Toll Roads vs. Free Roads Poll and Discussion

[Brandon]

Oh yes I used the calculator and got $12 too, so I'm thinking it's glitched and was hoping someone would know.

Why do you think it's glitched? Expecting a higher toll? The whole 300+ mile road is only $25 (which is about half the toll per mile of Laredo-Mazatlan).

Really? I expected it to be like $95-110. Never used an American toll so I had no idea of the prices.

There is no way it is even close to being that expensive. I think to drive from Chicago to Philadelphia it is only about $35 total in tolls.

It's a bit more than that, but that's due to the very high tolls on the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

[US 41]

The Pennsylvania Turnpike is a toll road I always take. I don't try to find other alternatives to it. I could take I-80, but IMO it is pretty boring. Plus I-76 has 3 (maybe 4?) tunnels on it, and by taking the PA Turnpike I get to go through the tunnel in Wheeling, WV too. I-476 is another toll road I like, because of the Lehigh Tunnel.

[hbelkins]

IMO, the classic example on the East Coast is probably I-95 across North Carolina (we can talk about the Cross-Bronx Expressway later).  Much of that road needs to be reconstructed from the ground up and widened, along with many substandard and dangerous interchanges that need to be torn-out and rebuilt, along with several bridges that are too low. Tolling could easily fund all that, though some of the nice people living near the corridor (along with the elected officials that represent them) absolutely do not want tolls, nor do they want increased motor fuel taxes under any circumstances.  Go figure.

Locals are probably satisfied with the road as-is, as they probably don't care about the too-low bridges or other items you mention.

[cpzilliacus]

IMO, the classic example on the East Coast is probably I-95 across North Carolina (we can talk about the Cross-Bronx Expressway later).  Much of that road needs to be reconstructed from the ground up and widened, along with many substandard and dangerous interchanges that need to be torn-out and rebuilt, along with several bridges that are too low. Tolling could easily fund all that, though some of the nice people living near the corridor (along with the elected officials that represent them) absolutely do not want tolls, nor do they want increased motor fuel taxes under any circumstances.  Go figure.

Locals are probably satisfied with the road as-is, as they probably don't care about the too-low bridges or other items you mention.

I suppose I do not care all that much about what the locals think, though they do derive significant economic benefit from having I-95 nearby.

It is (above all) an interstate highway (lower-case "i" in that it serves an interstate travel market), and probably received 90% federal money to design, engineer and construct (though IIRC some sections in North Carolina were "recycled" from U.S. 301, as they were in Southside Virginia).  I have driven that section of I-95 quite a lot, and much of the truck traffic appears to be interstate, as is the four-wheeled traffic, which means that non-North Carolina drivers will pay a lot of the cost if tolls are imposed.

[The Nature Boy]

IMO, the classic example on the East Coast is probably I-95 across North Carolina (we can talk about the Cross-Bronx Expressway later).  Much of that road needs to be reconstructed from the ground up and widened, along with many substandard and dangerous interchanges that need to be torn-out and rebuilt, along with several bridges that are too low. Tolling could easily fund all that, though some of the nice people living near the corridor (along with the elected officials that represent them) absolutely do not want tolls, nor do they want increased motor fuel taxes under any circumstances.  Go figure.

Locals are probably satisfied with the road as-is, as they probably don't care about the too-low bridges or other items you mention.

I suppose I do not care all that much about what the locals think, though they do derive significant economic benefit from having I-95 nearby.

It is (above all) an interstate highway (lower-case "i" in that it serves an interstate travel market), and probably received 90% federal money to design, engineer and construct (though IIRC some sections in North Carolina were "recycled" from U.S. 301, as they were in Southside Virginia).  I have driven that section of I-95 quite a lot, and much of the truck traffic appears to be interstate, as is the four-wheeled traffic, which means that non-North Carolina drivers will pay a lot of the cost if tolls are imposed.

I-95 in NC would be the North Carolina Turnpike right now if it actually served a major city in the state. Voters in the state don't care that a 2-lane I-95 makes getting goods from NY to Miami a bit more difficult but they WOULD care if the current configuration disrupted commerce in NC.

One other major barrier is that I-95 passes through some of the poorest areas in the state. You're right that the traffic is largely interstate, but it does get heavy intrastate use as well. If you tolled I-95, you'd be asking people in Rocky Mount, Benson and Lumberton to pay tolls to travel within the state. Those are some of the poorest areas in the state. The largest NC city along I-95 is Fayetteville, hardly a major economic center.

If I had to route I-95 through NC, I would've had it go through Raleigh and then southeast through Fayetteville. You might see more of a push for improvements if it connected Raleigh to points north and south. 

[Darkchylde]

So, going 25-30 miles out of the way to shunpike a $3 toll. Yeah. If I'd shunpike that, then I'd definitely shunpike the Kansas Turnpike or a potentially-tolled I-70 in MO. I don't have the extra money to pay tolls. Simple as that.

How fuel efficient was your vehicle?  If gas is $3 a gallon, and you get about 50 mpg on your vehicle, you're still spending at least $1.50 to avoid a $3 toll.  If your mpg is less, you're spending more in gas.

At some point, the economics of the situation would say just pay the damn toll.

The Sentra got about 32mpg. I'd already have spent all I had filling the tank.

Don't misunderstand. I don't shunpike because I hate toll roads. I do it because I HAVE NO MONEY.

So if the toll is $3, and gas is $3, and you drove 30 miles to avoid a $3 toll, you just paid for it anyway with a gallon of gas.

If gas was closer to $4 a gallon, you paid *more* to avoid the toll.

I mean, ok, if you don't have $3 on you right then and there to pay the toll, you may not have a choice.  But to spend more in gas than it would be to pay the toll only costs you more in the long run!

That's typically the case. I fill the tank on the 1st of the month. That's also the only time I put gas in the car. I have to typically go a whole month on that tank. It's already spent. Now, if I'm driving a little later in the month than that, I'm broke, but still on most of a full tank. How much extra fuel I burn is completely irrelevant, because I have no liquid cash left.

[NE2]

Your next fillup is not already spent. Drive less this month and set aside the money saved.

Or don't fill the tank all the way at the beginning of the month, keeping some of the money for tolls.

[Perfxion]

I will go free when traffic is free. I will pay the toll if its near rush hour. But with Houston, if I am going to out of town, I rather pay the beltway or soon to be grand parkway tolls then to drive 30 extra miles to do it for free.

[Brandon]

Your next fillup is not already spent. Drive less this month and set aside the money saved.

Or don't fill the tank all the way at the beginning of the month, keeping some of the money for tolls.

Not always possible.  Some people work, and work rather far from where they live.

[vdeane]

If she can go a full month on a tank, I'm guessing that she's not living rather far away from where she works (or has some other means of getting there).

[cpzilliacus]

I-95 in NC would be the North Carolina Turnpike right now if it actually served a major city in the state. Voters in the state don't care that a 2-lane I-95 makes getting goods from NY to Miami a bit more difficult but they WOULD care if the current configuration disrupted commerce in NC.

I actually believe the opposite.  If it served those centers of North Carolina, there would be even more opposition to tolling I-95.   

One other major barrier is that I-95 passes through some of the poorest areas in the state. You're right that the traffic is largely interstate, but it does get heavy intrastate use as well. If you tolled I-95, you'd be asking people in Rocky Mount, Benson and Lumberton to pay tolls to travel within the state. Those are some of the poorest areas in the state. The largest NC city along I-95 is Fayetteville, hardly a major economic center.

I assume that you are correct about the relative prosperity of the places along I-95, though they would be even poorer if they did not have I-95 there.

If I had to route I-95 through NC, I would've had it go through Raleigh and then southeast through Fayetteville. You might see more of a push for improvements if it connected Raleigh to points north and south.

I have always found it curious that I-95 did not follow a course closer to U.S. 1 from Jacksonville, Florida through Raleigh, N.C. to Petersburg, Va.  Presumably for sound reasons (shorter distance being the one that comes to my mind), a routing much closer to U.S. 17; U.S. 15 and then U.S. 301 was chosen from Jacksonville to Petersburg. 

[The Nature Boy]

I-95 in NC would be the North Carolina Turnpike right now if it actually served a major city in the state. Voters in the state don't care that a 2-lane I-95 makes getting goods from NY to Miami a bit more difficult but they WOULD care if the current configuration disrupted commerce in NC.

I actually believe the opposite.  If it served those centers of North Carolina, there would be even more opposition to tolling I-95.   

One other major barrier is that I-95 passes through some of the poorest areas in the state. You're right that the traffic is largely interstate, but it does get heavy intrastate use as well. If you tolled I-95, you'd be asking people in Rocky Mount, Benson and Lumberton to pay tolls to travel within the state. Those are some of the poorest areas in the state. The largest NC city along I-95 is Fayetteville, hardly a major economic center.

I assume that you are correct about the relative prosperity of the places along I-95, though they would be even poorer if they did not have I-95 there.

If I had to route I-95 through NC, I would've had it go through Raleigh and then southeast through Fayetteville. You might see more of a push for improvements if it connected Raleigh to points north and south.

I have always found it curious that I-95 did not follow a course closer to U.S. 1 from Jacksonville, Florida through Raleigh, N.C. to Petersburg, Va.  Presumably for sound reasons (shorter distance being the one that comes to my mind), a routing much closer to U.S. 17; U.S. 15 and then U.S. 301 was chosen from Jacksonville to Petersburg.

I-95 has been kind of a double-edged sword for the poor rural places in North Carolina that it serves. Yes, it does bring increased traffic but that doesn't seem to be paying dividends in terms of higher paying jobs. It may have helped with manufacturing a while back, but that's a thing of the past. It DID however facilitate the drug trade and drugs are literally eating Lumberton and Rocky Mount alive. Lumberton in particular is a crime ridden cesspool that regularly shows up among the list of most dangerous places in NC. I-95 helped bring a widespread drug trade into these areas and that's been a net negative from a quality of life standpoint.

And if I-95 served the bigger cities, you'd see more of an outcry to widen it so traffic can flow more efficiently. It might be EASIER to sell tolls as an idea to fix that. At one point, NC and CT were the only states on the I-95 corridor without a toll road so there is a long standing opposition to the idea.

As for my feelings on toll roads, I'll take whatever is fastest or whatever I'm in the mood for. Sometimes when traveling from the Midwest to the Northeast, I'll shun the NY Thruway and take the Southern Tier Expressway because it's a more scenic drive.

[cpzilliacus]

I-95 has been kind of a double-edged sword for the poor rural places in North Carolina that it serves. Yes, it does bring increased traffic but that doesn't seem to be paying dividends in terms of higher paying jobs. It may have helped with manufacturing a while back, but that's a thing of the past.

Loss of manufacturing jobs are symptoms of failure at the highest levels of the government at the national level.   

It DID however facilitate the drug trade and drugs are literally eating Lumberton and Rocky Mount alive. Lumberton in particular is a crime ridden cesspool that regularly shows up among the list of most dangerous places in NC. I-95 helped bring a widespread drug trade into these areas and that's been a net negative from a quality of life standpoint.

Not just in North Carolina.  Ever heard of Baltimore, Maryland?  Prince George's County, Maryland (suburb of Washington, D.C.)?  Richmond, Virginia?

Drug-related crime can be traced to one root cause - efforts at social engineering that date back to the "Reefer Madness" movie (1936) (and earlier).  A particularly infamous politician that helped to set the stage for Nixon's War on Drugs starting in the 1970's hailed from North Carolina - Rep. Robert Lee "Muley Bob" Doughton (D), of Laurel Springs who helped to push the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 through Congress, effectively outlawing weed at the federal level.  And to make things clear, I hate marihuana (and the stoner "culture" that goes along with same) with a passion, but still believe it should be legal and taxable. 

Doughton was not all bad - he also helped to get construction of the Blue Ridge Parkway under way in the 1930's.

And if I-95 served the bigger cities, you'd see more of an outcry to widen it so traffic can flow more efficiently. It might be EASIER to sell tolls as an idea to fix that. At one point, NC and CT were the only states on the I-95 corridor without a toll road so there is a long standing opposition to the idea.

Though N.C. 540 (Tri-Ex) is not exactly a long toll road (and I do not know how it is doing in terms of toll-paying customers). I presume that the vast majority of North Carolina drivers have never been on it. 

As for my feelings on toll roads, I'll take whatever is fastest or whatever I'm in the mood for. Sometimes when traveling from the Midwest to the Northeast, I'll shun the NY Thruway and take the Southern Tier Expressway because it's a more scenic drive.

Not driven all that much of N.Y. 17, and none of the E-W (I-90) running section of the NYS Thruway (but most of the I-87 section).

[The Nature Boy]

I'm well aware of the crime in Baltimore, DC and Richmond. I never said that I-95 was completely bad, I just said that it introduced a new element of crime to these areas. When you have crime and no jobs, you have what is now rural eastern NC.  The no jobs part is the cause of the poverty that makes making I-95 a toll road politically unfeasible. You're right about one thing though, I-95's tolls would be largely paid by outsiders. To make it politically feasible, you'd have to give a HUGE discount to NC EZPass users and have high toll rates for outsiders to compensate for the hit you'd take by discounting it for in-state drivers.

[vdeane]

The big reason NC wants to toll I-95 is because it mostly serves out of state traffic.  If it was more major for intrastate traffic, they'd be looking at other funding means or talking about tolling something else.

[hotdogPi]

The big reason NC wants to toll I-95 is because it mostly serves out of state traffic.  If it was more major for intrastate traffic, they'd be looking at other funding means or talking about tolling something else.

Maybe only put tolls on the parts between cities, so that you can travel within the cities without having to pay.

[The Nature Boy]

The big reason NC wants to toll I-95 is because it mostly serves out of state traffic.  If it was more major for intrastate traffic, they'd be looking at other funding means or talking about tolling something else.

Of course, but the intrastate traffic that it serves just so happens to be the poorest in the state so the political will isn't there. I remember most of the media at the time that the proposal was active centered how unfair it'd be for the locals and how it would just clog the surface highways with traffic.

I'm in favor of tolling I-95, but it's a hard sell because of the demographics of the I-95 corridor in NC and the historic opposition to tolls.

[NE2]

Maybe only put tolls on the parts between cities, so that you can travel within the cities without having to pay.

Or put a toll on the I-95 bypass of Fayetteville (the Cape Fear River bridge looks like a good place). Most residents probably use the partly-freeway I-95 Biz through Fayetteville. Interstate drivers who choose to shunpike get to help the commercial area that I-95 Biz passes through.

[cpzilliacus]

I'm well aware of the crime in Baltimore, DC and Richmond. I never said that I-95 was completely bad, I just said that it introduced a new element of crime to these areas. When you have crime and no jobs, you have what is now rural eastern NC.

Though Smithfield does have a pig slaughtering operation in Tar Heel, N.C. [roughly south of Fayetteville and northeast of Lumberton], though I suppose the jobs killing and disassembling pigs do not pay especially well.

The no jobs part is the cause of the poverty that makes making I-95 a toll road politically unfeasible. You're right about one thing though, I-95's tolls would be largely paid by outsiders. To make it politically feasible, you'd have to give a HUGE discount to NC EZPass users and have high toll rates for outsiders to compensate for the hit you'd take by discounting it for in-state rivers.

As much as I agreed with the decision by USDOT and the Federal Highway Administration to (twice) reject Pennsylvania's proposal to toll all of I-80 across that state, the proposal did have one good idea - allowing four-wheel traffic with an E-ZPass transponder to pass through one of the transponder gantries without being charged a toll, effectively allowing (relatively) short trips to be made without paying any toll charges.  It seems to me that this would be a good idea for a tolled I-95.

[cpzilliacus]

Maybe only put tolls on the parts between cities, so that you can travel within the cities without having to pay.

Or put a toll on the I-95 bypass of Fayetteville (the Cape Fear River bridge looks like a good place). Most residents probably use the partly-freeway I-95 Biz through Fayetteville. Interstate drivers who choose to shunpike get to help the commercial area that I-95 Biz passes through.

I disagree.  Single-point tolling is in most cases easy enough to shunpike, which means a loss of revenue.  Since all-electronic tolling is relatively inexpensive to operate, better to toll the entire road, while perhaps giving  a break to short and relatively short trips.  Wonder what the trip length distribution is on I-95 in North Carolina?

[cpzilliacus]

The big reason NC wants to toll I-95 is because it mostly serves out of state traffic.  If it was more major for intrastate traffic, they'd be looking at other funding means or talking about tolling something else.

Of course, but the intrastate traffic that it serves just so happens to be the poorest in the state so the political will isn't there. I remember most of the media at the time that the proposal was active centered how unfair it'd be for the locals and how it would just clog the surface highways with traffic.

Should not be a big issue, IMO.

I'm in favor of tolling I-95, but it's a hard sell because of the demographics of the I-95 corridor in NC and the historic opposition to tolls.

I am in favor of tolling I-95 because it badly needs to be widened, and many of its interchanges need to be reconstructed. 

This is not the only freeway in the U.S. that needs same (I-70 across most of Missouri qualifies as does I-70 in southwestern Pennsylvania), and I am confident that members of this forum can easily identify others in need of total reconstruction.

[The Nature Boy]

The big reason NC wants to toll I-95 is because it mostly serves out of state traffic.  If it was more major for intrastate traffic, they'd be looking at other funding means or talking about tolling something else.

Of course, but the intrastate traffic that it serves just so happens to be the poorest in the state so the political will isn't there. I remember most of the media at the time that the proposal was active centered how unfair it'd be for the locals and how it would just clog the surface highways with traffic.

Should not be a big issue, IMO.

I'm in favor of tolling I-95, but it's a hard sell because of the demographics of the I-95 corridor in NC and the historic opposition to tolls.

I am in favor of tolling I-95 because it badly needs to be widened, and many of its interchanges need to be reconstructed. 

This is not the only freeway in the U.S. that needs same (I-70 across most of Missouri qualifies as does I-70 in southwestern Pennsylvania), and I am confident that members of this forum can easily identify others in need of total reconstruction.

The NC DOT is reconstructing the Exit 22 interchange in Lumberton. That one was a death trap before they addressed it so there's that at least. I'm not denying that I-95 in NC is a disaster zone. I'm just addressing the political reality of putting a toll on it.

[cpzilliacus]

The NC DOT is reconstructing the Exit 22 interchange in Lumberton. That one was a death trap before they addressed it so there's that at least.

I know that interchange quite well.  Have exited there many times for fuel (the Sam's Club nearby off of Dawn Drive in the southwest quadrant of the interchange sells Diesel fuel at reasonably low prices by North Carolina standards).

IMO, the biggest problem there is one that I-95 in North Carolina is notorious for - a low overpass.

I'm not denying that I-95 in NC is a disaster zone. I'm just addressing the political reality of putting a toll on it.

Barring large increases in motor fuel taxes at the state and federal levels, it will take NCDOT years to correct all of the problems with I-95 across their state.

The worst section of I-95 runs from Lumberton in the south (Exit 22 is as good of a place as any to mark the southern end of the bad section) to Kenly (Exit 107) in the north.  My least-favorite subset of that bad section is passing Smithfield, Selma and Micro, because of  the substandard interchanges and bridges.  Curiously, as Spui implied upthread, within that worst section, the Fayetteville Bypass section has a nice modern design (and could probably have a posted limit speed limit of 75 MPH).

[Darkchylde]

If she can go a full month on a tank, I'm guessing that she's not living rather far away from where she works (or has some other means of getting there).

Actually, I don't work. Disability only covers so much, especially since the prices of things are still sky-high aside from gas (at the moment.) Most of my commuting lately is to grocery stores to buy food or to doctors, thankfully, not involving a tolled route in any shape or form yet. Sometimes, though, I have to travel a little bit beyond that. Taking a toll road to get there would screw me badly.

Edit: Quoted wrong post

[The Nature Boy]

The NC DOT is reconstructing the Exit 22 interchange in Lumberton. That one was a death trap before they addressed it so there's that at least.

I know that interchange quite well.  Have exited there many times for fuel (the Sam's Club nearby off of Dawn Drive in the southwest quadrant of the interchange sells Diesel fuel at reasonably low prices by North Carolina standards).

IMO, the biggest problem there is one that I-95 in North Carolina is notorious for - a low overpass.

I'm not denying that I-95 in NC is a disaster zone. I'm just addressing the political reality of putting a toll on it.

Barring large increases in motor fuel taxes at the state and federal levels, it will take NCDOT years to correct all of the problems with I-95 across their state.

The worst section of I-95 runs from Lumberton in the south (Exit 22 is as good of a place as any to mark the southern end of the bad section) to Kenly (Exit 107) in the north.  My least-favorite subset of that bad section is passing Smithfield, Selma and Micro, because of  the substandard interchanges and bridges.  Curiously, as Spui implied upthread, within that worst section, the Fayetteville Bypass section has a nice modern design (and could probably have a posted limit speed limit of 75 MPH).

I agree that the NCDOT has a ton of work to do on I-95. The Fayetteville Bypass is probably the best stretch of it actually.

And I just saw the post about Smithfield in Tar Heel, I am Facebook friends with a high school classmate who worked there. She posted about getting food stamps so I'm assuming that the pay is abysmal. I have a friend who worked for a chicken slaughtering outfit in North Carolina and made minimum wage. The poverty rate in eastern NC is unreal.