Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'

[kalvado]

If a roundabout is more thinking than you're comfortable with doing, you need to turn in your keys, because you're not competent to drive a motor vehicle.

OK, let's see how fit you are.
Below is the schematic of a roundabout I drive through almost every day. You cannot see the far side because of large feature in the center. You're coming from the east and making left towards south. If it is not very clear, northern side has only 1 lane. Path A or path B?


Did it take you more than 3 seconds to answer? That's all  you have on the road
 

[Rothman]

If a roundabout is more thinking than you're comfortable with doing, you need to turn in your keys, because you're not competent to drive a motor vehicle.

OK, let's see how fit you are.
Below is the schematic of a roundabout I drive through almost every day. You cannot see the far side because of large feature in the center. You're coming from the east and making left towards south. If it is not very clear, northern side has only 1 lane. Path A or path B?


Did it take you more than 3 seconds to answer? That's all  you have on the road
 

You forgot the markings and signage.

[kalvado]

If a roundabout is more thinking than you're comfortable with doing, you need to turn in your keys, because you're not competent to drive a motor vehicle.

OK, let's see how fit you are.
Below is the schematic of a roundabout I drive through almost every day. You cannot see the far side because of large feature in the center. You're coming from the east and making left towards south. If it is not very clear, northern side has only 1 lane. Path A or path B?


Did it take you more than 3 seconds to answer? That's all  you have on the road
 

You forgot the markings and signage.

There is nothing that would help with A/B selection. There is some signage in the northern approach, but you cannot see it it when you travel along red line.

[Scott5114]

Did it take you more than 3 seconds to answer?

Yes, but that's because you said "east" so I looked to the right side of the page and was trying to figure out what the red arrow was supposed to signify, because I have never seen anyone on this forum make a map with south on top. Your diagram also doesn't include the geometry that a properly-designed roundabout would that would indicate the proper travel path.

In any event, here's the MUTCD diagram for a roundabout like yours. Properly marked, the A path is pretty obviously the correct one.

[Tom958]

OK, let's see how fit you are.
Below is the schematic of a roundabout I drive through almost every day. You cannot see the far side because of large feature in the center. You're coming from the east and making left towards south. If it is not very clear, northern side has only 1 lane. Path A or path B?

Either one is fine. It's the same as turning left at a signal or an unsignalized intersection.

[Rothman]

OK, let's see how fit you are.
Below is the schematic of a roundabout I drive through almost every day. You cannot see the far side because of large feature in the center. You're coming from the east and making left towards south. If it is not very clear, northern side has only 1 lane. Path A or path B?

Either one is fine. It's the same as turning left at a signal or an unsignalized intersection.

No.  Not if you are headed south, which he awkwardly put at the top of his map.

In any matter, Scott fleshed out what I was getting at.

Come to think of it, at least in the Northeast, moving to the outside of the roundabout to exit it is pretty well expected.

[kalvado]

OK, let's see how fit you are.
Below is the schematic of a roundabout I drive through almost every day. You cannot see the far side because of large feature in the center. You're coming from the east and making left towards south. If it is not very clear, northern side has only 1 lane. Path A or path B?

Either one is fine. It's the same as turning left at a signal or an unsignalized intersection.

No.  Not if you are headed south, which he awkwardly put at the top of his map.

In any matter, Scott fleshed out what I was getting at.

Come to think of it, at least in the Northeast, moving to the outside of the roundabout to exit it is pretty well expected.

Moreover, there is no guarantee that southern side has 2 exit lanes and one would be able to exit from inner lane at at all.
If you think about it, modern roundabout can be seen as several short lanes starting at center island and terminating at exit. So lane A just starts at that point and lane B is the one driver should continue in.

So, apparently roundabout requires more thinking than Scott could handle ...

[Scott5114]

What? The problem isn't with the roundabout, it's with your drawing.

[kalvado]

What? The problem isn't with the roundabout, it's with your drawing.

Once orientation of the drawing is sorted out (guilty as charged, I first draw the diagram with car coming in from the left, and then realized I may need that compass for description) everything relevant to the question is right there. Omitted signage doesn't help with dilemma.
You just chosen the wrong lane.

[jakeroot]

Here is a real-life example of a problematic roundabout.

The image below is from Gig Harbor, Washington (Google Maps). Ignore the bottom roundabout, we are focusing on the top roundabout (the oval one).

Coming off the freeway from the right side of the image, there is no way to "turn left" across the overpass without changing lanes. Notice that the yellow chevrons markings and white edge extension markings lead you into the outside lane which then exits back onto the freeway. In order to turn left, you have to change lanes or make a very awkward sharp left move where that second inside lane forms near the top of the roundabout.

As a driver, this lane change is not signed. The roundabout signage on the off-ramp shows the left lane as taking you towards the overpass, yet that's incorrect.

The bottom roundabout had some unrelated issues and has been heavily modified since this picture was taken (10+ years ago).

[Tom958]

Here is a real-life example of a problematic roundabout.

Primitive as is would be, perhaps a sign that read

WA 16 EAST
Bremerton
KEEP LEFT

placed on the center island where it'll be prominent in a driver's field of view once s/he has entered the circle. With luck, drivers would wonder why WA 16 traffic needs to keep left while Borgen and Centerwood traffic doesn't.

plus a shield and banner assembly

EAST
WA 16
(diagonally up & left arrow)

near the end of the yellow-striped zone. Maybe make the yellow-striped zone narrower, too.

[SEWIGuy]

If you exit off the freeway to the far left lane, you most certainly can go left without changing lanes.  Am I missing something?

Also, has this roundabout actually been a problem?

[jakeroot]

has this roundabout actually been a problem?

The roundabout has been reconfigured at least twice since it opened in 2001, and rebuilt once. So, possibly.

If you exit off the freeway to the far left lane, you most certainly can go left without changing lanes.  Am I missing something?

Incorrect, the only lane that feeds the westbound exit is the left lane of the westbound entry (from the right in the below image). The markings also direct traffic into the outside lane and thus the entrance back onto WA-16:


Borgen Blvd Roundabout Issue by Jacob Root, on Flickr

Here is a real-life example of a problematic roundabout.

Primitive as is would be, perhaps a sign that read

WA 16 EAST
Bremerton
KEEP LEFT

placed on the center island where it'll be prominent in a driver's field of view once s/he has entered the circle. With luck, drivers would wonder why WA 16 traffic needs to keep left while Borgen and Centerwood traffic doesn't.

plus a shield and banner assembly

EAST
WA 16
(diagonally up & left arrow)

near the end of the yellow-striped zone. Maybe make the yellow-striped zone narrower, too.

I would not be opposed to that. Something is better than what exists now, which is basically for drivers to ignore the markings (problematic as noted in my sentence and link right before the above image).

The southbound Canterwood approach actually has writings in the lane, that could be useful in the roundabout too.

[Tom958]

If you exit off the freeway to the far left lane, you most certainly can go left without changing lanes.  Am I missing something?

Also, has this roundabout actually been a problem?

That was my take initially, but I trust jakeroot not to present a nonproblem as a problem. 

[jakeroot]

If you exit off the freeway to the far left lane, you most certainly can go left without changing lanes.  Am I missing something?

Also, has this roundabout actually been a problem?

That was my take initially, but I trust jakeroot not to present a nonproblem as a problem. 

I only brought it up because I got turned around in it recently, while out driving for Lyft. It's pretty close to where I live.

[jakeroot]

This might be the smallest multi-lane turbo roundabout in the world. The middle bit of the roundabout is only about 20 feet in diameter.

It's near Coulon Park in Renton, WA, technically not a "public" road but it's publicly accessible.

(Overhead View) (Street View)


Very Small Multilane Turbo Roundabout by Jacob Root, on Flickr

[kalvado]

This might be the smallest multi-lane turbo roundabout in the world. The middle bit of the roundabout is only about 20 feet in diameter.

It's near Coulon Park in Renton, WA, technically not a "public" road but it's publicly accessible.

(Overhead View) (Street View)


Very Small Multilane Turbo Roundabout by Jacob Root, on Flickr

As marijuana gets legalized, we may see more of these being implemented. Design under influence should be legal!

[jakeroot]

As marijuana gets legalized, we may see more of these being implemented. Design under influence should be legal!

It's not well signed either (no advanced warning, just yield signs and sharks teeth). I went through yesterday and almost no one was yielding or following the lane lines. It was basically an unsigned T-intersection. The lack of any visible markings in the middle does not help. Renton normally uses Botts Dots but this is private property so they used terrible apparently-non-reflective markings.

[tradephoric]

There were 300 crashes reported in 2019 at the Homer Watson and Ottawa Street roundabout in Kitchener according to the 2020 Region of Waterloo collision report.  That's the highest number of crashes I've ever seen reported in a year at any roundabout in North America. 


https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/living-here/resources/Documents/Future-Construction/2020-Annual-Collision-Report.pdf

[7/8]

There were 300 crashes reported in 2019 at the Homer Watson and Ottawa Street roundabout in Kitchener according to the 2020 Region of Waterloo collision report.  That's the highest number of crashes I've ever seen reported in a year at any roundabout in North America. 

Kitchener #1!

I think the car traffic moves better through there with the roundabouts, but it can be pretty daunting the first time you use the dual 3-lane roundabouts. I can't even imagine trying to cross the 3-lane exits as a pedestrian!

It was already one of the most crash-prone intersections in the Region, but I think going with 2-lane roundabouts would've been worth the increased congestion for better safety.

EDIT: They should've learned their lesson on 3-lane roundabouts after the Homer Watson/Block Line issues (which has had its third lane blocked for roughly a decade now!)

[kalvado]

There were 300 crashes reported in 2019 at the Homer Watson and Ottawa Street roundabout in Kitchener according to the 2020 Region of Waterloo collision report.  That's the highest number of crashes I've ever seen reported in a year at any roundabout in North America. 

Kitchener #1!

I think the car traffic moves better through there with the roundabouts, but it can be pretty daunting the first time you use the dual 3-lane roundabouts. I can't even imagine trying to cross the 3-lane exits as a pedestrian!

It was already one of the most crash-prone intersections in the Region, but I think going with 2-lane roundabouts would've been worth the increased congestion for better safety.

EDIT: They should've learned their lesson on 3-lane roundabouts after the Homer Watson/Block Line issues (which has had its third lane blocked for roughly a decade now!)

Three lane roundabout is pretty much a screw hammered in with a microscope.

[kphoger]

Did people, like, forget how to drive in 2019 or something?   

Every single intersection on there went up 2018→2019 and then down 2019→2020.  And quite a few of them were by a significant amount.

[kalvado]

Did people, like, forget how to drive in 2019 or something?   

Every single intersection on there went up 2018→2019 and then down 2019→2020.  And quite a few of them were by a significant amount.

1
There was a slight reduction in traffic in 2020 due to a little-known public health condition. THat, probably, affected the number of crashes in 2020 (and, to a lesser extent, in 2021)

[kphoger]

There was a slight reduction in traffic in 2020 due to a little-known public health condition. THat, probably, affected the number of crashes in 2020 (and, to a lesser extent, in 2021)

1.  I recall having heard multiple times that crashes went up during the early days of the pandemic, not down.  Were roundabouts immune to this phenomenon?

2.  That does nothing to explain the dramatic jump from 2018 to 2019.

8% jump – Ottawa & Alpine (ramp)
52% jump – Clyde & Franklin
65% jump – Ottawa & Homer Watson
126% jump – Franklin & Main
241% jump – Dundas & Franklin
266% jump – Franklin & Pinebush
1000% jump – Franklin & Champlain
#DIV/0! – Erb & Landfill Gate 1
#DIV/0! – Erb & Landfill Gate 2

Those numbers don't strike you as strange?

[kalvado]

There was a slight reduction in traffic in 2020 due to a little-known public health condition. THat, probably, affected the number of crashes in 2020 (and, to a lesser extent, in 2021)

1.  I recall having heard multiple times that crashes went up during the early days of the pandemic, not down.  Were roundabouts immune to this phenomenon?

SOmetimes you have to look at the numbers closely. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-show-increased-traffic-fatalities-during-pandemic and https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813118
Similar fatality level in Jan-Feb 2020, down in Mar-May, UP in Jun-Dec.
Significant growth of non-buckled deaths (police didn't enforce things too much, so...). 
Another one from first hand experience - highways were much less crowded, but average speed went up by 10-20 MPH (above normal "speed limit +10-15 MPH").
Bottom line: no, people didn't forget how to drive in 2020; but they definitely got much less afraid of being pulled over.