Many of us remember 20 years ago, when US 27 was eliminated north of Ft. Wayne, and the former US 27 freeway between Lansing and Grayling was renumbered as US 127. But I didn't realize until recently that MI/IN originally requested that change 25 years prior to that, in 1974. They kinda botched their application to AASHTO, but it's perplexing why they didn't just correct it and resubmit for the following meeting, instead of waiting for another 25 years. Anyway, I've added excerpts from the relevant meeting minutes on this page (https://www.usends.com/27.html).
It's kind of weird that it doesn't just end at 469
AASHTO's denial is available at Wikisource (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/U.S._Route_Numbering_Sub-Committee_Agenda_1974-06-25) (transcription) or Wikimedia Commons (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AASHTO_USRN_1974-06-25.pdf) (scanned document).
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 19, 2020, 10:45:01 PM
It's kind of weird that it doesn't just end at 469
Perhaps Fort Wayne wanted at least one state maintained road besides SR 930 to continue in the city besides the interstates. I believe that they have to agree to the decommissioning and maintenance.
Quote from: Life in Paradise on February 20, 2020, 12:55:35 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 19, 2020, 10:45:01 PM
It's kind of weird that it doesn't just end at 469
Perhaps Fort Wayne wanted at least one state maintained road besides SR 930 to continue in the city besides the interstates. I believe that they have to agree to the decommissioning and maintenance.
A similar situation to relinquishment proceedings in CA; Caltrans can't simply announce they're ceding ownership & maintenance of a segment of roadway to the appropriate local jurisdiction -- that jurisdiction must accept the new agreement prior to the facility being formally relinquished. That's what happened with CA 221 in the Napa area; neither Napa County nor the City of Napa wanted to assume maintenance of that 2+ mile connecting road, so it remains in Caltrans' inventory. Alternately, some local jurisdictions actually initiate the relinquishment process so they can modify or alter the physical characteristics of the road to suit their local plans (cf. old CA 2 through West Hollywood, et al.).
The truncation of US 27 occurred a year after I got out of high school. If I recall correctly one of the big sticking points for MDOT pursuing truncating US 27 was completing the US 127 freeway bypass of DeWitt and St. John's. Once the bypass freeway was open US 27 made almost no sense in favor of US 127 north of Lansing. I recall US 27 was signed in DeWitt for years before the street blades switched to Old US 27. Most of the locals still preferred to use Old US 27 over the new US 127 freeway given it was too fast East of the core of DeWitt and DeWitt Township.
why use 127 over 27?
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 20, 2020, 10:07:55 PM
why use 127 over 27?
Because it would have required more states get involved with putting new signs up on US 127. US 27 was multiplexed with I-69 through much of Michigan which made it easier to get rid of.
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 20, 2020, 10:07:55 PM
why use 127 over 27?
If you were heading north on US 127 when you crossed I-69 the same freeway suddenly changed from US 127 to US 27. Then to the west and south of that interchange US 27 was multiplexed with I-69 to Fort Wayne. US 27 no longer had any real useful purpose in Michigan.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 20, 2020, 05:34:11 PM
The truncation of US 27 occurred a year after I got out of high school. If I recall correctly one of the big sticking points for MDOT pursuing truncating US 27 was completing the US 127 freeway bypass of DeWitt and St. John's. Once the bypass freeway was open US 27 made almost no sense in favor of US 127 north of Lansing. I recall US 27 was signed in DeWitt for years before the street blades switched to Old US 27. Most of the locals still preferred to use Old US 27 over the new US 127 freeway given it was too fast East of the core of DeWitt and DeWitt Township.
Right. Coming south out of St. Johns it's easier to just stay on Old 27 rather than go back to the freeway. You'll meet up with I-69 in DeWitt and there are a few roads that have exits with the freeway.
I'm pretty sure that they kept it 127 had something to do with the Ohio stretch they would have had to switch routes in Cincinnati. I remember this switch pretty good too. I still call it 27 lol.
I saw somewhere that at one point, MDOT wanted to truncate US-127 at its east junction of I-94 and reroute US-27 over M-60 between Coldwater and Jackson and taking over US-127 from Jackson to Lansing
Quote from: ftballfan on February 24, 2020, 11:04:30 AM
I saw somewhere that at one point, MDOT wanted to truncate US-127 at its east junction of I-94 and reroute US-27 over M-60 between Coldwater and Jackson and taking over US-127 from Jackson to Lansing
That's a pretty sound idea, it would have put a huge dent in what was that multiplex of I-69 and wouldn't require other states be involved.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 21, 2020, 03:25:53 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 20, 2020, 05:34:11 PM
The truncation of US 27 occurred a year after I got out of high school. If I recall correctly one of the big sticking points for MDOT pursuing truncating US 27 was completing the US 127 freeway bypass of DeWitt and St. John's. Once the bypass freeway was open US 27 made almost no sense in favor of US 127 north of Lansing. I recall US 27 was signed in DeWitt for years before the street blades switched to Old US 27. Most of the locals still preferred to use Old US 27 over the new US 127 freeway given it was too fast East of the core of DeWitt and DeWitt Township.
Right. Coming south out of St. Johns it's easier to just stay on Old 27 rather than go back to the freeway. You'll meet up with I-69 in DeWitt and there are a few roads that have exits with the freeway.
I'm pretty sure that they kept it 127 had something to do with the Ohio stretch they would have had to switch routes in Cincinnati. I remember this switch pretty good too. I still call it 27 lol.
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 21, 2020, 03:25:53 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 20, 2020, 05:34:11 PM
The truncation of US 27 occurred a year after I got out of high school. If I recall correctly one of the big sticking points for MDOT pursuing truncating US 27 was completing the US 127 freeway bypass of DeWitt and St. John's. Once the bypass freeway was open US 27 made almost no sense in favor of US 127 north of Lansing. I recall US 27 was signed in DeWitt for years before the street blades switched to Old US 27. Most of the locals still preferred to use Old US 27 over the new US 127 freeway given it was too fast East of the core of DeWitt and DeWitt Township.
Right. Coming south out of St. Johns it's easier to just stay on Old 27 rather than go back to the freeway. You'll meet up with I-69 in DeWitt and there are a few roads that have exits with the freeway.
I'm pretty sure that they kept it 127 had something to do with the Ohio stretch they would have had to switch routes in Cincinnati. I remember this switch pretty good too. I still call it 27 lol.
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
I am surprised to hear this. I assume US 127 would have replaced 27 north of Lansing, just like today. Interstate 69 was not completed in Michigan until 1992, so I assume US 27 around the non-completed segments southwest of Lansing would have just been signed TEMP 69.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2020, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 24, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2020, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
Makes sense, that's a really high capacity road for those counties to assume maintenance of. I'm kind of surprised it was never assigned a Trunkline Number that being the case.
Old 27 is considered a historic highway in Michigan. So yeah it makes sense that MDOT still maintains it.
Some of Old 27 is M-27, M-227 and of course I-69 and US-127. I think the whole thing is MDOT maintained. It should be a numbered state highway. It could be an extension of M-99 to US-127 north of St. Johns.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
Actually, MDOT owns all of Old US 27 from I-69 north to Bus. US 127 south of St. Johns. South of I-69, Old US 27 is also unsigned state trunkline all the way to the northern end of the Cedar & Larch one-way pair that's part of BL I-96. (That southern section is Old Bus. US 127, even though it was never part of US 127; it got its designation when Old Bus. US 27 was switched with the US 27 decommissioning.)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 08:44:11 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 24, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2020, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
Makes sense, that's a really high capacity road for those counties to assume maintenance of. I'm kind of surprised it was never assigned a Trunkline Number that being the case.
MDOT once considered renumbering Old US 27 along Lansing Road as a new M-442. That was around the same time they renumbered Old M-21 as M-121 in a bid to return unsigned highways to signed status.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2020, 10:10:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 08:44:11 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 24, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2020, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
Makes sense, that's a really high capacity road for those counties to assume maintenance of. I'm kind of surprised it was never assigned a Trunkline Number that being the case.
MDOT once considered renumbering Old US 27 along Lansing Road as a new M-442. That was around the same time they renumbered Old M-21 as M-121 in a bid to return unsigned highways to signed status.
Was the 442 a reference to Oldsmobile and it's presence in Lansing?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 25, 2020, 10:24:36 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2020, 10:10:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 08:44:11 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 24, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2020, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
Makes sense, that's a really high capacity road for those counties to assume maintenance of. I'm kind of surprised it was never assigned a Trunkline Number that being the case.
MDOT once considered renumbering Old US 27 along Lansing Road as a new M-442. That was around the same time they renumbered Old M-21 as M-121 in a bid to return unsigned highways to signed status.
Was the 442 a reference to Oldsmobile and it's presence in Lansing?
Ding ding ding!
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2020, 10:25:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 25, 2020, 10:24:36 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2020, 10:10:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 08:44:11 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 24, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2020, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
Makes sense, that's a really high capacity road for those counties to assume maintenance of. I'm kind of surprised it was never assigned a Trunkline Number that being the case.
MDOT once considered renumbering Old US 27 along Lansing Road as a new M-442. That was around the same time they renumbered Old M-21 as M-121 in a bid to return unsigned highways to signed status.
Was the 442 a reference to Oldsmobile and it's presence in Lansing?
Ding ding ding!
Too bad that didn't happen, we could some muscle car themed highways.
how many unsigned state highways does michigan have?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 25, 2020, 10:31:12 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2020, 10:25:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 25, 2020, 10:24:36 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2020, 10:10:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 08:44:11 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 24, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2020, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn’t MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
Makes sense, that’s a really high capacity road for those counties to assume maintenance of. I’m kind of surprised it was never assigned a Trunkline Number that being the case.
MDOT once considered renumbering Old US 27 along Lansing Road as a new M-442. That was around the same time they renumbered Old M-21 as M-121 in a bid to return unsigned highways to signed status.
Was the 442 a reference to Oldsmobile and it’s presence in Lansing?
Ding ding ding!
Too bad that didn’t happen, we could some muscle car themed highways.
Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing, and perhaps throw in an M-500 for Cadillac and their behemoth V8 engine that existed way back when. (Of course, that's not a muscle car company, but still...)
Quote from: Henry on February 26, 2020, 10:15:53 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 25, 2020, 10:31:12 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2020, 10:25:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 25, 2020, 10:24:36 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2020, 10:10:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 08:44:11 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 24, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2020, 11:49:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2020, 11:17:35 AM
If I recall correctly didn't MDOT relinquish much of Old US 27 once it was truncated? I want to say some of it was retained by MDOT as US 127 Business near St Johns? Either way Old US 27 north of Lansing was a pretty quality surface expressway for what it is.
A little bit of it. Business 127 turns east to go back to the freeway at Price Road. South of there I'm thinking it's now local control (Clinton County).
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
Makes sense, that's a really high capacity road for those counties to assume maintenance of. I'm kind of surprised it was never assigned a Trunkline Number that being the case.
MDOT once considered renumbering Old US 27 along Lansing Road as a new M-442. That was around the same time they renumbered Old M-21 as M-121 in a bid to return unsigned highways to signed status.
Was the 442 a reference to Oldsmobile and it's presence in Lansing?
Ding ding ding!
Too bad that didn't happen, we could some muscle car themed highways.
Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing, and perhaps throw in an M-500 for Cadillac and their behemoth V8 engine that existed way back when. (Of course, that's not a muscle car company, but still...)
With Lansing though I've always associated far more with Oldsmobile than Cadillac. 442 is about the only appropriate highway number unless you wanted wanted to sign the route as "Cutlass Supreme Memorial Highway" or something like that. Too bad M-88 is in use, that would be kind of funny given how much Delta 88s used to get ragged on.
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 24, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Actually, the old US-27 south of St. Johns to Grand River Ave. in Lansing is still under MDOT maintenance, as is old US-27 (Lansing Rd) SW of I-496 through Potterville and Charlotte to exit 57 of I-69 south of Charlotte.
The portion from I-69 Exits 61 to 70 was turned back to Eaton County back in 2008. (Chris Bessert for some reason erroneously lists the latter exit near the State Secondary Complex as 92.)
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 26, 2020, 08:04:55 AM
how many unsigned state highways does michigan have?
40-ish. See Chris Bessert's list: http://michiganhighways.org/other/unsigned.html
The answer is 44.
13 mainline highways, 30 special routes and 1 business route.