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Caltrans External Exit Tabs & 240 Inch Tall Overhead Signs

Started by jeffe, April 18, 2021, 03:48:13 AM

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Great Lakes Roads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRzZJO4VrMI

While I couldn't find an updated streetview image on this section of the project, the new southbound auxiliary lane on I-15 between exits 91 and 90 features the first new updated Caltrans external exits tabs on monotube gantries!


on_wisconsin

#126
^
Capped from above:

OT: Ten years ago this half of this thread would be full of semi-toxic rage about how CalTrans is destroying Americana (or something about rust/ US 66)...
"Speed does not kill, suddenly becoming stationary... that's what gets you" - Jeremy Clarkson

Scott5114

Quote from: on_wisconsin on July 29, 2022, 12:21:57 AM
OT: Ten years ago this half of this thread would be full of semi-toxic rage about how CalTrans is destroying Americana (or something about rust/ US 66)...

Of course, ten years ago would have been back when everything was button copy and we had really yet to see the depths of suck that the bitten-out exit tabs would end up causing. Once the button copy was gone, there was nothing left worth being protective over.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

TheStranger

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 29, 2022, 01:47:27 PM
Quote from: on_wisconsin on July 29, 2022, 12:21:57 AM
OT: Ten years ago this half of this thread would be full of semi-toxic rage about how CalTrans is destroying Americana (or something about rust/ US 66)...

Of course, ten years ago would have been back when everything was button copy and we had really yet to see the depths of suck that the bitten-out exit tabs would end up causing. Once the button copy was gone, there was nothing left worth being protective over.

To be fair, 2009-2010 was when Sacramento first got a ton of retroreflective overhead BGS signage with internal tabs + exit number gore point signage (the pre-2020 single-post ones similar to the older, pre-number gore signage).

SF basically had exit numbers added for the first time ever on much of the Bayshore Freeway portion of US 101 this past year.  But a lot of the signage in town has already been retroreflective since 2000 or so, i.e. the portion of I-280 that still doesn't much in the way of number signing between Route 1 and Mariposa Street.

Chris Sampang

Techknow

I was looking at Max's article on I-5 through the Sacramento River Canyon when I found... external exit tabs!!!!

Check his article for the photos, but northbound exits 685, 687, 689, 690 all have external exit tabs.

How old are these external exit tabs? Very old, I can see them in GSV since 2007.

roadfro

Quote from: Techknow on August 12, 2022, 02:07:57 AM
I was looking at Max's article on I-5 through the Sacramento River Canyon when I found... external exit tabs!!!!

Check his article for the photos, but northbound exits 685, 687, 689, 690 all have external exit tabs.

How old are these external exit tabs? Very old, I can see them in GSV since 2007.

Those are post-mounted signs and not overhead signs, so those aren't as remarkable. Some Caltrans districts just added external tabs to existing post-mounted signs when the CalNExUS project started off in the mid-2000s as a quick, cheap way to get some exit numbers on the ground quickly without replacing signs.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Scott5114

The question is, why didn't they do external exit tabs on all post-mounted signs, considering it was cheaper, and wind loading isn't as much of a concern for a post-mounted sign?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Techknow

Quote from: roadfro on August 12, 2022, 11:34:34 AM
Those are post-mounted signs and not overhead signs, so those aren't as remarkable. Some Caltrans districts just added external tabs to existing post-mounted signs when the CalNExUS project started off in the mid-2000s as a quick, cheap way to get some exit numbers on the ground quickly without replacing signs.

I see, I didn't know that was done in the past. That makes a lot of sense, TheStranger also posted external exit tabs in this topic that can also be seen in GSV circa 2007. It appears to have been done inconsistently though, like the exit tab experiment in LA at I-210 I think.

Scott5114 brings a good point too!

cahwyguy

Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

abqtraveler

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
The MUTCD requires exit numbers on all freeways, full stop. So eventually Caltrans will be required to add them, the same way they were obliged to fix the exit tabs. It's only a matter of when FHWA decides to show their teeth on that particular provision of the MUTCD.
With that said, I'm curious as to if or when the FHWA will require CALTRANS to start installing standard mileposts on its highways in lieu of the current county postmile system the state currently uses. I recall that there are stretches of CA-58 and CA-14 in the Mojave area that use the green mileposts we're all familiar with, but those are the only two stretches of road I've seen them on in California.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

roadfro

Quote from: abqtraveler on August 19, 2022, 09:20:17 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
The MUTCD requires exit numbers on all freeways, full stop. So eventually Caltrans will be required to add them, the same way they were obliged to fix the exit tabs. It's only a matter of when FHWA decides to show their teeth on that particular provision of the MUTCD.
With that said, I'm curious as to if or when the FHWA will require CALTRANS to start installing standard mileposts on its highways in lieu of the current county postmile system the state currently uses. I recall that there are stretches of CA-58 and CA-14 in the Mojave area that use the green mileposts we're all familiar with, but those are the only two stretches of road I've seen them on in California.
I seem to recall CalTrans also has MUTCD-style standard milepost signs on US 6.

I think CalTrans has no desire to do standard mileposts whatsoever. They finally gave in on exit numbering, but I think they'd balk a little more on the mileposts...that would be an even more significant expense. Although they could gradually implement both...Nevada uses a system similar to California's county postmiles on all highways, but also uses the MUTCD standard mileposts on interstates (current practice is to use the enhanced mileposts with shields).
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

jdbx

Quote from: roadfro on August 19, 2022, 11:33:35 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on August 19, 2022, 09:20:17 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
The MUTCD requires exit numbers on all freeways, full stop. So eventually Caltrans will be required to add them, the same way they were obliged to fix the exit tabs. It's only a matter of when FHWA decides to show their teeth on that particular provision of the MUTCD.
With that said, I'm curious as to if or when the FHWA will require CALTRANS to start installing standard mileposts on its highways in lieu of the current county postmile system the state currently uses. I recall that there are stretches of CA-58 and CA-14 in the Mojave area that use the green mileposts we're all familiar with, but those are the only two stretches of road I've seen them on in California.
I seem to recall CalTrans also has MUTCD-style standard milepost signs on US 6.

I think CalTrans has no desire to do standard mileposts whatsoever. They finally gave in on exit numbering, but I think they'd balk a little more on the mileposts...that would be an even more significant expense. Although they could gradually implement both...Nevada uses a system similar to California's county postmiles on all highways, but also uses the MUTCD standard mileposts on interstates (current practice is to use the enhanced mileposts with shields).

Considering the fact that it is 20 years after CalNEXUS was announced and even now we do not have truly consistent exit numbering everywhere....  even if they declared an intention to begin installing MUTCD mileposts today, I would not expect that job to be complete within my lifetime, and I am "only" 43.


Scott5114

Quote from: abqtraveler on August 19, 2022, 09:20:17 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
The MUTCD requires exit numbers on all freeways, full stop. So eventually Caltrans will be required to add them, the same way they were obliged to fix the exit tabs. It's only a matter of when FHWA decides to show their teeth on that particular provision of the MUTCD.
With that said, I'm curious as to if or when the FHWA will require CALTRANS to start installing standard mileposts on its highways in lieu of the current county postmile system the state currently uses. I recall that there are stretches of CA-58 and CA-14 in the Mojave area that use the green mileposts we're all familiar with, but those are the only two stretches of road I've seen them on in California.

I doubt it. There are plenty of states that don't have any form of mileposts on conventional roads at all (e.g. Oklahoma). Other states have mileposts but don't use standard milepost signage for them (like Kansas) or all mileage signage is based on an internal reference scheme not really meant for public use (Texas).

If there's a change mandating the use of milemarkers on all roads, California wouldn't be the only state affected.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 19, 2022, 07:13:39 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on August 19, 2022, 09:20:17 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
The MUTCD requires exit numbers on all freeways, full stop. So eventually Caltrans will be required to add them, the same way they were obliged to fix the exit tabs. It's only a matter of when FHWA decides to show their teeth on that particular provision of the MUTCD.
With that said, I'm curious as to if or when the FHWA will require CALTRANS to start installing standard mileposts on its highways in lieu of the current county postmile system the state currently uses. I recall that there are stretches of CA-58 and CA-14 in the Mojave area that use the green mileposts we're all familiar with, but those are the only two stretches of road I've seen them on in California.

I doubt it. There are plenty of states that don't have any form of mileposts on conventional roads at all (e.g. Oklahoma). Other states have mileposts but don't use standard milepost signage for them (like Kansas) or all mileage signage is based on an internal reference scheme not really meant for public use (Texas).

If there's a change mandating the use of milemarkers on all roads, California wouldn't be the only state affected.

Nevada uses both Mile Markers and Postmiles also.  I see no need to remove the Postmiles in any scenario where Mile Markers become common in California. 

myosh_tino

#139
Quote from: roadfro on August 19, 2022, 11:33:35 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on August 19, 2022, 09:20:17 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
The MUTCD requires exit numbers on all freeways, full stop. So eventually Caltrans will be required to add them, the same way they were obliged to fix the exit tabs. It's only a matter of when FHWA decides to show their teeth on that particular provision of the MUTCD.
With that said, I'm curious as to if or when the FHWA will require CALTRANS to start installing standard mileposts on its highways in lieu of the current county postmile system the state currently uses. I recall that there are stretches of CA-58 and CA-14 in the Mojave area that use the green mileposts we're all familiar with, but those are the only two stretches of road I've seen them on in California.
I seem to recall CalTrans also has MUTCD-style standard milepost signs on US 6.


Not sure about US 6 but the green mileposts on CA-58 were removed in 2016 at the request of the local Caltrans district.  IIRC the reason was they were too confusing for local law enforcement and the CHP when it came to locating incidents on the highway.

But then in late 2020, these appeared on a 3.5 mile stretch of CA-17 from the Santa Clara/Santa Cruz county line to just before the Lexington Reservoir...



Link to that particular discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=27944.0
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

stevashe

Quote from: myosh_tino on August 19, 2022, 08:55:57 PM
Not sure about US 6 but the green mileposts on CA-58 were removed in 2016 at the request of the local Caltrans district.  IIRC the reason was they were too confusing for local law enforcement and the CHP when it came to locating incidents on the highway.

But then in late 2020, these appeared on a 3.5 mile stretch of CA-17 from the Santa Clara/Santa Cruz county line to just before the Lexington Reservoir...



Link to that particular discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=27944.0

Those signs may be green and use the standard enhanced milepost design, but they're still displaying the mileage from the county line, so they're really just re-skinned post miles rather than true mileposts. (For reference the total mileage at that picture is around 15.4)

vdeane

^ Route mileage resetting at county lines is not unprecedented.  US 41 in Kentucky resets at county lines, as seen in the exit numbers around Henderson, and NY 5's mile markers on the Skyway only include Erie County mileage.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

joshI5

Quote from: jeffe on April 18, 2021, 07:55:15 PM
Digging a little deeper, it looks like right exits will have right aligned plaques and left exits will have left aligned plaques.  No center aligned plaques here. :p

Except, uh, Caltrans *has* been installing center aligned plaques, for some reason. I recently came across these two brand new side-mounted signs along US-101 in Santa Barbara County:




SeriesE

Quote from: joshI5 on August 24, 2022, 01:38:50 PM


Exhibit A of why I don't like the excess padding in MUTCD spec exit tabs. The minimum width of the sign is much larger. When the sign gets too narrow, the tab is going to be as wide as the regular sign, so that the visual hint of the left/right exit tabs won't work.

At least with the older California-spec tabs (when mounted separately), the sign can be much narrower before the same issue shows up.

abqtraveler

Quote from: joshI5 on August 24, 2022, 01:38:50 PM
Quote from: jeffe on April 18, 2021, 07:55:15 PM
Digging a little deeper, it looks like right exits will have right aligned plaques and left exits will have left aligned plaques.  No center aligned plaques here. :p

Except, uh, Caltrans *has* been installing center aligned plaques, for some reason. I recently came across these two brand new side-mounted signs along US-101 in Santa Barbara County:





I suspect they installed those exit tabs that way to utilize the existing sign supports for the exit tab, rather than having to add more steel posts to connect the exit tab to the main sign panel if it were right-aligned like in most other states.  Needless to say, there are a lot of states that have a lot of center-aligned exit tabs, although the latest MUTCD appears to frown upon center-aligned exit tabs.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

ran4sh

It's not just the latest MUTCD that contains a recommendation for right exits to use right-side exit tabs. It's the latest three or four editions. Maybe five.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

jdbx

Quote from: abqtraveler on August 30, 2022, 08:42:36 AM
Quote from: joshI5 on August 24, 2022, 01:38:50 PM
Quote from: jeffe on April 18, 2021, 07:55:15 PM
Digging a little deeper, it looks like right exits will have right aligned plaques and left exits will have left aligned plaques.  No center aligned plaques here. :p

Except, uh, Caltrans *has* been installing center aligned plaques, for some reason. I recently came across these two brand new side-mounted signs along US-101 in Santa Barbara County:





I suspect they installed those exit tabs that way to utilize the existing sign supports for the exit tab, rather than having to add more steel posts to connect the exit tab to the main sign panel if it were right-aligned like in most other states.  Needless to say, there are a lot of states that have a lot of center-aligned exit tabs, although the latest MUTCD appears to frown upon center-aligned exit tabs.

Yup, it looks kind of cheesy like they were doing it on-the-cheap, but I still prefer this to the internal tabs.  I never liked the internal tabs and will say good riddance to see them go, no matter what not-quite-standard form that may take, such as this.

roadfro

Quote from: SeriesE on August 24, 2022, 02:54:08 PM
Exhibit A of why I don't like the excess padding in MUTCD spec exit tabs. The minimum width of the sign is much larger. When the sign gets too narrow, the tab is going to be as wide as the regular sign, so that the visual hint of the left/right exit tabs won't work.

Sometimes, it's just unavoidable though, even if there isn't padding in the tab. Not California, but Exhibit B.

But I totally agree with you on the exit tab padding that seems to be common as of late. It's crept in to Nevada in a few spots recently, and it just seems unnecessary.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

kphoger

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the alignment of the exit tab?  Doesn't matter one bit to me.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

ClassicHasClass

Are you saying that pedantry is unacceptable on a roadgeek board? At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?



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