News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered at https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33904.0
Corrected several already and appreciate your patience as we work through the rest.

Main Menu

What is "The South?"

Started by CoreySamson, November 26, 2022, 12:36:31 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

CoreySamson

So I've seen some arguments on the internet over the past couple months that are all trying to decide one thing: what are the bounds of the American South? I've seen several interesting takes on this; some people lump in all of Texas and Oklahoma into the south, some just generally refer to southern states as being the former confederate states, and others (such as Matt Mitchell) are hesitant to include cities such as Atlanta and Nashville as southern. As for me, here are the bounds of what I consider the South to be:



I feel that these borders properly encompass the South. I do recognize that Southern culture does have some sub-cultures, such as Appalachian culture, Mid-Atlantic (Old South) culture, Texas ranch culture, and others. However, I don't really consider them to be truly southern in culture. I know a ton of people will disagree, so what do you think encompasses the South?

P.S. Moderators feel free to move this if you feel it belongs in a regional board.
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

My Route Log
My Clinches

Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!


kkt

I would definitely include Richmond in the South.  Ex-in-laws from there, and there was no way they could not be considered southern.  Great people, as long as we avoided certain topics.

6a

Where the White Castle/Krystal divide happens, where Checkers becomes Rally's, where slaw becomes a condiment instead of a side dish. I've lived in both parts of the country (and have wanted to map this, but I'm lazy), but those are my starting points.

Hot Rod Hootenanny

Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

jlam

Using my experience in the South and local climate, I would go with this area:



Note that this region is very different from the Deep South, which consists of the Bible Belt (MS, AL, GA) and parts of surrounding states.

texaskdog

Any state that seceded.  Lol.

Scott5114

I always feel conflicted when this issue is brought up. Oklahoma and Texas have some things in common with the South (political conservatism, love of college football, religiosity, sweet tea) but the culture there is way different than in the Deep South. When I visited Louisiana and Mississippi earlier this year for the Natchez meet, I felt like I was in an entirely foreign country.

Maybe Oklahoma and Texas are the Shallow South.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

US 89

Quote from: jlam on November 26, 2022, 01:46:59 AM
Using my experience in the South and local climate, I would go with this area:



Note that this region is very different from the Deep South, which consists of the Bible Belt (MS, AL, GA) and parts of surrounding states.

Too expansive. In my experience, the south should not include anything along or west of the I-45 corridor in Texas, nor anything in Oklahoma west of US 69.

Most of Oklahoma and Kansas and even most of northern Texas I would identify as a "Southern Plains"  region that shares some features with the south but has stronger affinities with the Midwest, with some western or Mexican influence the farther west or south you go. Tulsa feels way more similar to Omaha than Little Rock. Dallas feels more like Kansas City than Shreveport. And so on...

texaskdog

Or as they say, Texas is not the south, it's Texas!

Ted$8roadFan

Another definition could include all of the counties and states (in orange) that voted for George Wallace in 1968.

https://images.app.goo.gl/8F81QcDAj6f3bAx36

SEWIGuy

IMO, based solely on my experiences, you should include Houston in the south - and that would be as far west as you want to go in Texas.

Dallas has more of a midwestern feel.  There are times that I have been in the suburbs of Dallas, and I felt that I may as well be in "warm Chicagoland."

San Antonio has a southwestern feel.  Austin is a big, University town.

epzik8

Atlanta and Nashville are firmly southern. The bootheel can also get away with being called southern.
From the land of red, white, yellow and black.
____________________________

My clinched highways: http://tm.teresco.org/user/?u=epzik8
My clinched counties: http://mob-rule.com/user-gifs/USA/epzik8.gif

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded. 

This is the base definition I tend to go with.  Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded. 

This is the base definition I tend to go with.  Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.

The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2022, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded. 

This is the base definition I tend to go with.  Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.

The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.

Gets a rise out of my cousin in Haymarket to say that they are. 

1995hoo

#15
Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2022, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded. 

This is the base definition I tend to go with.  Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.

The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.

Historically, they definitely were. Maryland was historically considered the South as well, in part because it was a slave state despite not seceding. But there's no question that the DC suburbs have been annexed. The cultural line between North and South has moved further south during my lifetime. Fredericksburg would have been deemed firmly Southern when I was a kid, but it's been annexed now as well–the cultural line is somewhere between Fredericksburg and Richmond, though east of there I'd say it curls north a bit. The eastern end of the Northern Neck (Lancaster County) has a far more Southern feel to it than the Fredericksburg area, for example. West of I-95 is a bit hard to delineate in places as well. Charlottesville feels a lot less Southern than it did in the early 1990s, for example (and I'm not referring to the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue, either).

It's interesting to note that the national park in Manassas is called the Manassas National Battlefield Park (not Bull Run). I wonder if at some point the revisionists will push to rename it to Bull Run because First Manassas and Second Manassas are the Southern names for those two battles.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

pianocello

#16
You guys are pretty close on the line in Florida, but I'll be more specific -- I think it should run about SW-NE along the Alachua-Marion County line and its extension - Gainesville is South, Ocala is horse country. Palm Coast isn't South, but Palatka and St. Augustine are. Levy County is South, but I think Citrus County marks the beginnings of snowbird territory.

(Edit to add: I just realized this line I made up perfectly coincides with FDOT districts. Districts 2 and 3 are South, the rest are not.)

On the northern side, I would default to the Ohio River being the boundary between South and Not South. But in my experience there isn't much cultural difference between Kentucky and Indiana (minus the steel mills and suburbs in the northwest), and I've noticed the accents generally start to kick in once you go south of US 30 in Indiana. I don't know if I want to pull the trigger and put most of Indiana in The South, but excluding Kentucky also feels weird to me.
Davenport, IA -> Valparaiso, IN -> Ames, IA -> Orlando, FL -> Gainesville, FL -> Evansville, IN

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: pianocello on November 26, 2022, 09:36:22 AM
You guys are pretty close on the line in Florida, but I'll be more specific -- I think it should run about SW-NE along the Alachua-Marion County line and its extension - Gainesville is South, Ocala is horse country. Palm Coast isn't South, but Palatka and St. Augustine are. Levy County is South, but I think Citrus County marks the beginnings of snowbird territory.

(Edit to add: I just realized this line I made up perfectly coincides with FDOT districts. Districts 2 and 3 are South, the rest are not.)

On the northern side, I would default to the Ohio River being the boundary between South and Not South. But in my experience there isn't much cultural difference between Kentucky and Indiana (minus the steel mills and suburbs in the northwest), and I've noticed the accents generally start to kick in once you go south of US 30 in Indiana. I don't know if I want to pull the trigger and put most of Indiana in The South, but excluding Kentucky also feels weird to me.

Using Indiana as an example but believing this to be true in most places, there's no sharp dividing line. As you move away from the Michigan state line, Indiana becomes gradually more southern as you move south. There isn't a single road or natural feature where there's really a marked difference. If you want to use the very subjective criteria of "more southern than not," you'd end up with a boundary that places Terre Haute, Greencastle, Plainfield, Greenwood, Greenfield and Richmond in the north, with Cloverdale, Mooresville, Franklin, Shelbyville, Rushville and Connersville in the south.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

WillWeaverRVA

My general rule is any former Confederate state, except for Texas (which was a Confederate state but has a much different character than much of the rest of the South), the DC metropolitan area in Virginia (you could probably argue this extends as far south as I-295, honestly), and Florida south of Orlando.
Will Weaver
WillWeaverRVA Photography | Twitter

"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

skluth

Having grown up in the Great White North, anything south of Chicago is The South™.

Ted$8roadFan

It may not be true anymore, but in the past both Louisville, KY and Baltimore, MD have been considered the northernmost southern city and the southernmost northern city.   

skluth

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on November 26, 2022, 10:54:04 AM
It may not be true anymore, but in the past both Louisville, KY and Baltimore, MD have been considered the northernmost southern city and the southernmost northern city.

I also heard that used for St Louis when I moved there. It was a point of contention between the North and South during the Civil War, as Union forces held the city itself but rural areas around St Louis were strongly pro-Confederate.  St Louis natives also said it was the easternmost western city and westernmost eastern city due to its claim as Gateway to the West (as symbolized by the Arch) and its industrial nature circa 1904 World's Fair. Having lived there close to 30 years I can definitely say there are elements of the North, South, East, and West in the St Louis Metro and more than I've seen anywhere else in the US.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on November 26, 2022, 01:23:29 AM
Anything below I-70

I had a friend from Wildwood, Florida who always joked that I-10 was the Mason Dixon line. 

CoreySamson

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 26, 2022, 02:00:07 AM
I always feel conflicted when this issue is brought up. Oklahoma and Texas have some things in common with the South (political conservatism, love of college football, religiosity, sweet tea) but the culture there is way different than in the Deep South. When I visited Louisiana and Mississippi earlier this year for the Natchez meet, I felt like I was in an entirely foreign country.

Maybe Oklahoma and Texas are the Shallow South.
There is definitely some overlap between Texas/Oklahoma culture and Southern culture, but I agree that they are different. Tulsa in particular to me feels Midwestern, and nowhere I've been to in OK has truly felt "Southern". Texas is trickier. To me, everything that is in a pine forest in Texas is definitely southern (Beaumont, Lufkin, Tyler, Texarkana, etc.), but anything west of that is not. Then there's the tricky issue of classifying Houston. To me it almost feels that it is hard to classify as Texan or Southern because it is so substantially different than both of those cultures. It's like a cultural island given how diverse it is, much like how Miami is to Florida. In fact, Miami seems to be the metro area with whom Houston shares the most in common.
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

My Route Log
My Clinches

Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!

FrCorySticha

Quote from: skluth on November 26, 2022, 11:03:19 AM
I also heard that used for St Louis when I moved there. It was a point of contention between the North and South during the Civil War, as Union forces held the city itself but rural areas around St Louis were strongly pro-Confederate.  St Louis natives also said it was the easternmost western city and westernmost eastern city due to its claim as Gateway to the West (as symbolized by the Arch) and its industrial nature circa 1904 World's Fair. Having lived there close to 30 years I can definitely say there are elements of the North, South, East, and West in the St Louis Metro and more than I've seen anywhere else in the US.

Agreed on the mixed cultures in St. Louis. Perhaps the south begins once you get south of the Metro area.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.