Cuomo Signs

[Rothman]

With all this talk about how the Trump administration cannot withhold federal funding from sanctuary cities that defy federal law and edicts on immigration, how could this threat from the feds hold up?

Because not all federal funds are created equal.  By law, USDOT divvies out federal funds for transportation to the states through FHWA.  The Secretary of Transportation maintains full control of the apportionments and obligation limitation.  I don't know how it is with sanctuary cities, but FHWA does have full control over how much in federal transportation funds go to which state.  They are fully within their rights to either lower the amount available to NY, or, possibly in the case of the Taste of NY rest area facilities, deem certain roads ineligible for federal funding.

[kalvado]

Not exactly signs - but looks like FHWA is OK with "Taste NY" establishments on I-81 if they go to self-service checkouts - IF there will be new ones...

[GenExpwy]

Price tag for Cuomo Signs jumps from $1.8M to $8.1M

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2017/02/15/love-ny-signs-cost/97950936/

ALBANY - New York paid about $8.1 million to print and install "I Love NY" highway signs across the state, despite being warned they violate federal law.

The state Department of Transportation and Thruway Authority spent about $3.6 million for materials and $4.5 million to install the large, blue signs, which now dot roadways across the state and are at the center of an ongoing feud with the federal government.

The cost was significantly more than the DOT said in November, when it estimated the state spent $1.76 million on materials.

[machias]

Price tag for Cuomo Signs jumps from $1.8M to $8.1M

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2017/02/15/love-ny-signs-cost/97950936/

ALBANY - New York paid about $8.1 million to print and install "I Love NY" highway signs across the state, despite being warned they violate federal law.

The state Department of Transportation and Thruway Authority spent about $3.6 million for materials and $4.5 million to install the large, blue signs, which now dot roadways across the state and are at the center of an ongoing feud with the federal government.

The cost was significantly more than the DOT said in November, when it estimated the state spent $1.76 million on materials.

I wonder if that includes the additional labor the Thruway shelled out to keep relocating the signs in some locations.

[kalvado]

Price tag for Cuomo Signs jumps from $1.8M to $8.1M

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2017/02/15/love-ny-signs-cost/97950936/

ALBANY - New York paid about $8.1 million to print and install "I Love NY" highway signs across the state, despite being warned they violate federal law.

The state Department of Transportation and Thruway Authority spent about $3.6 million for materials and $4.5 million to install the large, blue signs, which now dot roadways across the state and are at the center of an ongoing feud with the federal government.

The cost was significantly more than the DOT said in November, when it estimated the state spent $1.76 million on materials.

$7k in materials and $9k installation cost per sign. Is that normal, or on the higher end of spectrum?

[vdeane]

http://news10.com/2017/02/14/ny-tourism-signs-to-be-removed-after-feds-say-theyre-illegal/

[machias]

These signs would have bothered me regardless, but they really began to bother me when they scrapped the original "motherboard" signs and installed new ones because the original signs were the wrong shade of blue, then they started taking down pertinent motorist signs to not distract from the Cuomo signs, then they started relocating the signs because some of them weren't in the "ideal" location and many of the signs were installed on the Thruway during weekend overnight hours in late August. Portable lights, many workers, lane closures, all at 11:00 PM on a Saturday to install these things. I know for a fact that the Thruway Authority was resisting this but Cuomo was resilient, especially in the Syracuse area, because he wanted them up for the State Fair. The foundations weren't given enough time to cure and they're already cracking. How much money is going to be spent to maintain these things?

[Alps]

http://news10.com/2017/02/14/ny-tourism-signs-to-be-removed-after-feds-say-theyre-illegal/

Misleading headline, non-story.

[roadman]

$7k in materials and $9k installation cost per sign. Is that normal, or on the higher end of spectrum?

I don't have exact dimensions of the signs handy.  But for the sake of argument, let's say the signs are similar to 6 panel LOGO service signs in other states, which are typically 18 feet wide by 13 feet high, or 234 square feet.  $7K divided by 234 square feet is just under $30 a square foot.  While this price is not totally unreasonable for a handful of signs, it is clearly the high end in this case, where you've got such a large number of Cuomo signs that have been installed.

Now let's consider the support posts.  Unless NY State has adopted some outrageously high design wind speed for ground-mounted posts##, $9K to furnish and install a pair of W flange posts and foundations appears to be beyond the high end of the price spectrum.  Posts and foundations for similar sized signs on MA projects will run between $2,800 to $4,000 per installation.

##  Most states (MA and NH among them) only require use of current AASHTO design wind speed for overhead sign structures, and still allow a 75 or 90 mph design wind speed for ground-mounted sign posts.  The rationale is that, if wind takes down a ground-mounted sign, it will only fall over and not pose a hazard to traffic.  As such, the additional design and fabrication cost for the larger posts required to support (pardon the pun) a design wind speed of 110 or 130 mph is not justified.

[Sam]

I'm going to guess they're not designed for 110 or 130 mph: the signs along the Thruway east of Victor are all bent back at an angle or lying on the ground after the 70-80 mph winds yesterday.

[vdeane]

I read articles that said the signs were so rushed that the concrete anchoring the sign posts didn't even have time to properly cure.  This is probably the result of that.

[Michael]

I saw this on my Facebook News Feed earlier today: Local Assemblyman wants to halt repairs to "I Love NY"  signs

I find it funny that Cuomo signs show up when you go to Google Images and search for "illegal highway sign".

As an aside, why is this topic a sticky?

[steviep24]

Many BGS and other signs were damaged in that storm as well, shouldn't those get priority? The Cuomo signs are a waste of money anyway.

[roadman]

I read articles that said the signs were so rushed that the concrete anchoring the sign posts didn't even have time to properly cure.  This is probably the result of that.

If the stub posts and slip bases on the fallen posts are intact, AND the foundations are dislodged, that could be the cause.  In my experience, however, the typical failure of ground-mounted BGS signs in severe snow/wind events is either due to one or both posts separating from the slip base, or from the sign flopping over when the top hinges fail.  Does anyone out here have actual photos of the damaged posts/foundations so we can verify this.

[Sam]

I read articles that said the signs were so rushed that the concrete anchoring the sign posts didn't even have time to properly cure.  This is probably the result of that.

If the stub posts and slip bases on the fallen posts are intact, that could be the cause.  In my experience, however, the typical failure of ground-mounted BGS signs in severe snow/wind events is either due to one or both posts separating from the slip base, or from the sign flopping over when the top hinges fail.  Does anyone out here have actual photos of the damaged posts/foundations so we can verify this.

Haven't been able to get photos while driving the Thruway but my best description would be the post in the ground and the post on the sign back are fine, but what looks like a shear pin connecting them has bent. I obviously don't have the right terminology either.

[roadman]

I read articles that said the signs were so rushed that the concrete anchoring the sign posts didn't even have time to properly cure.  This is probably the result of that.

If the stub posts and slip bases on the fallen posts are intact, AND the foundations are dislodged, that could be the cause.  In my experience, however, the typical failure of ground-mounted BGS signs in severe snow/wind events is either due to one or both posts separating from the slip base, or from the sign flopping over when the top hinges fail.  Does anyone out here have actual photos of the damaged posts/foundations so we can verify this.

Haven't been able to get photos while driving the Thruway but my best description would be the post in the ground and the post on the sign back are fine, but what looks like a shear pin connecting them has bent. I obviously don't have the right terminology either.

If the stubs (part of post in the foundation) and the foundations are not dislodged or damaged at all, then the bad concrete theory is a red herring.  Sounds to me like the lower breakaway couplings/slip bases on the sign posts sheared.  This shouldn't, and normally doesn't, happen unless a vehicle directly hits the post.  Even for a 75 mph wind design, it takes a significantly higher wind force to cause that to happen on its own.  Although equally rare, I've seen such separation occur as the result of snow drifts from passing plows impacting the post bases.

[Sam]

(OK, lets see if I've got the link right...)


GSV shows the signs east of Victor westbound. Just below the sign are two "collars" with a short section in between. That short section is what bent in the wind, causing some of the signs to lean back. The posts in the ground are still straight and plumb.

The signs that fell seemed to break away just above ground.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Governor+Thomas+E.+Dewey+Thruway,+Victor,+NY+14564/@42.9968635,-77.3891143,3a,12.7y,19.5h,87.39t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s9mJqvR1lej-Ds5KNqsOKfw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89d131e7f8639789:0xb2c5a3ea94d1e104


iPhone Pro

[roadman]

(OK, lets see if I've got the link right...)


GSV shows the signs east of Victor westbound. Just below the sign are two "collars" with a short section in between. That short section is what bent in the wind, causing some of the signs to lean back. The posts in the ground are still straight and plumb.

The signs that fell seemed to break away just above ground.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Governor+Thomas+E.+Dewey+Thruway,+Victor,+NY+14564/@42.9968635,-77.3891143,3a,12.7y,19.5h,87.39t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s9mJqvR1lej-Ds5KNqsOKfw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89d131e7f8639789:0xb2c5a3ea94d1e104


iPhone Pro

Thanks for the link.  The short sections in the photo are called hinge points, which are intended to allow the posts to break away when struck by a vehicle.  However, I've never seen a hinge point design like these before, and they look extremely flimsy compared to more typical designs.  Failure of these hinge points in excessive wind has nothing to do with the foundations or the concrete.

[Sam]

[SignBridge]

Looks like the heavy wind just caused the thin supports to bend........

[steviep24]

Feds: NY state could lose $14M in funding over highway signs

http://13wham.com/news/state/feds-ny-state-could-lose-14m-in-funding-over-highway-signs-02-01-2018

Also, the FHWA sent a letter to  NYSDOT to remove the signs by September 30th.

https://www.scribd.com/document/370530666/Letter-to-NYSDOT-and-NYSTA-From-Acting-FHWA-Administrator-Hendrickson

[Rothman]

The Federal Housing Administration sent a letter to NYSDOT?

See my post in the NY thread.  Although this is certainly bad press, the effect is laughably minimal, in my opinion.

[steviep24]

The Federal Housing Administration sent a letter to NYSDOT?

See my post in the NY thread.  Although this is certainly bad press, the effect is laughably minimal, in my opinion.

I fixed it.   

[kalvado]

And the saga continues:
https://dailygazette.com/article/2018/02/02/controversial-tourism-signs-will-come-down

so the signs will be removed in favor of signs promoting a new "NY has it all!" tourism campaign.

Do I read it correct - existing signs will be removed, as requested by FHWA - but a different set of signs will be posted instead?

[02 Park Ave]

I'm glad that this will include those on the Thruway.