New York

[roadman65]

Does the LIE have mileage signs along it? Back in 1988 my one and only time on it I remember only one East of the Queens- Nassau Border for Riverhead and nothing eastward.  Never been on it west except in Queens near former Shea Stadium and to the Midtown Tunnel and of course none I never saw there.

LIE has no big cities of interest along it may be why, but without mile based numbers on exits makes the 70 plus miles drive very long as no major reference points to note along its way does not help either.

Please, the LIE doesn't even have mileposts. Region 10 doesn't use them.

Wow that's interesting.  An interstate without mile posts. Hmmm.

Thought that was required?


Plus it wasn't an interstate to begin with east of the Clearview.  I would think they posted them to get interstate status.

[cl94]

Why does the LIE's exit sequence start at 13? It's not like there would have been 13 exits along the Mid-Manhattan Expressway had that route been built. I understand why the Southern State Parkway starts at Exit 13, since Exits 25 through 36 on the Cross Island Parkway were once numbered 1 though 12, increasing as one went south. The exits on the LIE probably should have been numbered 1-60 (or 3-63 if you include the two exits on the unbuilt MME). If the LIE exits were mileage-based, they would probably be numbered 1A-71.

Does this account for the NJ stretch of 495? The Staten Island Expwy starts at 3 because there are two exits on the NJ stretch before the Goethals. Maybe they were going to do something similar here?

The interesting thing is that NJ has never done sequential. Only the Turnpike has. (Okay, and the lettered exits in Atlantic City, but that's a bit different.) 495 would have gotten into the 2s in NJ, so exiting in NY would get you at most 3-4 on the west side of Manhattan. How do you get from 4 to 13?

Wasn't there a plan to extend 495 further west along 3 at one point? That would have given a few extra miles.

[roadman65]

Why does the LIE's exit sequence start at 13? It's not like there would have been 13 exits along the Mid-Manhattan Expressway had that route been built. I understand why the Southern State Parkway starts at Exit 13, since Exits 25 through 36 on the Cross Island Parkway were once numbered 1 though 12, increasing as one went south. The exits on the LIE probably should have been numbered 1-60 (or 3-63 if you include the two exits on the unbuilt MME). If the LIE exits were mileage-based, they would probably be numbered 1A-71.

Does this account for the NJ stretch of 495? The Staten Island Expwy starts at 3 because there are two exits on the NJ stretch before the Goethals. Maybe they were going to do something similar here?

The interesting thing is that NJ has never done sequential. Only the Turnpike has. (Okay, and the lettered exits in Atlantic City, but that's a bit different.) 495 would have gotten into the 2s in NJ, so exiting in NY would get you at most 3-4 on the west side of Manhattan. How do you get from 4 to 13?

Wasn't there a plan to extend 495 further west along 3 at one point? That would have given a few extra miles.

That was changed in favor of I-280.  They wanted NJ 3 full interstate, but costs too much.  Then I-280 got the honor of that connection west to I-80.

[Alps]

Why does the LIE's exit sequence start at 13? It's not like there would have been 13 exits along the Mid-Manhattan Expressway had that route been built. I understand why the Southern State Parkway starts at Exit 13, since Exits 25 through 36 on the Cross Island Parkway were once numbered 1 though 12, increasing as one went south. The exits on the LIE probably should have been numbered 1-60 (or 3-63 if you include the two exits on the unbuilt MME). If the LIE exits were mileage-based, they would probably be numbered 1A-71.

Does this account for the NJ stretch of 495? The Staten Island Expwy starts at 3 because there are two exits on the NJ stretch before the Goethals. Maybe they were going to do something similar here?

The interesting thing is that NJ has never done sequential. Only the Turnpike has. (Okay, and the lettered exits in Atlantic City, but that's a bit different.) 495 would have gotten into the 2s in NJ, so exiting in NY would get you at most 3-4 on the west side of Manhattan. How do you get from 4 to 13?

Wasn't there a plan to extend 495 further west along 3 at one point? That would have given a few extra miles.

That was changed in favor of I-280.  They wanted NJ 3 full interstate, but costs too much.  Then I-280 got the honor of that connection west to I-80.

I think this is the first time I've 100% agreed with something you posted

[SignBridge]

Can't (or shouldn't) be. As per the MUTCD, exit numbers start at the state line.

[hotdogPi]

Can't (or shouldn't) be. As per the MUTCD, exit numbers start at the state line.

It has an even first digit. Beltways can retain numbers when crossing state lines (although I-495 is not a beltway by any stretch of the imagination, but then, I-470 OH/WV is also a straight line and could reasonably have its numbers continue).

[dkblake]

Does the LIE have mileage signs along it? Back in 1988 my one and only time on it I remember only one East of the Queens- Nassau Border for Riverhead and nothing eastward.  Never been on it west except in Queens near former Shea Stadium and to the Midtown Tunnel and of course none I never saw there.

LIE has no big cities of interest along it may be why, but without mile based numbers on exits makes the 70 plus miles drive very long as no major reference points to note along its way does not help either.

Please, the LIE doesn't even have mileposts. Region 10 doesn't use them.

Wow that's interesting.  An interstate without mile posts. Hmmm.

Thought that was required?


Plus it wasn't an interstate to begin with east of the Clearview.  I would think they posted them to get interstate status.

It's been a while since I've driven on it, but I wonder if the LIE has the NYS green mile markers?

Also- the question of "does the LIE have big cities along it" is interesting because so much of LI's population is from unincorporated areas. If the towns of Nassau and western Suffolk incorporated- like, if they functioned like western cities rather than NY towns- they would be well within the top 100 cities by population (with the exception of Smithtown).

[cl94]

It's been a while since I've driven on it, but I wonder if the LIE has the NYS green mile markers?

Also- the question of "does the LIE have big cities along it" is interesting because so much of LI's population is from unincorporated areas. If the towns of Nassau and western Suffolk incorporated- like, if they functioned like western cities rather than NY towns- they would be well within the top 100 cities by population (with the exception of Smithtown).

The LIE has reference markers, yes. There are only a couple of state-maintained routes (if any) longer than 1/4 mile that lack them entirely.

And for the "unincorporated areas" thing...yeah. They're technically "incorporated" but incorporated as towns, not cities, and as such can have a lower level of government, which means they don't end up on the lists of "cities". Hempstead is larger than Seattle in terms of population and would be the third-largest city in the Northeast in terms of population if incorporated as a city instead of a town (behind NYC and Philadelphia).

[SignBridge]

The Town of Hempstead brags that it is "America's Largest Township".

[SignBridge]

Can't (or shouldn't) be. As per the MUTCD, exit numbers start at the state line.

It has an even first digit. Beltways can retain numbers when crossing state lines (although I-495 is not a beltway by any stretch of the imagination, but then, I-470 OH/WV is also a straight line and could reasonably have its numbers continue).

You are correct as per Sec. 2F.31.15. That applies to circumferentials, loops and spur routes. Thanks for pointing that out.

[roadman65]

I see that not only the LIE ( this is on AARoads and East Coast Roads BTW) that most of the LIE is built to suburban freeway likes in design than the Upstate interstates are.  For example the interchanges are densely spread like the Connecticut Turnpike has directly across the sound to the north.  Hardly any development of commercial nature that I have seen on it. Plus the sequential exit numbers go from 13-73 in 71 miles average out to one exit in less than 1.75 miles.   It is mainly through bedroom communities most likely spawned from the freeway itself post construction.

[empirestate]

And for the "unincorporated areas" thing...yeah. They're technically "incorporated" but incorporated as towns, not cities, and as such can have a lower level of government, which means they don't end up on the lists of "cities". Hempstead is larger than Seattle in terms of population and would be the third-largest city in the Northeast in terms of population if incorporated as a city instead of a town (behind NYC and Philadelphia).

It is mostly to do with how the census bureau, being the principal authority on populated places, regards them. They are "minor civil divisions"–i.e., subdivisions of counties–which by definition have some degree of legal status as bodies politic. In most cases this means there's a government in place, and in the case of NY's towns, they are quite strong governments, and they can be said to be incorporated insofar as they are municipal corporations with all the powers of same. But because the census distinguishes them from "freestanding" incorporated places–cities and villages–common parlance tends to reflect this.

In several cases, where there is a populous suburban town with no sufficiently distinct settlements within it, the census will create an unincorporated "place" coextensive with the town, so that it can stand alongside incorporated places and be compared to them statistically. But the towns on Long Island are peppered with individual named places that are unincorporated (to say nothing of the many incorporated villages inside the towns), and so it is those places that serve as the "cities" for comparative purposes.

So for the town of Hempstead, the populated places of record would be the villages (like Hempstead, Lynbrook, Rockville Centre) and the unincorporated communities (places like Baldwin and Oceanside). Also, as a practical matter, you can't really double-count the whole of Hempstead town if you're also counting the villages inside of it, so in this regard, the remainder of a NY town outside of its villages is more comparable to the unincorporated area of a western county than it is to incorporated places like cities.

The Town of Hempstead brags that it is "America's Largest Township".

To which, of course, I'm sure some place in Pennsylvania or elsewhere takes umbrage, seeing as how we ain't got them thar townships in this'yer state!

[kalvado]

And for the "unincorporated areas" thing...yeah. They're technically "incorporated" but incorporated as towns, not cities, and as such can have a lower level of government, which means they don't end up on the lists of "cities". Hempstead is larger than Seattle in terms of population and would be the third-largest city in the Northeast in terms of population if incorporated as a city instead of a town (behind NYC and Philadelphia).

It is mostly to do with how the census bureau, being the principal authority on populated places, regards them. They are "minor civil divisions"–i.e., subdivisions of counties–which by definition have some degree of legal status as bodies politic. In most cases this means there's a government in place, and in the case of NY's towns, they are quite strong governments, and they can be said to be incorporated insofar as they are municipal corporations with all the powers of same. But because the census distinguishes them from "freestanding" incorporated places–cities and villages–common parlance tends to reflect this.

In several cases, where there is a populous suburban town with no sufficiently distinct settlements within it, the census will create an unincorporated "place" coextensive with the town, so that it can stand alongside incorporated places and be compared to them statistically. But the towns on Long Island are peppered with individual named places that are unincorporated (to say nothing of the many incorporated villages inside the towns), and so it is those places that serve as the "cities" for comparative purposes.

So for the town of Hempstead, the populated places of record would be the villages (like Hempstead, Lynbrook, Rockville Centre) and the unincorporated communities (places like Baldwin and Oceanside). Also, as a practical matter, you can't really double-count the whole of Hempstead town if you're also counting the villages inside of it, so in this regard, the remainder of a NY town outside of its villages is more comparable to the unincorporated area of a western county than it is to incorporated places like cities.

The Town of Hempstead brags that it is "America's Largest Township".

To which, of course, I'm sure some place in Pennsylvania or elsewhere takes umbrage, seeing as how we ain't got them thar townships in this'yer state!

Not sure what is with unincorporated places, but as far as I know every square foot of NYS soil is a part of either a city, town, or indian reservation. There are some traditional names, some of which USPS keeps - my official home address is in a "postal town" which is a synonym to a zip code 12XXX and doesn't have any political significance. At the same time, we live in a "legal" town, which has a government that provides certain services like snow removal from public roads, manages building permits, has a court and an (unused) authority to levy taxes.  The postal town is split between a few legal towns, though, just to make it interesting. But the role of postal town is limited to address.

[paul02474]

"Unincorporated" in New York vernacular is used to describe areas in towns that are not part of an incorporated village.
As mentioned in a previous post, all territory in New York State outside of an Indian reservation is in a city or a town. Towns are subdivisions of counties, and provide basic services.
Incorporated villages may choose the services they provide. Some villages exist purely to enact their own zoning regulations. Others perform a full range of municipal services, including police, fire, and public works. Consequently, towns with incorporated villages within their boundaries are required to compute a town tax (for services provided to all residents in the town) and a part town tax (for services provided outside an incorporated village). For example, the tax to support the highway department is only levied on properties outside of an incorporated village that provides those services through a village tax.
Outside of cities, school districts are independent taxing authorities, and they are also independent of counties and towns. School districts can cross town and county lines. (Example: Cold Spring Harbor Central School District crosses the county line and includes part of the towns of Huntington (Suffolk County) and Oyster Bay (Nassau County).
To bring this back to the topic of roads and control cities, towns don't necessarily correspond to how folks (or the USPS) describe their communities. The Town of Oyster Bay is in eastern Nassau County, and stretches from the Long Island Sound to the Atlantic Ocean. Places like Syosset, Hicksville, and Massapequa are not incorporated as villages, receive all municipal services from the county or the Town of Oyster Bay, but aside from the sign at the town line, destination signs use the names of these unincorporated places. How do you know where Syosset ends and Hicksville begins? Ask the postal service, as they define the difference.
However, the postal service doesn't necessarily define the difference. Consider Northport 11768. It includes the Incorporated Village of Northport, but it includes portions of the Town of Huntington that describes itself as Northport but are outside the village. It includes the Incorporated Village of Asharoken, Eaton's Neck, and the area known as Fort Salonga that extends across the town line into Smithtown. Thus, you could be in an unincorporated portion of the Town of Smithtown, your mailing address is Northport 11768, and you are in the Kings Park fire and school district. Control city, anyone?

[roadman65]

The US postal service also considers all the neighborhoods of Queens to be towns unlike Brooklyn, Staten Island, and the Bronx which are cities themselves as New York, NY is only Manhattan in their world.

[sparker]

The US postal service also considers all the neighborhoods of Queens to be towns unlike Brooklyn, Staten Island, and the Bronx which are cities themselves as New York, NY is only Manhattan in their world.

A similar situation to Los Angeles locations; even though part of L.A. city jurisdiction, many of the outlying areas, most notably the San Fernando Valley, are postally identified by their own local names (North Hollywood, Van Nuys, Woodland Hills, etc.) and individual zip codes rather than as indistinguishable parts of L.A.  This also applies to other towns that were eventually annexed by L.A., such as San Pedro and Wilmington.   

[kalvado]

The US postal service also considers all the neighborhoods of Queens to be towns unlike Brooklyn, Staten Island, and the Bronx which are cities themselves as New York, NY is only Manhattan in their world.

A similar situation to Los Angeles locations; even though part of L.A. city jurisdiction, many of the outlying areas, most notably the San Fernando Valley, are postally identified by their own local names (North Hollywood, Van Nuys, Woodland Hills, etc.) and individual zip codes rather than as indistinguishable parts of L.A.  This also applies to other towns that were eventually annexed by L.A., such as San Pedro and Wilmington.   

Simplest reason I can think of is lack of USPS desire to deal with same street names after annexation. After all, USPS only has to ensure delivery, not to acknowledge political changes
On the other hand, I remember a few situations when addressing schemes was used for non-postal reasons. There was a big article how Minnesota worked with USPS to allow businesses in suburbs to use "Minneapolis MN" address - apparently, it adds weight to their offer (I am not sure why they they think so, though)

[SGwithADD]

So I was looking at GSV in Watertown, and came across something a bit weird about US 11's routing there. Coming north from the southern city limits, US 11 seems to be signed on the following route:

    Washington --> R on Public Square --> L on Mill --> merge with Leray

However, doing the route in reverse, US 11 is signed on:

    (starting from merge point with Mill) Leray --> becomes Massey --> slight L on Holcomb --> L on Paddock --> R on Washington

So you might be thinking "big deal - one way couplet", right? But no! Both legs are signed as N/S US 11, both with reassurance shields on the route (except for Mill St north of the Black River) and on intersecting state routes.  This leads to some weirdness where if you drive on NY 3 (Arsenal Street) eastbound, you see two fully separate intersections for US 11 North/South in under 1/2 mile.  Oddly, both sets of sign assemblies look newer, and the GSV images are both from September 2018.

The NYSDOT inventory log lists the first routing I listed (along Mill) as the official route of US 11.  While I haven't confirmed with reliable sources, it seems that US 11 may have originally been routed on Paddock, and then realigned at some point.  Unfortunately, nobody bothered fixing the southbound routing at the junction, and perhaps in-kind assembly replacements (or poor city maintenance) led to this mess.  Oddly, old GSV images seem to indicate that this dual US 11 signing has been around since at least 2008...

Anyone have any idea what's going on here??

[machias]

So I was looking at GSV in Watertown, and came across something a bit weird about US 11's routing there. Coming north from the southern city limits, US 11 seems to be signed on the following route:

    Washington --> R on Public Square --> L on Mill --> merge with Leray

However, doing the route in reverse, US 11 is signed on:

    (starting from merge point with Mill) Leray --> becomes Massey --> slight L on Holcomb --> L on Paddock --> R on Washington

So you might be thinking "big deal - one way couplet", right? But no! Both legs are signed as N/S US 11, both with reassurance shields on the route (except for Mill St north of the Black River) and on intersecting state routes.  This leads to some weirdness where if you drive on NY 3 (Arsenal Street) eastbound, you see two fully separate intersections for US 11 North/South in under 1/2 mile.  Oddly, both sets of sign assemblies look newer, and the GSV images are both from September 2018.

The NYSDOT inventory log lists the first routing I listed (along Mill) as the official route of US 11.  While I haven't confirmed with reliable sources, it seems that US 11 may have originally been routed on Paddock, and then realigned at some point.  Unfortunately, nobody bothered fixing the southbound routing at the junction, and perhaps in-kind assembly replacements (or poor city maintenance) led to this mess.  Oddly, old GSV images seem to indicate that this dual US 11 signing has been around since at least 2008...

Anyone have any idea what's going on here??

The multiple routings of US 11 have been in Watertown for at least 50 years. I noticed that as a kid when I was in elementary school. I'm wondering if it has something to do with Arsenal Street being one way eastbound between Massey and the Square up until the late 1990s.

[empirestate]

Not sure what is with unincorporated places, but as far as I know every square foot of NYS soil is a part of either a city, town, or indian reservation.

That's right–actually just city or town, as those entities exist inside of reservations as well. Town governments are non-functioning within the sovereign reservations, so the census doesn't recognize them there. But the city of Salamanca exists mostly within the Allegany Reservation.

[fmendes]

Well yes, there is still lots of weaving but at least it's a longer stretch of road, maybe a half-mile. Still better than what the old set-up would have been with today's traffic.

Yes 100% i agree with u but there is room for improvements not just at the wantagh but west all the way to eagle ave and maybe to the cross island as well but thats a whole other ball game

if they were gonna go to the cross island i think they would go with a HOV3+ lane and extend that to JFK airport on the belt parkway

[Michael]

Last night, I drove to Syracuse and back for the first time since February 7th.  I noticed that the signals here and here have been retrofitted with reflective backplates.  The second intersection now has a supplemental through signal head on the right far-side pole which was installed last year if I remember right.  The signal must also have been switched to leading left turns only since the "ONCOMING TRAFFIC MAY HAVE EXTENDED GREEN" signs (one of them is barely visible to the right of the left turn arrow) are now gone.  I first started seeing backplates a few years back (maybe 2016 based on looking around in Street View), but over the past year or two, backplates have been popping up on most if not all new installations.  Over the past month or two, the retroffiting of older installations has really picked up.

[TonyTrafficLight]

Lots of new blackplates here in Region 2 in the Utica/Rome area. Seen many new ones the past few weeks.
Mainly on single signals at intersections and nothing on the doghouses just yet.

[Roadgeek Adam]

R5 has gone backplate and FYA crazy. Taking time, but it's good that they are finally  doing this.

[baugh17]

Lots of new blackplates here in Region 2 in the Utica/Rome area. Seen many new ones the past few weeks.
Mainly on single signals at intersections and nothing on the doghouses just yet.

The only place I've *REALLY* seen the new backplates in my travels, aside from downtown Utica where NY 5S was rebuilt, is along Commercial Dr. (NY 5A) in New Hartford.  I haven't seen any new ones in Herkimer County...yet.

R5 has gone backplate and FYA crazy. Taking time, but it's good that they are finally  doing this.

Not sure about R5 though I have seen at least one instance there, but it seems that more and more new FYA installs around here are of the three section variety (RA-YA-Bimodal FYA/GA).