scewKVR8FxjHl1_oSC_Za1g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The problem of picking and choosing one control city will occur on the signs that lead to cities in both directions.  This is for instance on a sign that says "I-70, Denver, Kansas City, 2 Miles".  It gives advanced warning for both directions, so only one city for each direction can be shown.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.073376,-76.9300071,3a,75y,72.08h,87.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXjcG_9LMFWkTOT1sHKiPzw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

So primary and secondary control cities should be signed, to the extent possible.  And only primary control cities, which are of national importance, where it is not practical to sign two control cities.

A few further observations on how the Limon versus Denver choice has historically been handled in Kansas:

Kansas SHC project I-70-2(17)136 and I-70-3(17)143 (1965) (on a single plans set) called for the next one or two county seats on distance signs and did not include ramp signs of the type currently used in Kansas (with shield, cardinal direction word, destination, and arrow).  This project was far enough within Kansas that no Colorado destinations were mentioned on any of the signs.  (Generally speaking, if a number follows the parentheses in an Interstate project number similar to those cited here, then it is a nominal milepost.)

KDOT projects EHS-I-70-2(33)113 Parts I & II (1972) and I-70-1(22)40 (1975) provided for county seats (Colby, Oakley, WaKeeney, and Hays) on ramp signs (apparently recently introduced) and Denver ("Denver Colo") as the bottom line on distance signs in the westbound direction.

KDOT project 70-26 K-4440-01 (1994), apparently to build the diamond interchange for Commerce Parkway near Hays (present-day Exit 161) at the location of a former rest area, featured ramp signs with Limon ("Limon Colo").

Using Limon as a control city for westbound I-70 in western Kansas and eastern Colorado doesn't make any sense, when the much larger and more appropriate Denver is able to be used as the control city. When you get on Commerce Parkway in Hays, which is the easternmost Hays exit (and therefore the first exit in Kansas that would use either Limon or Denver as the control city for westbound traffic, since exits to the east of Commerce Parkway use Hays as the control city), the on-ramp signs say Denver. It feels appropriate. Denver is the first major city that you come to if you take I-70 west from Hays. Using Limon feels inappropriate when there is a much larger city just a few miles down the same highway.

The only justification people give for using Limon as the control city for westbound I-70 is the US-24 junction for travelers going to Colorado Springs. But in my mind, people who are taking I-70 intending to exit at US-24 to go to Colorado Springs don't need Limon signs everywhere to find their exit to Colorado Springs. They already know where they are going and what exit they need to take, and if they don't, once they get closer to Limon they'll see the exit signs for Colorado Springs. I don't see how having Limon signs everywhere helps them. Sure, Limon should be listed on distance signs so they know how far away the exit is. But Limon doesn't need to be a control city in order to be listed on distance signs.

Now when it comes to eastbound I-70 traffic and Limon's role, in my opinion it's a lot trickier. There is a lot of signage around the Denver metro using Limon as the control city for eastbound I-70. There are large overhead pull-through signs over I-70 saying Limon and large overhead exit signs on I-25, I-225, and E-470 saying Limon. They are pretty committed to using Limon. I think it could work to use Hays instead of Limon. But I don't know if Colorado would go for that.

Limon is more well known in this area that everyone is thinking it is. It's a hub city in eastern Colorado, I don't see what the big deal is.

I'm not voting, because my position is more nuanced.  After several discussions on the forum recently, here's my take:

Limon is fine as a westbound control city.  Everyone in the area knows it, and it's a decision point.

Limon is less suitable as an eastbound control city–but mainly because I prefer control cities to be farther-away locations.  Burlington, Hays, or Salina would probably be better.

I honestly think the simplest thing to do would be to eliminate Limon entirely as a control city, both in eastbound and westbound directions, and just use Hays and Denver. Hays would be the control city for eastbound I-70 from Denver to Hays and Denver would be the control city for westbound I-70 from Hays to Denver. They already use Denver as the control city in many areas of western Kansas (there is a mixture of Limon and Denver signs, but most of the Limon signs are older and the Denver usage is more common in newer signs). And Colorado uses Hays as the control city east of Limon.

I totally disagree with adding any new control cities between Hays and Denver, such as Colby, Goodland, or Burlington. I think it's completely unnecessary and would just complicate things with the different signage that would need to be added.

I like Control City Freak's suggestion of using "Kansas" as a control city for I-70 EB from Denver.

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 11:48:20 AM
I honestly think the simplest thing to do would be to eliminate Limon entirely as a control city, both in eastbound and westbound directions, and just use Hays and Denver. Hays would be the control city for eastbound I-70 from Denver to Hays and Denver would be the control city for westbound I-70 from Hays to Denver. They already use Denver as the control city in many areas of western Kansas (there is a mixture of Limon and Denver signs, but most of the Limon signs are older and the Denver usage is more common in newer signs). And Colorado uses Hays as the control city east of Limon.

I totally disagree with adding any new control cities between Hays and Denver, such as Colby, Goodland, or Burlington. I think it's completely unnecessary and would just complicate things with the different signage that would need to be added.

I've never lived in Denver, but my suspicion is that more people there know where Limon is than know where Hays is.

Ding ding ding.

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 12:27:49 PMI've never lived in Denver, but my suspicion is that more people there know where Limon is than know where Hays is.

They probably do. And having huge overhead signs with Limon plastered on them on I-70, I-25, I-225, and E-470 certainly helps.

I would potentially be in favor of using Topeka, if Hays is considered provincial or an unknown destination for Denver travelers. Topeka would be the next "large" city on I-70 east of Denver. It would skip over a few control cities to use Topeka, but there's precedent for that with places like Kansas City skipping over Columbia and Wentzville in favor of using St. Louis.

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 12:49:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 12:27:49 PMI've never lived in Denver, but my suspicion is that more people there know where Limon is than know where Hays is.

They probably do. And having huge overhead signs with Limon plastered on them on I-70, I-25, I-225, and E-470 certainly helps.

I would potentially be in favor of using Topeka, if Hays is considered provincial or an unknown destination for Denver travelers. Topeka would be the next "large" city on I-70 east of Denver. It would skip over a few control cities to use Topeka, but there's precedent for that with places like Kansas City skipping over Columbia and Wentzville in favor of using St. Louis.

No one in Denver can point to Topeka on a map either.

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 11:48:20 AM
I honestly think the simplest thing to do would be to eliminate Limon entirely as a control city, both in eastbound and westbound directions, and just use Hays and Denver. Hays would be the control city for eastbound I-70 from Denver to Hays and Denver would be the control city for westbound I-70 from Hays to Denver. They already use Denver as the control city in many areas of western Kansas (there is a mixture of Limon and Denver signs, but most of the Limon signs are older and the Denver usage is more common in newer signs). And Colorado uses Hays as the control city east of Limon.

I totally disagree with adding any new control cities between Hays and Denver, such as Colby, Goodland, or Burlington. I think it's completely unnecessary and would just complicate things with the different signage that would need to be added.

No, the simplest thing to do is leave it alone.  As long as the control city is in the proper direction and the road actually takes you there in some fashion, what's on the sign is good enough.

Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2023, 12:57:14 PM

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 11:48:20 AM
I honestly think the simplest thing to do would be to eliminate Limon entirely as a control city, both in eastbound and westbound directions, and just use Hays and Denver. Hays would be the control city for eastbound I-70 from Denver to Hays and Denver would be the control city for westbound I-70 from Hays to Denver. They already use Denver as the control city in many areas of western Kansas (there is a mixture of Limon and Denver signs, but most of the Limon signs are older and the Denver usage is more common in newer signs). And Colorado uses Hays as the control city east of Limon.

I totally disagree with adding any new control cities between Hays and Denver, such as Colby, Goodland, or Burlington. I think it's completely unnecessary and would just complicate things with the different signage that would need to be added.

No, the simplest thing to do is leave it alone.  As long as the control city is in the proper direction and the road actually takes you there in some fashion, what's on the sign is good enough.

Was just posting the same thing. It's in the proper direction. It's a major decision point in both directions (WB is US 24 for the Springs or I-70 for Denver, EB for US 287/40 which is the Ports-to-Plains corridor to OK/TX or I-70 to Hays and points east). And leaving it the way it is is literally the simplest thing to do.

You can see with the mixture of Limon and Denver on-ramp signs in western Kansas that not everyone agrees that Limon is an appropriate control city.

Of course people in Denver know where Limon is--it is nearby, unlike any town of any size in Kansas.

If we're going to go with the status quo, then Limon would continue not to be signed in Kansas.  KDOT does not list it as an approved control city for I-70.

Quote from: J N Winkler on June 16, 2023, 01:19:29 PM
If we're going to go with the status quo, then Limon would continue not to be signed in Kansas.  KDOT does not list it as an approved control city for I-70.

And yet...

https://goo.gl/maps/R6owa1ebYXHqDuJF9
https://goo.gl/maps/UFwDkW8XSwxjaUTR8
https://goo.gl/maps/eYJxQ1H6ocoyi8sh9
https://goo.gl/maps/rGe86MMCPwWpizLk7
https://goo.gl/maps/LpzaAczctLG5iRgX7

(sorry for the y in that last one)

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 01:33:57 PM
And yet...

https://goo.gl/maps/R6owa1ebYXHqDuJF9
https://goo.gl/maps/UFwDkW8XSwxjaUTR8
https://goo.gl/maps/eYJxQ1H6ocoyi8sh9
https://goo.gl/maps/rGe86MMCPwWpizLk7
https://goo.gl/maps/LpzaAczctLG5iRgX7

(sorry for the y in that last one)

That first one is a mess. The small sign on the approach from the north says Salina and Limon, but the large on-ramp sign at the intersection says Denver. Then if you continue south, the on-ramp to eastbound I-70 says Salina, but the small sign on the approach from the south says Hays and Limon. I have to think that some of these Limon and Salina signs are just old signs that haven't been replaced yet. Hays became a control city in the 1990s, I believe. So there may be signs out there that still say Salina, when they should say Hays.

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 01:19:08 PM
You can see with the mixture of Limon and Denver on-ramp signs in western Kansas that not everyone agrees that Limon is an appropriate control city.

Heh.  Or, engineers just slap some city on there in the plans.

It just doesn't matter.

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 01:49:46 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 01:33:57 PM
And yet...

https://goo.gl/maps/R6owa1ebYXHqDuJF9
https://goo.gl/maps/UFwDkW8XSwxjaUTR8
https://goo.gl/maps/eYJxQ1H6ocoyi8sh9
https://goo.gl/maps/rGe86MMCPwWpizLk7
https://goo.gl/maps/LpzaAczctLG5iRgX7

(sorry for the y in that last one)

That first one is a mess. The small sign on the approach from the north says Salina and Limon, but the large on-ramp sign at the intersection says Denver. Then if you continue south, the on-ramp to eastbound I-70 says Salina, but the small sign on the approach from the south says Hays and Limon. I have to think that some of these Limon and Salina signs are just old signs that haven't been replaced yet. Hays became a control city in the 1990s, I believe. So there may be signs out there that still say Salina, when they should say Hays.

Quite possible.

Here's another one:  https://goo.gl/maps/gBwaigdLWibXKnHg8

And, at the K-211 interchange, the signage was indeed changed from Limon (https://goo.gl/maps/gAgWs6tYCJjqmSYh7) to Denver (https://goo.gl/maps/zy5HWNrd5ZYRwLtB6) between 2018 and 2021.

Honestly, my opinions on control cities have changed somewhat, which relates to this discussion of Limon.

If we're all being honest, the general American public does not care about geography, especially not what cities lie 200 miles away. Control cities were originally useful for travelers because they mentioned the major waypoints that travelers saw on their paper maps that showed them the way to their destination. But now, their usefulness is waning. Travelers don't use a paper map to show them where to go anymore. They have phones and GPS now that take all the thought out of planning a route. Autonomous cars will make that process even less unnecessary. I'm not saying that the general public is dumb for not caring about geography and control cities anymore. What I am saying is that the tools of the 21st century have made it so drivers don't have to care about these things so that they can focus more on the things that interest them.

Let's use Limon as an example. Does the average motorist know enough about geography to care that Denver is much bigger than Limon? Perhaps, but would the sign saying "Limon" instead of "Denver" confuse them at all, or make them question why it was on the mileage sign? I don't think it would. The average motorist isn't holding up a paper map and noting where the next big control city is to gain their bearings. Instead, they are just following the signs that Google, Siri, Waze, or their GPS is telling them to follow. They don't care about these minutiae that we care about. And since they don't care if a town is a control city or not, I've found that I don't really care either.

However, I do agree that control cities need to have some sort of standards. They must be on the route (or at least pretty close to it) they must be consistently posted (so that travelers aren't confused when it disappears from signs without passing it), and they must have the sort of services that travelers need (food, lodging, gas, EV chargers, etc.). Other than that, I don't think it really matters what constitutes a control city. And from those criteria, it seems to me that Limon is fine as a control city.

Quote from: CoreySamson on June 16, 2023, 02:46:43 PM
Control cities were originally useful for travelers because they mentioned the major waypoints that travelers saw on their paper maps that showed them the way to their destination. But now, their usefulness is waning. Travelers don't use a paper map to show them where to go anymore. They have phones and GPS now that take all the thought out of planning a route.

Control cities are still quite useful, IMHO.  If my family is driving long-distance, and I get off the Interstate for lunch and a fill-up, and then my wife takes over the driving, but she's not sure about the ramp configuration at that particular interchange–then the control cities on the signs let her know which ramp to take.  Loop ramps and stacks make all sorts of interchanges less than intuitive.

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 01:33:57 PM

Quote from: J N Winkler on June 16, 2023, 01:19:29 PMIf we're going to go with the status quo, then Limon would continue not to be signed in Kansas.  KDOT does not list it as an approved control city for I-70.

And yet...

https://goo.gl/maps/R6owa1ebYXHqDuJF9
https://goo.gl/maps/UFwDkW8XSwxjaUTR8
https://goo.gl/maps/eYJxQ1H6ocoyi8sh9
https://goo.gl/maps/rGe86MMCPwWpizLk7
https://goo.gl/maps/LpzaAczctLG5iRgX7

(sorry for the y in that last one)

Indeed.  I suspect that they all date from the I-70 sign replacement in the late 1990's, when KDOT was still using Limon as a control city.  With the exception of the last, each sign faces north, meaning it will take much longer for the sheeting to deteriorate to a degree that justifies replacement.

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 02:00:03 PMHere's another one:  https://goo.gl/maps/gBwaigdLWibXKnHg8

This one does face south.  However, it uses demountable copy, which KDOT abandoned around the time it stopped using Limon as a control city.

Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2023, 01:58:35 PMHeh.  Or, engineers just slap some city on there in the plans.

Not in Kansas.  KDOT has been consistent about using Limon before 2007 and not using it after.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 16, 2023, 12:51:32 PM

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 12:49:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 12:27:49 PMI've never lived in Denver, but my suspicion is that more people there know where Limon is than know where Hays is.

They probably do. And having huge overhead signs with Limon plastered on them on I-70, I-25, I-225, and E-470 certainly helps.

I would potentially be in favor of using Topeka, if Hays is considered provincial or an unknown destination for Denver travelers. Topeka would be the next "large" city on I-70 east of Denver. It would skip over a few control cities to use Topeka, but there's precedent for that with places like Kansas City skipping over Columbia and Wentzville in favor of using St. Louis.

No one in Denver can point to Topeka on a map either.

Maybe not, but they do teach the state capitals there, yeah? So at least they would know Topeka would be in the general direction of Kansas.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 16, 2023, 09:10:17 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 16, 2023, 12:51:32 PM

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 12:49:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 12:27:49 PMI've never lived in Denver, but my suspicion is that more people there know where Limon is than know where Hays is.

They probably do. And having huge overhead signs with Limon plastered on them on I-70, I-25, I-225, and E-470 certainly helps.

I would potentially be in favor of using Topeka, if Hays is considered provincial or an unknown destination for Denver travelers. Topeka would be the next "large" city on I-70 east of Denver. It would skip over a few control cities to use Topeka, but there's precedent for that with places like Kansas City skipping over Columbia and Wentzville in favor of using St. Louis.

No one in Denver can point to Topeka on a map either.

Maybe not, but they do teach the state capitals there, yeah? So at least they would know Topeka would be in the general direction of Kansas.

Sure, but so is Liberal and you don't take the same highways to get here, hence why I hate control states.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 16, 2023, 10:36:29 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 16, 2023, 09:10:17 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 16, 2023, 12:51:32 PM

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 12:49:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 12:27:49 PMI've never lived in Denver, but my suspicion is that more people there know where Limon is than know where Hays is.

They probably do. And having huge overhead signs with Limon plastered on them on I-70, I-25, I-225, and E-470 certainly helps.

I would potentially be in favor of using Topeka, if Hays is considered provincial or an unknown destination for Denver travelers. Topeka would be the next "large" city on I-70 east of Denver. It would skip over a few control cities to use Topeka, but there's precedent for that with places like Kansas City skipping over Columbia and Wentzville in favor of using St. Louis.

No one in Denver can point to Topeka on a map either.

Maybe not, but they do teach the state capitals there, yeah? So at least they would know Topeka would be in the general direction of Kansas.

Sure, but so is Liberal and you don't take the same highways to get here, hence why I hate control states.

I agree, which is why I'd rather it be "Topeka" than "Kansas"–because someone who is using it as a general "off to the east" destination is served basically just as well as if it said "Kansas" (and if they're not, it's on them for not paying attention in school), but someone who is actually trying to reach a specific point in Kansas won't be misled that I-70 may be the best route for them when it's not.

I don't really have a problem with Limon or Hays as control cities, mind you. But if you did have to get rid of them, Topeka would be the best choice.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 16, 2023, 12:51:32 PM

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 12:49:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 12:27:49 PMI've never lived in Denver, but my suspicion is that more people there know where Limon is than know where Hays is.

They probably do. And having huge overhead signs with Limon plastered on them on I-70, I-25, I-225, and E-470 certainly helps.

I would potentially be in favor of using Topeka, if Hays is considered provincial or an unknown destination for Denver travelers. Topeka would be the next "large" city on I-70 east of Denver. It would skip over a few control cities to use Topeka, but there's precedent for that with places like Kansas City skipping over Columbia and Wentzville in favor of using St. Louis.

No one in Denver can point to Topeka on a map either.

Isn't it right off Arapahoe Road, on Emporia Street, oh, about a 1/2 mile east of I-25?

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on June 17, 2023, 05:08:47 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 16, 2023, 12:51:32 PM

Quote from: minneha on June 16, 2023, 12:49:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2023, 12:27:49 PMI've never lived in Denver, but my suspicion is that more people there know where Limon is than know where Hays is.

They probably do. And having huge overhead signs with Limon plastered on them on I-70, I-25, I-225, and E-470 certainly helps.

I would potentially be in favor of using Topeka, if Hays is considered provincial or an unknown destination for Denver travelers. Topeka would be the next "large" city on I-70 east of Denver. It would skip over a few control cities to use Topeka, but there's precedent for that with places like Kansas City skipping over Columbia and Wentzville in favor of using St. Louis.

No one in Denver can point to Topeka on a map either.

Isn't it right off Arapahoe Road, on Emporia Street, oh, about a 1/2 mile east of I-25?

I can't think off a city less like a jewelry store than Topeka. 😊

For the parts of I-70 where Limon would be signed eastbound, "Kansas"  is accurate for almost all of the state's population, including Dodge City and Wichita. Liberal is (I believe) an exception, but it's nowhere near as large as other cities in Kansas. A state control is fine.

Yes, you get off at Limon to go to Dodge City, but the name "Limon"  gives no indication of that, so it wouldn't be useful.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2023, 12:35:34 AM
I don't really have a problem with Limon or Hays as control cities, mind you. But if you did have to get rid of them, Topeka would be the best choice.

The next Interstate junction would be Salina, which is where most Wichita-bound traffic turns south (and those who turn earlier are already very familiar with the highways), so I'd also be OK with that instead of Topeka.

Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2023, 09:04:24 AM
For the parts of I-70 where Limon would be signed eastbound, "Kansas"  is accurate for almost all of the state's population, including Dodge City and Wichita. Liberal is (I believe) an exception, but it's nowhere near as large as other cities in Kansas. A state control is fine.

Yes, you get off at Limon to go to Dodge City, but the name "Limon"  gives no indication of that, so it wouldn't be useful.

So "New York" is good for I-90 Westbound out of Boston? I hate control states.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 17, 2023, 11:46:57 AM

Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2023, 09:04:24 AM
For the parts of I-70 where Limon would be signed eastbound, "Kansas"  is accurate for almost all of the state's population, including Dodge City and Wichita. Liberal is (I believe) an exception, but it's nowhere near as large as other cities in Kansas. A state control is fine.

Yes, you get off at Limon to go to Dodge City, but the name "Limon"  gives no indication of that, so it wouldn't be useful.

So "New York" is good for I-90 Westbound out of Boston? I hate control states.

I was half honestly arguing for using "Seattle" over there. New York imho would be bad only because of conflict with NYC

Quote from: kalvado on June 17, 2023, 12:47:36 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 17, 2023, 11:46:57 AM
So "New York" is good for I-90 Westbound out of Boston? I hate control states.

I was half honestly arguing for using "Seattle" over there. New York imho would be bad only because of conflict with NYC

Heh.  That reminded me of the time I picked up a hitchhiker heading north on I-135 in Wichita, who was using a sign that said "Seattle".

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 17, 2023, 11:46:57 AM

Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2023, 09:04:24 AM
For the parts of I-70 where Limon would be signed eastbound, "Kansas"  is accurate for almost all of the state's population, including Dodge City and Wichita. Liberal is (I believe) an exception, but it's nowhere near as large as other cities in Kansas. A state control is fine.

Yes, you get off at Limon to go to Dodge City, but the name "Limon"  gives no indication of that, so it wouldn't be useful.

So "New York" is good for I-90 Westbound out of Boston? I hate control states.

Yes.

Quote from: kphoger on June 17, 2023, 10:19:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2023, 12:35:34 AM
I don't really have a problem with Limon or Hays as control cities, mind you. But if you did have to get rid of them, Topeka would be the best choice.

The next Interstate junction would be Salina, which is where most Wichita-bound traffic turns south (and those who turn earlier are already very familiar with the highways), so I'd also be OK with that instead of Topeka.

Problem is that Salina CO is accessed by westbound I-70 from Denver. So you'd have to do the awkward "Salina Colo" and "Salina Kan" thing that Tennessee has to do with Jackson. Probably easier to just skip Salina, then.

Quote from: 1 on June 17, 2023, 09:04:24 AM
A state control is fine.

Just to make sure you know exactly how big of an area you're advocating for being used as a control point here...
(https://i.imgur.com/A469Vdi.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/t4bI1Si.png)

I don't see the problem.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2023, 07:45:16 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 17, 2023, 10:19:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2023, 12:35:34 AM
I don't really have a problem with Limon or Hays as control cities, mind you. But if you did have to get rid of them, Topeka would be the best choice.

The next Interstate junction would be Salina, which is where most Wichita-bound traffic turns south (and those who turn earlier are already very familiar with the highways), so I'd also be OK with that instead of Topeka.

Problem is that Salina CO is accessed by westbound I-70 from Denver. So you'd have to do the awkward "Salina Colo" and "Salina Kan" thing that Tennessee has to do with Jackson. Probably easier to just skip Salina, then.

There is no Salina, CO. There is, however, Salida, CO.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 17, 2023, 09:57:46 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2023, 07:45:16 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 17, 2023, 10:19:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2023, 12:35:34 AM
I don't really have a problem with Limon or Hays as control cities, mind you. But if you did have to get rid of them, Topeka would be the best choice.

The next Interstate junction would be Salina, which is where most Wichita-bound traffic turns south (and those who turn earlier are already very familiar with the highways), so I'd also be OK with that instead of Topeka.

Problem is that Salina CO is accessed by westbound I-70 from Denver. So you'd have to do the awkward "Salina Colo" and "Salina Kan" thing that Tennessee has to do with Jackson. Probably easier to just skip Salina, then.

There is no Salina, CO. There is, however, Salida, CO.

Ah, I was thinking of Salina, UT.

I'm in favor of just doubling up a minor destination with a major one. "Limon", "Hays", or "Salina" with Kansas City. If CDOT wants to keep it in-state, not much of another choice. Burlington would be just as stupid as Limon.

The possible confusion with Salina, Utah is a valid argument for not using Salina, Kansas as a control city for eastbound I-70 in Colorado. But the thing is, Salina, Kansas doesn't need to be used as a control city in Colorado anyway. Hays is a perfectly acceptable control city that is not only 100 miles closer to Denver, but is the largest city on I-70 in western Kansas. Hays has a population of 21,000, compared to Limon's 2,000. People argue that Limon is well-known. I would argue that it's only well-known because there are control city signs for it everywhere. If Limon wasn't used as a control city, it wouldn't be any more well-known than Burlington, Goodland, Colby, or even Oakley. It would just be another small town on I-70 that people buzz by in two minutes.

If Limon was dropped and Hays was used on control city signs in metro Denver (not "Hays, Kan.", just "Hays", as Colorado already uses on distance signs east of Limon), eventually Denver drivers would realize where Hays is. Limon is only well-known because it's on the signs. By using Hays, you're basically saying the same thing that you would be saying if you used "Kansas" on signage, but you would be able to use a city rather than a state as the control city.

Quote from: minneha on June 18, 2023, 09:47:12 AM
The possible confusion with Salina, Utah is a valid argument for not using Salina, Kansas as a control city for eastbound I-70 in Colorado.

No it's not. No one in Denver has heard of Salina, UT.

For the record, for the anti-Limons, I'm much more amenable to Hays than I am Topeka or Kansas City.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 18, 2023, 10:27:20 AM

Quote from: minneha on June 18, 2023, 09:47:12 AM
The possible confusion with Salina, Utah is a valid argument for not using Salina, Kansas as a control city for eastbound I-70 in Colorado.

No it's not. No one in Denver has heard of Salina, UT.

For the record, for the anti-Limons, I'm much more amenable to Hays than I am Topeka or Kansas City.

If you are a Denverite who has driven I-70 west to I-15, then to Las Vegas and SoCal, you most certainly have heard of Salina UT. After all, that town famously sits at the end of a 109 mile stretch without any gas or other services.

Quote from: minneha on June 18, 2023, 09:47:12 AM
The possible confusion with Salina, Utah is a valid argument for not using Salina, Kansas as a control city for eastbound I-70 in Colorado. But the thing is, Salina, Kansas doesn't need to be used as a control city in Colorado anyway. Hays is a perfectly acceptable control city that is not only 100 miles closer to Denver, but is the largest city on I-70 in western Kansas. Hays has a population of 21,000, compared to Limon's 2,000. People argue that Limon is well-known. I would argue that it's only well-known because there are control city signs for it everywhere. If Limon wasn't used as a control city, it wouldn't be any more well-known than Burlington, Goodland, Colby, or even Oakley. It would just be another small town on I-70 that people buzz by in two minutes.

If Limon was dropped and Hays was used on control city signs in metro Denver (not "Hays, Kan.", just "Hays", as Colorado already uses on distance signs east of Limon), eventually Denver drivers would realize where Hays is. Limon is only well-known because it's on the signs. By using Hays, you're basically saying the same thing that you would be saying if you used "Kansas" on signage, but you would be able to use a city rather than a state as the control city.

When you get off I-70 at Exit 359 in Limon, you'll notice that the exit has traveler services that are quite comparable to what Hays (KS) has at I-70 Exit 159. In fact, the only major difference between the two, despite Hays having 19000 more people, is that Limon doesn't (yet) have a Starbucks. Also, bear in mind that Limon is the turnoff point for trucks that supply the Colorado Front Range from Dallas-Ft Worth and the TX Gulf Coast.

Quote from: brad2971 on June 18, 2023, 12:09:53 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 18, 2023, 10:27:20 AM

Quote from: minneha on June 18, 2023, 09:47:12 AM
The possible confusion with Salina, Utah is a valid argument for not using Salina, Kansas as a control city for eastbound I-70 in Colorado.

No it's not. No one in Denver has heard of Salina, UT.

For the record, for the anti-Limons, I'm much more amenable to Hays than I am Topeka or Kansas City.

If you are a Denverite who has driven I-70 west to I-15, then to Las Vegas and SoCal, you most certainly have heard of Salina UT. After all, that town famously sits at the end of a 109 mile stretch without any gas or other services.

A) There aren't that many Coloradans that have made that drive, just based on the AADT alone. I would imagine in my friend group, 50% haven't even been to Grand Junction. And these are people who travel internationally.

B) A good chunk of people who HAVE driven that stretch still have never heard of Salina, UT.

I just wanted to point out the silliness of the fact that this thread has more pageviews than Limon has residents.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 18, 2023, 07:38:43 PM
I just wanted to point out the silliness of the fact that this thread has more pageviews than Limon has residents.

You're silly.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 18, 2023, 07:38:43 PM
I just wanted to point out the silliness of the fact that this thread has more pageviews than Limon has residents.

Now we need to make an effort and increase number of views beyond daily traffic count on I-70 in Limon!

Just have Kansas City as the eastbound control city from Denver. Limon, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, WaKeeney, Hays, Russell, Salina, Junction City, and Topeka could be used as secondaries, on a rotating basis. Problem solved!

(All right, I could see Hays, Salina, and Topeka occasionally being used as the primary - that is, third-line - destinations along the Burlington-Oakley, Hays-Russell, and Salina-Junction City sections, respectively, with the closer, smaller town being the secondary, but most of the signs would have KC as the primary.)

The same principle could be applied for signing Denver westbound - at least west of Salina, anyway.

Quote from: KCRoadFan on June 18, 2023, 09:15:39 PM
Just have Kansas City as the eastbound control city from Denver. Limon, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, WaKeeney, Hays, Russell, Salina, Junction City, and Topeka could be used as secondaries, on a rotating basis. Problem solved!

(All right, I could see Hays, Salina, and Topeka occasionally being used as the primary - that is, third-line - destinations along the Burlington-Oakley, Hays-Russell, and Salina-Junction City sections, respectively, with the closer, smaller town being the secondary, but most of the signs would have KC as the primary.)

The same principle could be applied for signing Denver westbound - at least west of Salina, anyway.

I think the problem with having Kansas City as the control city in Denver is the distance between the two, it's 600 miles from Denver to KC so that is quite a stretch. Limon is fine as a control city because people in Colorado are going to know where it is. I'm sure CDOT doesn't care about long distance travel they try to use control cities within their own state.

I think even using Hays is too far from Denver. It's 340 miles and Hays really isn't a big enough city to justify the distance. Limon is 90 miles from Denver, it's fine. It's been mentioned many times that there isn't a limit on how big the city has to be to be a control city. If that was the case then MDOT wouldn't be able to use Mackinac Bridge and PennDOT wouldn't be able to use Delaware Water Gap which I think is a stupid control city anyway it should just be New York City across the entire state of Pennsylvania. I know it's almost 400 miles from the Ohio/Pennsylvania border to NYC but we're talking about the largest city in the country compared to some small towns in Kansas. Considering that Limon is considered a hub city in Eastern Colorado I think the control city status is fine.

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 18, 2023, 09:20:24 PM

Quote from: KCRoadFan on June 18, 2023, 09:15:39 PM
Just have Kansas City as the eastbound control city from Denver. Limon, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, WaKeeney, Hays, Russell, Salina, Junction City, and Topeka could be used as secondaries, on a rotating basis. Problem solved!

(All right, I could see Hays, Salina, and Topeka occasionally being used as the primary - that is, third-line - destinations along the Burlington-Oakley, Hays-Russell, and Salina-Junction City sections, respectively, with the closer, smaller town being the secondary, but most of the signs would have KC as the primary.)

The same principle could be applied for signing Denver westbound - at least west of Salina, anyway.

I think the problem with having Kansas City as the control city in Denver is the distance between the two, it's 600 miles from Denver to KC so that is quite a stretch. Limon is fine as a control city because people in Colorado are going to know where it is. I'm sure CDOT doesn't care about long distance travel they try to use control cities within their own state.

Honestly speaking, that is the concept making me really uncomfortable.

Here's an idea, let's just use each end of the highway for control cities. So anyone going EB on I-70 will see Baltimore as the control city and anyone going WB on I-70 will see Cove Fort as the control city. Anyone going NB on I-75 will see Sault Ste. Marie and going SB will see Miami. Does this clear everything up?

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 18, 2023, 09:30:22 PM
Here's an idea, let's just use each end of the highway for control cities. So anyone going EB on I-70 will see Baltimore Beltway as the control city and anyone going WB on I-70 will see Cove Fort as the control city. Anyone going NB on I-75 will see Sault Ste. Marie and going SB will see Miami. Does this clear everything up?

FTFY

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 18, 2023, 09:30:22 PM
Here's an idea, let's just use each end of the highway for control cities. So anyone going EB on I-70 will see Baltimore as the control city and anyone going WB on I-70 will see Cove Fort as the control city. Anyone going NB on I-75 will see Sault Ste. Marie and going SB will see Miami. Does this clear everything up?

Make it "MSA of at least 2 million nearest to the terminus" and I would actually agree with you!

Quote from: 1 on June 18, 2023, 09:40:21 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 18, 2023, 09:30:22 PM
Here's an idea, let's just use each end of the highway for control cities. So anyone going EB on I-70 will see Baltimore Beltway as the control city and anyone going WB on I-70 will see Cove Fort as the control city. Anyone going NB on I-75 will see Sault Ste. Marie and going SB will see Miami. Does this clear everything up?

FTFY

Oh noes.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 18, 2023, 07:38:43 PM
I just wanted to point out the silliness of the fact that this thread has more pageviews than Limon has residents.

Doing my part to ensure the thread gets more posts than Limon has residents.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 17, 2023, 09:57:46 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2023, 07:45:16 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 17, 2023, 10:19:45 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 17, 2023, 12:35:34 AM
I don't really have a problem with Limon or Hays as control cities, mind you. But if you did have to get rid of them, Topeka would be the best choice.

The next Interstate junction would be Salina, which is where most Wichita-bound traffic turns south (and those who turn earlier are already very familiar with the highways), so I'd also be OK with that instead of Topeka.

Problem is that Salina CO is accessed by westbound I-70 from Denver. So you'd have to do the awkward "Salina Colo" and "Salina Kan" thing that Tennessee has to do with Jackson. Probably easier to just skip Salina, then.

There is no Salina, CO. There is, however, Salida, CO.

Thank you for pointing that out.  Technically, there is a Salina in Colorado, but it's all but abandoned and has a population well under 100.

Quote from: minneha on June 18, 2023, 09:47:12 AM
People argue that Limon is well-known. I would argue that it's only well-known because there are control city signs for it everywhere. If Limon wasn't used as a control city, it wouldn't be any more well-known than Burlington, Goodland, Colby, or even Oakley. It would just be another small town on I-70 that people buzz by in two minutes.

No.  Colorado Springs traffic would definitely know Limon, because that's the jumping-on or -off point for them.  The very reason it's a control city to begin with is the same reason a lot of people would be familiar with it regardless.

I grew up in far northwestern Kansas, so I'm quite familiar with Goodland and Colby and Oakley.  But, for me, the towns between the KS/CO state line and Denver go something like this:

state line, Burlington somewhere by the state line, mumble, mumble, mumble, Flagler maybe?, mumble, mumble, LIMON, mumble, mumble, Byers for US-36, something else, truck traffic near Watkins, then Denver.  And I only know Byers because we'd usually take US-36 to Denver instead of I-70.  Otherwise, I'd pretty much only know Burlington and Limon–but especially Limon.

Quote from: brad2971 on June 18, 2023, 12:19:22 PM
When you get off I-70 at Exit 359 in Limon, you'll notice that the exit has traveler services that are quite comparable to what Hays (KS) has at I-70 Exit 159. In fact, the only major difference between the two, despite Hays having 19000 more people, is that Limon doesn't (yet) have a Starbucks. Also, bear in mind that Limon is the turnoff point for trucks that supply the Colorado Front Range from Dallas-Ft Worth and the TX Gulf Coast.

Traveler-oriented businesses at Limon
La Quinta Inn & Suites
Super 8
Econolodge
Quality Inn & Suites
Comfort Inn
Holiday Inn Express
Flying J truck stop
TA/Phillips 66 truck stop
Cenex
Sinclair
Shell
IHOP
Subway
McDonald's
Taco Bell
Arby's
Wendy's
Tesla Supercharger station
ChargePoint charging station

This is definitely not a nothing of a town.  But I'll admit it is similar to Colby as far as traveler services go.

This discussion has been going on for much longer than the 10 pages in this specific thread. Nobody is going to be convinced one way or the other based on the arguments in this thread. It's just going to be continually endless arguing. Even Flint1979 is saying who cares. For this, I have to say...

Eastern Colorado should be moved to Central Time.

Quote from: 1 on June 19, 2023, 11:05:46 AM
This discussion has been going on for much longer than the 10 pages in this specific thread. Nobody is going to be convinced one way or the other based on the arguments in this thread. It's just going to be continually endless arguing. Even Flint1979 is saying who cares. For this, I have to say...

Eastern Colorado should be moved to Central Time.

But what about Daylight Savings Time?

Here's something to think about when you suggest Kansas City being the control city as far west as Denver. Like I've mentioned it's 600 miles. I live in Saginaw, MI along I-75, it's 586 miles from here to Knoxville, Tennessee just to show an eastern example of how far it is between Denver and KC. And you don't even stay on I-75 the entire time. Now from Knoxville to Tampa, Florida is 669 miles only 69 more miles. That just goes to show how big the western US really is. You think your west when your in Denver and still have 1,250 miles to go to get to San Francisco.

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 19, 2023, 12:28:31 PM
Here's something to think about when you suggest Kansas City being the control city as far west as Denver. Like I've mentioned it's 600 miles.

El Paso to San Antonio is 550 miles.  In my opinion, Van Horn as a control city is kind of like Limon, except there's no Colorado Springs—sized city for eastbound traffic to be going to from El Paso.  Westbound, Van Horn is kind of ridiculous.

Poiponen13 has the right idea: relocate a whole bunch of people to somewhere on the I-70 corridor (Burlington?) so that there's a control city that's large enough.

Quote from: kphoger on June 19, 2023, 12:41:32 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 19, 2023, 12:28:31 PM
Here's something to think about when you suggest Kansas City being the control city as far west as Denver. Like I've mentioned it's 600 miles.

El Paso to San Antonio is 550 miles.  In my opinion, Van Horn as a control city is kind of like Limon, except there's no Colorado Springs—sized city for eastbound traffic to be going to from El Paso.  Westbound, Van Horn is kind of ridiculous.

The only reason I can see with Van Horn is that it's the intersection of US-90 and I-10 at US-90's western terminus. El Paso is only 120 miles west of Van Horn though. Where does Van Horn start being used going WB on I-10 at?

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 19, 2023, 01:03:36 PM
The only reason I can see with Van Horn is that it's the intersection of US-90 and I-10 at US-90's western terminus. El Paso is only 120 miles west of Van Horn though. Where does Van Horn start being used going WB on I-10 at?

I just saw some east of Junction.

Quote from: kphoger on June 12, 2023, 03:21:48 PM
I drove past these three signs on Saturday, and I've got to say, I wasn't exactly thrilled with their choice for the second line.  Not really a control city, but still.

Also, the math doesn't seem quite right...

https://goo.gl/maps/duCDy3HJPZHgAYmC7
https://goo.gl/maps/6VGctjNEW2gYdcmn6
https://goo.gl/maps/L4Xn8PgUYqBzXSP78

On the other hand, here's a legit control city at an exit I took five days earlier, and I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how Ciudad Mier seemed like a better idea than Apodaca or Cadereyta or China or Reynosa or any other town that isn't eighty miles away from highway 40, in another state, and back in the opposite general direction of the traffic facing the sign.

https://goo.gl/maps/Sf3HjyrE8bBfgism6

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 18, 2023, 09:20:24 PM

Quote from: KCRoadFan on June 18, 2023, 09:15:39 PM
Just have Kansas City as the eastbound control city from Denver. Limon, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, WaKeeney, Hays, Russell, Salina, Junction City, and Topeka could be used as secondaries, on a rotating basis. Problem solved!

(All right, I could see Hays, Salina, and Topeka occasionally being used as the primary - that is, third-line - destinations along the Burlington-Oakley, Hays-Russell, and Salina-Junction City sections, respectively, with the closer, smaller town being the secondary, but most of the signs would have KC as the primary.)

The same principle could be applied for signing Denver westbound - at least west of Salina, anyway.

I think the problem with having Kansas City as the control city in Denver is the distance between the two, it's 600 miles from Denver to KC so that is quite a stretch. Limon is fine as a control city because people in Colorado are going to know where it is. I'm sure CDOT doesn't care about long distance travel they try to use control cities within their own state.

I agree it's quite far, but Kansas City isn't just another destination either. It's a major truck destination as well as a critical crossroads and traffic shift point, even if I-80 peels most truck traffic off.

The mayor of Limon should award Control City Freak the key to the city.  He has done more than anybody to make Limon, Co. famous. 

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 19, 2023, 01:30:50 PM
I agree it's quite far, but Kansas City isn't just another destination either. It's a major truck destination as well as a critical crossroads and traffic shift point, even if I-80 peels most truck traffic off.

Speaking as someone who used to live within 30 miles of I-70 between Hays and Limon, I'd say Denver and Kansas City would be just fine as control cities.  If Limon and Hays are too small for people's liking, then I'd go with Denver and Kansas City instead, rather than quibbling over Burlington and Salina and even Topeka.

Have we ever tried:

*  Ranking Interstate control cities by size?

*  Ranking Interstate control city pairs by shortest separation (reckoned as travel distance along the Interstate and any necessary connector routes)?

*  Normalizing either of the foregoing measures by multiplying by some other parameter, such as the mean population density of the state the control city is in/the states passed through to connect the two cities in the pair?

I will admit I say no to Limon because I just don't like it.  (Part of Sarah Smarsh's Heartland is set in it and tells the story of an abusive husband about whom local law enforcement does nothing because he is "connected.")  But the point about Van Horn is interesting.

Quote from: J N Winkler on June 19, 2023, 01:48:36 PM
Have we ever tried:

*  Ranking Interstate control cities by size?

*  Ranking Interstate control city pairs by shortest separation (reckoned as travel distance along the Interstate and any necessary connector routes)?

*  Normalizing either of the foregoing measures by multiplying by some other parameter, such as the mean population density of the state the control city is in/the states passed through to connect the two cities in the pair?

I will admit I say no to Limon because I just don't like it.  (Part of Sarah Smarsh's Heartland is set in it and tells the story of an abusive husband about whom local law enforcement does nothing because he is "connected.")  But the point about Van Horn is interesting.

(click quote link for context)

Quote from: 1 on May 02, 2021, 11:09:57 AM
Population/2^(distance / 100 mi)

[This isn't the same formula I used earlier.]

I think people are against Limon because on the east coast Limon would never be a control city but in the west the population is pretty sparse and Limon makes sense

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2023, 02:32:30 PM
I think people are against Limon because on the east coast Limon would never be a control city but in the west the population is pretty sparse and Limon makes sense

People aren't.  A few roadgeeks are.

Quote from: Rothman on June 20, 2023, 03:04:55 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2023, 02:32:30 PM
I think people are against Limon because on the east coast Limon would never be a control city but in the west the population is pretty sparse and Limon makes sense

People aren't.  A few roadgeeks are.

I meant the people here. I agree no one outside of road geeks care.

Roadgeeks are people too!

Quote from: kphoger on June 20, 2023, 03:39:14 PM
Roadgeeks are people too!

"Mr. The Frog, we all agreed a roadgeek is not a people."

Quote from: 1 on June 19, 2023, 12:44:34 PM
Poiponen13 has the right idea: relocate a whole bunch of people to somewhere on the I-70 corridor (Burlington?) so that there's a control city that's large enough.

Be careful. Burlington does have a Core-Civic owned prison that's been closed since 2016.

Quote from: brad2971 on June 20, 2023, 07:09:06 PM

Quote from: 1 on June 19, 2023, 12:44:34 PM
Poiponen13 has the right idea: relocate a whole bunch of people to somewhere on the I-70 corridor (Burlington?) so that there's a control city that's large enough.

Be careful. Burlington does have a Core-Civic owned prison that's been closed since 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limon_Correctional_Facility

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 20, 2023, 08:17:08 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limon_Correctional_Facility

I...

clicked on the link,
read the basic stats,
was intrigued by the fact that a seminary has established a campus at the prison,
considered clicking on the seminary's link but decided against it,
started glancing through the list of "incidents",
forgot that I had decided against reading about the seminary itself,
landed on the phrase "Edward Montour Jr. beat correctional officer Eric Autobee to death", and
thought it was a member of the seminary staff who had done so.

Quote from: KCRoadFan on June 18, 2023, 09:15:39 PM
Just have Kansas City as the eastbound control city from Denver. Limon, Burlington, Goodland, Colby, Oakley, WaKeeney, Hays, Russell, Salina, Junction City, and Topeka could be used as secondaries, on a rotating basis. Problem solved!

(All right, I could see Hays, Salina, and Topeka occasionally being used as the primary - that is, third-line - destinations along the Burlington-Oakley, Hays-Russell, and Salina-Junction City sections, respectively, with the closer, smaller town being the secondary, but most of the signs would have KC as the primary.)

The same principle could be applied for signing Denver westbound - at least west of Salina, anyway.

This would basically be my approach as well.  I'm a very big believer in using the big nationally recognized cities as controls. But I also believe strongly in the approach of incorporating secondary controls, which will highlight many of these smaller cities that have their own value as key junctions or stopping points for gas and food. 

Primary controls: WB from KC: Topeka, then Denver.  EB from Denver: KC

What is the furthest east point in Kansas where Limon is signed, either in an on-ramp sign or a distance sign? In past discussions here, someone said years ago there was a Limon sign near Manhattan. That one has presumably been removed? I think many of the Limon signs east of Hays have been removed. I don't know of any that still exist. Limon used to be listed on distance signs around Russell, but those have been taken down and replaced with signs that just give the distance to Hays.

Quote from: minneha on June 22, 2023, 05:34:12 PM
What is the furthest east point in Kansas where Limon is signed, either in an on-ramp sign or a distance sign? In past discussions here, someone said years ago there was a Limon sign near Manhattan. That one has presumably been removed? I think many of the Limon signs east of Hays have been removed. I don't know of any that still exist. Limon used to be listed on distance signs around Russell, but those have been taken down and replaced with signs that just give the distance to Hays.

Wow!  It was signed even east of Hays?

Here's one on the western outskirts of Hays, as of 2021 GSV:  https://goo.gl/maps/uzu6RXHqmF1eU1Lk6

As for distance signs, here's one I found for 260 miles:  https://goo.gl/maps/7ytNucceRXrzCYQw7

Quote from: kphoger on June 22, 2023, 06:03:23 PMAs for distance signs, here's one I found for 260 miles:  https://goo.gl/maps/7ytNucceRXrzCYQw7

On a recent drive, I noticed that this sign, Hays 11 Oakley 94 Limon 260, was taken down and replaced with a sign that says Hays 9. No other cities on it. Just Hays 9. There is another sign just east of the US-281 exit at Russell that says Hays 29, again with no other cities on it. And I think that sign used to have Limon on it as well.

Quote from: brad2971 on June 20, 2023, 07:09:06 PM

Quote from: 1 on June 19, 2023, 12:44:34 PM
Poiponen13 has the right idea: relocate a whole bunch of people to somewhere on the I-70 corridor (Burlington?) so that there's a control city that's large enough.

Be careful. Burlington does have a Core-Civic owned prison that's been closed since 2016.

Limon has a state-owned one, just S of town on 71. One-star review - food's terrible.

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on June 23, 2023, 07:29:26 AM

Quote from: brad2971 on June 20, 2023, 07:09:06 PM

Quote from: 1 on June 19, 2023, 12:44:34 PM
Poiponen13 has the right idea: relocate a whole bunch of people to somewhere on the I-70 corridor (Burlington?) so that there's a control city that's large enough.

Be careful. Burlington does have a Core-Civic owned prison that's been closed since 2016.

Limon has a state-owned one, just S of town on 71. One-star review - food's terrible.

It should also be noted that correctional facility is a, well let's call it tourist destination. Relatives do visit inmates at the facility, meaning more traffic and more reason to have the place signed.

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2023, 02:32:30 PM
I think people are against Limon because on the east coast Limon would never be a control city but in the west the population is pretty sparse and Limon makes sense

Some people are upset Trenton made it as a control city on the NJ Turnpike, so there's that.

Quote from: kalvado on June 23, 2023, 08:11:03 AM
It should also be noted that correctional facility is a, well let's call it tourist destination. Relatives do visit inmates at the facility, meaning more traffic and more reason to have the place signed.

You know...  When my wife and son and I visited my mother-in-law at the Chillicothe (MO) correctional facility several years ago, we (1) stayed in a hotel and (2) ordered take-out from a local restaurant to share with her in the visitation area.  You're on to something there...

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 23, 2023, 08:59:07 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2023, 02:32:30 PM
I think people are against Limon because on the east coast Limon would never be a control city but in the west the population is pretty sparse and Limon makes sense

Some people are upset Trenton made it as a control city on the NJ Turnpike, so there's that.

Well, at least Limon is actually on I-70 - on the other hand, Trenton's not even on the Turnpike. Heck, it's not even on I-95 anymore, ever since the gap was filled.

So in other words, it makes even less sense to have Trenton as a control city on the Turnpike.