News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Is a city "served by" a certain Interstate?

Started by wxfree, October 11, 2021, 11:22:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

wxfree

I would like to have some way of knowing what "served by" means in this context.  If an Interstate carries a bunch of traffic to and from a city, saying that the city isn't served by that Interstate just because it's technically 10 feet outside of the city limit is absurd.

I propose a definition of service that's based on proximity and destination.  First, if an Interstate has an access point inside a city, that's service.  If an Interstate is inside a city and has an access point nearby, that's service.  If an Interstate is never inside a city, that's when we use the proximity and destination criteria.

Is Dallas "served by" I-10?  If you're in Dallas and want to drive to Los Angeles, then the road serves you.  But that's an extreme example.  I propose using a reasonably short distance, about 30 miles or about a half-hour of driving time at reasonable speeds (not 0 mph in heavy traffic or 150 mph in no traffic).  If the Interstate is within that distance of some part of a city, along other Interstates, then it meets the proximity eligibility.  The second question is destination, by which I mean that the Interstate is the best way to get from the place "served by" it to the places that Interstate goes.  By my criteria, Fort Worth is served by I-45, because it's within about 30 miles of the city along other Interstates, and it's the best way to get from there to Houston.  Chicago is served by I-65, because it starts close to the city and is the best way to get to Indianapolis, and the best way to get from there to Chicago.  Dallas is not served by I-10 because it's too far away and couldn't reasonably be considered a road important to people in Dallas.

For smaller towns, I would say that the town is served by an Interstate if it's the best way to get to the nearest bigger city that serves the town's populace.
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?


ran4sh

The MUTCD even says that city limits are often arbitrary and should generally be ignored, particularly when distinguishing urban interstates and rural interstates.

I would say that, at a minimum, an Interstate that enters the urbanized area of a city (even if not in the city limit) and has an interchange within such area, "serves" that city. It could be argued what exactly the urban area is, but a good starting point would be the US Census Bureau's delineations of urban areas (not the same thing as metro areas).
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

SkyPesos

According to one forum user, I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore.

wxfree

Quote from: SkyPesos on October 11, 2021, 11:34:02 PM
According to one forum user, I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore.

That's what my "10 feet outside of the city limit" reference is based on.
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?

roadman65

Quote from: SkyPesos on October 11, 2021, 11:34:02 PM
According to one forum user, I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore.

Just like I-40 don't serve Los Angeles, yet AZDOT Signs it west of Flagstaff.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Dirt Roads

Long before US-64 was upgraded, I-85 was the north-south route that "served" most of Raleigh, North Carolina from the northeast.  The only times I used I-95 to get to Raleigh was when I was working on other projects along the former Atlantic Coast Line between Emporia and Rocky Mount.  Even today, I-85 is nowhere near the sprawling Raleigh metro area (and certainly wasn't back then when the Raleigh metro was just outside of the Beltline.

Uhh, should I consider the same problem with I-95 now serving Raleigh?  Maybe I'd better wait for I-87 to get posted.

paulthemapguy

I kinda asked this as a clarification in the "Cities served by the most 2di interstates" thread.  This didn't need to be an entirely new thread.  There is also no need to be entirely this technical about this, fighting pedantry with pedantry.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

Max Rockatansky

Is this "served"  like when someone busts out into a hip hop song and gives someone a musical beat down? 

wxfree

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 11, 2021, 11:57:25 PM
Is this "served"  like when someone busts out into a hip hop song and gives someone a musical beat down?

If I remember correctly, according so South Park, if they "serve" you and then you "serve" them back, now "it's on."
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?

KeithE4Phx

Quote from: roadman65 on October 11, 2021, 11:47:27 PM
Just like I-40 don't serve Los Angeles, yet AZDOT Signs it west of Flagstaff.

I-40 most certainly does serve Los Angeles.  Just not directly. 

If one is traveling from OKC to LA, he's driving on I-40 most of the way.  It's just that he has to get on I-15 and then I-10 (or other suburban LA-area freeway) to get there.  No biggie.
"Oh, so you hate your job? Well, why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called "EVERYBODY!" They meet at the bar." -- Drew Carey

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: wxfree on October 12, 2021, 12:01:03 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 11, 2021, 11:57:25 PM
Is this "served"  like when someone busts out into a hip hop song and gives someone a musical beat down?

If I remember correctly, according so South Park, if they "serve" you and then you "serve" them back, now "it's on."

Yes, so what Interstates are "serving"  cities?  What cities have "served"  the Interstates back because "it's on?"

roadman65

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 12, 2021, 12:02:55 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 11, 2021, 11:47:27 PM
Just like I-40 don't serve Los Angeles, yet AZDOT Signs it west of Flagstaff.

I-40 most certainly does serve Los Angeles.  Just not directly. 

If one is traveling from OKC to LA, he's driving on I-40 most of the way.  It's just that he has to get on I-15 and then I-10 (or other suburban LA-area freeway) to get there.  No biggie.

I know that, but responding to the user who claims I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore a while back.  I was pointing out ( hopefully that certain user will see my post) that if I-40 serves Los Angeles, than I-70 definitely serves Baltimore.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

KeithE4Phx

Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2021, 12:09:08 AM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 12, 2021, 12:02:55 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 11, 2021, 11:47:27 PM
Just like I-40 don't serve Los Angeles, yet AZDOT Signs it west of Flagstaff.

I-40 most certainly does serve Los Angeles.  Just not directly. 

If one is traveling from OKC to LA, he's driving on I-40 most of the way.  It's just that he has to get on I-15 and then I-10 (or other suburban LA-area freeway) to get there.  No biggie.

I know that, but responding to the user who claims I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore a while back.  I was pointing out ( hopefully that certain user will see my post) that if I-40 serves Los Angeles, than I-70 definitely serves Baltimore.

I-40 serves LA.  So does I-15.  Both serve LA because they drive traffic to the LA metro area and eventually to the city proper, even though neither enters the LA city limits (and I-40 doesn't even come close).

I-70 serves Baltimore  So does I-97.
I-65, I-80, and I-88 serve Chicago.
I-78, 80, and 87 don't serve NYC?  OK, 78 does touch Manhattan.  Barely.

Some people need to get over it.  Metro areas are what matter.  City limits do not.
"Oh, so you hate your job? Well, why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called "EVERYBODY!" They meet at the bar." -- Drew Carey

wxfree

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 12, 2021, 12:39:14 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 12, 2021, 12:09:08 AM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 12, 2021, 12:02:55 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 11, 2021, 11:47:27 PM
Just like I-40 don't serve Los Angeles, yet AZDOT Signs it west of Flagstaff.

I-40 most certainly does serve Los Angeles.  Just not directly. 

If one is traveling from OKC to LA, he's driving on I-40 most of the way.  It's just that he has to get on I-15 and then I-10 (or other suburban LA-area freeway) to get there.  No biggie.

I know that, but responding to the user who claims I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore a while back.  I was pointing out ( hopefully that certain user will see my post) that if I-40 serves Los Angeles, than I-70 definitely serves Baltimore.

I-40 serves LA.  So does I-15.  Both serve LA because they drive traffic to the LA metro area and eventually to the city proper, even though neither enters the LA city limits (and I-40 doesn't even come close).

I-70 serves Baltimore  So does I-97.
I-65, I-80, and I-88 serve Chicago.
I-78, 80, and 87 don't serve NYC?  OK, 78 does touch Manhattan.  Barely.

Some people need to get over it.  Metro areas are what matter.  City limits do not.

My intent is to start a pragmatic discussion of what service means, based on compromise and understanding of differing views.  I would say that I-40 accesses Los Angeles, but does not service it, and that these are two different things.  How often do people in Los Angeles need to go to Needles?  Service is a balance between distance and need.  I say that I-45 serves Fort Worth because it is fairly close to the city and leads to a major destination Worthians might be inclined to go to with some frequency.  I-40 is useful to people in Los Angeles only for travel of such long distances that it is rarely needed and is so far away that most Angelinos don't think of it as a road that they have significant use for.  My suggestion is that we not emphasize either metro areas or city limits, but usefulness.
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?

achilles765

Personally, I think an interstate serves a city if it actually goes through the city itself...or the metro area...in a significant way.  For small towns, if there is an exit with the town name on it, and it connects it to a bigger city, it's served by that interstate.

I-45 does not serve Ft. worth in my mind.  Ft. Worth is served by I-35W, I-20, and I-30.  And I-820, plus all the US and State Highways that run through it.  Dallas is served by I-20, I-30, I-35E, I-45 and I-635.  San Antonio is served by I-10, I-35, I-37, and I-410.  For Houston: I-10, I-45, I-69, I-610.

  My hometown of Kentwood, Louisiana is served by I-55; Hammond, LA is served by I-12 and I-55.  I don't consider Slidell technically "served" by I-59; and certainly not New Orleans.  I-12 and I-10 serve Slidell. 
To me, New Orleans is served by I-10, I-310, I-510, and I-610. 
I love freeways and roads in any state but Texas will always be first in my heart

webny99

The Baltimore thing has been beat to death, but I would be interested in whether people think that I-94 "serves" St. Cloud, MN, for example (I believe I've argued no before on this forum.)

Or does I-90 "serve" Rochester and Syracuse, NY, even though it doesn't enter the city limits? And does the presence of 3di's for that route affect whether or not it is "served"?

NWI_Irish96

1. Interstate actually enters city = serves (example: I-70 serves Baltimore)

2. Interstate passes near major city requiring changing interstates for only a short distance to reach city = serves (example: I-80 serves New York)

3. Interstate does not enter a city but passes close enough that businesses at the exits will have that city as their address = serves (example: I-70 serves Dayton)

4. Interstate is a primary route for getting to a major city but requires changing interstates for a significant distance to reach city = does NOT serve (example: I-40 does not serve Los Angeles)

To me, the line between Categories 2 and 4 is something like I-65 and Chicago. It gets you close, but not really close. It can go either way.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

jbnv

Quote from: achilles765 on October 12, 2021, 03:32:28 AM
I don't consider Slidell technically "served" by I-59; and certainly not New Orleans. ... To me, New Orleans is served by I-10, I-310, I-510, and I-610.

New Orleans is just as "served" by I-59 as Los Angeles is by I-40.

If we're talking signage, then I-10 still "serves" Bay St. Louis even though there's less logic to using Bay St. Louis as an I-10 control city than using New Orleans as an I-59 control city.
🆕 Louisiana Highways on Twitter | Yes, I like Clearview. Deal with it. | Redos: US | La. | Route Challenge

froggie

QuoteThe Baltimore thing has been beat to death, but I would be interested in whether people think that I-94 "serves" St. Cloud, MN, for example (I believe I've argued no before on this forum.)

Moot point given the commercial area (including I-94) around Exit 171 is inside the city limits, as is the new Opportunity Pkwy interchange and the 94/15 cloverleaf.

epzik8

Quote from: SkyPesos on October 11, 2021, 11:34:02 PM
According to one forum user, I-70 doesn't serve Baltimore.
I don't think that would be me
From the land of red, white, yellow and black.
____________________________

My clinched highways: http://tm.teresco.org/user/?u=epzik8
My clinched counties: http://mob-rule.com/user-gifs/USA/epzik8.gif

webny99

Quote from: froggie on October 12, 2021, 10:33:16 AM
QuoteThe Baltimore thing has been beat to death, but I would be interested in whether people think that I-94 "serves" St. Cloud, MN, for example (I believe I've argued no before on this forum.)

Moot point given the commercial area (including I-94) around Exit 171 is inside the city limits, as is the new Opportunity Pkwy interchange and the 94/15 cloverleaf.

Is that a recent development?

hbelkins

If you think of the terms "serve" and "service" in the same way that a bull serves or services a cow, then this thread can take all kinds of screwy (pun intended) twists and turns.

Does I-70 serve DC? I'd argue yes, although you have to use I-270, I-495, and other routes to get into the district. DC is even listed on I-70 signage at Breezewood, along with Baltimore.

How about I-22? Does it serve either Memphis or Birmingham?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

thspfc

Per the I-10 and Dallas example, I could say that I-95 serves Seattle because it's part of the route between Seattle and Portland, ME.

My definition would be that the Interstate has to have at least one of three things:

a. an access point within city limits
b. a freeway connection of less than 20 miles
c. a non-freeway connection of less than 10 miles

froggie

Quote from: webny99 on October 12, 2021, 12:58:08 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 12, 2021, 10:33:16 AM
QuoteThe Baltimore thing has been beat to death, but I would be interested in whether people think that I-94 "serves" St. Cloud, MN, for example (I believe I've argued no before on this forum.)

Moot point given the commercial area (including I-94) around Exit 171 is inside the city limits, as is the new Opportunity Pkwy interchange and the 94/15 cloverleaf.

Is that a recent development?

Only the Opportunity Pkwy interchange.  St Cloud has reached I-94 at Exit 171 for at least 20 years, and there's been gas stations there dating back to when I was a kid.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.