The last few weeks we all have been having fun foiling an obsessive troll on here by poking fun at his lunatic ideas and non productive posts. The guy insists his fictional and spacey ideas are very warranted, and we all give in.
Is this what we should be doing? Feeding a hungry troll? After all his one reason is obvious for being here: He wants attention. Should we give him that?
Or should we ignore him? I'm beginning to think that maybe we're just having way too much fun as we go along, and not realizing that we are turning him into a super troll instead.
Honestly I'm just waiting for him to say something even stupider and get himself banned. It's gotta come eventually, he's said way too many things to not eventually mess up. Until then I'm just along for the ride. Though I would like the child abuse conversation curtailed, as that is actually upseting and not something I enjoy seeing on the forum.
Generally, I agree-if you feed the trolls, they will multiply.
That said, when it's a topic that can be discussed in good faith, I prefer trying to engage on the topic and avoid ad hominems, etc. Otherwise, we can become those about whom we complain.
Quote from: zzcarp on March 08, 2023, 03:44:56 PM
Generally, I agree-if you feed the trolls, they will multiply.
That said, when it's a topic that can be discussed in good faith, I prefer trying to engage on the topic and avoid ad hominems, etc. Otherwise, we can become those about whom we complain.
Yeah, I like to engage with MMM like I do with anyone else. He doesn't make it easy however.
If the troll's name is Schrodinger, then countertrolling is the answer and also not the answer.
I don't think he's trolling.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 08, 2023, 03:51:18 PM
I don't think he's trolling.
And that terrifies me.
Lately, I feel like I'm in the last 10-15 minutes of Blazing Saddles on this forum.
Quote from: formulanone on March 08, 2023, 04:01:29 PM
Lately, I feel like I'm in the last 10-15 minutes of Blazing Saddles on this forum.
The great pie fight?
https://youtu.be/_AOeSrLCD-U
If I can be free to comment... there is undeniably a trolling aspect to MMM's behavior. Even if he's not a pure troll in the traditional sense, most of his posts (and behaviors, such as post deletion) are intentionally inciting debate. That said, I don't necessarily believe he should be banned. Most of his content is pretty harmless when compared to past problem users.
Quote from: webny99 on March 08, 2023, 06:16:52 PM
If I can be free to comment... there is undeniably a trolling aspect to MMM's behavior. Even if he's not a pure troll in the traditional sense, most of his posts (and behaviors, such as post deletion) are intentionally inciting debate.
Agreed.
QuoteThat said, I don't necessarily believe he should be banned. Most of his content is pretty harmless when compared to past problem users.
The biggest issue is the attention that's drawn to his posts, and away from the purpose of the forums. The amount of off-topic posts in the past few months have been through the roof compared to road-related stuff.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2023, 06:33:55 PMThe amount of off-topic posts in the past few months have been through the roof compared to road-related stuff.
From December 5, 2022 to today, my overall on-topic percentage (General Highway Talk, Traffic Control, and Northeast out of the top ten) has dropped from 48% to 46%. And that's with almost ten years of posting history.
Of my last 100 posts, 11 are considered to be on-topic. Of my last 75,
three. And I thought I was making a conscious effort to increase my on-topic percentage.
If not trolling, he is definitely a destructive presence on the forum otherwise. The threads he has ruined are many.
If he slips up and says "US federal route" then we'll know it's Carl Rogers who's moved to the east coast. :-D
We had an organized effort on MTR called "Operation Silence The Troll" wherein we ignored Calrog's posts.
Perhaps if everyone stops responding to him, he'll get the message.
This gives me an idea for the "Minor things that bother you" thread.
With the exception of the hotels thread recently, at least MMM doesn't come into other threads without reading an ounce of context to destroy them like a bull in a China shop. That's the behavior that irks me more than anything else that's been going on recently.
Quote from: 1 on March 08, 2023, 06:40:17 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2023, 06:33:55 PMThe amount of off-topic posts in the past few months have been through the roof compared to road-related stuff.
From December 5, 2022 to today, my overall on-topic percentage (General Highway Talk, Traffic Control, and Northeast out of the top ten) has dropped from 48% to 46%. And that's with almost ten years of posting history.
Of my last 100 posts, 11 are considered to be on-topic. Of my last 75, three.
Likewise, Off-Topic recently surpassed General Highway Talk as my most-posted in board for the first time ever.
I will confess it happened fast and took me by surprise, but fortunately I've flipped it back by avoiding the now-locked MMM thread and
attempting to revive General Highway Talk (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33025.0).
I honestly don't think that the increase in off topic posts is a problem. Off topic boards have many useful conversations. It's just MMM that's the problem. And I feel like Travel is sort of a borderline on topic board.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 08, 2023, 06:54:50 PM
I honestly don't think that the increase in off topic posts is a problem. Off topic boards have many useful conversations. It's just MMM that's the problem. And I feel like Travel is sort of a borderline on topic board.
I'm not saying off topic boards are a problem. There's a large number of enjoyable conversations there. I'm saying that the posts feeding the troll mainly pertaining to off topic topics, and those threads garner a lot of posts.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 08, 2023, 06:54:50 PM
I honestly don't think that the increase in off topic posts is a problem. Off topic boards have many useful conversations. It's just MMM that's the problem. And I feel like Travel is sort of a borderline on topic board.
Nearly half of my 1900 posts are in the Travel board as it is and that doesn't seem to be a problem.
The volume of posts is a big part of the problem, especially since the MMM arguments are too interesting to ignore but not nearly interesting enough to feel like they're worth the sheer amount of time they take to read each day. Plus the discussion unproductively goes back and forth so much, it feels like the same stuff could be said is 10% of the amount posted. Plus they clog up enough space on the "recent posts" spot that it becomes useless after more than five minutes in the times MMM is posting.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on March 08, 2023, 03:49:05 PM
If the troll's name is Schrodinger, then countertrolling is the answer and also not the answer.
Fun (but little known) fact: Alan Erwin Schrödinger's discoveries in physics were informed by his childhood summers at the family cottage on the shore of Lake Unerie. His family fled to Austria to flee the horrors of the Caterpillar War. He later dropped "Alan" from his name and claimed to be native to Vienna.
Quote from: vdeane on March 08, 2023, 08:26:51 PM
The volume of posts is a big part of the problem, especially since the MMM arguments are too interesting to ignore but not nearly interesting enough to feel like they're worth the sheer amount of time they take to read each day. Plus the discussion unproductively goes back and forth so much, it feels like the same stuff could be said is 10% of the amount posted. Plus they clog up enough space on the "recent posts" spot that it becomes useless after more than five minutes in the times MMM is posting.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on March 08, 2023, 03:49:05 PM
If the troll's name is Schrodinger, then countertrolling is the answer and also not the answer.
Fun (but little known) fact: Alan Erwin Schrödinger's discoveries in physics were informed by his childhood summers at the family cottage on the shore of Lake Unerie. His family fled to Austria to flee the horrors of the Caterpillar War. He later dropped "Alan" from his name and claimed to be native to Vienna.
Yes! That's the thing about MMM. His posts have substance in them, it's not like a total joke, and you want to read them, but they just go on and on without anything changing! Like at least the others trolls posted less so there was more breathing room! I never use the recent posts feature anyway so I don't care about that. I've said it before it's so exausting keeping up with them. He occasionally has some good points, but he goes way overboard. And I don't think that he has ever changed his mind about anything.
We have differing definitions of "substance."
The number of threads I ignore on a daily basis has exploded because of his replies and then the replies to his replies. He's damaging the overall quality of the forum.
Quote from: Rothman on March 08, 2023, 09:57:04 PM
We have differing definitions of "substance."
The number of threads I ignore on a daily basis has exploded because of his replies and then the replies to his replies. He's damaging the overall quality of the forum.
Didn't say it was good substance
Quote from: hbelkins on March 08, 2023, 06:42:12 PM
If he slips up and says "US federal route" then we'll know it's Carl Rogers who's moved to the east coast. :-D
We had an organized effort on MTR called "Operation Silence The Troll" wherein we ignored Calrog's posts.
Perhaps if everyone stops responding to him, he'll get the message.
This gives me an idea for the "Minor things that bother you" thread.
I agree... unfortunately there are a few specific users here who insist on continuously "egging on" the troll by replying to everything, instead of simply ignoring it and letting it die. It's why this forum is full of the spam. It is not just the troll that is the problem, it's equally as much those who push it, IMO. And it might explain the very high post count as well of some of these users...
We collectively should ignore the "troll" and let it die, but it's impossible when just one person wants to keep pushing it to never end, when everyone else wants it done.
I've noticed a trend over the years where someone comes along and engages in similar behavior to MMM. Every time said person gets the axe they are quickly replaced by someone else who the same thing anew.
I haven't quite come to my own conclusion if this is just something endemic to the road community. I occasionally see like behavior in other road groups but it is often swept away fairly quickly due to social media platforms usually having more authoritarian moderation. In the groups I manage/admin someone who acts as MMM does probably wouldn't make it a week on average.
Personally I'm not a fan of ignoring stuff and hoping it goes away. My observation is that said tact just encourages the problem people to fester. Crash_It is probably the most recent and extreme example of someone where ignoring them didn't work.
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
I tend to agree with sprjus4. I've realized that interacting with someone who is a troll or is acting like one is fruitless. I also try to avoid "controversial" threads (Fritzowl thread, MMM threads, Illinois is ___ threads, etc.) so that they don't clutter my unread replies and also because there's no real reason to post in them. I suggest that others do the same.
I do realize that I have engaged in posting in the past that has egged on a troll or needlessly complicated a controversial topic where it was not needed. I apologize if anyone ever was annoyed by that behavior.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
Ban personal soapboxes like that one. Nobody should be allowed to create a thread that's just about them rambling. Wouldn't solve the problem but would help.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
"Try to stick to the main topic as much as possible and don't put words in others mouths?" I really want to solve the problem that's making fictional highways less fun to post in, too...
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 01:16:07 AM
Ban personal soapboxes like that one. Nobody should be allowed to create a thread that's just about them rambling. Wouldn't solve the problem but would help.
How do you define "personal soapbox" in a way that doesn't ban the entire "Minor things that bother you" thread?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 03:23:32 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 01:16:07 AMBan personal soapboxes like that one. Nobody should be allowed to create a thread that's just about them rambling. Wouldn't solve the problem but would help.
How do you define "personal soapbox" in a way that doesn't ban the entire "Minor things that bother you" thread?
"Minor things that bother you" is essentially a round-robin based on the principle of sharing. You talk about your garage door, I talk about my mojibake problem, Zloth talks about whatever is going on with LastPass, and so it goes.
Containment threads have the disadvantage of potentially becoming attractive nuisances, and this seems to have happened with MMM's two to a much greater degree than was ever the case with FritzOwl, for example.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
In cases where an annoying poster maintains surface compliance with the rules, deciding whether to act and what action to take is inevitably a judgment call to some degree, which is where Jake's approach--the complete opposite of mother-may-I--comes in handy. One way to finesse this issue may be for a moderator to make a determination that someone is posting excessively--just the fact that MMM threads routinely overspill the "Recent Posts" box points to this happening--and subject that poster to a lower daily posting limit (say just five a day) than is otherwise provided for in the rules. The poster would then have the opportunity to bail out of the restriction by demonstrating that he or she has useful things to say within that limited posting window.
This system would need some checks and balances to ensure it is fairly applied and doesn't become a vehicle for personal animus. One such check might be to require buy-in from another moderator who hasn't previously had to act against the poster in question.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
That's why I've mentioned WP:CIR and WP:NOTHERE twice before. Do the rules actually need to be objective? Wikipedia works just fine with general guidelines (and a rule saying that intentionally trying to game the system isn't allowed).
As for something that satisfies all four criteria, "can be banned by 2/3 community vote" works.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:25:08 AM
I've noticed a trend over the years where someone comes along and engages in similar behavior to MMM. Every time said person gets the axe they are quickly replaced by someone else who the same thing anew.
I haven't quite come to my own conclusion if this is just something endemic to the road community. I occasionally see like behavior in other road groups but it is often swept away fairly quickly due to social media platforms usually having more authoritarian moderation. In the groups I manage/admin someone who acts as MMM does probably wouldn't make it a week on average.
Personally I'm not a fan of ignoring stuff and hoping it goes away. My observation is that said tact just encourages the problem people to fester. Crash_It is probably the most recent and extreme example of someone where ignoring them didn't work.
From what I saw, your particular engagement with Crash_It filled the forum with your debates. He was never fully ignored.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 03:23:32 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 01:16:07 AM
Ban personal soapboxes like that one. Nobody should be allowed to create a thread that's just about them rambling. Wouldn't solve the problem but would help.
How do you define "personal soapbox" in a way that doesn't ban the entire "Minor things that bother you" thread?
I am all for those threads like Fritzowl in a thread or MMM in a thread. I'd rather only have one to skip rather than twenty.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
You, as a moderator, have 3 choices here:
1. Exercise your judgement (aka brute force), hit "ban" and endure consequences (not too bad)
2. Keep procrastinating over the thing
3. Seat back and enjoy the show.
From my moderating experiences elsewhere, 2 is the least productive. I usually settle with 3, staying away as much as I can and push against any escalations from either side. Using 1 too much leads to internal tensions within the group...
Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2023, 07:07:37 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
You, as a moderator, have 3 choices here:
1. Exercise your judgement (aka brute force), hit "ban" and endure consequences (not too bad)
2. Keep procrastinating over the thing
3. Seat back and enjoy the show.
All of us, as the group of forum users, have a fourth option: Ignore it and don't respond at all. I've mentioned that before. Stop picking at a wound and it will soon go away.
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 06:56:47 AM
I am all for those threads like Fritzowl in a thread or MMM in a thread. I'd rather only have one to skip rather than twenty.
If there's a middle ground, which I concede would be fair to a troll, I agree it's this. (For the record, these are two threads I always skip.)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 09, 2023, 07:22:02 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2023, 07:07:37 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
You, as a moderator, have 3 choices here:
1. Exercise your judgement (aka brute force), hit "ban" and endure consequences (not too bad)
2. Keep procrastinating over the thing
3. Seat back and enjoy the show.
All of us, as the group of forum users, have a fourth option: Ignore it and don't respond at all. I've mentioned that before. Stop picking at a wound and it will soon go away.
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2023, 06:56:47 AM
I am all for those threads like Fritzowl in a thread or MMM in a thread. I'd rather only have one to skip rather than twenty.
If there's a middle ground, which I concede would be fair to a troll, I agree it's this. (For the record, these are two threads I always skip.)
Unrealistic , especially given educated troll. Another unrealistic ones are to oversmart or overtroll.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
The root problem is that there isn't any way I know of to write a fair, airtight rule that says "Don't be annoying". I can call "annoying" when I see it, but if I were to enforce it, I'm going to have to explain to the user exactly how they violated the rule. If it's too unclear or subjective, there's no way I can explain it in a way that won't lead to a pointless circular conversation I don't particularly have time to engage in. I suppose we could assert plenary powers and just ban people by edict the way Jake used to do when he was head admin, but I'm not really comfortable doing that. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that.
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
"Don't be annoying" is too vague anyway. I'm sure we've all met people who don't think they're being annoying, or who think that something they're doing is perfectly acceptable, but who simply annoy everyone else regardless of intent. I knew a guy in high school who was like that, so much so that years later when I saw the South Park movie and heard Saddam Hussein's character sing the line, "It's not because I'm evil–I just fuck up, try as I might," I thought of the guy I knew in high school. In his case it was just a lack of common sense. I'll never forget the time he was driving and trying to get this girl's attention, so he bumped her car twice with his car when they were stopped at a red light.
Then you have the case of certain forum members who believe that if something is true (in their minds) it must be acceptable to say, and cannot be annoying, because it is true.
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2023, 06:50:01 AM
That's why I've mentioned WP:CIR and WP:NOTHERE twice before. Do the rules actually need to be objective? Wikipedia works just fine with general guidelines (and a rule saying that intentionally trying to game the system isn't allowed).
As for something that satisfies all four criteria, "can be banned by 2/3 community vote" works.
Of course, the problem with the Wikipedia model of governance is, because all of the management decisions are out there for all the world to see, there is no end of drama and in-fighting. That's an acceptable sideshow when there's an end product that everyone is working on, but here, there is no real end product other than hanging out and communicating with one another. And so governance drama has a higher risk of harming the comity of the forum. (That's why the moderator discussions are not held publicly a la ArbCom.)
While I can appreciate the notion of a community vote to ban someone, I don't see how it could be conducted in a way that wouldn't cause a pretty massive amount of drama. If the ban goes through or SNOW-closes, it ends fairly quickly, but imagine the aftermath of a no consensus result.
Wasn't there at one time a limit to the number of posts a user could make in a day? Or was that some other forum I was on?
Quote from: GaryV on March 09, 2023, 08:26:12 AM
Wasn't there at one time a limit to the number of posts a user could make in a day? Or was that some other forum I was on?
There's a soft limit of 32, but it's really only a suggestion and isn't even enforced (MMM went over in his early days).
Quote from: GaryV on March 09, 2023, 08:26:12 AM
Wasn't there at one time a limit to the number of posts a user could make in a day? Or was that some other forum I was on?
From the "Forum Guidelines (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=992.0)" thread, there are what the moderators called something like "post quality rules" that were instituted in part because of a certain now-banned member:
QuoteWhat's not allowed:
....
- Excessive posting. Users posting messages at a high frequency (such as more than 8 posts in an hour or 32 posts over a 24-hour period) may be subject to a temporary cool-down ban if the moderation team judges that a user is making a high rate of low-quality posts.
....
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 12:35:40 AM
If anyone wants to suggest language for a rule that they think would 1) solve the problem 2) be non-subjective 3) be able to be fairly enforced 4) wouldn't also catch out innocent members of the community that have been here for years, I would be all ears. Max is right that it does seem to be a recurring problem, I just don't know what a solution would be.
This is somewhat parallel to JN Winkler's idea, and I'm not sure if it exactly meets all of these criteria, but how about "Users may not make more than 15 (or 20?) posts in a single thread in a 24-hour period"?
In MMM-style threads, where there's an instigator interacting with several different users all at once, this would target the instigator because they would be likely to reach this threshold well before anyone else in the thread. If there's an ongoing debate between just two users, this could also be used to stop those two users from posting, while allowing the thread to continue. I'm not sure if it's possible to ban users from a particular thread, but even if it's not, a "warning" to those users would probably suffice in most cases.
(Edit: this doesn't seem so original in light of what 1995hoo just posted, but I guess there's no harm in posting it anyways!)
Quote from: GaryV on March 09, 2023, 08:26:12 AM
Wasn't there at one time a limit to the number of posts a user could make in a day? Or was that some other forum I was on?
Yes, there is, but it's a soft limit that requires us to manually look at the post history. (1995hoo already quoted it upthread.) The limit given is 32 posts per day, and MMM posted 38 times yesterday. Would him posting 6 fewer times yesterday have really helped matters all that much? I don't know that it would.
The situation that rule was formulated to address is where someone is making a large number of fast, effortless posts that essentially serve as white noise on the forum. It's a bit harder to get it to fit the situation we have at hand; for what it's worth I think it's obvious that MMM does put some degree of effort into the posts he makes. It's just that nearly everyone on the forum seems to think his opinions are badly reasoned and/or flat out wrong.
Unfortunately, I don't really think it's a good idea to set the precedent of banning someone for having stupid opinions. There are a few members on here I disagree with on just about everything. But they're, by and large, good people, and I wouldn't want them to worry they might get shown the door just because I think differently than them. If MMM is operating in good faith, that same courtesy should be extended to him. If he's not...well, that's another discussion.
(If I had my druthers, we could just mark certain threads invisible to the "recent posts" views, so someone could post ten thousand times and nobody would be any the wiser unless they picked that specific thread from the board listing. That probably wouldn't be
too hard to code an extension for, but I'm not quite confident enough in my abilities to give it a try.)
CNGL-Leudimin once aptly referred to the poster who was perhaps the biggest reason for the "post quality" rules as being a poster who made "quantity-over-quality threads."
Edited to add: In a different thread from the one in which CNGL-Leudimin made that comment, Scott5114 made the following comment to the same poster. It's a pretty good rule of thumb as to how to decide whether a thread is worth starting or a reply is worth posting (all forms of emphasis in original):
QuoteThe "Peekaboo!" thread was just you saying "I see you". Okay, so–
WHO is going to want to read that thread?
WHAT is going to be posted in it?
WHY would anyone else have a reason to read it?
HOW does that thread's existence benefit anyone but yourself?
Remember, you are not the only person on this forum. Your actions here affect the quality of the forum for everyone else. This isn't a site like Facebook that is so large that nobody will notice what you do. Fill the site with garbage and nobody else will want to come around here. Or you'll get kicked out before it can get to that point.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2023, 08:34:34 AM
Quote from: GaryV on March 09, 2023, 08:26:12 AM
Wasn't there at one time a limit to the number of posts a user could make in a day? Or was that some other forum I was on?
From the "Forum Guidelines (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=992.0)" thread, there are what the moderators called something like "post quality rules" that were instituted in part because of a certain now-banned member:
QuoteWhat's not allowed:
....
- Excessive posting. Users posting messages at a high frequency (such as more than 8 posts in an hour or 32 posts over a 24-hour period) may be subject to a temporary cool-down ban if the moderation team judges that a user is making a high rate of low-quality posts.
....
I believe they were put in place due to Tolbs. Don't think they've been used ever since.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 09:19:41 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2023, 08:34:34 AM
Quote from: GaryV on March 09, 2023, 08:26:12 AM
Wasn't there at one time a limit to the number of posts a user could make in a day? Or was that some other forum I was on?
From the "Forum Guidelines (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=992.0)" thread, there are what the moderators called something like "post quality rules" that were instituted in part because of a certain now-banned member:
QuoteWhat's not allowed:
....
- Excessive posting. Users posting messages at a high frequency (such as more than 8 posts in an hour or 32 posts over a 24-hour period) may be subject to a temporary cool-down ban if the moderation team judges that a user is making a high rate of low-quality posts.
....
I believe they were put in place due to Tolbs. Don't think they've been used ever since.
Yes, it happened at the Peekaboo/Mary Hannah incident. There was a lot of random GSV links he was posting in rapid succession also. MMM's closest analogs are have the over-sexualized TNG posts and now this "won't someone think of the children" stuff he's on now.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 09:19:41 AM
I believe they were put in place due to Tolbs. Don't think they've been used ever since.
Of course. I just didn't see a need to identify the user. The quoted text from Scott5114 was related to the Peekaboo incident. I didn't use the type of quote tag with a link because the thread in which the quoted text appears is locked and I didn't feel like editing the tags.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 08:47:26 AM
(If I had my druthers, we could just mark certain threads invisible to the "recent posts" views, so someone could post ten thousand times and nobody would be any the wiser unless they picked that specific thread from the board listing. That probably wouldn't be too hard to code an extension for, but I'm not quite confident enough in my abilities to give it a try.)
This would be my ideal solution in a perfect world where bugs weren't a thing - I can definitely understand the concern for adverse affects. I'm in the "stop feeding" camp, and really my biggest gripe at this point is the universe thread clogging up the recent posts list (and more often than not, any other threads on the list are derailed threads such as that hotel one).
Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 09, 2023, 09:40:26 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 08:47:26 AM
(If I had my druthers, we could just mark certain threads invisible to the "recent posts" views, so someone could post ten thousand times and nobody would be any the wiser unless they picked that specific thread from the board listing. That probably wouldn't be too hard to code an extension for, but I'm not quite confident enough in my abilities to give it a try.)
This would be my ideal solution in a perfect world where bugs weren't a thing - I can definitely understand the concern for adverse affects. I'm in the "stop feeding" camp, and really my biggest gripe at this point is the universe thread clogging up the recent posts list (and more often than not, any other threads on the list are derailed threads such as that hotel one).
Can't you just hide post notifications from a specific topic? Am I the only one who doesn't use the recent posts function all that much?
The hotel thread was not derailed. The rants were on-topic to the intent of the thread.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 09:41:50 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't use the recent posts function all that much?
No. I almost always browse by board. I know there's new post in that board when the little arrow next to it turns green.
My "home page" (although I don't have my browser set to it as a home page) is Recent Unread Topics, so they show up, but they don't obscure the other unread topics.
I normally first go through show new replies to your posts, and then when I'm done I check out show unread posts since last visit.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 10:05:51 AM
I normally first go through show new replies to your posts, and then when I'm done I check out show unread posts since last visit.
Yeah, me too. The problem is that once you've posted anything, it appears in that feed forever (or until one's post is deleted or thread is viewed after it's locked). So I use that as a deterrent from posting in a thread if I don't feel passionate about it enough...
I'll pick through boards if I'm curious about something out of my area or just use Search.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 09, 2023, 07:22:02 AM
All of us, as the group of forum users, have a fourth option: Ignore it and don't respond at all. I've mentioned that before. Stop picking at a wound and it will soon go away.
https://xkcd.com/386/
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2023, 09:44:14 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 09:41:50 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't use the recent posts function all that much?
No. I almost always browse by board. I know there's new post in that board when the little arrow next to it turns green.
I browse board by board to start, queuing up all the threads with new posts I'm interested in at once (two rounds, first the general boards, then the regional ones and OT), then use the recent posts view to catch anything that came in since the round started, so I don't miss anything once I hit "mark all messages as read".
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2023, 09:43:56 AM
The hotel thread was not derailed. The rants were on-topic to the intent of the thread.
I took that thread more to be a complaint fest from the word go.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2023, 09:43:56 AM
The hotel thread was not derailed. The rants were on-topic to the intent of the thread.
I took that thread more to be a complaint fest from the word go.
And MMM wasn't the creator. Geek11111, who is like the calm version of MMM, started the thread.
Sometimes it's just fun to reply to something ludicrous and point out the fallacy of the ideas, just to see what the poster will do to torture logic again.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 12:43:51 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2023, 09:43:56 AM
The hotel thread was not derailed. The rants were on-topic to the intent of the thread.
I took that thread more to be a complaint fest from the word go.
And MMM wasn't the creator. Geek11111, who is like the calm version of MMM, started the thread.
And also the author of such famous quotes as "sssssss."
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2023, 09:43:56 AM
The hotel thread was not derailed. The rants were on-topic to the intent of the thread.
I took that thread more to be a complaint fest from the word go.
Hotel thread discusses a real underlying issue. It may be of limited interest to general AAroad audience, though, but overall question is 100% legit.
Again, you may need to make up your mind - are you interested enough to participate in discussion or you want to walk away from that? SHouldn't be an issue for responsible adult. IMHO.
For me personally, opinion of today's youth about medical decisions going one way or the other is of some fringe interest, so I did read that part. It was fairly educative to see it between MMM and RGT.
What made
you comment there, though?
Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2023, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2023, 09:43:56 AM
The hotel thread was not derailed. The rants were on-topic to the intent of the thread.
I took that thread more to be a complaint fest from the word go.
Hotel thread discusses a real underlying issue. It may be of limited interest to general AAroad audience, though, but overall question is 100% legit.
Again, you may need to make up your mind - are you interested enough to participate in discussion or you want to walk away from that? SHouldn't be an issue for responsible adult. IMHO.
For me personally, opinion of today's youth about medical decisions going one way or the other is of some fringe interest, so I did read that part. It was fairly educative to see it between MMM and RGT.
What made you comment there, though?
For me, I was very much interested in discussing the topic. Despite MMM's initial post and my suspicions that he would train wreck the thread I shared some of my legit thoughts/experiences. Trouble is that the thread turned into "won't be someone think of the children" fast and went off the deep end.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 01:08:29 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2023, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2023, 09:43:56 AM
The hotel thread was not derailed. The rants were on-topic to the intent of the thread.
I took that thread more to be a complaint fest from the word go.
Hotel thread discusses a real underlying issue. It may be of limited interest to general AAroad audience, though, but overall question is 100% legit.
Again, you may need to make up your mind - are you interested enough to participate in discussion or you want to walk away from that? SHouldn't be an issue for responsible adult. IMHO.
For me personally, opinion of today's youth about medical decisions going one way or the other is of some fringe interest, so I did read that part. It was fairly educative to see it between MMM and RGT.
What made you comment there, though?
For me, I was very much interested in discussing the topic. Despite MMM's initial post and my suspicions that he would train wreck the thread I shared some of my legit thoughts/experiences. Trouble is that the thread turned into "won't be someone think of the children" fast and went off the deep end.
There was interesting thoughts in that thread. But MMM's posts have so much stuff in them that's just repeating himself over and over, it's like it's so hard to distinguish the unique content with just the stuff we've seen over and over again. And MMM is stubborn and won't listen to anyone else, and is not open to changing his mind.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 01:08:29 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2023, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2023, 09:43:56 AM
The hotel thread was not derailed. The rants were on-topic to the intent of the thread.
I took that thread more to be a complaint fest from the word go.
Hotel thread discusses a real underlying issue. It may be of limited interest to general AAroad audience, though, but overall question is 100% legit.
Again, you may need to make up your mind - are you interested enough to participate in discussion or you want to walk away from that? SHouldn't be an issue for responsible adult. IMHO.
For me personally, opinion of today's youth about medical decisions going one way or the other is of some fringe interest, so I did read that part. It was fairly educative to see it between MMM and RGT.
What made you comment there, though?
For me, I was very much interested in discussing the topic. Despite MMM's initial post and my suspicions that he would train wreck the thread I shared some of my legit thoughts/experiences. Trouble is that the thread turned into "won't be someone think of the children" fast and went off the deep end.
So looks like MMM managed to mix too much drama into a good one he brought up. WEll, walk away once things get ugly. I, for one, do that once connectivity issues degrade into route number assignments, for example
I didn't realize how popular this would become since I asked the question.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 02:40:07 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 09, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
They could have been numbered in order by length - several states did that with their highway system. It wouldn't change where the Interstates went.
I suggest that the original US Highway grid system was to avoid disputes. "Why do they get XX, our state is more important." Even so, there were complaints about some routes, like US 60. Since there never was any kind of unified system before, they chose to come up with a grid.
Then when the Interstate system came about, the easiest way to avoid duplicate numbers in the same state was to use a grid, but reverse the order of the numbers. And leave out I-50 and I-60 because they didn't need as many e/w routes as n/s.
Quote from: GaryV on March 09, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
They could have been numbered in order by length - several states did that with their highway system. It wouldn't change where the Interstates went.
I suggest that the original US Highway grid system was to avoid disputes. "Why do they get XX, our state is more important." Even so, there were complaints about some routes, like US 60. Since there never was any kind of unified system before, they chose to come up with a grid.
Then when the Interstate system came about, the easiest way to avoid duplicate numbers in the same state was to use a grid, but reverse the order of the numbers. And leave out I-50 and I-60 because they didn't need as many e/w routes as n/s.
I think the Interstate highway numbering scheme came first, because it's the one that makes more sense. People read and write left to right, so it makes sense to increase them in number from west to east. Also, "lower" altitudes should have "lower numbers" so it makes sense to increase south to north even though people dint write that way. Making the even numbers east-west and the odd numbers also makes perfect sense because "EvEn" has Es just like East and west. "Odd" has Os in North and south.South. since route numbering works exactly the opposite in direction, andthats only because they didn't want interstates and routes near each other, shows the interstate numbers came first.1
By seeing stuff like this post, does, I know, make it hard to ignore, but maybe we should try at least. Because the more you try to educate this guy, he'll be more ridiculous with counterposts to make us respond again and it continues back and forth. And it will never stop.
Plus his head is made of concrete and nothing gets through to him. He is lost and we'll never get through to him. He is not well and admits to possibly having skitso ( don't know how to spell it and spell check is being anal and won't produce suggestions) so this guy is problem City.
IMO we should try to ignore this guy and he will get tired and very well rage quit.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:25:08 AMI've noticed a trend over the years where someone comes along and engages in similar behavior to MMM. Every time said person gets the axe they are quickly replaced by someone else who the same thing anew.
I haven't quite come to my own conclusion if this is just something endemic to the road community. I occasionally see like behavior in other road groups but it is often swept away fairly quickly due to social media platforms usually having more authoritarian moderation. In the groups I manage/admin someone who acts as MMM does probably wouldn't make it a week on average.
Every online community has problem members--this is just the normal distribution in operation. But because facts falling into rich, complex patterns lie at the heart of the road hobby, I also think it has a particularly strong appeal to neurodiverse individuals, and so the dysfunction we often see differs in that regard from what one might encounter on, say, Web forums dedicated to writing or knitting.
In the past I've helped moderate SABRE (our British counterpart), which has had problems similar to ours. There are also Web forums dedicated to roads based in France (SARA) and the Dutch/Flemish-speaking area (WegenForum), and although I have not joined either (I am not fluent in either French or Dutch, and feel leery about posting in English or inflicting machine translation on native speakers), I would be shocked if they have avoided these challenges.
Facebook groups tend to have a take-no-prisoners approach to moderation since the incentives are different. Facebook itself pimps groups, so there is a steady conveyor belt bringing in new members. It also affords moderators little autonomy since it holds group admins liable for breaches of the TOS. The flat structure for organizing content (posts with attached comments in an endless spool, rather than boards with topics that in turn have posts) impairs information accessibility, leading to topic churn. The sense of being part of a community erodes as member population increases to the point of unwieldiness. Both feed member disengagement. Just this morning the admin of the Freeways in LA Facebook group posted to say that new member introductions are now limited to weekly threads, as with 22,000 members, the group is now so large it has become unmanageable for each new member to take a post to introduce himself or herself.
It has reached the point where I post in groups only infrequently. I tend to join, often intending to unfollow more or less immediately, primarily to maintain passive access to information in past posts through the search mechanism.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 12:25:08 AMPersonally I'm not a fan of ignoring stuff and hoping it goes away. My observation is that said tact just encourages the problem people to fester. Crash_It is probably the most recent and extreme example of someone where ignoring them didn't work.
I agree there is a strong case for intervention, but (speaking on my own behalf, and not for the moderating team as a whole) I think we need to be very careful to keep strategic aims in view. We do have a history of initial behavioral outliers growing into valued members of the community. We also don't necessarily want to build a new tool for dealing with annoying newbies, find that it works
really well, and then have it turn into the hammer looking for nails to hit.
That update on Freeways of Los Angeles this morning made me do a double take. That's one of the strictest Facebook groups I'm a member of. I know some of the backstory of how things got how they are on this group but I have to wonder how tenable it will be now long term.
Don't get me wrong, I like the admin of the Freeways or Los Angeles page. He did ask me to post more fairly recently when I was speaking with him on a group call. I didn't want to tell him the reason I don't is because all the posts by group members have to be approved and it takes to long for my tastes.
Heh, I remember when I was the annoying newbie and I even had some threads in this board created about me. It caused a huge new debate about fictional highways. Than an even stranger member joined a few months afterwards and behaved even more bizzare. We both are somehow still on the forum and have cleaned up significantly. But that's honestly the minority of annoying members. Most flame out.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 09:19:41 AM
I believe they were put in place due to Tolbs. Don't think they've been used ever since.
The second part of your belief is incorrect.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 03:51:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 09:19:41 AM
I believe they were put in place due to Tolbs. Don't think they've been used ever since.
The second part of your belief is incorrect.
Huh, I might be mistaken. I haven't been very active on the forum for the entire time since then, so I may have missed some incident.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 04:02:00 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 03:51:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 09:19:41 AM
I believe they were put in place due to Tolbs. Don't think they've been used ever since.
The second part of your belief is incorrect.
Huh, I might be mistaken. I haven't been very active on the forum for the entire time since then, so I may have missed some incident.
We don't announce every moderation activity we do. In fact, not every application of the rules even comes down to using the moderation tools. Sometimes it's as simple as sending a longtime regular a PM saying "Hey, just so you know, the rules say X" and they reply "Whoops, I won't do that anymore then" and then they don't. Nobody but the affected user knows when we do that, which is of course why we do it–no need to publicly call someone out if there's no need.
Heck, even when we do implement a solution using the mod tools, you may not notice. Sometimes the result of that is the user makes a good faith effort to change their behavior. Or they simply leave the forum. Again, we don't really call attention to it, because moderation action is really nobody's business but the mods' and the affected user. There's no need to embarrass a user if they're making a good faith attempt to contribute and just need some guidance.
So don't assume that you have the full picture from what you can see publicly, even if you read 100% of the posts on the forum (which even I don't do).
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 04:10:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 04:02:00 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 03:51:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 09:19:41 AM
I believe they were put in place due to Tolbs. Don't think they've been used ever since.
The second part of your belief is incorrect.
Huh, I might be mistaken. I haven't been very active on the forum for the entire time since then, so I may have missed some incident.
We don't announce every moderation activity we do. In fact, not every application of the rules even comes down to using the moderation tools. Sometimes it's as simple as sending a longtime regular a PM saying "Hey, just so you know, the rules say X" and they reply "Whoops, I won't do that anymore then" and then they don't. Nobody but the affected user knows when we do that, which is of course why we do it–no need to publicly call someone out if there's no need.
Heck, even when we do implement a solution using the mod tools, you may not notice. Sometimes the result of that is the user makes a good faith effort to change their behavior. Or they simply leave the forum. Again, we don't really call attention to it, because moderation action is really nobody's business but the mods' and the affected user. There's no need to embarrass a user if they're making a good faith attempt to contribute and just need some guidance.
So don't assume that you have the full picture from what you can see publicly, even if you read 100% of the posts on the forum (which even I don't do).
Yeah, I understand. I know that another forum, the alternate history forum, that I am on, has every mod decision in one gigantic thread for transparency reasons. So you can see all banned users and why they were banned. I can see pros and cons to that approach.
Wikipedia is extremely transparent in its governance, and my experience in that environment is part of the reason why I try to be discreet in enforcement. (The other is experience in the workforce–the management axiom of "praise in public, criticize in private" is a good one if you value allowing people to save face.)
Has anyone tried the ignore user feature? It lets you ignore people you put on the list. I've used it with other users and their posts show up with an ignore mention. Instead of the content it reminds you that you have chosen to ignore them but you can click on the blue show me the post if you want to override the block.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 09, 2023, 05:19:26 PM
Has anyone tried the ignore user feature? It lets you ignore people you put on the list. I've used it with other users and their posts show up with an ignore mention. Instead of the content it reminds you that you have chosen to ignore them but you can click on the blue show me the post if you want to override the block.
Bear in mind you still see that person's comments if other people quote them. That doesn't happen as often with the one user I have on ignore (bluecountry), but if you put MMM on ignore, you're still likely to see his rants quoted in other people's posts. That's part of the reason why I only have one user on ignore. Actually, I had another user on the list, but he got banned (Crash_It).
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2023, 05:22:13 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 09, 2023, 05:19:26 PM
Has anyone tried the ignore user feature? It lets you ignore people you put on the list. I've used it with other users and their posts show up with an ignore mention. Instead of the content it reminds you that you have chosen to ignore them but you can click on the blue show me the post if you want to override the block.
Bear in mind you still see that person's comments if other people quote them. That doesn't happen as often with the one user I have on ignore (bluecountry), but if you put MMM on ignore, you're still likely to see his rants quoted in other people's posts. That's part of the reason why I only have one user on ignore. Actually, I had another user on the list, but he got banned (Crash_It).
What does bluecountry do
And, let's be honest, half the reason we quote his posts is so that they will live in infamy even if he deletes them later.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2023, 05:24:36 PM
And, let's be honest, half the reason we quote his posts is so that they will live in infamy even if he deletes them later.
Actually, anyone can claim quotes were edited, but that wasn't the reason anyway. It was my own little OCD thing, not trying to hide them. Interesting Thread...
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 05:27:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2023, 05:24:36 PM
And, let's be honest, half the reason we quote his posts is so that they will live in infamy even if he deletes them later.
Actually, anyone can claim quotes were edited, but that wasn't the reason anyway. It was my own little OCD thing, not trying to hide them. Interesting Thread...
Yeah very interesting thread. You've literally created a forum crisis with how the rules won't stop you. Congrats I guess, it seems like you have been able to cleverly not break any rule while pissing us all off. Good job.
No, but it is funny how there are more threads talking about me than threads I actually post in. That wasn't my intention at all. I got 2 warnings months ago so I am not exempt from the rules. Yes, I did post 64 times in one day I admit, but it wasn't all random.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 05:33:25 PM
No, but it is funny how there are more threads talking about me than threads I actually post in.
I can assure you nobody is laughing. Except you, maybe.
Perhaps this thread will give you an idea of what sort of reputation you've made yourself here.
Random Thoughts
Minor Things that Bother You
Don't talk about Child Abuse here
California Speed Limit Raises
And a few others that I hardly posted in, or haven't in months.
I hope by reputation you people don't mean like I'm going to be compared to FritzOwl and Ananland for years to come. I try to keep a low profile on the internet while also getting my points across. I'm going to give myself the benefit of the doubt that most users will forget about me within 6 months from now.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 05:47:59 PM
Random Thoughts
Minor Things that Bother You
Don't talk about Child Abuse here
California Speed Limit Raises
And a few others that I hardly posted in, or haven't in months.
I hope by reputation you people don't mean like I'm going to be compared to FritzOwl and Ananland for years to come. I try to keep a low profile on the internet while also getting my points across. I'm going to give myself the benefit of the doubt that most users will forget about me within 6 months from now.
LOW PROFILE? Oh my sweet summer child...
Well no more than average, but it probably drop to low when I get a job and stop using the forum as frequently. I hope I didn't leave a lasting impression is what I'm saying, not necessarily at this moment.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:12:43 PM
Well no more than average, but it probably drop to low when I get a job and stop using the forum as frequently. I hope I didn't leave a lasting impression is what I'm saying, not necessarily at this moment.
Unfortunately, you have already left a lasting impression.
But that will fizzle out after about 4-6 months I assume, it's not like I post as much as FritzOwl. Nowhere near 10,000.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:16:00 PM
But that will fizzle out after about 4-6 months I assume, it's not like I post as much as FritzOwl. Nowhere near 10,000.
You are at about 2/3 of FritzOwl's post count in about a decade less time. And trust me, even several years down the line people will still be like "hey, remember that MMM guy". Ethanman62187 was on the forum for less than a year and people still remember him.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:16:00 PM
But that will fizzle out after about 4-6 months I assume, it's not like I post as much as FritzOwl. Nowhere near 10,000.
If you delete 8,000 posts, it still means you posted 10,000 times even if you count doesn't show it.
What did the EthanMan do that everyone talks about him so much. Just that VA 28/I-366 85 mph speed limit thing?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:16:00 PM
But that will fizzle out after about 4-6 months I assume
This community still makes fun of Carl Rogers's US-31W video that was published in 2007...........
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:21:51 PM
What did the EthanMan do that everyone talks about him so much. Just that VA 28/I-366 85 mph speed limit thing?
He apparenty got banned for using the purple text pretending to be a mod. I was 8 years old at the time so I wouldn't know.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 03:40:57 PM
Than an even stranger member joined a few months afterwards and behaved even more bizzare. We both are somehow still on the forum and have cleaned up significantly.
:wave:
Also, it has been over 24 hours, so MMM's off topic thread should be unlocked by now.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:16:00 PM
But that will fizzle out after about 4-6 months I assume, it's not like I post as much as FritzOwl. Nowhere near 10,000.
Just FYI, you've made more posts
*today* (33) than FritzOwl has made
*this year* (30).
To that point, we're talking about your behavior here and now, not in the future. There's no point in trying to project what other people will think about you in 4-6 months, because you're essentially just projecting your own behavior. What anyone thinks then depends entirely on your posting behavior in that time period, and that's up to
you, not anyone else.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2023, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:16:00 PM
But that will fizzle out after about 4-6 months I assume, it's not like I post as much as FritzOwl. Nowhere near 10,000.
Just FYI, you've made more posts *today* (33) than FritzOwl has made *this year* (30).
To that point, we're talking about your behavior here and now, not in the future. There's no point in trying to project what other people will think about you in 4-6 months, because you're essentially just projecting your own behavior. What anyone thinks then depends entirely on your posting behavior in that time period, and that's up to you, not anyone else.
I think that the ship has sailed on him being forgotten. If I were him, the best way to turn around his reputation would probably be to stay on the forum and post content that people enjoy people. If he turns into a normal user, in a while we won't assotiate him with this anymore.
Now my trollie is raiding a thread discussing his ban... Trollie deserves a cup of ramen and a silver coin!
I spied on both of these threads yesterday, just didn't feel like saying anything until now.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 07:21:24 PM
I spied on both of these threads yesterday, just didn't feel like saying anything until now.
I wouldn't want to talk either at my public shaming.
"Public" LOL
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 07:21:24 PM
I spied on both of these threads yesterday, just didn't feel like saying anything until now.
What? You've posted here a bunch today, including once just over an hour ago:
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:21:51 PM
I think he's counting an hour ago as "now"
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2023, 07:33:32 PM
You've posted here a bunch today.
No kidding. I have issued a temporary block in accordance with the 32/day post limit. Let's all take a break for the next 48 hours, shall we?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 07:38:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2023, 07:33:32 PM
You've posted here a bunch today.
No kidding. I have issued a temporary block in accordance with the 32/day post limit. Let's all take a break for the next 48 hours, shall we?
I hope it is ok to post the following in honor of that suggestion:
:cheers:
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2023, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 07:38:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2023, 07:33:32 PM
You've posted here a bunch today.
No kidding. I have issued a temporary block in accordance with the 32/day post limit. Let's all take a break for the next 48 hours, shall we?
I hope it is ok to post the following in honor of that suggestion:
:cheers:
The forum should be a lot calmer now. Here is too a more relaxing next 2 days! :cheers:
Dang, I take a step away from the forum for a few days and I miss out on this sorely overdue thread.
Whatever my two cents are worth here, I think now is indeed the time to take some action. Because I'm personally tired of MMM's posts, just like I was tired of Crash_It's posts. His posts ruin the threads he makes them in, in most cases. His opinions are so off-the-wall and there's almost zero reasoning with him on them. At least Crash_It contained his postings to stuff about Illinois and Wisconsin, making him more of a regional issue. Same went with tolbs when he was still around except in North Carolina. But MMM is all over the place, and posts so darn much in a single day.
I've tried to take a "don't feed the trolls" approach since Crash_It's final return and demise. Engaging with users like him or MMM is just unpleasant, and I don't come here for that. I come here for the people who are sensible in their thoughts, contribute valuable information, and/or I can share a mutual respect with in regards to our roadgeek interests. I think this is the mindset we should all take, whether it be MMM or some future troll user. Don't assume every new member is a troll, but if they display the typical characteristics of one, well...
Anyway, I think if no one engaged and used the Ignore feature, that would effectively be a community ban and I'm in favor of using this method in very specific cases like here. But that's not going to happen, since not 100 percent of active users are likely to ignore him.
Maybe we do need community consensus moderation in select instances. I'm talking a "super-super-majority" needed to take action (75%, or at the bare minimum 67%).
Finally, I'll always support user growth. I'm very different than I was in 2013 when I joined. It would be hypocritical of me not to be forgiving. So maybe "troll" bans should only be for a year at a time as opposed to permanent, in order to allow for potential redemption.
Let's continue to find proper solutions in situations like these.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2023, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 07:38:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2023, 07:33:32 PM
You've posted here a bunch today.
No kidding. I have issued a temporary block in accordance with the 32/day post limit. Let's all take a break for the next 48 hours, shall we?
I hope it is ok to post the following in honor of that suggestion:
:cheers:
As much as a gift this is, I'm honestly hoping he gets the hint and doesn't come back.
After 25+ years in this community...
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 08:43:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2023, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 07:38:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2023, 07:33:32 PM
You've posted here a bunch today.
No kidding. I have issued a temporary block in accordance with the 32/day post limit. Let's all take a break for the next 48 hours, shall we?
I hope it is ok to post the following in honor of that suggestion:
:cheers:
As much as a gift this is, I'm honestly hoping he gets the hint and doesn't come back.
Or he comes back a changed man with a job. Maybe he should use the 2 day break to apply for a job.
Now can we get a rule against derailing fictional discussions just because the proposal won't happen? Not everyone shares the same views about what's worth discussing and what's not. The copy/paste "grid needs fixing" stuff might be worthy of some derision since it's been done to death, but not (for instance) a discussion about what could've happened if more of San Francisco's freeway network was built.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 09, 2023, 08:05:44 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2023, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 07:38:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2023, 07:33:32 PM
You've posted here a bunch today.
No kidding. I have issued a temporary block in accordance with the 32/day post limit. Let's all take a break for the next 48 hours, shall we?
I hope it is ok to post the following in honor of that suggestion:
:cheers:
The forum should be a lot calmer now. Here is too a more relaxing next 2 days! :cheers:
I can't believe how the threads he's in all have moved down the list when you open up fictional and off topic.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 06:23:05 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 09, 2023, 06:16:00 PM
But that will fizzle out after about 4-6 months I assume
This community still makes fun of Carl Rogers's US-31W video that was published in 2007...........
Struck through the redundant verbiage. :-D
I was very close to the site of that video on Saturday. I didn't think to look to see if a new shrub had been planted to replace the one that had been removed that he immortalized in that little production.
Quote from: MultiDozenMiler on March 09, 2023, 05:47:59 PM
I hope by reputation you people don't mean like I'm going to be compared to FritzOwl
When the majority of your posts are in Fictional Highways, when you have pie-in-the-sky ideas for putting Interstates all over the place, when you claim non-Interstate highways are dangerous, when you patently refuse to accept criticism of your so-called plans except on the rarest of occasions, when you post pieces of the map without ever showing us how the whole thing looks as a whole, when you have little else to contribute to the forum, when your schlock quickly contaminated multiple threads to the point that others attempted to contain your blather–honestly, it's hard to imagine anyone more fitting for comparison to FritzOwl than you.
And, hey, at least FritzOwl used other people's fictional plans as a basis for his own; you, on the other hand, seem more like a two-year-old with a box of crayons. At least FritzOwl took direction and contains his plans to his own special thread; you, on the other hand, appear less capable of containing yourself. At least FritzOwl simply ignores criticism, even if that sometimes gets irritating; you, on the other hand, return fire with fire every single time and blow up the forum with heated arguments about stuff that's all in your imagination anyway. If FritzOwl is a troll, then at least he stays under his bridge. You're more like a troll in a china shop.
Quote from: MultiDozenMiler on March 09, 2023, 05:47:59 PM
I try to keep a low profile on the internet while also getting my points across.
If that's what you're trying to do, then you have failed miserably at it thus far. You are the highest-profile member on this forum.
I caught him deleting a post. He was told by an MOD to knock it off post ban on his thread, then I asked him how is he still posting as MMM replied to the knock it off. As soon as I asked my question, his post just vanished.
He must of deleted it when I typed my question or my android is acting up and cross posting on its own.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 10, 2023, 06:45:28 PM
The forum without MMM:
I will say, the only thing I will miss is the large presence of Legend of Zelda CDi clips on this forum. All we need now is a good excuse to post ones from Hotel Mario.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 10, 2023, 09:11:58 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 10, 2023, 06:45:28 PM
The forum without MMM:
He'll be back soon unfortunately
Are you really going to make me dig up what's next on the Zelda CDi memes?
@RoadGeekTeen, yeah, and? Do they know my full name, exact location, what I look like, my birthday, or even what car I drive? If not, I could meet all those people in person and they wouldn't know I am MMM from AARoads Forum, yep I've totally been doxed into public embarrassment :-D
@roadman 65, I didn't delete any posts. One I accidentally posted only the quote. I must have refreshed the screen by accident so the text I typed underneath disappeared, so I retype it. My post count has gone from 1875 to 2060 continuously without any deletions. I will respect the mods request.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 11, 2023, 07:43:46 PM
@RoadGeekTeen, yeah, and? Do they know my full name, exact location, what I look like, my birthday, or even what car I drive? If not, I could meet all those people in person and they wouldn't know I am MMM from AARoads Forum, yep I've totally been doxed into public embarrassment :-D
I know your first and last name. I will
not reveal it on the forums.
I know, and I wouldn't post any names either (not that I know any), but people could probably find that out anyway. The links I post that display my maps are all from 1 website that I upload them to first. That site contains the email address as well. And simply sending an email to that address would say "To [insert name here]" anyway. So in terms of that I technically made it easier to dox myself.
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
Too much to hope for a perma-ban?
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
No idea who Mike2357 is. But thanks for the update. :clap:
Edit: Ok, I see now. I can also why I didn't really know about his previous account. He only posted with it for about one week in 2021.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:40:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
No idea who Mike2357 is. But thanks for the update. :clap:
Edit: Ok, I see now. I can also why I didn't really know about his previous account. He only posted with it for about one week in 2021.
SafeSpeeder was another of Mike's aliases. I'm a little surprised that MMM is one as well, honestly!
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
Holy cow. Best plot twist ever!
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 11, 2023, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:40:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
No idea who Mike2357 is. But thanks for the update. :clap:
Edit: Ok, I see now. I can also why I didn't really know about his previous account. He only posted with it for about one week in 2021.
SafeSpeeder was another of Mike's aliases. I'm a little surprised that MMM is one as well, honestly!
I had actually had this slight suspicion a while ago when MMM, in his infancy, posted something about speeding on the New Jersey Turnpike that sounded awfully familiar to something SafeSpeeder had once said, but then I forgot about it after some of the other stuff like "flip-your-car curves" and "master of your domain" took hold. Quite the turn of events this evening!
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 11, 2023, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:40:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
No idea who Mike2357 is. But thanks for the update. :clap:
Edit: Ok, I see now. I can also why I didn't really know about his previous account. He only posted with it for about one week in 2021.
SafeSpeeder was another of Mike's aliases. I'm a little surprised that MMM is one as well, honestly!
There has been chatter about MMM being a sockpuppet for about a month. A lot of people seem to have thought he was a Marf sock. Then again, at this point I suspect that all of these are the same person. Oh well, I guess he turned out to be that George Santos analog after all.
I don't remember Mike2357. What was his claim to infamy?
Quote from: hbelkins on March 11, 2023, 11:01:44 PM
I don't remember Mike2357. What was his claim to infamy?
If you check that profile, there's about 8 pages of postings in just one week. That alone should be a massive red flag. I didn't take the time to really read them, but I imagine they were similar to his stuff under MMM.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
Who is Mike2357? I checked out his profile and he seemed like MMM? How did he get banned? Can someone explain please to me?
Kudos to AARoads's staff! Great job! I had a hunch he was a sock puppet as well but saw no concrete evidence.
Just now realized this interesting factoid - the number 2357 (as in Mike2357) is a prime number, as well as a concatenation of the first four prime numbers (2, 3, 5, 7).
Such a prime number is called a "Smarandache—Wellin prime".
And we know MultiDozenMiler was fond of prime numbers :)
Thus ends an era on the forum. It was crazy, wild, and certainly a moment on this forum that I will never forget. I still want some clarification for who Mike is and what got him banned, but it's fine.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 11, 2023, 11:09:25 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
Who is Mike2357?
He's MMM. Try and keep up, will ya? ;)
RGT, if you want some background, here is a sample thread from "Mike2357".
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0)
Apparently he got banned, and created a sock puppet "Safe Speeder" - again, a sample thread. I think there was an incident where he used a slur "r*t*rded". Whether that's what brought the first ban, I don't remember.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0)
Banned again after "SafeSpeeder" was determined to be a sock puppet. The search function can find more threads if you are so inclined.
Quote from: dlsterner on March 11, 2023, 11:31:10 PM
RGT, if you want some background, here is a sample thread from "Mike2357".
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0)
Apparently he got banned, and created a sock puppet "Safe Speeder" - again, a sample thread. I think there was an incident where he used a slur "r*t*rded". Whether that's what brought the first ban, I don't remember.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0)
Banned again after "SafeSpeeder" was determined to be a sock puppet. The search function can find more threads if you are so inclined.
I can see Mike obsess over straight roads! I see now. Wonder how SafeSpeeder got discovered so quickly but MMM stayed around for so long?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 11, 2023, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on March 11, 2023, 11:31:10 PM
RGT, if you want some background, here is a sample thread from "Mike2357".
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0)
Apparently he got banned, and created a sock puppet "Safe Speeder" - again, a sample thread. I think there was an incident where he used a slur "r*t*rded". Whether that's what brought the first ban, I don't remember.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0)
Banned again after "SafeSpeeder" was determined to be a sock puppet. The search function can find more threads if you are so inclined.
I can see Mike obsess over straight roads! I see now. Wonder how SafeSpeeder got discovered so quickly but MMM stayed around for so long?
He didn't, lots of people expressed opinions that he was a Mike/SafeSpeeder sock. The whole sexy TNG thing was new this round.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 11, 2023, 11:50:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 11, 2023, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on March 11, 2023, 11:31:10 PM
RGT, if you want some background, here is a sample thread from "Mike2357".
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0)
Apparently he got banned, and created a sock puppet "Safe Speeder" - again, a sample thread. I think there was an incident where he used a slur "r*t*rded". Whether that's what brought the first ban, I don't remember.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0)
Banned again after "SafeSpeeder" was determined to be a sock puppet. The search function can find more threads if you are so inclined.
I can see Mike obsess over straight roads! I see now. Wonder how SafeSpeeder got discovered so quickly but MMM stayed around for so long?
He didn't, lots of people expressed opinions that he was a Mike/SafeSpeeder sock. The whole sexy TNG thing was new this round.
Well it took him a while to actually get caught and banned. It seems like there wasn't enough proof for a long time.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 11, 2023, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 11, 2023, 11:50:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 11, 2023, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on March 11, 2023, 11:31:10 PM
RGT, if you want some background, here is a sample thread from "Mike2357".
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29977.0)
Apparently he got banned, and created a sock puppet "Safe Speeder" - again, a sample thread. I think there was an incident where he used a slur "r*t*rded". Whether that's what brought the first ban, I don't remember.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30037.0)
Banned again after "SafeSpeeder" was determined to be a sock puppet. The search function can find more threads if you are so inclined.
I can see Mike obsess over straight roads! I see now. Wonder how SafeSpeeder got discovered so quickly but MMM stayed around for so long?
He didn't, lots of people expressed opinions that he was a Mike/SafeSpeeder sock. The whole sexy TNG thing was new this round.
Well it took him a while to actually get caught and banned. It seems like there wasn't enough proof for a long time.
Here is an early example (excuse the lazy attempt to replicate quote from a locked thread):
"Quote from: jmacswimmer on November 11, 2022, 05:05:21 PM
While we're on the subject, am I the only one that got Mike2357/SafeSpeeder vibes from that quote?
I've had those vibes for a while but for a different reason. I'm not allowed to say what the reason is, however. If you recall things Mike2357 used to say, you might figure it out."
What do think my poll was referencing in the Universe thread? I always took the "George Santos" references to be an inference several believed MMM was a sock.
Mike2357/SafeSpeeder/MMM all listed their location as the NYC area. Not like that itself narrows it down much, but something else I noticed, along with what has been mentioned already.
There are stylistic similarities in the posts that sort of stick out in retrospect--for example, both Mike2357 and MultiMillionMiler love "LOL," and tend to get into run-on sentences that turn into overlong paragraphs once they get going. Mike2357 didn't have "laughable" as his favorite word like MMM did, but perhaps that would have surfaced if he had more time before he flamed out.
We are going to have to watch new member applications carefully for a while.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 11, 2023, 11:52:12 PMWell it took him a while to actually get caught and banned. It seems like there wasn't enough proof for a long time.
I don't want to say too much in the open about sources and methods, but generally speaking, a banned forum user with enough intelligence to evade technical countermeasures can last quite a long time under a sockpuppet account, and even ascend to a position of responsibility. Similarities in post theme, prosodic rhythm, etc. can be enough to form a suspicion (as happened in this case), but often we don't get hard evidence unless there is a failure to cover tracks.
I'll add to that it's very hard to make a credible accusation of sockpuppeting without some form of evidence, since the defense both a guilty and an innocent user would give essentially amounts to "No, that's not me."
This is particularly true when the person involved has a common name and lives in a large metro area–there's probably about a dozen people named Mike in the NYC area who like roads, so without something more to go on it's hard to act on it because the risk of a false positive is so great.
Strange things happen, after all–back in the MTR days there were two men active in the community, both with the same first and last name and both from the same state. Amusingly, when one of them started going by a highway designation as his nom-de-plume, the other went by that same highway designation with "Alternate" appended. The mainline is still here on the forum, but I don't think the Alternate ever made the jump over here.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 12, 2023, 12:09:13 AM
I don't want to say too much in the open about sources and methods, but generally speaking, a banned forum user with enough intelligence to evade technical countermeasures can last quite a long time under a sockpuppet account, and even ascend to a position of responsibility. Similarities in post theme, prosodic rhythm, etc. can be enough to form a suspicion (as happened in this case), but often we don't get hard evidence unless there is a failure to cover tracks.
And one thing I would say about MMM and that, between all of his PA Turnpike curves are dangerous and what defined the east coast, he threw in some other stuff that was much more interesting and intelligent in nature. And then the next post would be about a maximum limit of 67 because it was prime then he'll delete his intelligent posts since his post count reached 2010.
I wonder if it would be possible for a sockpuppet to clean up and get respected enough so that getting caught wouldn't get them banned. I'm honestly not sure.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 12, 2023, 01:20:01 AM
I wonder if it would be possible for a sockpuppet to clean up and get respected enough so that getting caught wouldn't get them banned. I'm honestly not sure.
We've had people do it on the same account before. If you looked at some people's posts from 2010 you'd never guess they're the same person.
I will say that I personally made the connection and that a "fatal flaw" was involved. I will not say what that fatal flaw was.
(Mods, you can delete this post if it gives too much away.)
I don't even remember MMM's two prior accounts. I guess he got his permanent infamy on his third try.
Now let's just hope he doesn't hold a grudge. He seems to be the type to doxx people and start sending Zodiac killer style letters to our homes but instead of symbols they're just prime numbers.
Even if he held a grudge, he probably isn't that savy socially to not make it obvious who he is on another sock puppet attempt.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 12, 2023, 10:04:56 AM
Even if he held a grudge, he probably isn't that savy socially to not make it obvious who he is on another sock puppet attempt.
I was explicitly looking for signs early on, including checking the member statistics pages, and concluded they were different. It was only one specific thing much later on plus communicating with the admins that was a "smoking gun" as Scott5114 put it.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 12, 2023, 08:48:36 AM
I don't even remember MMM's two prior accounts. I guess he got his permanent infamy on his third try.
Now let's just hope he doesn't hold a grudge. He seems to be the type to doxx people and start sending Zodiac killer style letters to our homes but instead of symbols they're just prime numbers.
Whose house numbers and zip codes are prime numbers, and live on curvy roads with high speed limits he can't handle?
Quote from: 1 on March 12, 2023, 10:14:00 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 12, 2023, 10:04:56 AM
Even if he held a grudge, he probably isn't that savy socially to not make it obvious who he is on another sock puppet attempt.
I was explicitly looking for signs early on, including checking the member statistics pages, and concluded they were different. It was only one specific thing much later on plus communicating with the admins that was a "smoking gun" as Scott5114 put it.
Kudos on cracking the code.
I kind of wonder what the point of all the effort into coming back and making a third account is all about. That is several levels of "needing to get a life" beyond what I can wrap my head around.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 12, 2023, 10:16:43 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on March 12, 2023, 08:48:36 AM
I don't even remember MMM's two prior accounts. I guess he got his permanent infamy on his third try.
Now let's just hope he doesn't hold a grudge. He seems to be the type to doxx people and start sending Zodiac killer style letters to our homes but instead of symbols they're just prime numbers.
Whose house numbers and zip codes are prime numbers, and live on curvy roads with high speed limits he can't handle?
Thankfully my address and zip are even numbers and my dead-end road is dead straight its entire length. :-D
Well, I missed out on an interesting plot twist! I don't remember Mike2357, probably due to the generic nature of that username, but I do remember SafeSpeeder - which is certainly a logical connection to MMM given the content of his early posts here. There is definitely some connective tissue in terms of his location and the issues he posted about, too.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 12, 2023, 01:20:01 AM
I wonder if it would be possible for a sockpuppet to clean up and get respected enough so that getting caught wouldn't get them banned. I'm honestly not sure.
Oh, I have zero doubt the answer is Yes, for a few reasons:
1) I had two accounts myself at one time. That could have been grounds for serious trouble, but fortunately, I had enough sense to be agreeable when people starting connecting the dots, so I essentially self-reported the duplicate account, the admin team merged the two accounts without issuing any discipline, and I've been posting from this account ever since.
2) MMM lasted for almost six months. That's a long time. We were generally annoyed by him, but he created some legitimate content and garnered a bit of respect. There was even some discussion of whether or not he was a troll, it wasn't just assumed that he was. He even told us quite a bit about himself, which isn't typical of a troll, and could very easily be why he ended up getting caught.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 12, 2023, 01:44:07 AM
We've had people do it on the same account before. If you looked at some people's posts from 2010 you'd never guess they're the same person.
And this leads me to 3) which is that, depending on MMM's actual age, it's quite possible that he had actually matured since creating his previous accounts.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 12, 2023, 08:48:36 AM
I don't even remember MMM's two prior accounts. I guess he got his permanent infamy on his third try.
"Permanent" in the sense that none of us will forget who he is now. But I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he makes another comeback - possibly even another one where he posts for several months before anyone figures out he's a known troublemaker.
It just occurred to me that 2, 3, 5 & 7 are all prime numbers...another clue in hindsight :-D
I think for the future, we might want to consider having a better procedure to deal with "disruptive" members of the community. This might be a good use for a hidden meta board, restricted to members of the forum for over a certain period of time (a year? two years? more? or simply more of a "trusted" status in the community?) where we could discuss potentially problematic people.
And I'm not asking for it to be a "gossip" board. It would be specifically for cases like this, where we could have some sort of "community consensus", not for nitpicking every new member to the community as this would just be unnecessarily hostile.
Does anyone think this might be a good idea?
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 12, 2023, 11:42:52 AM
I think for the future, we might want to consider having a better procedure to deal with "disruptive" members of the community. This might be a good use for a hidden meta board, restricted to members of the forum for over a certain period of time (a year? two years? more? or simply more of a "trusted" status in the community?) where we could discuss potentially problematic people.
And I'm not asking for it to be a "gossip" board. It would be specifically for cases like this, where we could have some sort of "community consensus", not for nitpicking every new member to the community as this would just be unnecessarily hostile.
Does anyone think this might be a good idea?
This could easily have revealed the "smoking gun" earlier, although not guaranteed. If such a board existed, I would explain exactly how I figured it out in that board; I don't want to say it here because MMM could use it to his advantage in his fourth account.
For those who don't remember, Mike2357's perhaps most notorious thread is still active. He initially called it "Retard Routes," and that title unsurprisingly got some pushback and caused the mods to lock the thread until he requested that they change it to "Weird Routes."
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 12, 2023, 01:20:01 AMI wonder if it would be possible for a sockpuppet to clean up and get respected enough so that getting caught wouldn't get them banned. I'm honestly not sure.
As Webny99 noted upthread, there have been instances of people self-reporting second accounts and simply having their posts merged with the main account without penalty. The usual scenario is the second account going inactive due to loss of the password.
I am not aware of any instances on this forum of previously banned users being allowed to remain once they have been found to have rejoined under a sockpuppet account. However, in the past I had moderator responsibilities on another road-related forum where there was at least one instance of a banned user being allowed to remain for a time under a new account. That forum bans members by majority vote and he ended up losing at least two (maybe three) ban votes.
While it is certainly possible for most people--even many "problem" users--to learn different styles for communicating on a Web forum and thereby engage with the community in a more constructive way, permanent bans are strong medicine and tend not to be given unless the user comes to be seen as incorrigible.
I have received an email from him. Key points:
- He knows that the email address is what did him in, and he was surprised it wasn't caught earlier. At the time he posted his email in that fictional highway tab, he didn't care whether he got banned or not.
- He does not intend on creating a fourth account, although he doesn't realize MMM was his third and not his second. He had mental health issues at the time of his first account, and he implies that he doesn't anymore, but I'm not entirely sure that's true.
- Most of the topics were trolling, but the child abuse discussion was serious. No determination one way or the other on his sex life.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 11, 2023, 10:53:18 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 11, 2023, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:40:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 11, 2023, 10:34:03 PM
I can't tell if MMM was banned or if the admins just reset his post count to zero.
A smoking gun has been shared with us that MMM is a sockpuppet of Mike2357. He has therefore been permanently banned.
No idea who Mike2357 is. But thanks for the update. :clap:
Edit: Ok, I see now. I can also why I didn't really know about his previous account. He only posted with it for about one week in 2021.
SafeSpeeder was another of Mike's aliases. I'm a little surprised that MMM is one as well, honestly!
There has been chatter about MMM being a sockpuppet for about a month. A lot of people seem to have thought he was a Marf sock. Then again, at this point I suspect that all of these are the same person. Oh well, I guess he turned out to be that George Santos analog after all.
The various Marf sockpuppets–or, as someone memorably put it, "the Marves"–were often easy to identify because the thing they all had in common was a rather severe grudge against webny99 (I was never clear on the history behind that). It was often extremely obvious and vitriolic stuff. MMM, Mike2357, etc. never went down that path as far as I can recall.
Quote from: 1 on March 12, 2023, 01:47:27 PM
I have received an email from him. Key points:
- He knows that the email address is what did him in, and he was surprised it wasn't caught earlier. At the time he posted his email in that fictional highway tab, he didn't care whether he got banned or not.
- He does not intend on creating a fourth account, although he doesn't realize MMM was his third and not his second. He had mental health issues at the time of his first account, and he implies that he doesn't anymore, but I'm not entirely sure that's true.
- Most of the topics were trolling, but the child abuse discussion was serious. No determination one way or the other on his sex life.
I don't trust him. He's creating a 4th account. He literally revealed that he was a troll, or at least heavily hinted at it.
Quote from: 1 on March 12, 2023, 01:47:27 PM
- He does not intend on creating a fourth account, although he doesn't realize MMM was his third and not his second. He had mental health issues at the time of his first account, and he implies that he doesn't anymore, but I'm not entirely sure that's true.
(https://media.tenor.com/QwcxGNHGU_8AAAAC/dr-evil-right.gif)
To tie together two different threads of discussion here: I would support this thread and possibly the entire "Suggestions and Questions" board being switched to a user-only board.
It strikes me as unhelpful to all parties involved to give non-users, possibly including MMM and/or other banned users, the ability to read threads like this one. I suspect that knowing you're being talked about would tend to encourage you to try to come back. Also, if potential users/lurkers encounter this thread in casual browsing, they could be turned off by it.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 12, 2023, 01:54:37 PMI don't trust him. He's creating a 4th account. He literally revealed that he was a troll, or at least heavily hinted at it.
Recidivism is nearly 100% with the kinds of trolls that earn themselves permanent bans. But experience does suggest it could take quite a while for him to turn his attention back to us. Mike2357 surfaced in August 2021, and then SafeSpeeder showed up that September, but it took until November 2022 for MMM.
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2023, 02:10:22 PM
To tie together two different threads of discussion here: I would support this thread and possibly the entire "Suggestions and Questions" board being switched to a user-only board.
It strikes me as unhelpful to all parties involved to give non-users, possibly including MMM and/or other banned users, the ability to read threads like this one. I suspect that knowing you're being talked about would tend to encourage you to try to come back. Also, if potential users encounter it in casual browsing, they could be turned off by it.
MMM explicitly said in his email to me that I can post what he said in his email here.
EDIT: He barely even remembers his first two accounts. He recognizes the username of the first one but doesn't really remember what he did there. The second has pretty much entirely vanished from his memory.
^ Well, that certainly confirms my point, as I was fairly certain that he would be watching this thread.
Are there any drawbacks to making "Suggestions and Questions" a user-only board?
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2023, 02:19:22 PM
^ Well, that certainly confirms my point, as I was fairly certain that he would be watching this thread.
Are there any drawbacks to making "Suggestions and Questions" a user-only board?
My guess is that mods want guests to be able to learn about how we operate before they join, but a mod can confirm.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 12, 2023, 01:48:11 PM
The various Marf sockpuppets–or, as someone memorably put it, "the Marves"–were often easy to identify because the thing they all had in common was a rather severe grudge against webny99 (I was never clear on the history behind that). It was often extremely obvious and vitriolic stuff. MMM, Mike2357, etc. never went down that path as far as I can recall.
This is quite the rabbit hole, but I believe the origin of Marf's apparent hate for me was my disrespect for the ideas he posted in the Fictional board, including
this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21782.0), but especially a series he created called "Maine Highway Fridays" (see
here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19201.0) and
here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19282.0); note SectorZ with an all-timer in the second one :rofl:)).
I thought the whole concept was quite hilarious, and made some sort of disparaging remark about it in another thread, which he took serious offense to. Then a few weeks later, when I expressed support for someone else's fictional proposal, he attacked me for it, leading to a warning, and the rest is history.
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2023, 02:52:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 12, 2023, 01:48:11 PM
The various Marf sockpuppets–or, as someone memorably put it, "the Marves"–were often easy to identify because the thing they all had in common was a rather severe grudge against webny99 (I was never clear on the history behind that). It was often extremely obvious and vitriolic stuff. MMM, Mike2357, etc. never went down that path as far as I can recall.
This is quite the rabbit hole, but I believe the origin of Marf's apparent hate for me was my disrespect for the ideas he posted in the Fictional board, including this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21782.0), but especially a series he created called "Maine Highway Fridays" (see here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19201.0) and here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19282.0); note SectorZ with an all-timer in the second one :rofl:)).
I thought the whole concept of was quite hilarious, and made some sort of disparaging remark about it in another thread, which he took serious offense to. Then a few weeks later, when I expressed support for someone else's fictional proposal, he attacked me for it, leading to a warning, and the rest is history.
Damn that was some peak sarcasm on my part with that one. The fact that he took it seriously was what made it good.
And, wait a minute, Marf made his own map of Los Santos. The running joke here that MMM was George Santos... It's like some X-Files level coincidences now.
Did I miss something? I see all of MMM posts have been deleted? Is he no longer a member? :confused:
Read the last two pages, he was a sock puppet.
I now see. For another user named Mike. Interesting. He wouldn't been the first and won't be the last.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 11, 2023, 11:54:57 PM
I've had those vibes for a while but for a different reason. I'm not allowed to say what the reason is, however.
I've seen a number of people make similar statements. Frankly, this makes no sense to me.
There aren't national security secrets or legally enforceable nondisclosure agreements at play here. Nothing is keeping you from sharing your insight. Why even announce that you have it if you aren't willing to share it?
"Ha ha ha, I've got a secret and I'm not telling!" is the vibe this gives off.
In this case, the reasons would be:
1) Divulging the reason you knew MMM was sockpuppeting, in a place where he could read it, would just mean he'd know how to avoid tipping us off next time.
2) Perhaps the reason Max doesn't want to say anything is because he thinks it could be interpreted as unkind or insulting.
I think that was 1 quote came from originally? I definitely would have been less nice about the situation considering the chaos caused by MMM.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 12, 2023, 09:31:12 PM
I think that was 1 quote came from originally? I definitely would have been less nice about the situation considering the chaos caused by MMM.
The line that HB quoted actually came from
jmacswimmer, but your quote tags didn't post correctly, so it looked like it was from you.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 12, 2023, 09:09:14 PM
In this case, the reasons would be:
1) Divulging the reason you knew MMM was sockpuppeting, in a place where he could read it, would just mean he'd know how to avoid tipping us off next time.
Hence my proposal for creating a new private board.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 12, 2023, 09:09:14 PM
In this case, the reasons would be:
1) Divulging the reason you knew MMM was sockpuppeting, in a place where he could read it, would just mean he'd know how to avoid tipping us off next time.
Is that a bad thing though? If he wants to come back as a different, improved person, no one will be the wiser; he will be welcomed, and we will all move on our merry ways.
If he wanted to post well thought out, insightful posts for several months, then suddenly be an ass, that's on him.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 12, 2023, 10:20:15 PM
Is that a bad thing though? If he wants to come back as a different, improved person, no one will be the wiser; he will be welcomed, and we will all move on our merry ways.
If he wants to be a different, improved person, there's no need to ban him.
If he wants to be an ass next time around, it would be nice if we didn't teach him how to cover his tracks. Then, at least, he's more likely to fuck up and get caught faster.
I wonder if he came up with many of those far out stories to throw us off the track. And the fact some of them he would tell and we caught him lying as he would say later on that he is against what he previously was for.
Maybe those were the lies. As when we lie and tell stories about ourselves we forget later on what we said and when in a heated argument the real truth or alternative version comes out.
I once managed to troll a troll elsewhere by using a fictional sign posted here :sombrero:.
I'm surprised MMM wasn't discovered to be a sock puppet and banned earlier.
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2023, 09:52:05 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 12, 2023, 09:31:12 PM
I think that was 1 quote came from originally? I definitely would have been less nice about the situation considering the chaos caused by MMM.
The line that HB quoted actually came from jmacswimmer, but your quote tags didn't post correctly, so it looked like it was from you.
It was actually from me. The quotation is messed up as pasted further up the thread. Here's a link to the original, from a now-locked thread:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32429.msg2786516#msg2786516
The reason I said "I'm not allowed to say" was that the moderators had deleted at least one, if not more, of my posts in another thread commenting about the sort of thing that had been making me suspect something was up. Based on that, I concluded (reasonably, in my view) that it was not something we were allowed to say. It was not an issue of the "moderator protection" phenomenon some of us have observed as to NE2 and kernals12, however.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 13, 2023, 07:40:00 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2023, 09:52:05 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 12, 2023, 09:31:12 PM
I think that was 1 quote came from originally? I definitely would have been less nice about the situation considering the chaos caused by MMM.
The line that HB quoted actually came from jmacswimmer, but your quote tags didn't post correctly, so it looked like it was from you.
It was actually from me. The quotation is messed up as pasted further up the thread. Here's a link to the original, from a now-locked thread:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32429.msg2786516#msg2786516
The reason I said "I'm not allowed to say" was that the moderators had deleted at least one, if not more, of my posts in another thread commenting about the sort of thing that had been making me suspect something was up. Based on that, I concluded (reasonably, in my view) that it was not something we were allowed to say. It was not an issue of the "moderator protection" phenomenon some of us have observed as to NE2 and kernals12, however.
I remembered you being another person who'd said that you weren't allowed to disclose something.
In the case of this one, I try to trim quotes so as to prevent long gray boxes before coming to original content or a reply. I mess them up sometimes, and I apologize for that.
QuoteSo yeah, the topics I was totally trolling about were:
Star Trek/Sexual Stuff
Atomic Clock Scams/Physics
Helicopter Grapple Hook Ideas
Local route 37 mph speed limit
Speed camera suggestions
Giant Fans to assist drivers on curves
NYC not being on the East Coast
Physics/Relativity comments
I-90 being bootleg/Cargo Plane routes
Car/Boat combination type vehicles
Obsessing over mild curves in roads
And the Serious ones were:
Comments Against Child Abuse
Climate Change Comments
Most of my Fictional Highway Plans
Enhanced Road Test Requirements
Quote from: hbelkins on March 13, 2023, 10:55:09 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 13, 2023, 07:40:00 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2023, 09:52:05 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 12, 2023, 09:31:12 PM
I think that was 1 quote came from originally? I definitely would have been less nice about the situation considering the chaos caused by MMM.
The line that HB quoted actually came from jmacswimmer, but your quote tags didn't post correctly, so it looked like it was from you.
It was actually from me. The quotation is messed up as pasted further up the thread. Here's a link to the original, from a now-locked thread:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32429.msg2786516#msg2786516
The reason I said "I'm not allowed to say" was that the moderators had deleted at least one, if not more, of my posts in another thread commenting about the sort of thing that had been making me suspect something was up. Based on that, I concluded (reasonably, in my view) that it was not something we were allowed to say. It was not an issue of the "moderator protection" phenomenon some of us have observed as to NE2 and kernals12, however.
I remembered you being another person who'd said that you weren't allowed to disclose something.
In the case of this one, I try to trim quotes so as to prevent long gray boxes before coming to original content or a reply. I mess them up sometimes, and I apologize for that.
It was Max Rockatansky who mixed it up, not you, and he understandably didn't use quote boxes for that material because it comes from a locked thread. No worries either way, though.
If we got all mixed up on 3/11, that would have been perfect.
I think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
We all we annoyed, sure, by this troll. Yet it got our attention and to some it amused us his rebuttals he would give when we either responded sarcastically or critically to his insane ideas. So we now are going through a slight adjustment period to get back to normal.
See, I don't know if MMM was trolling or really didn't have full a perspective on how/why his actions might piss everyone off. The timing was kind of interesting given MMM was just ramping up as Lord Carhorn was being given the boot.
Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2023, 01:04:10 PM
If we got all mixed up on 3/11, that would have been perfect.
But I don't know what to do. Next thing I turn around...
There was a few occasions I tried to call him out. Obviously it was my own opinion, but people were just way too caught up in his words to sit back and think...could he really be trolling us?
Once was...
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32635.msg2802707#msg2802707
Specifically: "There really isn't anything that MMM says that I don't think he's exaggerating one way or another."
I also questioned him here:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33014.msg2825170#msg2825170
Who says MMM is 23? Him, and only him. He could be 17 and ticked he can't rent a hotel room for his upcoming prom.
Sadly, I think others more so silently questioned *me* as to my accusation.
I also never knew what to make of the Category 5 Hurricane comment I lobbed at him. After his many comments regarding the speed limit being prime numbers, he never once responded to my statement that a Category 5 minimum wind speed is...a prime number. The only response he gave was questioning why it was such an odd speed when the other category levels are more standard level changes (at 5s or 0s). I couldn't figure out why he wouldn't pounce on such an opportunity to talk about prime numbers when such a significant one exists in the weather world.
Guys, I'm pretty sure we can let this die. He was a turd. He's gone now. Let's get on with our bickering about things that aren't punk kids with nothing better to do.
Yeah, but I'm kind of okay with kicking dirt on his forum tombstone here for awhile. You reap what you sow when act like a fool.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 13, 2023, 04:40:14 PM
Yeah, but I'm kind of okay with kicking dirt on his forum tombstone here for awhile. You reap what you sow when act like a fool.
I've probably gotten my share of dirt kicking out of my system. This thread is his public eulogy, a eulogy I guarantee he is reading. We'll all get it out of our system soon.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 13, 2023, 04:52:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 13, 2023, 04:40:14 PM
Yeah, but I'm kind of okay with kicking dirt on his forum tombstone here for awhile. You reap what you sow when act like a fool.
I've probably gotten my share of dirt kicking out of my system. This thread is his public eulogy, a eulogy I guarantee he is reading. We'll all get it out of our system soon.
Usually this kind of thing runs its course in due time. I'd be lying if I didn't say I got some enjoyment out of the downfall of Flat Illinois and Lord Carhorn.
Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2023, 11:50:43 AM
QuoteSo yeah, the topics I was totally trolling about were:
Star Trek/Sexual Stuff
Atomic Clock Scams/Physics
Helicopter Grapple Hook Ideas
Local route 37 mph speed limit
Speed camera suggestions
Giant Fans to assist drivers on curves
NYC not being on the East Coast
Physics/Relativity comments
I-90 being bootleg/Cargo Plane routes
Car/Boat combination type vehicles
Obsessing over mild curves in roads
And the Serious ones were:
Comments Against Child Abuse
Climate Change Comments
Most of my Fictional Highway Plans
Enhanced Road Test Requirements
1, how did you get this quote? Was this posted on the forum?
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
I think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
Eh, I'm not. I even accidentally posted a reply to him once addressing him as "Mike" without thinking about it, before realizing what I did and going back to edit it out. I should have listened to whatever part of my brain made me do that, I guess.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:07:48 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
I think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
Eh, I'm not. I even accidentally posted a reply to him once addressing him as "Mike" without thinking about it, before realizing what I did and going back to edit it out. I should have listened to whatever part of my brain made me do that, I guess.
I'm certainly shook. Wasn't on the forum when Mike was here, and I was actually talking to MMM like he was a real person just with crazy ideas, trying to take him seriously and help him understand. Now I know that he's just a troll.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:07:48 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
I think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
Eh, I'm not. I even accidentally posted a reply to him once addressing him as "Mike" without thinking about it, before realizing what I did and going back to edit it out. I should have listened to whatever part of my brain made me do that, I guess.
I'm certainly shook. Wasn't on the forum when Mike was here, and I was actually talking to MMM like he was a real person just with crazy ideas, trying to take him seriously and help him understand. Now I know that he's just a troll.
When I was about five years older than you I came to the realization that there are some people that there's no point in trying to help understand anything, because they can't or don't want to. Trolls certainly fall in the "don't want to understand" category.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:07:17 PM
1, how did you get this quote? Was this posted on the forum?
I assume he got it through an email from
MMM Mike, but I could be wrong
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:14:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:07:48 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
I think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
Eh, I'm not. I even accidentally posted a reply to him once addressing him as "Mike" without thinking about it, before realizing what I did and going back to edit it out. I should have listened to whatever part of my brain made me do that, I guess.
I'm certainly shook. Wasn't on the forum when Mike was here, and I was actually talking to MMM like he was a real person just with crazy ideas, trying to take him seriously and help him understand. Now I know that he's just a troll.
When I was about five years older than you I came to the realization that there are some people that there's no point in trying to help understand anything, because they can't or don't want to. Trolls certainly fall in the "don't want to understand" category.
Well I didn't know that he was a troll. I thought he was just a clueless person on the internet.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:41:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:14:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:07:48 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
I think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
Eh, I'm not. I even accidentally posted a reply to him once addressing him as "Mike" without thinking about it, before realizing what I did and going back to edit it out. I should have listened to whatever part of my brain made me do that, I guess.
I'm certainly shook. Wasn't on the forum when Mike was here, and I was actually talking to MMM like he was a real person just with crazy ideas, trying to take him seriously and help him understand. Now I know that he's just a troll.
When I was about five years older than you I came to the realization that there are some people that there's no point in trying to help understand anything, because they can't or don't want to. Trolls certainly fall in the "don't want to understand" category.
Well I didn't know that he was a troll. I thought he was just a clueless person on the internet.
Why not both?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:41:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:14:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:07:48 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
I think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
Eh, I'm not. I even accidentally posted a reply to him once addressing him as "Mike" without thinking about it, before realizing what I did and going back to edit it out. I should have listened to whatever part of my brain made me do that, I guess.
I'm certainly shook. Wasn't on the forum when Mike was here, and I was actually talking to MMM like he was a real person just with crazy ideas, trying to take him seriously and help him understand. Now I know that he's just a troll.
When I was about five years older than you I came to the realization that there are some people that there's no point in trying to help understand anything, because they can't or don't want to. Trolls certainly fall in the "don't want to understand" category.
Well I didn't know that he was a troll. I thought he was just a clueless person on the internet.
Don't take too much responsibility upon yourself. If people are genuinely interested, they will ask questions. They will go and read something before asking. If someone is making statements instead of asking, repeatedly, it's not the case where your efforts would pay back.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:07:48 PMQuote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2023, 01:28:12 PMI think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
Eh, I'm not. I even accidentally posted a reply to him once addressing him as "Mike" without thinking about it, before realizing what I did and going back to edit it out. I should have listened to whatever part of my brain made me do that, I guess.
I wondered how I had missed Mike2357's appearance on the forum, so I consulted my diaries from August and September 2021. It appears that, at the time, I was preoccupied with motorway construction in Poland and Romania. (Poland wins the prize for most picturesquely ugly signs in Europe, while Romania leans hard into its Roman heritage with red-capped fake milestones that I think are probably made of plastic with patches of retroreflective sheeting for text elements.)
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:41:19 PMWell I didn't know that he was a troll. I thought he was just a clueless person on the internet.
A troll is as a troll does, but discussion sabotage often comes in subtle forms that take some time to play out and experience to recognize once they have done so. I did notice that a few times when I asked him questions about what he was proposing, there would be a long silence, and then he would go back to talking up craziness.
Quote from: kalvado on March 13, 2023, 05:50:02 PMIf people are genuinely interested, they will ask questions. They will go and read something before asking. If someone is making statements instead of asking, repeatedly, it's not the case where your efforts would pay back.
Yup. This is an important telltale.
Quote from: kalvado on March 13, 2023, 05:50:02 PM
Don't take too much responsibility upon yourself. If people are genuinely interested, they will ask questions. They will go and read something before asking. If someone is making statements instead of asking, repeatedly, it's not the case where your efforts would pay back.
Another tell is refusing to accept information from what should be taken as a more reliable source. Like when he had some ludicrous portrayal of I-11/US-93 north of Kingman, and I had just driven it and disputed his assumptions, he chose to stick with his own version of what he supposed it to be like rather than take it from someone who had actually been there and seen it in person.
There are some people who would do this who are not trolls, but they're generally not worth your time either.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 06:04:14 PM
he chose to stick with his own version of what he supposed it to be like rather than take it from someone who had actually been there and seen it in person.
There are some people who would do this who are not trolls, but they're generally not worth your time either.
This applies to over 25% of the active posters here. :)
And yet there were a handful that kept replying and replying and replying and replying and the troll vortex kept spinning and spinning and spinning...
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 13, 2023, 05:50:02 PM
Don't take too much responsibility upon yourself. If people are genuinely interested, they will ask questions. They will go and read something before asking. If someone is making statements instead of asking, repeatedly, it's not the case where your efforts would pay back.
Another tell is refusing to accept information from what should be taken as a more reliable source. Like when he had some ludicrous portrayal of I-11/US-93 north of Kingman, and I had just driven it and disputed his assumptions, he chose to stick with his own version of what he supposed it to be like rather than take it from someone who had actually been there and seen it in person.
There are some people who would do this who are not trolls, but they're generally not worth your time either.
At the risk of sounding the Unpopular Asshole Alarm™, I feel the staff needs to act quicker in these situations.
Quackmaster General Mikey NumbersNYC trolled about a dozen threads and that toxicity quickly spills over into nearly every other thread.
I've been here 12 years and have never felt the need to suggest how to moderate; this isn't exactly a cause of any hurt feelings, but just how things can really get out of control with such a long leash.
On the other hand, there's a half dozen or so here that just don't know when to quit giving out admission passes to the shitshows.
Quote from: formulanone on March 13, 2023, 06:12:31 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 13, 2023, 05:50:02 PM
Don't take too much responsibility upon yourself. If people are genuinely interested, they will ask questions. They will go and read something before asking. If someone is making statements instead of asking, repeatedly, it's not the case where your efforts would pay back.
Another tell is refusing to accept information from what should be taken as a more reliable source. Like when he had some ludicrous portrayal of I-11/US-93 north of Kingman, and I had just driven it and disputed his assumptions, he chose to stick with his own version of what he supposed it to be like rather than take it from someone who had actually been there and seen it in person.
There are some people who would do this who are not trolls, but they're generally not worth your time either.
At the risk of sounding the Unpopular Asshole Alarm™, I feel the staff needs to act quicker in these situations.
Quackmaster General Mikey NumbersNYC trolled about a dozen threads and that toxicity quickly spills over into nearly every other thread.
The thing is, he did not explicitly break any rules. He was annoying, but being annoying isn't against the rules.
Right, that's kind of the key problem here. I don't want us to get to the point where someone can get moderated for having a stupid opinion. (If we did, I'd probably have to ban myself.) And we do need a clear rule we can point to when someone says "Why am I banned?"
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 13, 2023, 06:06:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 06:04:14 PM
he chose to stick with his own version of what he supposed it to be like rather than take it from someone who had actually been there and seen it in person.
There are some people who would do this who are not trolls, but they're generally not worth your time either.
This applies to over 25% of the active posters here. :)
I said what I said. :P
Quote from: formulanone on March 13, 2023, 06:12:31 PM
At the risk of sounding the Unpopular Asshole Alarm™, I feel the staff needs to act quicker in these situations. I've been here 12 years and have never felt the need to suggest how to moderate, but Quackmaster General Mikey NumbersNYC trolled about a dozen threads and that toxicity quickly spills over into nearly every other thread.
Some of me agrees with this. And some of me believes that this was more of the problem...
Quote
And yet there were a handful that kept replying and replying and replying and replying and the troll vortex kept spinning and spinning and spinning...
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:13:57 PM
The thing is, he did not explicitly break any rules. He was annoying, but being annoying isn't against the rules.
Maybe the rules need to be reviewed, to tone down what can become such an issue that it continues to be discussed several days later. A lot was made about the 32 post a day rule. Yet, it only took a few posts to derail several threads.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2023, 06:22:37 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 13, 2023, 06:12:31 PM
At the risk of sounding the Unpopular Asshole Alarm™, I feel the staff needs to act quicker in these situations. I've been here 12 years and have never felt the need to suggest how to moderate, but Quackmaster General Mikey NumbersNYC trolled about a dozen threads and that toxicity quickly spills over into nearly every other thread.
Some of me agrees with this. And some of me believes that this was more of the problem...
Quote
And yet there were a handful that kept replying and replying and replying and replying and the troll vortex kept spinning and spinning and spinning...
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:13:57 PM
The thing is, he did not explicitly break any rules. He was annoying, but being annoying isn't against the rules.
Maybe the rules need to be reviewed, to tone down what can become such an issue that it continues to be discussed several days later. A lot was made about the 32 post a day rule. Yet, it only took a few posts to derail several threads.
The 32 post rule is not consistantly enforced. Many people break that rule, sometimes multiple days in a row, without anything happening. MMM was really given that punishment IMO to find some reason to kick him off for a bit (mods, don't get mad at me for saying that, I admit that I could be wrong). It almost seems like more of a guideline than a rule.
There is a reason the rule says "such as" and "may" where it does: because there are legitimate reasons for going over it. Examples include returning from a long trip and catching up replying to threads that were started while you were gone, or GMing one of the "Guess the ..." games and still keeping up with your usual posting.
We also don't have any sort of automatic alert system that tells us that someone has gone over 32 posts, so if one of us is going to your posts page and counting your posts to begin with, it means that we already feel like your posting is low-quality enough that the rule may need to be enforced. (And if we think you're making constructive posts that add value to the forum, then we have no reason to check how many posts you've made in the last 24 hours.)
The only reason there's an exact post number specified is because it was written while we were dealing with someone who I suspected probably wouldn't have understood the phrase "high rate of low-quality posts" if a number wasn't included.
I'm guessing most people wouldn't want us to be hardasses about enforcing that particular rule.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:34:18 PM
The 32 post rule is not consistantly enforced. Many people break that rule, sometimes multiple days in a row, without anything happening. MMM was really given that punishment IMO to find some reason to kick him off for a bit (mods, don't get mad at me for saying that, I admit that I could be wrong). It almost seems like more of a guideline than a rule.
Talking about speed limits, though,
Quote from: kalvado on March 13, 2023, 06:43:17 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:34:18 PM
The 32 post rule is not consistantly enforced. Many people break that rule, sometimes multiple days in a row, without anything happening. MMM was really given that punishment IMO to find some reason to kick him off for a bit (mods, don't get mad at me for saying that, I admit that I could be wrong). It almost seems like more of a guideline than a rule.
Talking about speed limits, though,
It's actually quite hard to hit 32 posts during normal times. There really isn't that much going on the forum to warrent that many posts. I was passing 32 so many times during the whole MMM fiasco as there was so much shit going on in those threads. But with MMM banished to the shadow realm my posting frequency has dropped off a cliff, with only like 8-10 posts the last few days, and a few more than that today but will still not pass 32 most likely.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
banished to the shadow realm
This did not happen. He got a regular ban. A shadow ban would look like nobody was replying to him, but he wouldn't appear banned on his screen and would have had to figure it out himself.
Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2023, 06:49:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
banished to the shadow realm
This did not happen. He got a regular ban. A shadow ban would look like nobody was replying to him, but he wouldn't appear banned on his screen and would have had to figure it out himself.
I know what a shadow ban is. I was making a joke :rolleyes:.
I can see why shadowbanning is a popular practice on large social media sites, and I can think of a few instances in which it would potentially be useful here. However, there's something about the practice that seems unethical to me, such that I don't think it would ever be a practice this forum would adopt, even if there were a feature available in the software. The closest thing we have is requiring pre-approval of posts before they go public.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 06:58:46 PM
I can see why shadowbanning is a popular practice on large social media sites, and I can think of a few instances in which it would potentially be useful here. However, there's something about the practice that seems unethical to me, such that I don't think it would ever be a practice this forum would adopt, even if there were a feature available in the software. The closest thing we have is requiring pre-approval of posts before they go public.
It's really easy to tell/check if you've been shadowbanned if you have even a tiny bit of internet knowledge. Copy the link of your post into incognito mode, if you can see it you are not shadowbanned, if it doesn't you could be.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the "posts must add to the discussion" rule is being enforced much, either.
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 13, 2023, 07:11:37 PM
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the "posts must add to the discussion" rule is being enforced much, either.
That's very subjective and vauge a lot of the time.
I personally think the 32 posts/day limit is too high, though I realize it was set at that value partly to preclude arguments that moderators enforce it arbitrarily. A lower limit should (at least in theory) encourage participants to pack more of a punch into each post and think twice about whether a given point needs to be responded to.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 13, 2023, 07:16:44 PM
I personally think the 32 posts/day limit is too high, though I realize it was set at that value partly to preclude arguments that moderators enforce it arbitrarily. A lower limit should (at least in theory) encourage participants to pack more of a punch into each post and think twice about whether a given point needs to be responded to.
On one of the days that MMM went above 32, I had to warn Max Rockatansky that he was at 30. I made 16 that day.
I made 23 posts on March 6.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 13, 2023, 07:16:44 PM
I personally think the 32 posts/day limit is too high, though I realize it was set at that value partly to preclude arguments that moderators enforce it arbitrarily. A lower limit should (at least in theory) encourage participants to pack more of a punch into each post and think twice about whether a given point needs to be responded to.
I disagree. I don't want the forum to be something where you have to think super hard about making a post. The forum doesn't get enough activity to really justify going hard about uneeded posts. Especially with MMM gone.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:07:17 PM
1, how did you get this quote? Was this posted on the forum?
I could be wrong, but I think it's an email from MMM. It's not something a typical troll would bother to type out and give permission to share, which is another reason to think MMM could mature and come back someday.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:14:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 05:07:48 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 13, 2023, 01:28:12 PM
I think we are all in a state of shock. We thought this kid was just ridiculous and to hear he was someone else who trolled here before adds a new light on his identity.
Eh, I'm not. I even accidentally posted a reply to him once addressing him as "Mike" without thinking about it, before realizing what I did and going back to edit it out. I should have listened to whatever part of my brain made me do that, I guess.
I'm certainly shook. Wasn't on the forum when Mike was here, and I was actually talking to MMM like he was a real person just with crazy ideas, trying to take him seriously and help him understand. Now I know that he's just a troll.
When I was about five years older than you I came to the realization that there are some people that there's no point in trying to help understand anything, because they can't or don't want to. Trolls certainly fall in the "don't want to understand" category.
They generally do not pay attention is why you can't get through to them. It's like in real life when you walk into a room, then start talking to a person you know about something, then midway through your sentence that person starts another topic as if what you started to say was not heard. Generally that person was not paying attention at all while you were speaking. Though we tend to consider that person to be rude anyway.
Or the best one is when a person starts ranting and you feel they don't need to. So you try to break into their conversation and try to get their attention even to a point to yell "Fire!" but they keep ranting, they're the ones too that are not paying attention as well.
My mom was like that as it was hard to get her attention growing up as she was unresponsive to my concerns or too responsive where she would react to the first part of the sentence and immediately enter commentary. So I'm well too familiar with the MO.
Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny wasn't paying attention either during the plea scene when the judge had to threaten Vinny with contempt to get the simple guilty or not guilty response he was seeking. As Mr. Gambini was not focused on the moment, but instead thinking the whole situation could be remedied by convincing the judge that there was confusion in the interagation process and not to process his clients, he would not hear the plea request.
An acquaintance of mine was the same. He wanted to buy my house. He thought I wouldn't sell it to him, so he thought he has to convince me to sell to him. I tried to assure him that he didn't need to do that, and for him to make an offer to what he thought was fair. Instead he kept trying to convince me to sell despite my trying to get his attention that it was his if he had the right price in mind. Needless to say months later he brought up the moment and said to me " You should have sold your house to me." I then didn't say anything as if he wasn't paying attention then he wouldn't be now either.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 07:12:30 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 13, 2023, 07:11:37 PM
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the "posts must add to the discussion" rule is being enforced much, either.
That's very subjective and vauge a lot of the time.
Yeah, but numerous posts of just emoticons have been allowed since the rule came into force. Scott's initial post clearly mentions things like that.
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 13, 2023, 10:06:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 07:12:30 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 13, 2023, 07:11:37 PM
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the "posts must add to the discussion" rule is being enforced much, either.
That's very subjective and vauge a lot of the time.
Yeah, but numerous posts of just emoticons have been allowed since the rule came into force. Scott's initial post clearly mentions things like that.
Sometimes, a comment of just emoticons is an appropriate response to a comment or post.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
I was passing 32 so many times during the whole MMM fiasco as there was so much shit going on in those threads.
This. This is half the reason the trolling kept going on. Continuing to reply and fuel the fire because one thinks it's "funny" just makes it a nuisance for the rest of the forum.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 07:19:26 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 13, 2023, 07:16:44 PM
I personally think the 32 posts/day limit is too high, though I realize it was set at that value partly to preclude arguments that moderators enforce it arbitrarily. A lower limit should (at least in theory) encourage participants to pack more of a punch into each post and think twice about whether a given point needs to be responded to.
I disagree. I don't want the forum to be something where you have to think super hard about making a post. The forum doesn't get enough activity to really justify going hard about uneeded posts. Especially with MMM gone.
My ideal forum experience, and the goal I work toward in moderation, is to make this a place where one can go to learn more about roads, road signs, and geography from people around the country who are interested in discussing information about them. One generally cannot learn from a place where people are not willing to "think super hard about making a post".
If someone is not willing to "think super hard about making a post", perhaps they should leave the forum to those who are.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 10:08:19 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 13, 2023, 10:06:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 07:12:30 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 13, 2023, 07:11:37 PM
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the "posts must add to the discussion" rule is being enforced much, either.
That's very subjective and vauge a lot of the time.
Yeah, but numerous posts of just emoticons have been allowed since the rule came into force. Scott's initial post clearly mentions things like that.
Sometimes, a comment of just emoticons is an appropriate response to a comment or post.
No, it never is. Chances are if you see a post like that, it simply hasn't been deleted because I didn't see it (I don't check every subforum every day), or already addressed it by talking to the user privately.
Meh. I had a post responded to with just an emoticon by another user recently. I didn't consider it a big deal or even offensive in the slightest.
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 13, 2023, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
I was passing 32 so many times during the whole MMM fiasco as there was so much shit going on in those threads.
This. This is half the reason the trolling kept going on. Continuing to reply and fuel the fire because one thinks it’s “funny” just makes it a nuisance for the rest of the forum.
I proposed locking MMM's thread in off topic a long time before it was finally locked.
Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2023, 10:49:37 PM
Meh. I had a post responded to with just an emoticon by another user recently. I didn't consider it a big deal or even offensive in the slightest.
I think that there are situations where just responding with an emoticon is appropritate, but it is a very rare situation. Like if MMM made another sock puppet account and started spewing shit again I might respond with :banghead: or :-D. Not saying it should be common, but in very rare situations NE2 style humor can be funny.
Sometimes an emoticon can say a lot.
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 13, 2023, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
I was passing 32 so many times during the whole MMM fiasco as there was so much shit going on in those threads.
This. This is half the reason the trolling kept going on. Continuing to reply and fuel the fire because one thinks it's "funny" just makes it a nuisance for the rest of the forum.
Seems like it quickly goes from something funny to almost OCD-levels of engagement. From simple replies like "this must be a troll" to starting entire threads whose entire point is to "troll the troll", or continuously mentioning them even when said troll is not involved in the conversation. Whatever the case, it's just adding fuel to the fire. Trolls are only trolls because we acknowledge them and let them act that way, and we should really be ashamed of ourselves for even entertaining that kind of crap.
I've generally avoided the so-called trolls on here, people like MMM, FritzOwl, etc.. Of my admittedly ridiculous 15k+ posts, I doubt more than a dozen were direct replies to users who were either at the time or posthumously referred to as trolls. When a user's posts are of such outrageously low quality, to the point where it's ludicrous to even consider them legitimate replies, I really don't see the need to entertain an actual reply as it seems to just ensure further trolling. Or, if you absolutely have to respond, be as serious as possible. Trolls are usually looking for a certain kind of response, so just try to not give it to them.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 14, 2023, 12:48:50 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 13, 2023, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
I was passing 32 so many times during the whole MMM fiasco as there was so much shit going on in those threads.
This. This is half the reason the trolling kept going on. Continuing to reply and fuel the fire because one thinks it's "funny" just makes it a nuisance for the rest of the forum.
Seems like it quickly goes from something funny to almost OCD-levels of engagement. From simple replies like "this must be a troll" to starting entire threads whose entire point is to "troll the troll", or continuously mentioning them even when said troll is not involved in the conversation. Whatever the case, it's just adding fuel to the fire. Trolls are only trolls because we acknowledge them and let them act that way, and we should really be ashamed of ourselves for even entertaining that kind of crap.
I've generally avoided the so-called trolls on here, people like MMM, FritzOwl, etc.. Of my admittedly ridiculous 15k+ posts, I doubt more than a dozen were direct replies to users who were either at the time or posthumously referred to as trolls. When a user's posts are of such outrageously low quality, to the point where it's ludicrous to even consider them legitimate replies, I really don't see the need to entertain an actual reply as it seems to just ensure further trolling. Or, if you absolutely have to respond, be as serious as possible. Trolls are usually looking for a certain kind of response, so just try to not give it to them.
I do actually think some people enjoy arguing with trolls and making them mad/making fun of them. For me, it's like how someone trying to quit smoking still wants to smoke- I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. There are several examples of trolls turing into non-trolls, but those instances are rare.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 14, 2023, 12:48:50 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 13, 2023, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
I was passing 32 so many times during the whole MMM fiasco as there was so much shit going on in those threads.
This. This is half the reason the trolling kept going on. Continuing to reply and fuel the fire because one thinks it's "funny" just makes it a nuisance for the rest of the forum.
Seems like it quickly goes from something funny to almost OCD-levels of engagement. From simple replies like "this must be a troll" to starting entire threads whose entire point is to "troll the troll", or continuously mentioning them even when said troll is not involved in the conversation. Whatever the case, it's just adding fuel to the fire. Trolls are only trolls because we acknowledge them and let them act that way, and we should really be ashamed of ourselves for even entertaining that kind of crap.
I've generally avoided the so-called trolls on here, people like MMM, FritzOwl, etc.. Of my admittedly ridiculous 15k+ posts, I doubt more than a dozen were direct replies to users who were either at the time or posthumously referred to as trolls. When a user's posts are of such outrageously low quality, to the point where it's ludicrous to even consider them legitimate replies, I really don't see the need to entertain an actual reply as it seems to just ensure further trolling. Or, if you absolutely have to respond, be as serious as possible. Trolls are usually looking for a certain kind of response, so just try to not give it to them.
I do actually think some people enjoy arguing with trolls and making them mad/making fun of them. For me, it's like how someone trying to quit smoking still wants to smoke- I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. There are several examples of trolls turing into non-trolls, but those instances are rare.
But realistically, we cannot have it both ways. Either we encourage trolling, or we discourage trolling. Everytime we respond to a troll, we make them into a bigger deal than they ever need to be and embolden them to persist in their efforts.
In fairness, you've been rather transparent about your approach with trolls, so I cannot call you out for being hypocritical. However, I would politely ask that you consider how your choices affect the rest of us who are not as keen on trolls.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deny_recognition may have some useful insight.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 14, 2023, 12:48:50 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 13, 2023, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
I was passing 32 so many times during the whole MMM fiasco as there was so much shit going on in those threads.
This. This is half the reason the trolling kept going on. Continuing to reply and fuel the fire because one thinks it's "funny" just makes it a nuisance for the rest of the forum.
Seems like it quickly goes from something funny to almost OCD-levels of engagement. From simple replies like "this must be a troll" to starting entire threads whose entire point is to "troll the troll", or continuously mentioning them even when said troll is not involved in the conversation. Whatever the case, it's just adding fuel to the fire. Trolls are only trolls because we acknowledge them and let them act that way, and we should really be ashamed of ourselves for even entertaining that kind of crap.
I've generally avoided the so-called trolls on here, people like MMM, FritzOwl, etc.. Of my admittedly ridiculous 15k+ posts, I doubt more than a dozen were direct replies to users who were either at the time or posthumously referred to as trolls. When a user's posts are of such outrageously low quality, to the point where it's ludicrous to even consider them legitimate replies, I really don't see the need to entertain an actual reply as it seems to just ensure further trolling. Or, if you absolutely have to respond, be as serious as possible. Trolls are usually looking for a certain kind of response, so just try to not give it to them.
I do actually think some people enjoy arguing with trolls and making them mad/making fun of them. For me, it's like how someone trying to quit smoking still wants to smoke- I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. There are several examples of trolls turing into non-trolls, but those instances are rare.
But why do you have the desire to do it in the first place? The same thing with the constant posting near the end basically trashing him... you may think it's helping but it's not. Simply ignoring the thread / posts altogether will make it move past much faster, and be far less disruptive for everyone on the forum.
Every time you reply, he'll reply with something. Then you'll feel the need to reply. Then he will. Then it's a cycle that you said has made you have over 32 posts in a single day alone.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 04:09:03 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deny_recognition may have some useful insight.
Agreed:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deny_recognition
Denying recognition and infamy neutralizes common primary motivators for vandalism and disruption.
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 14, 2023, 06:00:06 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 14, 2023, 12:48:50 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 13, 2023, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:47:17 PM
I was passing 32 so many times during the whole MMM fiasco as there was so much shit going on in those threads.
This. This is half the reason the trolling kept going on. Continuing to reply and fuel the fire because one thinks it's "funny" just makes it a nuisance for the rest of the forum.
Seems like it quickly goes from something funny to almost OCD-levels of engagement. From simple replies like "this must be a troll" to starting entire threads whose entire point is to "troll the troll", or continuously mentioning them even when said troll is not involved in the conversation. Whatever the case, it's just adding fuel to the fire. Trolls are only trolls because we acknowledge them and let them act that way, and we should really be ashamed of ourselves for even entertaining that kind of crap.
I've generally avoided the so-called trolls on here, people like MMM, FritzOwl, etc.. Of my admittedly ridiculous 15k+ posts, I doubt more than a dozen were direct replies to users who were either at the time or posthumously referred to as trolls. When a user's posts are of such outrageously low quality, to the point where it's ludicrous to even consider them legitimate replies, I really don't see the need to entertain an actual reply as it seems to just ensure further trolling. Or, if you absolutely have to respond, be as serious as possible. Trolls are usually looking for a certain kind of response, so just try to not give it to them.
I do actually think some people enjoy arguing with trolls and making them mad/making fun of them. For me, it's like how someone trying to quit smoking still wants to smoke- I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. There are several examples of trolls turing into non-trolls, but those instances are rare.
But why do you have the desire to do it in the first place? The same thing with the constant posting near the end basically trashing him... you may think it's helping but it's not. Simply ignoring the thread / posts altogether will make it move past much faster, and be far less disruptive for everyone on the forum.
Every time you reply, he'll reply with something. Then you'll feel the need to reply. Then he will. Then it's a cycle that you said has made you have over 32 posts in a single day alone.
That's exactly what my OP was. To point out that we ourselves are the cause of MMM rising to his elevated state by responding to his ideas. As he would rebut all the time we respond to him and then over we respond to his rebuttals and then repeat and again.
We should have ignored him and maybe he would have left from lack of attention.
I'm reminded of game theory experiments in which I've participated where someone always cheats the group's decision with the adequate incentive.
Someone will always engage the troll out of some personal and emotional benefit, probably thinking they're bringing some positive attention to themselves.
...
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
I'm reminded of game theory experiments in which I've participated where someone always cheats the group's decision with the adequate incentive.
Someone will always engage the troll out of some personal and emotional benefit, probably thinking they're bringing some positive attention to themselves.
...
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
At least NE2 didn’t get into it. When the Diesel mechanic trolled a few years ago, him and that troll got very heated when Alex had to get involved to delete their very heated argument.
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
I'm reminded of game theory experiments in which I've participated where someone always cheats the group's decision with the adequate incentive.
Someone will always engage the troll out of some personal and emotional benefit, probably thinking they're bringing some positive attention to themselves.
...
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
And today's snow storm is caused by DST as well!
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
.... I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. ....
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/0d1d3d98d4e5655ebe32e82fa2bf9eaa.jpg)
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 14, 2023, 07:41:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
…. I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. ….
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/0d1d3d98d4e5655ebe32e82fa2bf9eaa.jpg)
Funny.
I can name a few on here that are obsessed with correcting peoples mistakes like the user who taught you the correct way to spell Costco Wholesale when you accidentally misspelled it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 14, 2023, 07:41:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
.... I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. ....
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/0d1d3d98d4e5655ebe32e82fa2bf9eaa.jpg)
Duty calls.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 10:44:11 PM
No, it never is. Chances are if you see a post like that, it simply hasn't been deleted because I didn't see it (I don't check every subforum every day), or already addressed it by talking to the user privately.
Does the paragraph symbol count in the emoticon-ish world? Asking for a friend...
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on March 14, 2023, 08:08:49 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 14, 2023, 07:41:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
.... I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. ....
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/0d1d3d98d4e5655ebe32e82fa2bf9eaa.jpg)
Duty calls.
That reminds me of a time in 8th Grade back in spring of 2014 where I was on my phone in class instead of listening to the lecture (something I shamefully admit I did most days in most classes that year, as that was a year that I had senioritis by far more than any other). I did different things on my phone in class different days, sometimes it was playing games, sometimes it was actually looking at Google Maps or even street view on said platform; I was not aware of the existence of this forum yet (I would find out and join just a few short months later in July 2014), but if I had been I guarantee I would be browsing it as well on my phone. But to the point, the stupidest thing by far that I did on my phone in class was arguing with people on the internet. It was stupid, it was pointless, and I was only 14 so I didn't know enough shit to be arguing about most things with someone on the internet anyway.
But this post sparked that memory in my head because when I was doing that I felt the sense of "duty" and that I had a noble cause that was worth not paying attention in class for, because I was "correcting people on the internet." I finally stopped doing that in class after that year, but I still made the mistake of continuously arguing with people on the internet all the time for the next few years, until I finally just got sick of it and realized how much of a waste of time and energy it truly was. When I look back and ponder on what activities I had engaged in that were the truest waste of time spent in my life that I can't get back, arguing with trolls on the internet is right near the top. And this was usually in places like comment sections (such as on YouTube), which have less substance anyway compared to places like an organized and meaningful forum such as this one. To that end, I would much rather respond to MMM on here than ever go back and waste the hours I did back then for years responding to mindless comments on YouTube, and often typing mindless comments of my own. But the same logic still applies, which is why everyone here has a very good point about not feeding the trolls and over-responding to them.
I haven't been as active on the forum lately, as I have been busier in life (but in a good way, as I have a girlfriend who lives in the United Kingdom who I began dating a few months ago; I have not traveled to see her yet, but hope to at some point). But I have read a lot of posts and watched almost the entire MMM fiasco unfold (and I did myself respond sporadically a couple of times), and it was indeed quite a ride. Although it has been completely revealed at this point that it was indeed trolling without a trace of a doubt, some of those ideas truly were some of the most bizarre and insane ideas I have heard in my entire life. Because of this, I can see why it was so tempting to continually respond as it's impossible to not notice such absurd remarks -- but then again since he was trolling that is probably why he did it, as to some extent I suppose we are all victims to human psychology, myself included. As such, some of the ideas honestly had me laughing non-stop for ten or even more minutes due to the true absurdity and utter hilariousness of them; some of the biggest kickers for me were the whole I-80/I-90 issue, also including the water and plane routings, and just the whole premise of the interstate shield balloons always got me. Also the grappling hook helicopters, comments on tornadoes, Star Trek, and other things contributed to some huge belly laughs as well. Honestly it was so many different things at this point I can't even remember it all, but it's not like I need to.
I suppose to that end we have some hilarious memes going forward along the likes of Alanland, the Hypotenuse, Ethanman, and more, which is at least one positive out of the whole ordeal. But hopefully this will not happen again as it was indeed disruptive to the overall status quo of the forum, and there is just no use for trolls. It sounds like he has stated he doesn't (or supposedly doesn't) plan to make a fourth account, but we all know how trolls are so we must definitely keep a watch out if he does attempt this again, but I'm sure it would not be too easy (or likely impossible) to succeed again as he created a situation so huge and notorious he has probably sealed his fate on the forum for good this time.
Did we get any memes out of MMM? Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 14, 2023, 10:17:58 AM
Did we get any memes out of MMM? Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.
helicopter hooks?
Shortcut through lake michigan?
Fake interstate?
Quote from: kalvado on March 14, 2023, 10:22:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 14, 2023, 10:17:58 AM
Did we get any memes out of MMM? Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.
helicopter hooks?
Shortcut through lake michigan?
Fake interstate?
Nut rate
Star Trek
Prime numbers
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 14, 2023, 10:17:58 AM
Did we get any memes out of MMM? Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.
This is definitely the one that will stick with me - just now while writing a post about the Capital Beltway's windy portion along Rock Creek in Montgomery County, I thought about this in the back of my head. If he had picked this segment to base his "flip-your-car curves" argument around, I might have taken him halfway seriously since truck rollovers do occur there occasionally.
I-80 superiority and tolling a short stretch of the northern NJTP at the same rate as the entire road while de-tolling it everywhere else also come to mind.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 14, 2023, 10:43:00 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 14, 2023, 10:22:37 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 14, 2023, 10:17:58 AM
Did we get any memes out of MMM? Dangerous PA Turnpike curves might be the closest thing he was constantly on about.
helicopter hooks?
Shortcut through lake michigan?
Fake interstate?
Nut rate
Star Trek
Prime numbers
People laughing at I-80 and 90 in IN and OH
Tunnel under Rockies
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:13:57 PM
The thing is, he did not explicitly break any rules. He was annoying, but being annoying isn't against the rules.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 06:17:49 PM
Right, that's kind of the key problem here. I don't want us to get to the point where someone can get moderated for having a stupid opinion. (If we did, I'd probably have to ban myself.) And we do need a clear rule we can point to when someone says "Why am I banned?"
Why? I understand wanting to be fair and ethical, but limiting yourselves to a list of discrete rules isn't the same thing as being fair and ethical. That is to say, it is perfectly possible to be fair and ethical while banning a troll who hasn't technically broken any rules. This isn't a court of law: it's an internet forum, and common sense can carry the day just as easily as technicalities.
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere
close to the worst version of an internet troll.
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.
What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?
Quote from: kalvado on March 14, 2023, 07:30:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
And today's snow storm is caused by DST as well!
I just heard about a much smaller disaster that was caused by DST.
Mexico just passed a law in November that eliminated DST except in the border zone, which continues to observe the same schedule as in the USA. Apparently, last fall was the last time most of Mexico will change their clocks. I did not know this. Our friends who live in Mexico did not know this. They just drove back down from Kansas last week, arriving in Mexico late Thursday evening.
There are three kids they know whose family doesn't take care of them, so our friends have sort of taken them under their wing to some extent. Because Adam was feeling sick this morning, his wife left dark and early to go pick one of those children up for school. She asked why Hannah was showing up so early in the morning, so she explained DST to her, and how she was actually arriving on time. She understood and got in the car with Hannah. They drove by a Catholic school and noticed that nobody was there yet, so she started doubting herself. She stopped and asked a police officer, who replied that it was only 5:40 AM. So this poor girl made it to school on time, but she missed an hour of sleep. All because Adam's cell phone updated to DST on Sunday, even though they live in a country that no longer observes DST.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 11:55:05 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.
What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?
Being a registered Republican?
Seriously, though. Racism, sexism, and other isms aren't
trolling. They are either clear violations of forum rules or only require a simple message from a mod to correct.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:59:20 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 14, 2023, 07:30:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
And today's snow storm is caused by DST as well!
I just heard about a much smaller disaster that was caused by DST.
Mexico just passed a law in November that eliminated DST except in the border zone, which continues to observe the same schedule as in the USA. Apparently, last fall was the last time most of Mexico will change their clocks. I did not know this. Our friends who live in Mexico did not know this. They just drove back down from Kansas last week, arriving in Mexico late Thursday evening.
There are three kids they know whose family doesn't take care of them, so our friends have sort of taken them under their wing to some extent. Because Adam was feeling sick this morning, his wife left dark and early to go pick one of those children up for school. She asked why Hannah was showing up so early in the morning, so she explained DST to her, and how she was actually arriving on time. She understood and got in the car with Hannah. They drove by a Catholic school and noticed that nobody was there yet, so she started doubting herself. She stopped and asked a police officer, who replied that it was only 5:40 AM. So this poor girl made it to school on time, but she missed an hour of sleep. All because Adam's cell phone updated to DST on Sunday, even though they live in a country that no longer observes DST.
When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 12:00:35 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 11:55:05 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.
What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?
Being a registered Republican?
Seriously, though. Racism, sexism, and other isms aren't trolling. They are either clear violations of forum rules or only require a simple message from a mod to correct.
There are plenty of registered Republicans I like just fine. I would argue that you can troll with racism, sexism, and other isms however. Dropping an n-word isn't inherently trolling. Continuing to do it when called on it is.
In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.
MMM did shine primarily because he was well fed. I hate to point fingers, but someone with nickname starting with R seemed the most avid feeder.
Well fed MMM's fur would be an invaluable asset to whoever gets it!
The one who tried to get MMM contained to one thread you mean.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2023, 12:03:07 PM
In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.
Would that be the earliest time within US in winters?
Quote from: kalvado on March 14, 2023, 12:07:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2023, 12:03:07 PM
In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.
Would that be the earliest time within US in winters?
I guess so. I'm not sure.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2023, 12:06:44 PM
The one who tried to get MMM contained to one thread you mean.
Given that I was successful with FritzOwl, that particular action wasn't a bad idea. However, he was one of the primary arguers.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2023, 12:03:07 PM
In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.
I don't understand why a state on the western edge of the time zone is trying to do this.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:01:44 PM
When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.
This is actually of particular concern to me. This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving. Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there. On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time. If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.
I guess I'd better look into this...
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 12:17:58 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:01:44 PM
When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.
This is actually of particular concern to me. This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving. Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there. On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time. If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.
I guess I'd better look into this...
I'm guessing, especially since AA flies to many destinations in Mexico, that they'll be a little more aware of the situation than they were of Haiti, a place they flew to two locations. Also, they have a lot more notice in your case.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 12:17:58 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:01:44 PM
When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.
This is actually of particular concern to me. This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving. Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there. On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time. If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.
I guess I'd better look into this...
I'm guessing, especially since AA flies to many destinations in Mexico, that they'll be a little more aware of the situation than they were of Haiti, a place they flew to two locations. Also, they have a lot more notice in your case.
I wonder how long it took to correct Haiti error. Basically first day of DST would bring enough complains from pax and employees alike to correct things. Already sold tickets would still show wrong times, but e-mails can go out.
Quote from: 1 on March 14, 2023, 12:17:43 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2023, 12:06:44 PM
The one who tried to get MMM contained to one thread you mean.
Given that I was successful with FritzOwl, that particular action wasn't a bad idea. However, he was one of the primary arguers.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2023, 12:03:07 PM
In Florida we voted to keep DST year round, but the feds don't want it despite AZ and HI keeping their clocks the same year round.
I don't understand why a state on the western edge of the time zone is trying to do this.
We like our late sunsets. Go to the Panhandle and it's annoying to see the sun set at 7:30 in July.
No we are not the farthest west. The Western UP of Michigan is. Plus in Cincinnati I saw the Summer skies still lit up near 10 PM.
Quote from: kalvado on March 14, 2023, 12:25:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 12:17:58 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:01:44 PM
When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.
This is actually of particular concern to me. This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving. Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there. On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time. If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.
I guess I'd better look into this...
I'm guessing, especially since AA flies to many destinations in Mexico, that they'll be a little more aware of the situation than they were of Haiti, a place they flew to two locations. Also, they have a lot more notice in your case.
I wonder how long it took to correct Haiti error. Basically first day of DST would bring enough complains from pax and employees alike to correct things. Already sold tickets would still show wrong times, but e-mails can go out.
At least it was the right direction and people weren't late because of the issue. I spent way too much time on AA Twitter trying to get to the bottom of it prior to the flight and no one there had a clue. That's why it behooved us to just get there early in case.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2023, 12:26:22 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 14, 2023, 12:17:43 PM
I don't understand why a state on the western edge of the time zone is trying to do this.
We like our late sunsets. Go to the Panhandle and it's annoying to see the sun set at 7:30 in July.
Permanent DST doesn't even affect the time in July.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 12:17:58 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:01:44 PM
When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.
This is actually of particular concern to me. This summer, I'm taking a group trip in which some people are flying to Mexico and others are driving. Those of us who are driving will be staying the night north of the border, then meeting the others at the Monterrey airport, then driving 170 miles west from there. On the return trip, their flight is scheduled to depart at 10 AM, which means we'll need to leave town at like 5 AM in order to get them to the airport on time. If United Airlines erroneously thinks Mexico will be on DST, then that might not only affect what time we need to leave in the morning, but it also might affect their connection in Houston.
I guess I'd better look into this...
I'm guessing, especially since AA flies to many destinations in Mexico, that they'll be a little more aware of the situation than they were of Haiti, a place they flew to two locations. Also, they have a lot more notice in your case.
So, I just checked. Flights were booked on February 27, and the flight times on Travelocity as seen today match up to the minute. I also did the math, and it's clear that United Airlines has correctly taken into account the elimination of DST in Mexico. Wichita, Houston, and Monterrey are all in the same time zone, yet IAH→MTY arrives just 34 minutes after departure, whereas MTY→IAH arrives 2 hours 28 minutes after departure. Clearly, each flight takes 1½ hours, but they're accounting for the difference between CDT and CST.
Whew!
Now I just need to correct my driving itinerary. Unless my head is on backwards, I believe this means that, instead of getting to the airport an hour after they touch down, we'll actually get there on time. Yay!
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 04:09:03 AMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deny_recognition may have some useful insight.
Another Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_be_a_giant_dick,_so_we_can_ban_you) explains the problems moderators face in handling trolls (or other problem users) who maintain surface compliance with the rules.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AMWhy? I understand wanting to be fair and ethical, but limiting yourselves to a list of discrete rules isn't the same thing as being fair and ethical. That is to say, it is perfectly possible to be fair and ethical while banning a troll who hasn't technically broken any rules. This isn't a court of law: it's an internet forum, and common sense can carry the day just as easily as technicalities.
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
It was certainly conceptually possible to ban MMM on that basis. It wouldn't even have been necessary to say something asshole-ish like "Because you were an asshole"--a formulation like "In our judgment, your posts fail to contribute to comity on the forum" would have sufficed. But how many members would be comfortable with us running the forum in that way? For better or for worse, the rules have evolved into an indirect mechanism for holding moderators to account.
Quote from: 1 on March 14, 2023, 12:32:22 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2023, 12:26:22 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 14, 2023, 12:17:43 PM
I don't understand why a state on the western edge of the time zone is trying to do this.
We like our late sunsets. Go to the Panhandle and it's annoying to see the sun set at 7:30 in July.
Permanent DST doesn't even affect the time in July.
Overall this is not about "western edge", this is about "too far south". Dst works for certain band of longitude. Too far south and there is too little change from summer to winter. Too far north, and it's a polar day or night anyway.
There is something oddly poetic about this thread about trolls turning into another classic DST thread.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2023, 12:50:34 PM
It wouldn't even have been necessary to say something asshole-ish like "Because you were an asshole"--a formulation like "In our judgment, your posts fail to contribute to comity on the forum" would have sufficed.
Or just not even respond at all.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2023, 12:50:34 PM
But how many members would be comfortable with us running the forum in that way?
In general, I doubt most of us would be OK with that as a general m.o. However, I don't see that as precluding non-standard emergency action.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2023, 12:50:34 PM
For better or for worse, the rules have evolved into an indirect mechanism for holding moderators to account.
But it's a set of rules that is created and edited by the moderators, is it not? When moderators perceived a problem with discussion of sexuality and gender identity, the solution was to add a rule. When moderators perceived a problem with excessive posting, the solution was to add a rule. The forum guidelines are hardly a mechanism for holding moderators to account, when the moderators can change the forum guidelines–at least any more than the community of moderators already hold each other to account as it is. I don't see a substantive difference between these two scenarios:
1. Perceived problem arises, moderators discuss, moderator consensus is reached that adding a new forum guideline is appropriate, new rule is added, forum member continues in problematic behavior, member is warned by moderators, member persists, ban is issued
2. Perceived problem arises, moderators discuss, no new rule is added, member is warned my moderators, member persists, ban is issued
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2023, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 04:09:03 AMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deny_recognition may have some useful insight.
Another Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_be_a_giant_dick,_so_we_can_ban_you) explains the problems moderators face in handling trolls (or other problem users) who maintain surface compliance with the rules.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AMWhy? I understand wanting to be fair and ethical, but limiting yourselves to a list of discrete rules isn't the same thing as being fair and ethical. That is to say, it is perfectly possible to be fair and ethical while banning a troll who hasn't technically broken any rules. This isn't a court of law: it's an internet forum, and common sense can carry the day just as easily as technicalities.
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
It was certainly conceptually possible to ban MMM on that basis. It wouldn't even have been necessary to say something asshole-ish like "Because you were an asshole"--a formulation like "In our judgment, your posts fail to contribute to comity on the forum" would have sufficed. But how many members would be comfortable with us running the forum in that way? For better or for worse, the rules have evolved into an indirect mechanism for holding moderators to account.
In a grand scheme of things, this is why 3 branches of power do exist. Not that having so much bureaucracy is a good idea for small forum, yet general rules vs actual implementation vs conflict arbitration is what you are talking about.
Pure IMHO, but I don't feel the ban on "asshole" basis would be seen as capricious given many people were asking for that. I am the minority, who thinks ban wasn't needed, but I still agree that popular vote went that way.
Again, as a pure IMHO, using rarely enforced rules - be it "you're talking crap, but that's not the ban reason" or "You're driving 5 MPH over, and I suspect you have drugs in your car - so everyone else may drive +15, but not you" are not the way to earn reputation of unbiased enforcer. Pure IMHO, again.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 14, 2023, 07:41:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
.... I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. ....
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/0d1d3d98d4e5655ebe32e82fa2bf9eaa.jpg)
This one has always hit home for me. I have an almost allergic reaction to untruths and falsehoods. It gets under my skin to see blatant lies repeated as gospel, and it takes a great deal of willpower not to correct each instance I see. There's a particular one that's centered on Kentucky that occasionally floats to the surface, and it really irks me to see it.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 14, 2023, 01:52:07 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 14, 2023, 07:41:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
.... I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. ....
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/0d1d3d98d4e5655ebe32e82fa2bf9eaa.jpg)
This one has always hit home for me. I have an almost allergic reaction to untruths and falsehoods. It gets under my skin to see blatant lies repeated as gospel, and it takes a great deal of willpower not to correct each instance I see. There's a particular one that's centered on Kentucky that occasionally floats to the surface, and it really irks me to see it.
And yet, everyone is suckered in by a lie and thinking it is truth every now and then...
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 11:55:05 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.
What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?
Most other trolls
on this forum have been much worse. Stating their ideas/beliefs as fact and forcing them on others, constant use of profanity, personal attacks on other users, etc. etc. MMM was highly annoying and posted questionable content at best, but I don't think his intentions were as malicious as your typical troll. The fact that he lasted for almost six months speaks to that, as the type of behaviors mentioned above would have led to a ban immediately or within days at most.
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 02:16:00 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 14, 2023, 01:52:07 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 14, 2023, 07:41:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
.... I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. ....
[ image ]
This one has always hit home for me. I have an almost allergic reaction to untruths and falsehoods. It gets under my skin to see blatant lies repeated as gospel, and it takes a great deal of willpower not to correct each instance I see. There's a particular one that's centered on Kentucky that occasionally floats to the surface, and it really irks me to see it.
And yet, everyone is suckered in by a lie and thinking it is truth every now and then...
There are four kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, statistics, and The Truth.
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 11:55:05 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.
What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?
Most other trolls on this forum have been much worse. Stating their ideas/beliefs as fact and forcing them on others, constant use of profanity, personal attacks on other users, etc. etc. MMM was highly annoying and posted questionable content at best, but I don't think his intentions were as malicious as your typical troll. The fact that he lasted for almost six months speaks to that, as the type of behaviors mentioned above would have led to a ban immediately or within days at most.
Or maybe MMM being able to stay on the forum for 6 months make him a
good troll?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 06:43:08 PM
We also don't have any sort of automatic alert system that tells us that someone has gone over 32 posts, so if one of us is going to your posts page and counting your posts to begin with, it means that we already feel like your posting is low-quality enough that the rule may need to be enforced. (And if we think you're making constructive posts that add value to the forum, then we have no reason to check how many posts you've made in the last 24 hours.)
Interestingly, while checking how many posts MMM had made in a single day earlier in this very thread, I realized that it's actually quite easy to calculate. In each user profile under "Show posts", there's a large count displayed above each post that starts at 1 for your most recent post, so it's only a matter of finding the last post with the bolded "
Today" in the timestamp, and the number above that post is your answer. I was simultaneously impressed at how easy it was and disappointed that it took me six years to figure that out.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:34:16 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 02:27:31 PM
Most other trolls on this forum have been much worse. Stating their ideas/beliefs as fact and forcing them on others, constant use of profanity, personal attacks on other users, etc. etc. MMM was highly annoying and posted questionable content at best, but I don't think his intentions were as malicious as your typical troll. The fact that he lasted for almost six months speaks to that, as the type of behaviors mentioned above would have led to a ban immediately or within days at most.
Or maybe MMM being able to stay on the forum for 6 months make him a good troll?
That's what I was thinking. Being less obvious at one's trolling doesn't make it better. It just means you're able to rope more people into your scheme.
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 02:40:12 PM
Interestingly, while checking how many posts MMM had made in a single day earlier in this very thread, I realized that it's actually quite easy to calculate. In each user profile under "Show posts", there's a large count displayed above each post that starts at 1 for your most recent post, so it's only a matter of finding the last post with the bolded "Today" in the timestamp, and the number above that post is your answer. I was simultaneously impressed at how easy it was and disappointed that it took me six years to figure that out.
OK, I just tested this out to confirm, and it does not count deleted posts. That is to say, you still can't tell how many posts someone
made that day–just how many of his posts
remain from that day.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 02:44:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:34:16 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 02:27:31 PM
Most other trolls on this forum have been much worse. Stating their ideas/beliefs as fact and forcing them on others, constant use of profanity, personal attacks on other users, etc. etc. MMM was highly annoying and posted questionable content at best, but I don't think his intentions were as malicious as your typical troll. The fact that he lasted for almost six months speaks to that, as the type of behaviors mentioned above would have led to a ban immediately or within days at most.
Or maybe MMM being able to stay on the forum for 6 months make him a good troll?
That's what I was thinking. Being less obvious at one's trolling doesn't make it better. It just means you're able to rope more people into your scheme.
There are different types of trolling. And of course there is a universally hated first amendment (yes, it doesn't apply to privately owned and maintained forum by the letter).
MMM gambled on inability of people to disagree with others while still letting them speak; inability to hold the spirit of the first amendment if you will. I can certainly understand that people would be uncomfortable with something that can harm them personally one way or the other, like in political discussion. MMM's opinions were totally harmless in that sense - no insult, no offense, no -ism's, lots of poker face.
Tl; dr: MMM was an enjoyable show while he lasted.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 02:44:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:34:16 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 02:27:31 PM
Most other trolls on this forum have been much worse. Stating their ideas/beliefs as fact and forcing them on others, constant use of profanity, personal attacks on other users, etc. etc. MMM was highly annoying and posted questionable content at best, but I don't think his intentions were as malicious as your typical troll. The fact that he lasted for almost six months speaks to that, as the type of behaviors mentioned above would have led to a ban immediately or within days at most.
Or maybe MMM being able to stay on the forum for 6 months make him a good troll?
That's what I was thinking. Being less obvious at one's trolling doesn't make it better. It just means you're able to rope more people into your scheme.
Then it goes back to the question of intent. Are they actually
trying to rope anyone into any sort of scheme? What did the scheme involve, and what was the end game? From what I know of MMM, I'm not sure there was anything that deep going on with him.
But even if there was, if the trolling is subtle enough that it's not noticeably impacting the forum (as was the case for the first few months of MMM's activity), does it even matter? Plenty of long time users - me included - have engaged in subtle or borderline forms of trolling at times, possibly even subconsciously, without consequence. It was only when MMM's posts became incessant in nature and started consuming threads all across the forum that it eventually caught up with him, but I don't think that was necessarily something he had planned from the get-go.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:01:44 PM
When I flew from Cap Haitien to Miami, we got to the airport an hour earlier than we needed to since the President of Haiti had eliminated DST a couple weeks prior but American Airlines was unaware of the fact and had the schedule wrong because of it.
I had an interesting situation back in December 2001. I had planned a trip with my dad to the Copper Canyon, in southern Chihuahua. Day 1 was basically traveling all day: fly Wichita → Dallas—Fort Worth → El Paso, cross the border by taxi, bus Cd Juárez → Cd Chihuahua, bus Cd Chihuahua → Creel. So two flights, one border crossing including paperwork, and two bus rides totaling 400 miles. The lodging I had planned didn't accept reservations, but they told me over the phone that rooms are usually available. When we arrived in Cd Juárez, I learned that the entire state of Chihuahua had switched from Central to Mountain time zone back in 1998. Rand McNally apparently never got the memo.
Fortunately, this worked out in our favor, giving us an extra hour of travel, rather than stealing one hour of travel. We arrived at around 11 PM, and there were no rooms, so we stayed in the shared hostel area instead. One lady even gave up her bed and slept on the floor, so my dad would have a bed.
On the return trip, we had a schedule that was tighter by one hour than I had planned. But it worked out anyway, because we ended up on a direct bus and didn't have to transfer in Cd Chihuahua. We still got to the hotel in Cd Juárez after dark, though.
Quote from: 1 on March 12, 2023, 01:47:27 PM
I have received an email from him. Key points:
[...]
Most of the topics were trolling ...
Quote from: 1 on March 12, 2023, 02:13:38 PM
MMM explicitly said in his email to me that I can post what he said in his email here.
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 03:12:30 PM
Are they actually trying to rope anyone into any sort of scheme? What did the scheme involve, and what was the end game? From what I know of MMM, I'm not sure there was anything that deep going on with him.
Oh, he was trolling. He said so.
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 03:12:30 PM
But even if there was, if the trolling is subtle enough that it's not noticeably impacting the forum (as was the case for the first few months of MMM's activity), does it even matter? Plenty of long time users - me included - have engaged in subtle or borderline forms of trolling at times, possibly even subconsciously, without consequence. It was only when MMM's posts became incessant in nature and started consuming threads all across the forum that it eventually caught up with him, but I don't think that was necessarily something he had planned from the get-go.
Considering the list of topics he specifically said were troll topics, I'd say the scheme started really early on here.
But the one thing an actual troll would never do is publicly admit that they were trolling. To me that just means that, if he really was trying to be a troll, he was pretty bad at it. But even despite being a "subtle" troll, he ended up getting banned anyways, so he kind of got the worst of both worlds, except that he got to spend 6 months using the forum.
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 04:00:24 PM
But the one thing an actual troll would never do is publicly admit that they were trolling.
But he only did so
after his ban.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 04:00:24 PM
But the one thing an actual troll would never do is publicly admit that they were trolling.
But he only did so after his ban.
Another thing a troll would never do: interact with users from a forum he's just been banned from.
An actual troll would be focused on making a return or trolling somewhere else.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 02:50:38 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 02:40:12 PM
Interestingly, while checking how many posts MMM had made in a single day earlier in this very thread, I realized that it's actually quite easy to calculate. In each user profile under "Show posts", there's a large count displayed above each post that starts at 1 for your most recent post, so it's only a matter of finding the last post with the bolded "Today" in the timestamp, and the number above that post is your answer. I was simultaneously impressed at how easy it was and disappointed that it took me six years to figure that out.
OK, I just tested this out to confirm, and it does not count deleted posts. That is to say, you still can't tell how many posts someone made that day–just how many of his posts remain from that day.
Most people don't delete tons of posts. MMM is one of the exceptions.
The Venn diagram overlap is substantial, between people who delete a bunch of posts and people whose daily post count anybody cares enough about to actually look up.
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
I can only thank the Universe for the information that led to MMM's ban coming to light before we all had to suffer the indignity of whatever his opinions on daylight savings time were.
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
Why? I understand wanting to be fair and ethical, but limiting yourselves to a list of discrete rules isn't the same thing as being fair and ethical. That is to say, it is perfectly possible to be fair and ethical while banning a troll who hasn't technically broken any rules. This isn't a court of law: it's an internet forum, and common sense can carry the day just as easily as technicalities.
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
(I wrote this before reading J.N. Winkler's response, so some of this may be duplicative and/or already addressed in your response to him)
You're right, and in some situations, invoking plenary powers to perform a ban as discretion applies is probably justified. The problem, though, is that without a clear set of guidelines saying what an 'asshole' is, we risk allowing ourselves to identify anyone who is being a minor irritant as an 'asshole' and banning them. Basically, it would be a tool that might become too tempting to overuse, absolute power corrupting absolutely and all. That wouldn't be fair, and would arguably make the forum a worse place than it would be if we merely had to suffer a troll every now and then.
If the community feels like you have the right of it more than I do, however, and there's enough trust in the staff that they'd be okay with us having easier access to the banhammer in extraordinary cases, I can certainly be convinced that I'm overthinking it.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 12:00:35 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 14, 2023, 11:55:05 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
See, I'm not sure I would even go that far. Maybe I'm giving MMM too much credit, but I don't think he was anywhere close to the worst version of an internet troll.
What, pray tell, outside of blatant racism, sexism, or some other ism, would be worse? Just posting pictures of dead puppies or something?
Being a registered Republican?
Seriously, though. Racism, sexism, and other isms aren't trolling. They are either clear violations of forum rules or only require a simple message from a mod to correct.
There are plenty of registered Republicans I like just fine. I would argue that you can troll with racism, sexism, and other isms however. Dropping an n-word isn't inherently trolling. Continuing to do it when called on it is.
And we do have rules against racism, sexism, and such. Dropping the N-word would probably be the fastest way to get cashiered from the forum, since nobody can plausibly claim they thought it would be okay–it's not anywhere else, so why would it be here?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 09:24:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
I can only thank the Universe for the information that led to MMM's ban coming to light before we all had to suffer the indignity of whatever his opinions on daylight savings time were.
Speaking of DST, has this thread run its course yet?
I'm inclined to let it go for a bit longer since we are having an interesting discussion about what we can do better as moderators.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 14, 2023, 01:52:07 PM
has always hit home for me. I have an almost allergic reaction to untruths and falsehoods. It gets under my skin to see blatant lies repeated as gospel, and it takes a great deal of willpower not to correct each instance I see. There's a particular one that's centered on Kentucky that occasionally floats to the surface, and it really irks me to see it.
You mean that story about Joe B. Hall and Heinz ketchup? :hmmm:
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 09:24:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
I can only thank the Universe for the information that led to MMM's ban coming to light before we all had to suffer the indignity of whatever his opinions on daylight savings time were.
Didn't he post something about five minute time zones or something in one of his rants? Or am I thinking of someone else?
DST posts should be allowed. Beating a dead horse is not against the rules.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 10:05:15 PM
DST posts should be allowed. Beating a dead horse is not against the rules.
I agree, but preferably not in this thread. It's too informative and interesting to risk getting it derailed/locked.
Quote from: webny99 on March 14, 2023, 10:11:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 10:05:15 PM
DST posts should be allowed. Beating a dead horse is not against the rules.
I agree, but preferably not in this thread. It's too informative and interesting to risk getting it derailed/locked.
The mods do a good job with not locking good threads that get derailed somehow.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 10:05:15 PM
DST posts should be allowed. Beating a dead horse is not against the rules.
Animal abuse is always against the rules. :nod:
MMM also didn't respond to my quip about the tracks on LI when I referenced this, which I was also disappointed but not surprised about.
I hope MMM is able to handle his mental illness issues and lives a full and healthy life. I think he was part trolling, but there was clearly evidence of OCD related issues in his "highway plans" topic.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 09:48:23 PM
I'm inclined to let it go for a bit longer since we are having an interesting discussion about what we can do better as moderators.
That's appreciated. I think the general consensus is that trolls like this should be dealt with sooner in order to stop the forum from turning into one person's stomping ground that ruins it for everyone else. The question is how to ban someone who technically isn't breaking rules, and how long do you give that person the chance to redeem themselves if they want to?
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 15, 2023, 11:31:32 AM
The question is how to ban someone who technically isn't breaking rules, and how long do you give that person the chance to redeem themselves if they want to?
Well, I suppose that depends. In this case, the troll was also sock-puppeting.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 15, 2023, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 09:48:23 PM
I'm inclined to let it go for a bit longer since we are having an interesting discussion about what we can do better as moderators.
That's appreciated. I think the general consensus is that trolls like this should be dealt with sooner in order to stop the forum from turning into one person's stomping ground that ruins it for everyone else. The question is how to ban someone who technically isn't breaking rules, and how long do you give that person the chance to redeem themselves if they want to?
Change the rules. "You can be banned if you're excessively annoying." Suspend them for a week and tell them it's their last chance.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 14, 2023, 09:45:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 09:24:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
I blame DST for my participating in this thread today.
I can only thank the Universe for the information that led to MMM's ban coming to light before we all had to suffer the indignity of whatever his opinions on daylight savings time were.
Speaking of DST, has this thread run its course yet?
I’m beginning to think that MMM had a bigger impact on us than we think. Many of us seem to miss the guy as he was more than entertaining to say the least. It would appear that being we haven’t let the matter go, many who have argued with the 23 year old hated to see this happen.
When Dzlsabb got the ax, no one talked about it as we all began to enjoy the silence and was not at all missed. He soon got forgotten.
I'll forget him as soon as this thread stops being updated.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 15, 2023, 12:18:17 PM
Many of us seem to miss the guy as he was more than entertaining to say the least. It would appear that being we haven't let the matter go, many who have argued with the 23 year old hated to see this happen.
Count me as one person who does
NOT miss MultiDozenMiler. It was all but impossible to keep up with the conversation on here. I'd take a couple of days off from the forum, come back, and each of his threads would have five pages of new replies. *groan* Now it's back to a more manageable state.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 15, 2023, 11:05:28 AM
I hope MMM is able to handle his mental illness issues and lives a full and healthy life. I think he was part trolling, but there was clearly evidence of OCD related issues in his "highway plans" topic.
That is, if he was serious with those plans and not trolling us.
In sitcoms we have plenty of love to hate relationships. In politics it's a way of life.
It can happen here on AA Roads too.
I'm surprised that this topic is still alive. It should have died already, but I give it a few more days for the ole padlock.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 15, 2023, 12:09:41 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 15, 2023, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 09:48:23 PM
I'm inclined to let it go for a bit longer since we are having an interesting discussion about what we can do better as moderators.
That's appreciated. I think the general consensus is that trolls like this should be dealt with sooner in order to stop the forum from turning into one person's stomping ground that ruins it for everyone else. The question is how to ban someone who technically isn't breaking rules, and how long do you give that person the chance to redeem themselves if they want to?
Change the rules. "You can be banned if you're excessively annoying." Suspend them for a week and tell them it's their last chance.
Rather something like "site owner and moderators reserve the right to deem your posting unacceptable for the community on their sole judgment. You may or may not get a warning regarding that before the ban, temporary or permanent, is issued". A bit more honest, IMHO.
Like any online community, moderators acting in good faith are a required part of the community. I may personally disagree with some moderation decisions, but no doubt that Scott and Mr. Winkler acting in good faith here. Checks and balances are really required to keep big governments honest, but for small groups that need is much smaller. So as long as we agree with mods being what they are, I am inclined to trust their judgement
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 15, 2023, 11:05:28 AM
I hope MMM is able to handle his mental illness issues and lives a full and healthy life. I think he was part trolling, but there was clearly evidence of OCD related issues in his "highway plans" topic.
Wouldn't that OCD thing apply to a better half of posters?
Quote from: kalvado on March 15, 2023, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 15, 2023, 11:05:28 AM
I hope MMM is able to handle his mental illness issues and lives a full and healthy life. I think he was part trolling, but there was clearly evidence of OCD related issues in his "highway plans" topic.
Wouldn't that OCD thing apply to a better half of posters?
Yes.
BTW, OCD is an addiction like drugs, porn(though related to computers), alcohol, and store buying on payday.
Quote from: kalvado on March 15, 2023, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 15, 2023, 11:05:28 AM
I hope MMM is able to handle his mental illness issues and lives a full and healthy life. I think he was part trolling, but there was clearly evidence of OCD related issues in his "highway plans" topic.
Wouldn't that OCD thing apply to a better half of posters?
Yes, but some manage it better than others.
Let's take a moment to flash back to two infamous MTR personalities, Randy Hersh and Carl Rogers.
There's no doubt that Randy had some expertise in roadly matters. But in my view -- possibly because I was a target of his rants quite frequently -- any goodwill he may have generated by being a knowledgeable contributor was more than offset by his trolling, boorish behavior. He created new Usenet accounts faster than his old ones could be plonked. He knew he was trolling, and he did it provocatively and openly. After awhile, I quit engaging him and would plonk any new iteration that showed up.
As for Calrog, I'm not sure if he was a true believer, sly like a fox, or genuinely a true believer in the BS he spewed. He breathlessly announced every single picture he posted, and even hired PRWeb to send press releases for some of his updates. His entire site didn't contain as many photos as pics from just one of my trips. I don't know if he really believed that US routes are federal routes or if he just kept that schtick up after being called on it so many times.
The "Operation Silence The Troll" idea came from someone who felt it would be best to just ignore him; to not give him the attention he seemed to crave. I don't think it really worked. He kept on pimping his meager updates, but no one responded.
Those of you who were never on MTR in its prime missed out. Randy and Calrog made MMM and Dzlsabe look like rank amateurs.
I-997 in Delaware and several others are having trouble registering for Interstate status, I mean, an account. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33050.0, must be logged out or in incognito)
"Calrog" for some reason to me sounds like a chain of local fried chicken places. I have no idea how that pops into my head as an association when see that name.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 15, 2023, 03:23:05 PM
"Calrog" for some reason to me sounds like a chain of local fried chicken places. I have no idea how that pops into my head as an association when see that name.
It reminds me of Caldor, so I just think of being dragged shopping for clothes as a kid while enduring shitty elevator versions of Steely Dan blasting thru their PA.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 15, 2023, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 15, 2023, 03:23:05 PM
"Calrog" for some reason to me sounds like a chain of local fried chicken places. I have no idea how that pops into my head as an association when see that name.
It reminds me of Caldor, so I just think of being dragged shopping for clothes as a kid while enduring shitty elevator versions of Steely Dan blasting thru their PA.
I picture two things: (1) a little green shrub and (2) a
Balrog like the one that lived in the Mines of Moria.
I remember Caldor. They couldn't compete with Walmart or Target. Bradlees were another in Caldors market that flopped. Of course Sears and JC Penney fell and Kmart died a slow miserable death.
Though Kmart fall was not due to Walmart. Just bad brass.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 15, 2023, 02:35:22 PM
Let's take a moment to flash back to two infamous MTR personalities, Randy Hersh and Carl Rogers.
There's no doubt that Randy had some expertise in roadly matters. But in my view -- possibly because I was a target of his rants quite frequently -- any goodwill he may have generated by being a knowledgeable contributor was more than offset by his trolling, boorish behavior. He created new Usenet accounts faster than his old ones could be plonked. He knew he was trolling, and he did it provocatively and openly. After awhile, I quit engaging him and would plonk any new iteration that showed up.
As for Calrog, I'm not sure if he was a true believer, sly like a fox, or genuinely a true believer in the BS he spewed. He breathlessly announced every single picture he posted, and even hired PRWeb to send press releases for some of his updates. His entire site didn't contain as many photos as pics from just one of my trips. I don't know if he really believed that US routes are federal routes or if he just kept that schtick up after being called on it so many times.
The "Operation Silence The Troll" idea came from someone who felt it would be best to just ignore him; to not give him the attention he seemed to crave. I don't think it really worked. He kept on pimping his meager updates, but no one responded.
Those of you who were never on MTR in its prime missed out. Randy and Calrog made MMM and Dzlsabe look like rank amateurs.
I hung out on MTR and a few other usenet sites from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s, and it was like the wild west on all of them since there was no moderation.
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2023, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on March 15, 2023, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 15, 2023, 03:23:05 PM
"Calrog" for some reason to me sounds like a chain of local fried chicken places. I have no idea how that pops into my head as an association when see that name.
It reminds me of Caldor, so I just think of being dragged shopping for clothes as a kid while enduring shitty elevator versions of Steely Dan blasting thru their PA.
I picture two things: (1) a little green shrub and (2) a Balrog like the one that lived in the Mines of Moria.
Or that one that could have been several different characters in Street Fighter II depending on the region you lived at.
I just remember a video of a twit standing in a gore and someone Photoshopping a CFI truck running him over.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 15, 2023, 12:34:53 PM
I'm surprised that this topic is still alive. It should have died already, but I give it a few more days for the ole padlock.
Why would it be locked? I don't believe any rules have been broken.
Isn't there some rule against blabbing about one particular forum member?
Quote from: Rothman on March 16, 2023, 08:31:51 AM
Isn't there some rule against blabbing about one particular forum member?
I don't think he's a member anymore...
Quote from: jakeroot on March 16, 2023, 08:55:09 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 16, 2023, 08:31:51 AM
Isn't there some rule against blabbing about one particular forum member?
I don't think he's a member anymore...
DSTaboo, though.
I know I'm coming back late to this party thread (having posted on Page 1), but I think the mods did the correct thing here. While I disagreed with many of MMM's opinions and suggestions, they did seem to be mostly in the realm of roadgeekery. In my opinion, he even made some good points (just not about the straightness of turnpikes). Dumb opinions need to be allowed too. Personally, I'm sure I've had at least 5 of them since breakfast. Just because you think someone is wrong doesn't mean they should be banned. Holding the ban hammer until an actual violation of the rules (having a duplicate account) seemed to be the correct thing.
I don't think having some grand rule about "being an a$$hole" is going to solve anything for the future. I assert few of us go to a post and say, "how can I be a jerk here today." But in discussions, people get heated, so mistakes will be made. But I think we should commend Scott and the other admins for the light touch in this situation.
Quote from: zzcarp on March 16, 2023, 01:50:48 PM
Just because you think someone is wrong doesn't mean they should be banned. Holding the ban hammer until an actual violation of the rules (having a duplicate account) seemed to be the correct thing.
I don't think any of us has suggested that he should have been banned for having bad opinions or ideas–rather because he was basically spamming the forum with a zillion posts per hour, and only in the Fictional and Off-topic boards to boot.
Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2023, 01:53:24 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on March 16, 2023, 01:50:48 PM
Just because you think someone is wrong doesn't mean they should be banned. Holding the ban hammer until an actual violation of the rules (having a duplicate account) seemed to be the correct thing.
I don't think any of us has suggested that he should have been banned for having bad opinions or ideas–rather because he was basically spamming the forum with a zillion posts per hour, and only in the Fictional and Off-topic boards to boot.
I would say, he was
misbehaving, and while that is hard to formalize - it is a very real concern.
Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2023, 01:53:24 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on March 16, 2023, 01:50:48 PM
Just because you think someone is wrong doesn't mean they should be banned. Holding the ban hammer until an actual violation of the rules (having a duplicate account) seemed to be the correct thing.
I don't think any of us has suggested that he should have been banned for having bad opinions or ideas–rather because he was basically spamming the forum with a zillion posts per hour, and only in the Fictional and Off-topic boards to boot.
The only time I can recall the topic with MMM being disciplined/banned ever coming up was when he was on a roll wrecking legitimate threads. To me personally that's a way more serious problem than someone using sock account to come back to the forum. MMM did largely stop derailing legitimate threads for awhile and stuck to his own swim lane. Towards the end he started getting back into habits of old and turned everyone working against him when the Off Topic board was overrun. .
For someone who is all "I'm done with the forum and not trolling anymore" he sure is having a lot of posts deleted from the "Registration Problems" section that nobody can see when they're logged in.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 16, 2023, 06:38:45 PM
For someone who is all "I'm done with the forum and not trolling anymore" he sure is having a lot of posts deleted from the "Registration Problems" section that nobody can see when they're logged in.
Damn, missed seeing those posts when they were still up.
I take it this is why the IP ban range was put in?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2023, 08:37:22 PM
I take it this is why the IP ban range was put in?
You can use a VPN
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 16, 2023, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2023, 08:37:22 PM
I take it this is why the IP ban range was put in?
You can use a VPN
You misunderstand what I mean:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33060.0
I was in the same scenario until I messaged SSOWorld and he explained what happened.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2023, 10:45:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 16, 2023, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2023, 08:37:22 PM
I take it this is why the IP ban range was put in?
You can use a VPN
You misunderstand what I mean:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33060.0
I was in the same scenario until I messaged SSOWorld and he explained what happened.
Yeah, I saw that thread afterwards. Still, the IP ban range seems ineffective if you can just set your location to Japan if you want to.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 01:41:06 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2023, 10:45:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 16, 2023, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2023, 08:37:22 PM
I take it this is why the IP ban range was put in?
You can use a VPN
You misunderstand what I mean:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33060.0
I was in the same scenario until I messaged SSOWorld and he explained what happened.
Yeah, I saw that thread afterwards. Still, the IP ban range seems ineffective if you can just set your location to Japan if you want to.
Certainly worked on me for a couple minutes. Either way, seems like Mr. Nut Rate is making himself obvious when he tries to re-register.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 15, 2023, 12:09:41 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 15, 2023, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 09:48:23 PM
I'm inclined to let it go for a bit longer since we are having an interesting discussion about what we can do better as moderators.
That's appreciated. I think the general consensus is that trolls like this should be dealt with sooner in order to stop the forum from turning into one person's stomping ground that ruins it for everyone else. The question is how to ban someone who technically isn't breaking rules, and how long do you give that person the chance to redeem themselves if they want to?
Change the rules. "You can be banned if you're excessively annoying." Suspend them for a week and tell them it's their last chance.
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter, we're not obligated to allow
everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2023, 12:29:15 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 15, 2023, 12:18:17 PM
Many of us seem to miss the guy as he was more than entertaining to say the least. It would appear that being we haven't let the matter go, many who have argued with the 23 year old hated to see this happen.
Count me as one person who does NOT miss MultiDozenMiler. It was all but impossible to keep up with the conversation on here. I'd take a couple of days off from the forum, come back, and each of his threads would have five pages of new replies. *groan* Now it's back to a more manageable state.
This right here. I couldn't keep up with anything.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
We're not Twitter, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
As long as there is a system of warnings in place first, yes. Bans shouldn't be capricious, but rather the result of a member's refusal to heed the less drastic moderator actions that he had already been subject to. And a ban shouldn't be the decision of one moderator alone, which I just kind of assume it isn't.
You sure you want to post exactly which gun was smoking?
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 11:02:04 AM
You sure you want to post exactly which gun was smoking?
Okay, removed. (I believe he's aware already because of the emails he sent me, but just in case, I removed it.)
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 10:49:39 AMAnd a ban shouldn't be the decision of one moderator alone, which I just kind of assume it isn't.
Scott5114 said he had to confirm with the other mods even after the smoking gun was found.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 10:49:39 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
We're not Twitter, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
As long as there is a system of warnings in place first, yes. Bans shouldn't be capricious, but rather the result of a member's refusal to heed the less drastic moderator actions that he had already been subject to. And a ban shouldn't be the decision of one moderator alone, which I just kind of assume it isn't.
Honestly speaking, it depends. There were definitely situations elsewhere when I banned someone without any warning single-handedly. Peni$ 3n1@rgement offer, for example, is a good reason for that.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
I knew I'd hear from you eventually. ;)
As I said, I don't favor giving someone the boot because of their
opinions or assertions–that is to say, their
voice. But that's not the same as giving someone the boot because of their
behavior.
It's like the difference between getting kicked out of a college course because you disagree with the professor and being kicked out because you were repeatedly disruptive in class.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
You should have supported Bugo’s forum when he had it.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
Ugh. I remember the huge outline hierarchy in UseNet on MTR when the trolls got going. Yuk.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
Something I agree with HBelkins on!
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 03:40:19 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
Something I agree with HBelkins on!
Free speech absolutism is not the panacea you think it is.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 17, 2023, 04:32:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 03:40:19 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
Something I agree with HBelkins on!
Free speech absolutism is not the panacea you think it is.
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 04:56:37 PM
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.
I don't think racism or homophobia should be taken down unless the post in question is abusive towards someone else. Simply stating one's beliefs, no matter how bad, shouldn't be reprimanded unless it's a forbidden topic.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 04:56:37 PM
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.
I don't think racism or homophobia should be taken down unless the post in question is abusive towards someone else. Simply stating one's beliefs, no matter how bad, shouldn't be reprimanded unless it's a forbidden topic.
Racism and homophobia are inherently abusive towards someone else.
Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".
So...general racism and homophobia are tolerable...
I know the idea is that simply shunning racists or homophobes doesn't help them to stop being such, but this forum isn't the place for such rehabilitation.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".
Thing is, this forum is diverse enough that nearly any form of bigotry will be seen by a member of the group (race, sexual orientation, gender identity, whatever) it is targeted to. At that point it
is directed toward them, and why should we make members of our forum have to choose between putting up with that or leaving the forum?
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker. Now substitute that for something that's a whole lot hateful than calling someone a sucker and you begin to see the problem.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum.
I don't believe this, considering you post here and not on MTR. Why don't you post on MTR? Because the signal to noise ratio is too low. Which is because there's nobody there that can remove noise.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".
Thing is, this forum is diverse enough that nearly any form of bigotry will be seen by a member of the group (race, sexual orientation, gender identity, whatever) it is targeted to. At that point it is directed toward them, and why should we make members of our forum have to choose between putting up with that or leaving the forum?
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker. Now substitute that for something that's a whole lot hateful than calling someone a sucker and you begin to see the problem.
How about
Illinois is flat?
Or
people in XYZ cannot drive?
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 07:33:24 PM
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?
I hope you don't actually think those things are as hateful as ethnic slurs.
(Actually, isn't that the whole reason "Illinois is flat" was funny in the first place? Because there isn't actually anything bad about your state being flat, so it was funny that Lord Carhorn was reacting the way he did?)
"Illinois is flat" came to be because Carhorn professed the opposite to be true despite all evidence presented to him. Had it been even a slightly rational poster involved it never would have took off like it did.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 07:33:24 PM
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?
I hope you don't actually think those things are as hateful as ethnic slurs.
(Actually, isn't that the whole reason "Illinois is flat" was funny in the first place? Because there isn't actually anything bad about your state being flat, so it was funny that Lord Carhorn was reacting the way he did?)
The problem IMHO is that you try to draw bright lines where discretion is really needed.
Direct slurs are apparently wrong, but there are much more nuanced cases. For me, the intentions of one side and the perception of the other side may be more important than the vocabulary in use.
It's somewhat striking to me that HighwayStar, who has been relatively quiet for a while, has suddenly reappeared right after MMM was banned.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2023, 10:32:23 PM
It's somewhat striking to me that HighwayStar, who has been relatively quiet for a while, has suddenly reappeared right after MMM was banned.
No he reappeared before MMM was banned.
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 07:33:24 PM
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?
I hope you don't actually think those things are as hateful as ethnic slurs.
(Actually, isn't that the whole reason "Illinois is flat" was funny in the first place? Because there isn't actually anything bad about your state being flat, so it was funny that Lord Carhorn was reacting the way he did?)
The problem IMHO is that you try to draw bright lines where discretion is really needed.
Direct slurs are apparently wrong, but there are much more nuanced cases. For me, the intentions of one side and the perception of the other side may be more important than the vocabulary in use.
What this seems to overlook is that AARoads is not the only website in the world. If you want to discuss one of the very few topics we don't allow discussion of here, like religion, there are places to have that discussion. You just can't have it
here.
Same goes for a nuanced discussion of racial relations. I agree that it's possible. I don't want to have to keep checking on it to make sure it doesn't stop being nuanced, and start being hateful, though. The effort that sort of management requires is justified if we're talking about something on-topic, like a contentious road project, or something like induced demand. But it's not if it has nothing to do with roads. I don't think any of our staff signed up for that job; we're roadgeeks, not diplomats.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker.
That might be the conclusion they come to, but who are we to say how they should feel about it?
Quote from: jakeroot on March 17, 2023, 10:52:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker.
That might be the conclusion they come to, but who are we to say how they should feel about it?
This kind of misses the point, in my opinion. Sure, Kyle might just laugh off being called a sucker and carry on about his day. But there's also the chance that he'll say "Well, gee, if I can just be called a sucker and everyone's okay with it, I don't feel very welcome here, so I'm going to quit posting."
If someone is willing to leave the forum because they are not allowed to call anyone a sucker, chances are they're not the sort of person worth having on the forum to begin with, since they clearly don't know how to interact with others in a polite, non-abrasive way.
So given the choice between "leave the post up and let the sucker-caller potentially drive the alleged sucker off the forum" or "delete the post and potentially drive the sucker-caller off the forum", I will err on the side of the latter. And indeed we've had some people leave over decisions like that, but I feel like the forum is a better place for it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 10:51:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 07:33:24 PM
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?
I hope you don't actually think those things are as hateful as ethnic slurs.
(Actually, isn't that the whole reason "Illinois is flat" was funny in the first place? Because there isn't actually anything bad about your state being flat, so it was funny that Lord Carhorn was reacting the way he did?)
The problem IMHO is that you try to draw bright lines where discretion is really needed.
Direct slurs are apparently wrong, but there are much more nuanced cases. For me, the intentions of one side and the perception of the other side may be more important than the vocabulary in use.
What this seems to overlook is that AARoads is not the only website in the world. If you want to discuss one of the very few topics we don't allow discussion of here, like religion, there are places to have that discussion. You just can't have it here.
Same goes for a nuanced discussion of racial relations. I agree that it's possible. I don't want to have to keep checking on it to make sure it doesn't stop being nuanced, and start being hateful, though. The effort that sort of management requires is justified if we're talking about something on-topic, like a contentious road project, or something like induced demand. But it's not if it has nothing to do with roads. I don't think any of our staff signed up for that job; we're roadgeeks, not diplomats.
I think part of the reason is that the mod team is super dwindled at this point. A lot of the admins are barely active on the forum anymore, and it seems like you do almost all of the modding at this point, with JN Winkler and the other Scott doing a bit. There used to be like 5-6 mods doing active modding.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2023, 10:32:23 PM
It's somewhat striking to me that HighwayStar, who has been relatively quiet for a while, has suddenly reappeared right after MMM was banned.
HighwayStar reappeared before MMM's ban, not after.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 11:29:08 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 17, 2023, 10:52:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker.
That might be the conclusion they come to, but who are we to say how they should feel about it?
This kind of misses the point, in my opinion. Sure, Kyle might just laugh off being called a sucker and carry on about his day. But there's also the chance that he'll say "Well, gee, if I can just be called a sucker and everyone's okay with it, I don't feel very welcome here, so I'm going to quit posting."
If someone is willing to leave the forum because they are not allowed to call anyone a sucker, chances are they're not the sort of person worth having on the forum to begin with, since they clearly don't know how to interact with others in a polite, non-abrasive way.
So given the choice between "leave the post up and let the sucker-caller potentially drive the alleged sucker off the forum" or "delete the post and potentially drive the sucker-caller off the forum", I will err on the side of the latter. And indeed we've had some people leave over decisions like that, but I feel like the forum is a better place for it.
Now you know I feel as a cyclist here with some of the people that pull the "you people all..." routine. They know who they are (and one is actively being discussed in this thread).
Quote from: 1 on March 18, 2023, 06:57:14 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2023, 10:32:23 PM
It's somewhat striking to me that HighwayStar, who has been relatively quiet for a while, has suddenly reappeared right after MMM was banned.
HighwayStar reappeared before MMM's ban, not after.
And he's not a troll. Just has some unpopular opinions that come up quite often.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 18, 2023, 01:21:43 AM
I think part of the reason is that the mod team is super dwindled at this point. A lot of the admins are barely active on the forum anymore, and it seems like you do almost all of the modding at this point, with JN Winkler and the other Scott doing a bit. There used to be like 5-6 mods doing active modding.
How many mods do we really need around here? AARoads is a small forum compared to others I've participated in over the years (not that that's a bad thing). There's not that many posts that the mods can't handle it.
I'd still be okay with introducing some new staff though. In the event that someone has to leave or goes inactive for months or years, we have others to step up and carry forum moderation culture.
You have to ask yourself do you want a less moderated forum more than you want to discuss roads?
The way I see it, it’s better to be moderated as I have been attacked by trolls when I first joined. I got chastised over simple spelling errors and was bullied by one user because I liked one comment a local radio personality made not because of the merit of the comment, but whom the person on air was at the time.
Plus if we weren’t moderated that last fiasco of an election would have been argued here driving more of a rift between us users. Heck people on social media are still arguing over the 2020 election, so you can imagine what would be going on right now at AA Roads.
People are stubborn now more than ever. At one time people used to respect other’s opinion and was always interested in it regardless. You’re going to have loyalty now over personal beliefs whether religious or political and no one will budge their ideals.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 18, 2023, 12:31:19 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 18, 2023, 01:21:43 AM
I think part of the reason is that the mod team is super dwindled at this point. A lot of the admins are barely active on the forum anymore, and it seems like you do almost all of the modding at this point, with JN Winkler and the other Scott doing a bit. There used to be like 5-6 mods doing active modding.
How many mods do we really need around here? AARoads is a small forum compared to others I've participated in over the years (not that that's a bad thing). There's not that many posts that the mods can't handle it.
I'd still be okay with introducing some new staff though. In the event that someone has to leave or goes inactive for months or years, we have others to step up and carry forum moderation culture.
Not saying we need more mods, but we have less than we used to.
We indeed do. It seems many are committed to their own lives and finding good candidates is getting to be a thing. Plus who would want to do it?
What I’m glad is one specific moderator is gone as he would judge your Facebook actions on here which has nothing to do with this forum. Despite using different names on here over social media, it’s not hard for us to distinguish ourselves on both platforms. Like I already know who Froggie is on FB, who Max Rockatansky is on social sites, as well as whom NE2 used to be originally as he was one that was a popular internet roads site host without snark then.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 18, 2023, 08:10:09 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 18, 2023, 06:57:14 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2023, 10:32:23 PM
It's somewhat striking to me that HighwayStar, who has been relatively quiet for a while, has suddenly reappeared right after MMM was banned.
HighwayStar reappeared before MMM's ban, not after.
And he's not a troll. Just has some unpopular opinions that come up quite often.
And then just repeats them ad nauseum. Even when I tried to gently nudge him towards a source to whom he could provide his opinion that may actually make a difference, he offered no response, goes silent, then a week later repeated his oft-repeated opinion.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 18, 2023, 02:05:25 PM
We indeed do. It seems many are committed to their own lives and finding good candidates is getting to be a thing. Plus who would want to do it?
What I'm glad is one specific moderator is gone as he would judge your Facebook actions on here which has nothing to do with this forum. Despite using different names on here over social media, it's not hard for us to distinguish ourselves on both platforms. Like I already know who Froggie is on FB, who Max Rodentsky is on social sites, as well as whom NE2 used to be originally as he was one that was a popular internet roads site host without snark then.
Now I want to see a version of Mad Max where everyone is replaced with post apocalyptic animals.
Highwaystar is the one that feels if a road don't enter a city shouldn't be signed hence Baltimore on I-70.
He would love that NJDOT uses Ewing over Trenton on mileage signs on NB I-295 because it don't go through Trenton. Or he'll like TO NJ 29 on I-195 pull throughs because I-195 don't go to Trenton either.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 18, 2023, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 18, 2023, 02:05:25 PM
We indeed do. It seems many are committed to their own lives and finding good candidates is getting to be a thing. Plus who would want to do it?
What I'm glad is one specific moderator is gone as he would judge your Facebook actions on here which has nothing to do with this forum. Despite using different names on here over social media, it's not hard for us to distinguish ourselves on both platforms. Like I already know who Froggie is on FB, who Max Rodentsky is on social sites, as well as whom NE2 used to be originally as he was one that was a popular internet roads site host without snark then.
Now I want to see a version of Mad Max where everyone is replaced with post apocalyptic animals.
Honestly, I would quite enjoy this.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 17, 2023, 02:38:05 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
You should have supported Bugo's forum when he had it.
If you're referring to BIP Roads, I did join it and tried to participate, but it got hacked early on and didn't last.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:21:00 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum.
I don't believe this, considering you post here and not on MTR. Why don't you post on MTR? Because the signal to noise ratio is too low. Which is because there's nobody there that can remove noise.
I read MTR regularly. I no longer have a Usenet provider (Newsguy went belly-up and I haven't bothered to look into any of the other providers so I can download binaries) so I use Google Groups to read MTR. Lately it's been overrun with spammers trying to sell credit card numbers. (That must be the new generic Viagra equivalent for 2023.) Occasionally an on-topic post will float through; sometimes it's a new post and sometimes it's a reply to a very old post. And that still seems to be where Calrog hangs out. The lack of availability of Usenet access seems to be the biggest culprit in the format's demise. And the overall decline of Usenet has been discussed here and elsewhere very often; it traces back to a former New York attorney general (Spitzer?) going after ISPs because their Usenet feeds had some binary groups that contained child porn.
When I first got dialup Internet access, my local provider told me they carried the standard AT&T Usenet feed. Years later, when I had AT&T DSL service, AT&T discontinued their Usenet access around the same time that AOL, which got credit/blame for an influx of Usenet users outside an academic environment when it began offering Usenet access, dropped its availability.
I used to read a crapload of newsgroups, but truth be told I have lost a lot of interest in a lot of the subjects I once followed. I no longer root for UK basketball for reasons that are not allowed to be discussed here. So there went rec.sport.basketball.college. A lot of my interest in NASCAR has waned over the years for a whole lot of reasons. Bye to rec.autos.sport.nascar. My favorite radio personality is dead. So there's no need to read alt.fan.rush-limbaugh. I quit watching pro wrestling eons ago so rec.sport.pro-wrestling is off the table. I've stopped keeping up with new developments in the Macintosh computer world so I don't have much need to read the comp.sys.mac.* groups.
It also doesn't help that Thoth, my Mac newsreader, hasn't been updated in about two decades and doesn't play well with newer Mac OSes. Unison also seems to have gone dormant and I found it quirky to navigate.
I stayed active in the Yahoo groups until the plug was pulled on them, although participation had dropped drastically.
I'm not sure what's replaced Usenet and the Yahoo groups. Social media, probably, but it has a lot of drawbacks. Not only do you have to deal with the arbitrary terms of service, but various group administrators have their own policies to which you have to adhere. One group has strict standards about photo quality, but will allow you to post any crappy video you want. That seems very inconsistent to me.
The fact is that this forum is the default. It's either talk about roads here, or nowhere.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 17, 2023, 04:32:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 03:40:19 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
Something I agree with HBelkins on!
Free speech absolutism is not the panacea you think it is.
The answer to speech you don't like is not to silence the speaker. It's either to counter what is said, or to turn off your receiver. If a song comes on the radio that I don't like, I can turn the radio off.
If you didn't like what someone posted on MTR, you could killfile them. If you don't like their tweets, you can block or mute them on Twitter. That way, you're not subjected to things you disagree with, but it's still there for anyone else who wants to see it.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 18, 2023, 08:43:41 PM
The fact is that this forum is the default. It's either talk about roads here, or nowhere.
And the reason it is the default is, in my view, because it is a moderated forum. This forum began when MTR was still the focal point of the roadgeek community. Once this forum opened, most people from MTR shifted here. The only selling point that this forum really had over MTR was that it was moderated. And that was why people voted with their feet–moderation was a ticket out of having to pick through Carl Rogers and "Laura Bush Murdered Her Boyfriend" and spammers and whatever other dross.
Thing is, someone else could very easily start another attempt at an unmoderated roads forum at any time. Lack of moderation had nothing to do with Biproads getting hacked and going down, so far as I know (I didn't participate in it so I may be missing something). The fact that nobody has tried before or since Biproads kind of says to me that there's just not a market for that product.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 18, 2023, 08:43:41 PM
If you didn't like what someone posted on MTR, you could killfile them. If you don't like their tweets, you can block or mute them on Twitter. That way, you're not subjected to things you disagree with, but it's still there for anyone else who wants to see it.
Unless, of course, your ISP never carried a Usenet feed, and you didn't have the means to pay for one from some other provider. Then you were stuck with Google Groups, which had no killfile capability at the time this forum was founded.
My opinion of MTR was always that it sort of sucked. The serious, on-topic discussions were good if you could find them. But that was always a big if.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 18, 2023, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 17, 2023, 02:38:05 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM
Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.
Might as well give that deceased equine another swat... :bigass:
You should have supported Bugo's forum when he had it.
If you're referring to BIP Roads, I did join it and tried to participate, but it got hacked early on and didn't last.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:21:00 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum.
I don't believe this, considering you post here and not on MTR. Why don't you post on MTR? Because the signal to noise ratio is too low. Which is because there's nobody there that can remove noise.
I read MTR regularly. I no longer have a Usenet provider (Newsguy went belly-up and I haven't bothered to look into any of the other providers so I can download binaries) so I use Google Groups to read MTR. Lately it's been overrun with spammers trying to sell credit card numbers.
So...MTR and BipRoads were your ideal environments and they both went to crap because of a lack of moderation. If one desires a quality road forum, it would appear AARoads provides one while the others do/did not. Therefore, whatever principles are behind the support of the dysfunctional MTR and BipRoads are not well-founded.
Reminds me of the Libertarian utopia of Grafton, NH and how the bears came in...
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 10:16:03 PM
So...MTR and BipRoads were your ideal environments and they both went to crap because of a lack of moderation. If one desires a quality road forum, it would appear AARoads provides one while the others do/did not. Therefore, whatever principles are behind the support of the dysfunctional MTR and BipRoads are not well-founded.
Reminds me of the Libertarian utopia of Grafton, NH and how the bears came in...
I don't know anything about BipRoads' moderation practices. The moderation there had nothing to do with them being unrecoverably hacked.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 19, 2023, 09:17:01 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 10:16:03 PM
So...MTR and BipRoads were your ideal environments and they both went to crap because of a lack of moderation. If one desires a quality road forum, it would appear AARoads provides one while the others do/did not. Therefore, whatever principles are behind the support of the dysfunctional MTR and BipRoads are not well-founded.
Reminds me of the Libertarian utopia of Grafton, NH and how the bears came in...
I don't know anything about BipRoads' moderation practices. The moderation there had nothing to do with them being unrecoverably hacked.
A lassiez-faire approach to administration would lead to being vulnerable to hacking.
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2023, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 19, 2023, 09:17:01 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 10:16:03 PM
So...MTR and BipRoads were your ideal environments and they both went to crap because of a lack of moderation. If one desires a quality road forum, it would appear AARoads provides one while the others do/did not. Therefore, whatever principles are behind the support of the dysfunctional MTR and BipRoads are not well-founded.
Reminds me of the Libertarian utopia of Grafton, NH and how the bears came in...
I don't know anything about BipRoads' moderation practices. The moderation there had nothing to do with them being unrecoverably hacked.
A lassiez-faire approach to administration would lead to being vulnerable to hacking.
That's a false equivalency. Server security protocols have nothing to do with enforcing user conduct rules on a forum.
When my own site was hacked it was because I was a bit too liberal setting the 'write' permission on a directory that should have been read-only.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 19, 2023, 11:49:01 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2023, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 19, 2023, 09:17:01 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2023, 10:16:03 PM
So...MTR and BipRoads were your ideal environments and they both went to crap because of a lack of moderation. If one desires a quality road forum, it would appear AARoads provides one while the others do/did not. Therefore, whatever principles are behind the support of the dysfunctional MTR and BipRoads are not well-founded.
Reminds me of the Libertarian utopia of Grafton, NH and how the bears came in...
I don't know anything about BipRoads' moderation practices. The moderation there had nothing to do with them being unrecoverably hacked.
A lassiez-faire approach to administration would lead to being vulnerable to hacking.
That's a false equivalency. Server security protocols have nothing to do with enforcing user conduct rules on a forum.
When my own site was hacked it was because I was a bit too liberal setting the 'write' permission on a directory that should have been read-only.
I don't know. Given my little experience with BipRoads, it certainly seemed "hands-off" in all aspects. The approaches to moderation and administration certainly seemed to stem from the same mentality: "Let's just get it going and let it go..."
Stumbled across Biproads twitter. I get bad vibes from it.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 02:38:25 AM
Stumbled across Biproads twitter. I get bad vibes from it.
Heh. The fact Biproads is on Twitter stupefies me. :D
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".
Thing is, this forum is diverse enough that nearly any form of bigotry will be seen by a member of the group (race, sexual orientation, gender identity, whatever) it is targeted to. At that point it is directed toward them, and why should we make members of our forum have to choose between putting up with that or leaving the forum?
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker. Now substitute that for something that's a whole lot hateful than calling someone a sucker and you begin to see the problem.
If someone from, say, Long Island said that everyone in Kansas is a redneck who marries their sibling and don't doesn't even deserve consideration, then I don't think that person should be banned from the forum for thinking that–despite what that implies he must think about Jonathan and me. But, if that same person started accusing me
personally of something like that, would you honestly not see a difference? There's a difference.
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 05:06:10 PM
So...general racism and homophobia are tolerable...
Depends on your definition of 'tolerable'. If you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'excused or forgiven', then no. But if you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'tolerated or endured', then yes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 11:29:08 PM
Sure, Kyle might just laugh off being called a sucker and carry on about his day. But there's also the chance that he'll say "Well, gee, if I can just be called a sucker and everyone's okay with it, I don't feel very welcome here, so I'm going to quit posting."
If someone is willing to leave the forum because they are not allowed to call anyone a sucker, chances are they're not the sort of person worth having on the forum to begin with, since they clearly don't know how to interact with others in a polite, non-abrasive way.
To which my response is the same as it was seven years ago. Calling names isn't the same thing as having a well-articulated belief that others find offensive to their own worldview. As I said back then:
Quote from: kphoger on April 10, 2016, 02:38:30 PM
More to the point, though, the arguments I've found myself in have all for the most part been intelligent and reasonable, with other members legitimately expressing their opinions and keeping their personal attacks against me to a clear minimum. I have not often been subjected to quick verbal slaps like "yawn", vulgarity, and the like.
If a member takes offense at a clearly presented, thought-out reply from someone of a contrary opinion, then maybe that member is not cut out to be part of an online forum. But I should also say that cutting, personal attacks using coarse language are both intended to and should be expected to upset the other party. Allowing that sort of behavior without censure is tacitly promoting an atmosphere of unwelcome and discord. New members will feel like leaving, veteran members will feel like disappearing, and the amicable exchange of experience and ideas that aaroads should be devolves into a clique.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:21:00 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum.
I don't believe this, considering you post here and not on MTR. Why don't you post on MTR? Because the signal to noise ratio is too low. Which is because there's nobody there that can remove noise.
The golden age of usenet groups was great. By and large there wasn't much noise - there was kind of a gentlemen's agreement to stick to the topics at hand. That, and because of the lack of anonymity, there just wasn't a lot of trolling.
But it all started to fall apart when Google Groups became the primary way for people to access usenet. After that, web-based moderated forums like this became the norm. Because people like to have SOME rules in these forums - complete free speech without any rules makes it unbearable.
I knew I'd have to answer for this eventually...
First off, biproads was never hacked. It just got very low viewership and retention of posters because it didn't really have a reason to exist. I was way too online at that point and wanted to be angry for no reason at all, so naturally being a mod there sounded like a power trip I was glad to take. Just weeks later, I found myself in a new job I hated with practically no free time to post anywhere, including here. The biproads forum ended a couple months later due to lack of interest on everyone else's part, too.
I quickly became ashamed of myself, and even more so as months turned into years. I assumed that I became persona non grata here because of the way I conducted myself until Alps messaged me and said I was missed in the chat room. I started showing up to the chat room infrequently for quite a while, sometimes wondering if I would be greeted with pitchforks and torches if I showed myself in the main forum again. I DMed Scott with regrets about my conduct years ago, and he didn't remember what I was talking about. With that reassurance, I was able to comfortably return to the forum and haven't spoken out about this until now. I have grown a great deal since then and I'm glad to have made peace with the mods here.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 05:06:10 PM
So...general racism and homophobia are tolerable...
Depends on your definition of 'tolerable'. If you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'excused or forgiven', then no. But if you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'tolerated or endured', then yes.
Nah. Racists and homophobes need to be reformed, which is the opposite of tolerated.
Quote from: Rothman on March 20, 2023, 01:31:36 PM
Racists and homophobes need to be reformed, which is the opposite of tolerated.
And making rules to prevent them voicing their beliefs will ... somehow ... reform them? Isn't civilized conversation actually a better means to that end?
Quote from: Rothman on March 20, 2023, 01:31:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 05:06:10 PM
So...general racism and homophobia are tolerable...
Depends on your definition of 'tolerable'. If you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'excused or forgiven', then no. But if you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'tolerated or endured', then yes.
Nah. Racists and homophobes need to be reformed, which is the opposite of tolerated.
That's flawed logic assuming they all can be or even want to be reformed.
Meanwhile, |Beltway|, long-term member and still 32nd in total posts (currently), left the forum 2½ years ago because he felt the moderation practices had made it an unwelcoming place for someone with his political beliefs.
Quote from: Rothman on March 20, 2023, 01:31:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 05:06:10 PM
So...general racism and homophobia are tolerable...
Depends on your definition of 'tolerable'. If you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'excused or forgiven', then no. But if you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'tolerated or endured', then yes.
Nah. Racists and homophobes need to be reformed, which is the opposite of tolerated.
Good luck doing that through a forum :clap:
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 20, 2023, 02:35:37 PM
Good luck doing that through a forum :clap:
All but impossible on a platform like Facebook. But, here on a forum like this, where civilized conversation is encouraged, it's possible. I know my own opinions have been informed by the conversations on here in the past.
But the solution is
not to prohibit one side of the argument from making its voice heard.
Quote from: Barack Obama – Rutgers University – 15-MAY-2016
If you disagree with somebody, bring them in and ask them tough questions. Hold their feet to the fire. Make them defend their positions. If somebody has got a bad or offensive idea, prove it wrong. Engage it. Debate it. Stand up for what you believe in. Don't be scared to take somebody on. Don't feel like you got to shut your ears off because you're too fragile and somebody might offend your sensibilities. Go at them if they're not making any sense. Use your logic and reason and words.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 02:06:01 PM
Meanwhile, |Beltway|, long-term member and still 32nd in total posts (currently), left the forum 2½ years ago because he felt the moderation practices had made it an unwelcoming place for someone with his political beliefs.
Well, that, and the fact that he felt that the mods were taking the side of another poster over him when they got into some heated discussions over road projects in the Virginia and North Carolina region. He felt like he got chased off. He communicated with me to tell me he'd gotten warnings and post restrictions and he was chafing under them.
This bugged me. Scott Kozel is one of the senior members of this community/hobby/interest. He had a seminal Web site and was, and remains, highly knowledgeable about the topic. He's one of about 20 or 25 people that I would consider to be at the top of the hierarchy in this niche -- and that includes a number of people with whom I've had some personal and philosophical disagreements over the years. If there's no place for him here, then is there a place for anyone?
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 02:41:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 20, 2023, 02:35:37 PM
Good luck doing that through a forum :clap:
All but impossible on a platform like Facebook. But, here on a forum like this, where civilized conversation is encouraged, it's possible. I know my own opinions have been informed by the conversations on here in the past.
But the solution is not to prohibit one side of the argument from making its voice heard.
Quote from: Barack Obama – Rutgers University – 15-MAY-2016
If you disagree with somebody, bring them in and ask them tough questions. Hold their feet to the fire. Make them defend their positions. If somebody has got a bad or offensive idea, prove it wrong. Engage it. Debate it. Stand up for what you believe in. Don't be scared to take somebody on. Don't feel like you got to shut your ears off because you're too fragile and somebody might offend your sensibilities. Go at them if they're not making any sense. Use your logic and reason and words.
It's impossible on any forum that restricts conduct and content.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 02:06:01 PM
Meanwhile, |Beltway|, long-term member and still 32nd in total posts (currently), left the forum 2½ years ago because he felt the moderation practices had made it an unwelcoming place for someone with his political beliefs.
There are tons of hardcore conservatives on the forum. Just don't bring up politics and it won't become an issue.
In general, I adopt the position of classical liberalism, which is that all speech should be protected unless it actually incites harmful behavior toward someone. However, in a forum setting like this, I agree that speech that inflicts emotional harm upon someone should also be disallowed.
But I think part of the problem is that, as classical liberalism has striven to exalt the individual, to erode the tendency of individuals finding their value and sense of self from higher structures, we have reached a point in our society in which a person's sexual orientation is considered more a part of his or her identity than a person's religious convictions. Religious identity is viewed in our modern society as something that is tacked on to one's core self, whereas sexual identity is considered to be an integral part of one's core self. This, fundamentally, is why speech that disparages homosexuality is condemned as hate speech, while speech that disparages an established religious doctrine against homosexuality is not likewise condemned: offending one's sexuality is considered an attack on one's identity, whereas offending one's religion is simply not. Ironically, then, a core value of classical liberalism ends up working against itself.
After all, there have been plenty of remarks on this forum against religion in general and Evangelical Christianity specifically, and I suspect none of them has been the subject of moderator censure. As a religious person, I see this as a double standard, because I consider my own identity to be defined by my religion above all else.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 03:41:27 PM
In general, I adopt the position of classical liberalism, which is that all speech should be protected unless it actually incites harmful behavior toward someone. However, in a forum setting like this, I agree that speech that inflicts emotional harm upon someone should also be disallowed.
But I think part of the problem is that, as classical liberalism has striven to exalt the individual, to erode the tendency of individuals finding their value and sense of self from higher structures, we have reached a point in our society in which a person's sexual orientation is considered more a part of his or her identity than a person's religious convictions. Religious identity is viewed in our modern society as something that is tacked on to one's core self, whereas sexual identity is considered to be an integral part of one's core self. This, fundamentally, is why speech that disparages homosexuality is condemned as hate speech, while speech that disparages an established religious doctrine against homosexuality is not likewise condemned: offending one's sexuality is considered an attack on one's identity, whereas offending one's religion is simply not. Ironically, then, a core value of classical liberalism ends up working against itself.
After all, there have been plenty of remarks on this forum against religion in general and Evangelical Christianity specifically, and I suspect none of them has been the subject of moderator censure. As a religious person, I see this as a double standard, because I consider my own identity to be defined by my religion above all else.
I consider myself to be a slightly religious person. I accept religion as long as it does not encourage hate against other groups of people.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 03:43:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 03:41:27 PM
After all, there have been plenty of remarks on this forum against religion in general and Evangelical Christianity specifically, and I suspect none of them has been the subject of moderator censure. As a religious person, I see this as a double standard, because I consider my own identity to be defined by my religion above all else.
I consider myself to be a slightly religious person. I accept religion as long as it does not encourage hate against other groups of people.
So you don't accept Islam and some forms of atheism? (unless we are trying to redefine what "hate" is)
And I agree with
kphoger; my relationship with God is what defines me more than anything else.
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 20, 2023, 04:44:16 PM
So you don't accept Islam and some forms of atheism? (unless we are trying to redefine what "hate" is)
Let's not go there. I've avoided the "redefine what hate is" issue in order to keep the conversation civilized and fairly neutral. No need to throw a grenade into the thread.
Religion is something you can change at any time. It's a choice.
Gender identity, on the other hand, is not a choice. There have been studies where it's now possible to tell whether someone is going to be gay or want to change genders from a very young age, even though it won't show for over ten years later. It's how the body is wired.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 03:29:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 02:06:01 PM
Meanwhile, |Beltway|, long-term member and still 32nd in total posts (currently), left the forum 2½ years ago because he felt the moderation practices had made it an unwelcoming place for someone with his political beliefs.
There are tons of hardcore conservatives on the forum. Just don't bring up politics and it won't become an issue.
Yes please stay away from religion and politics as it's not a good thing on here.
Quote from: 1 on March 20, 2023, 05:04:27 PM
Religion is something you can change at any time. It's a choice.
Gender identity, on the other hand, is not a choice. There have been studies where it's now possible to tell whether someone is going to be gay or want to change genders from a very young age, even though it won't show for over ten years later. It's how the body is wired.
That doesn't actually contradict what I said.
Society has transitioned away from understanding our identity in terms of family structure and religion–things on a community level–toward understanding our identity in terms of things on an individual level. The very notion that religion is a choice that can be changed at any time reveals an understanding of religion that is distinctly a modern Western understanding. It is not universal today, and it was not a part of Western culture until the Age of Enlightenment and the rise of classical liberalism. The assertion that a person's identity is defined primarily by his or her genetics is one that I disagree with at a fundamental level. As I said, I view my identity in terms of my religion above all else–including my race, sex, or anything else determined by my DNA. So, even if you are correct that religion is a choice and sexuality or gender identity is hardwired, that still doesn't necessarily make derogatory comments about one's religion any less hateful or personal.
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 20, 2023, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 03:43:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 03:41:27 PM
After all, there have been plenty of remarks on this forum against religion in general and Evangelical Christianity specifically, and I suspect none of them has been the subject of moderator censure. As a religious person, I see this as a double standard, because I consider my own identity to be defined by my religion above all else.
I consider myself to be a slightly religious person. I accept religion as long as it does not encourage hate against other groups of people.
So you don't accept Islam and some forms of atheism? (unless we are trying to redefine what "hate" is)
And I agree with kphoger; my relationship with God is what defines me more than anything else.
I accept Islam, as long as they don't use their religious beliefs to influence politics or try to force their beliefs on others. Same with atheism, even.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 05:35:16 PM
or try to force their beliefs on others
Every religion does this.
Count how many religions are mentioned in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary
Quote from: 1 on March 20, 2023, 05:35:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 05:35:16 PM
or try to force their beliefs on others
Every religion does this.
Most churches and religious places I know of do not do active recruiting among athiests. The only religious groups that try to force you to believe what they believe are the weird door to door cults like Jehovah's Witnesses.
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 20, 2023, 12:35:47 PM
I knew I’d have to answer for this eventually…
First off, biproads was never hacked. It just got very low viewership and retention of posters because it didn’t really have a reason to exist. I was way too online at that point and wanted to be angry for no reason at all, so naturally being a mod there sounded like a power trip I was glad to take. Just weeks later, I found myself in a new job I hated with practically no free time to post anywhere, including here. The biproads forum ended a couple months later due to lack of interest on everyone else’s part, too.
I quickly became ashamed of myself, and even more so as months turned into years. I assumed that I became persona non grata here because of the way I conducted myself until Alps messaged me and said I was missed in the chat room. I started showing up to the chat room infrequently for quite a while, sometimes wondering if I would be greeted with pitchforks and torches if I showed myself in the main forum again. I DMed Scott with regrets about my conduct years ago, and he didn’t remember what I was talking about. With that reassurance, I was able to comfortably return to the forum and haven’t spoken out about this until now. I have grown a great deal since then and I’m glad to have made peace with the mods here.
I’m not sure I see anything in your post that’s worthy of answering for, unless you’re admitting you sabotaged it somehow.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 20, 2023, 02:44:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 02:06:01 PM
Meanwhile, |Beltway|, long-term member and still 32nd in total posts (currently), left the forum 2½ years ago because he felt the moderation practices had made it an unwelcoming place for someone with his political beliefs.
Well, that, and the fact that he felt that the mods were taking the side of another poster over him when they got into some heated discussions over road projects in the Virginia and North Carolina region. He felt like he got chased off. He communicated with me to tell me he'd gotten warnings and post restrictions and he was chafing under them.
This bugged me. Scott Kozel is one of the senior members of this community/hobby/interest. He had a seminal Web site and was, and remains, highly knowledgeable about the topic. He's one of about 20 or 25 people that I would consider to be at the top of the hierarchy in this niche -- and that includes a number of people with whom I've had some personal and philosophical disagreements over the years. If there's no place for him here, then is there a place for anyone?
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 02:41:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 20, 2023, 02:35:37 PM
Good luck doing that through a forum :clap:
All but impossible on a platform like Facebook. But, here on a forum like this, where civilized conversation is encouraged, it's possible. I know my own opinions have been informed by the conversations on here in the past.
But the solution is not to prohibit one side of the argument from making its voice heard.
Quote from: Barack Obama – Rutgers University – 15-MAY-2016
If you disagree with somebody, bring them in and ask them tough questions. Hold their feet to the fire. Make them defend their positions. If somebody has got a bad or offensive idea, prove it wrong. Engage it. Debate it. Stand up for what you believe in. Don't be scared to take somebody on. Don't feel like you got to shut your ears off because you're too fragile and somebody might offend your sensibilities. Go at them if they're not making any sense. Use your logic and reason and words.
It's impossible on any forum that restricts conduct and content.
You shouldn't be able to bend rules because you are a senior member of the community. Everyone should follow by the same rules, no matter if you joined the forum in 2009 or 2022.
Regarding Beltway specifically, there was an incident where a moderator took the very unusual action of editing one of Beltway's posts rather than a purple text post as a reply or deleting the post entirely. The post in question used a nickname for Ralph Northam, the Democratic governor of Virginia at the time.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 05:35:16 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 20, 2023, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 03:43:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 03:41:27 PM
After all, there have been plenty of remarks on this forum against religion in general and Evangelical Christianity specifically, and I suspect none of them has been the subject of moderator censure. As a religious person, I see this as a double standard, because I consider my own identity to be defined by my religion above all else.
I consider myself to be a slightly religious person. I accept religion as long as it does not encourage hate against other groups of people.
So you don't accept Islam and some forms of atheism? (unless we are trying to redefine what "hate" is)
And I agree with kphoger; my relationship with God is what defines me more than anything else.
I accept Islam, as long as they don't use their religious beliefs to influence politics or try to force their beliefs on others. Same with atheism, even.
Ok, thanks. I was just interested to see what your opinion on that was.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2023, 05:06:10 PM
So...general racism and homophobia are tolerable...
Depends on your definition of 'tolerable'. If you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'excused or forgiven', then no. But if you mean that racist and homophobic beliefs should be 'tolerated or endured', then yes.
Here's the difference between us–I don't believe someone should
have to tolerate and endure racist and homophobic beliefs when they're on this forum. They are here to read all about roads and the various aspects of Limon, Colorado, not have their identity as a person slandered. They probably get enough of that elsewhere.
Given that there's absolutely no need to be racist or homophobic when talking about roads, there's really no good reason to let it stand. Other than rah, rah, free speech, but then that's never been absolute (and doesn't legally apply to a privately-owned group like AARoads anyway).
(I also think it's likely that you may not appreciate the difference between something like making fun of you for the state you live in, and being a member of a protected class. If someone were to make fun of me for being from Oklahoma, I'd probably laugh along with them and make fun of Oklahoma too. If someone were to make fun of me for my sexual orientation, or were to make fun of my wife for being Native American, that hits a lot different because both of those are both things people have been killed over. So far as I know there's never been a large swath of people saying "The only good Oklahoman is a dead Oklahoman.")
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 03:41:27 PM
After all, there have been plenty of remarks on this forum against religion in general and Evangelical Christianity specifically, and I suspect none of them has been the subject of moderator censure. As a religious person, I see this as a double standard, because I consider my own identity to be defined by my religion above all else.
Not being religious myself, this is a known blind spot for me. If you feel like a post is going too far, feel free to report it, and I'll take a look at it (and so will the other mods, who may be more competent on the matter).
Quote from: 1 on March 20, 2023, 05:04:27 PM
Religion is something you can change at any time. It's a choice.
Gender identity, on the other hand, is not a choice. There have been studies where it's now possible to tell whether someone is going to be gay or want to change genders from a very young age, even though it won't show for over ten years later. It's how the body is wired.
It's not really that simple, either. Many religions consider you a member for life if you're born into it. If you have a Jewish mother for example, you're automatically eligible for Israeli citizenship if you wish to move there, regardless of what your actual beliefs are.
Quote from: Takumi on March 20, 2023, 05:38:39 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 20, 2023, 12:35:47 PM
I knew I'd have to answer for this eventually...
First off, biproads was never hacked. It just got very low viewership and retention of posters because it didn't really have a reason to exist. I was way too online at that point and wanted to be angry for no reason at all, so naturally being a mod there sounded like a power trip I was glad to take. Just weeks later, I found myself in a new job I hated with practically no free time to post anywhere, including here. The biproads forum ended a couple months later due to lack of interest on everyone else's part, too.
I quickly became ashamed of myself, and even more so as months turned into years. I assumed that I became persona non grata here because of the way I conducted myself until Alps messaged me and said I was missed in the chat room. I started showing up to the chat room infrequently for quite a while, sometimes wondering if I would be greeted with pitchforks and torches if I showed myself in the main forum again. I DMed Scott with regrets about my conduct years ago, and he didn't remember what I was talking about. With that reassurance, I was able to comfortably return to the forum and haven't spoken out about this until now. I have grown a great deal since then and I'm glad to have made peace with the mods here.
I'm not sure I see anything in your post that's worthy of answering for, unless you're admitting you sabotaged it somehow.
Just my behavior in general around that time. I was just being a dolt for no good reason, and my involvement in biproads was the culmination of all that. But I'm aware now that I was actually my own worst critic and people barely remember anything I did at the time.
I talked to a next level troll today.
A high school assignment - compare 2 different approaches to a certain societal issue, two documents, showing opposite directions.
OK, great assignment. Bill of Rights vs forum rules School Code of Conduct.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 20, 2023, 06:38:13 PM
Here's the difference between us–I don't believe someone should have to tolerate and endure racist and homophobic beliefs when they're on this forum. They are here to read all about roads and the various aspects of Limon, Colorado, not have their identity as a person slandered. They probably get enough of that elsewhere.
Given that there's absolutely no need to be racist or homophobic when talking about roads, there's really no good reason to let it stand. Other than rah, rah, free speech, but then that's never been absolute (and doesn't legally apply to a privately-owned group like AARoads anyway).
Robert Moses would like a word from the hereafter. :-D
Quote from: hbelkins on March 20, 2023, 07:55:46 PM
Robert Moses would like a word from the hereafter. :-D
There's no
need to be racist when talking about roads, but Robert Moses did it anyway.
Quote from: 1 on March 20, 2023, 05:35:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 20, 2023, 05:35:16 PM
or try to force their beliefs on others
Every religion does this.
Count how many religions are mentioned in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary
I think there's a substantial difference between (a) attempting to win people over to your religion by means of conversation and literature and (b) insisting that secular society abide by the standards of your religion by means of legislation and force. I'm perfectly fine with (a) and, the last time I got a knock on the door from a couple of Mormons, I invited them in, and my wife and I had about a 45-minute conversation with them about religion. However, (b) get really messy, because a person's religious beliefs also tend to inform what they believe is good or bad for society in general–not just within his or her own religious community. For example, a Muslim might abstain from alcohol for religious reasons, but it's reasonable to assume he or she also believes that society in general would be better off if
everyone abstained from alcohol, and thus it's reasonable to expect him or her to support laws that restrict or prohibit alcohol.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 20, 2023, 06:38:13 PM
Here's the difference between us–I don't believe someone should have to tolerate and endure racist and homophobic beliefs when they're on this forum. They are here to read all about roads and the various aspects of Limon, Colorado, not have their identity as a person slandered. They probably get enough of that elsewhere.
Given that there's absolutely no need to be racist or homophobic when talking about roads, there's really no good reason to let it stand.
I agree with you that any discussion of race or sexual orientation is bound to be off-topic here–unless maybe it's a discussion about the causes and effects of highway projects in minority neighborhoods (not that anyone here would ever talk about that, and not that any accusations of racism would get thrown around in such a discussion, and not that any of those accusations would be warranted... ha ha). So, in that sense, I agree that there's no reason to tolerate any such speech at all. Just keep in mind that, when certain worldviews are allowed to be expressed and others are not, you may actually be "making members of our forum have to choose between putting up with that or leaving the forum". Basically, you are adopting a position of exclusion in the name of inclusion. Obviously, that's your prerogative as one of the gatekeepers of this forum and, as long as you're honest in saying that some people's beliefs are welcome here and others' are not, then at least your actions are consistent. I think a fairer way of handling things would be to viciously eradicate all mention of race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc–whether you personally agree with the comment being made on the topic or not; however, that would end up being too authoritarian of an environment in my opinion. I appreciate that we have a good deal of leeway when it comes to such topics, and that moderator action only happens when things are approaching or have already passed a flash point.
In short, I think the way things are on here now is pretty good. I really wouldn't change much at all.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 20, 2023, 06:38:13 PM
Other than rah, rah, free speech, but then that's never been absolute (and doesn't legally apply to a privately-owned group like AARoads anyway).
Oh, for sure. I went off talking about generalities that apply to life in general. I really wasn't talking about this forum specifically at that point.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 20, 2023, 06:38:13 PM
I also think it's likely that you may not appreciate the difference between something like making fun of you for the state you live in, and being a member of a protected class. If someone were to make fun of me for being from Oklahoma, I'd probably laugh along with them and make fun of Oklahoma too. If someone were to make fun of me for my sexual orientation, or were to make fun of my wife for being Native American, that hits a lot different because both of those are both things people have been killed over. So far as I know there's never been a large swath of people saying "The only good Oklahoman is a dead Oklahoman."
You're probably half right.
I mean, of course I know there's a clear difference between those two things–whether people have been killed over the latter or not, in fact. I struggled to respond intelligently to your "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker" post precisely because you seemed to be saying they were comparable. If you expand the scope beyond just what state you live in, then things actually get kind of muddy. Americans are routinely characterized elsewhere in the world as loud, ignorant, materialistic, thoughtless, arrogant, and wealthy–so, in a sense, we all have to decide to either get offended or laugh along at the caricature. This is not just theoretical for me, considering I do ministry work in northern Mexico, where my race serves as a proxy for my nationality, and a whole host of cultural baggage is assumed of me simply by my being white in a place where almost everyone who looks like me is an American. Most people there are very polite when they're in our company, but I have to be careful not to forget that what they say about us after we've parted ways isn't necessarily the same. My best friends have now lived in that area for a few years and, during that time, they have had their house broken into and burglarized, and their vehicle stripped of parts–in a town where crime is otherwise generally low. I've also experienced racism against me in the minority-majority neighborhoods of Chicago. So, while I may not know exactly what it's like to be a Native American, I do know what it's like to be a minority.
On the other hand, I've never been in the minority when it comes to sexual orientation, for obvious reasons. I'm not sure it's even possible for me, as a straight man, to fully appreciate what it's like to be the target of homophobia.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 20, 2023, 06:41:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2023, 03:41:27 PM
After all, there have been plenty of remarks on this forum against religion in general and Evangelical Christianity specifically, and I suspect none of them has been the subject of moderator censure. As a religious person, I see this as a double standard, because I consider my own identity to be defined by my religion above all else.
Not being religious myself, this is a known blind spot for me. If you feel like a post is going too far, feel free to report it, and I'll take a look at it (and so will the other mods, who may be more competent on the matter).
On the one hand, thank you. I really appreciate that. On the other hand, I don't already report such posts precisely because I appreciate the other person's freedom to express their beliefs without fear of reprimand. They're free to hate religion, or my religion, and I respect that.
(and don't forget, people have been killed over religion too)
Oh it’s called respect. We don’t respect nowadays and we try hard to get others to view like our own selves.
I belong to the Knights of Columbus and I love their charity work is why I belong. However, they have a part separated from the Knights called the Fourth Degree which in my opinion is overrated. It’s supposed to be about patriotism, but after attending their initiation ceremony, I find it not to be that but an FU to certain other non Catholics despite it was founded in 1900 to prove to Protestants that Catholics are as American as they are. Yet the exempflication said otherwise.
Needless to say, I declined to join the Fourth, but believe strongly in the original core as that’s what the Knights truly are. However I respect other members who join the fourth and profess it despite its not for me. I will not go two miles to stop another member for partaking in the Fourth Degree initiation.
Why? Because I respect others beliefs. If they want to like the Fourth let them. Just because I don’t shouldn’t stop them.
– May the Fourth be with you.
– And also with you.
Quote from: kphoger on March 22, 2023, 06:04:13 PM
– May the Fourth be with you.
– And also with you.
The Vatican recently changed "And also with you" to "And with your spirit".
Quote from: Big John on March 22, 2023, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 22, 2023, 06:04:13 PM
– May the Fourth be with you.
– And also with you.
The Vatican recently changed "And also with you" to "And with your spirit".
I was unaffected. I grew up Lutheran and now attend a Baptist church.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/913/758/a12.jpg)
Quote from: kphoger on March 22, 2023, 06:04:13 PM
– May the Fourth be with you.
– And also with you.
It is. Even though I'm not a member as a Knight I have to accept it as being part of our organization despite my not participating in it.
Looks like the mods are still trying to save this thread by deleting a bunch of posts. The ship may have sailed at this point...
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 22, 2023, 06:43:47 PM
Looks like the mods are still trying to save this thread by deleting a bunch of posts. The ship may have sailed at this point...
I prefer deletions and keeping the thread alive rather than a lock.
Quote from: 1 on March 22, 2023, 06:44:32 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 22, 2023, 06:43:47 PM
Looks like the mods are still trying to save this thread by deleting a bunch of posts. The ship may have sailed at this point...
I prefer deletions and keeping the thread alive rather than a lock.
I don't really think that there is much worth saving in this thread. It got into religious content like a few pages ago.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 03:25:14 PM
That update on Freeways of Los Angeles this morning made me do a double take. That's one of the strictest Facebook groups I'm a member of. I know some of the backstory of how things got how they are on this group but I have to wonder how tenable it will be now long term.
Don't get me wrong, I like the admin of the Freeways or Los Angeles page. He did ask me to post more fairly recently when I was speaking with him on a group call. I didn't want to tell him the reason I don't is because all the posts by group members have to be approved and it takes to long for my tastes.
What is the backstory? In what ways are they strict?
If he really wanted you to post more, he would add you to the preapproved list so your posts wouldn't have to be manually approved.
Quote from: bugo on March 22, 2023, 11:14:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 03:25:14 PM
That update on Freeways of Los Angeles this morning made me do a double take. That's one of the strictest Facebook groups I'm a member of. I know some of the backstory of how things got how they are on this group but I have to wonder how tenable it will be now long term.
Don't get me wrong, I like the admin of the Freeways or Los Angeles page. He did ask me to post more fairly recently when I was speaking with him on a group call. I didn't want to tell him the reason I don't is because all the posts by group members have to be approved and it takes to long for my tastes.
What is the backstory? In what ways are they strict?
If he really wanted you to post more, he would add you to the preapproved list so your posts wouldn't have to be manually approved.
There was an incident a couple years ago where a former forum user tried to copyright claim several shared photos from his page in numerous California Highway groups. Since then the admin of Freeways of Los Angeles has put in the post approval and tends to be cautious. The group content tends to run very high but it also leads to viable posts being missed and/or deleted without much explanation.
I tend to not run things quite as strict in groups I manage but I can respect the rationale.
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 04:56:37 PM
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.
I don't think racism or homophobia should be taken down unless the post in question is abusive towards someone else. Simply stating one's beliefs, no matter how bad, shouldn't be reprimanded unless it's a forbidden topic.
Yes it should. Please express your racism and homophobia here.
Quote from: Alps on March 23, 2023, 12:00:07 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 04:56:37 PM
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.
I don't think racism or homophobia should be taken down unless the post in question is abusive towards someone else. Simply stating one's beliefs, no matter how bad, shouldn't be reprimanded unless it's a forbidden topic.
Yes it should. Please express your racism and homophobia here.
I like don't understand what you are trying to say
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 23, 2023, 01:37:08 AM
Quote from: Alps on March 23, 2023, 12:00:07 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 04:56:37 PM
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.
I don't think racism or homophobia should be taken down unless the post in question is abusive towards someone else. Simply stating one's beliefs, no matter how bad, shouldn't be reprimanded unless it's a forbidden topic.
Yes it should. Please express your racism and homophobia here.
I like don't understand what you are trying to say
You are not required to respond to every post. In fact, you should not feel compelled to do so.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 23, 2023, 01:37:08 AM
Quote from: Alps on March 23, 2023, 12:00:07 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 04:56:37 PM
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.
I don't think racism or homophobia should be taken down unless the post in question is abusive towards someone else. Simply stating one's beliefs, no matter how bad, shouldn't be reprimanded unless it's a forbidden topic.
Yes it should. Please express your racism and homophobia here.
I like don't understand what you are trying to say
I think it's basically this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_be_a_giant_dick,_so_we_can_ban_you
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 22, 2023, 11:20:39 PM
Quote from: bugo on March 22, 2023, 11:14:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 03:25:14 PM
That update on Freeways of Los Angeles this morning made me do a double take. That's one of the strictest Facebook groups I'm a member of. I know some of the backstory of how things got how they are on this group but I have to wonder how tenable it will be now long term.
Don't get me wrong, I like the admin of the Freeways or Los Angeles page. He did ask me to post more fairly recently when I was speaking with him on a group call. I didn't want to tell him the reason I don't is because all the posts by group members have to be approved and it takes to long for my tastes.
What is the backstory? In what ways are they strict?
If he really wanted you to post more, he would add you to the preapproved list so your posts wouldn't have to be manually approved.
There was an incident a couple years ago where a former forum user tried to copyright claim several shared photos from his page in numerous California Highway groups. Since then the admin of Freeways of Los Angeles has put in the post approval and tends to be cautious. The group content tends to run very high but it also leads to viable posts being missed and/or deleted without much explanation.
I tend to not run things quite as strict in groups I manage but I can respect the rationale.
That's a feature/bug of Facebook. It allows sharing from practically any source. Maybe the guy should watermark his photos on his site if he doesn't want them shared on social media.
This is at the root of some news organizations' complaints against Facebook for taking away ad revenue from them. If these companies want ad revenue from Facebook posts, then why do they maintain Facebook presences and post their stories there? If you click on a Facebook post, and you go to that news outlet's Web site, you see the ads. Facebook drives traffic to them.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 23, 2023, 11:00:36 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 22, 2023, 11:20:39 PM
Quote from: bugo on March 22, 2023, 11:14:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 09, 2023, 03:25:14 PM
That update on Freeways of Los Angeles this morning made me do a double take. That's one of the strictest Facebook groups I'm a member of. I know some of the backstory of how things got how they are on this group but I have to wonder how tenable it will be now long term.
Don't get me wrong, I like the admin of the Freeways or Los Angeles page. He did ask me to post more fairly recently when I was speaking with him on a group call. I didn't want to tell him the reason I don't is because all the posts by group members have to be approved and it takes to long for my tastes.
What is the backstory? In what ways are they strict?
If he really wanted you to post more, he would add you to the preapproved list so your posts wouldn't have to be manually approved.
There was an incident a couple years ago where a former forum user tried to copyright claim several shared photos from his page in numerous California Highway groups. Since then the admin of Freeways of Los Angeles has put in the post approval and tends to be cautious. The group content tends to run very high but it also leads to viable posts being missed and/or deleted without much explanation.
I tend to not run things quite as strict in groups I manage but I can respect the rationale.
That's a feature/bug of Facebook. It allows sharing from practically any source. Maybe the guy should watermark his photos on his site if he doesn't want them shared on social media.
This is at the root of some news organizations' complaints against Facebook for taking away ad revenue from them. If these companies want ad revenue from Facebook posts, then why do they maintain Facebook presences and post their stories there? If you click on a Facebook post, and you go to that news outlet's Web site, you see the ads. Facebook drives traffic to them.
I believe he did begin watermarking after said incident.
Me personally, it doesn't bother me too much if someone does it. That said, I recently blocked a repeat offender who used several of my photos and didn't credit me. Normally in the instances I've found where someone has taken a photo of mine and didn't credit me I'll usually comment on the post (if I'm made aware of it). At the end of the day Facebook compresses the hell out of photos and it is easy to prove you have the original copy simply by file size. Personally I think watermarks tend to look ugly and I generally don't use them.
Quote from: Big John on March 22, 2023, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 22, 2023, 06:04:13 PM
– May the Fourth be with you.
– And also with you.
The Vatican recently changed "And also with you" to "And with your spirit".
It wasn't a change. It reflects the use of a literal translation instead of the "interpretation" many of us grew up hearing. In Latin, the response to "Dominus vobiscum" is "Et cum spiritu tuo."
So, back to the topic... How would you define "countertrolling"? Who was doing that and who was doing something else?
Is engaging with the troll in an intelligent way "countertrolling"?
Is calling the troll names and disparaging his ideas "countertrolling"?
Is creating threads parodying the troll "countertrolling"?
Etc?
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2023, 10:13:25 AM
So, back to the topic... How would you define "countertrolling"? Who was doing that and who was doing something else?
Is engaging with the troll in an intelligent way "countertrolling"?
Is calling the troll names and disparaging his ideas "countertrolling"?
Is creating threads parodying the troll "countertrolling"?
Etc?
At some point, engaging with a troll at all isn't good, because its attention that they want. So at first, engaging with them is okay, but when it's clear they won't take the hint, it's best to ignore them.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 24, 2023, 10:24:40 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2023, 10:13:25 AM
So, back to the topic... How would you define "countertrolling"? Who was doing that and who was doing something else?
Is engaging with the troll in an intelligent way "countertrolling"?
Is calling the troll names and disparaging his ideas "countertrolling"?
Is creating threads parodying the troll "countertrolling"?
Etc?
At some point, engaging with a troll at all isn't good, because its attention that they want. So at first, engaging with them is okay, but when it's clear they won't take the hint, it's best to ignore them.
Right. That has already been established. But is that automatically "countertrolling"? To me, the term "countertrolling" implies an intention to perpetuate the chaos. I don't think it was the intention of most of us to do that.
You could argue that we did by letting the MMM thread get to 84 pages. And that's just one thread.
Countertrolling may not be the right term. It's just straight up engaging the troll.
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2023, 10:13:25 AM
So, back to the topic... How would you define "countertrolling"? Who was doing that and who was doing something else?
Is engaging with the troll in an intelligent way "countertrolling"?
Is calling the troll names and disparaging his ideas "countertrolling"?
Is creating threads parodying the troll "countertrolling"?
Etc?
I agree with JoePCool. I would say
yes to all three questions, based on the premise of the question in the OP:
Quote from: roadman65 on March 08, 2023, 03:25:05 PM
Is this what we should be doing? Feeding a hungry troll? After all his one reason is obvious for being here: He wants attention. Should we give him that?
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 24, 2023, 10:31:38 AM
You could argue that we did by letting the MMM thread get to 84 pages. And that's just one thread.
Countertrolling may not be the right term. It's just straight up engaging the troll.
And 18 pages more in this thread after he's gone.
I think MMM has a reason to be proud!
To be fair, a lot of this thread has been discussing how to deal with other trolls or alt accounts in the future, and some other unrelated, off topic discussion. Only a few of those pages were directly about MMM, and that's because people wanted to know his ultimate fate.
I've already given my opinions on what I'd like to see in the future regarding trolls.
Quote from: kalvado on March 24, 2023, 10:49:42 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 24, 2023, 10:31:38 AM
You could argue that we did by letting the MMM thread get to 84 pages. And that's just one thread.
Countertrolling may not be the right term. It's just straight up engaging the troll.
And 18 pages more in this thread after he's gone.
I think MMM has a reason to be proud!
At least his threads aren't the hot topic on the recent post board and it's back to seeing many different topics like it always was.
Like someone else said, you post something on his thread. Leave and come back later and fifteen other posts were posted in a short time causing you to have to go through them all to be up to speed.
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 24, 2023, 06:38:04 PM
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
I for one stopped reading most of his threads. There were just too many posts!
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 24, 2023, 06:38:04 PM
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
I would rely more on people reporting things as problematic. Blanket reading for moderating is a bit too much effort IMHO...
Quote from: kalvado on March 24, 2023, 09:36:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 24, 2023, 06:38:04 PM
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
I would rely more on people reporting things as problematic. Blanket reading for moderating is a bit too much effort IMHO...
I mean, it's not like I'm not going to read most of it anyway.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 24, 2023, 06:38:04 PM
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
Multiple times on threads I have said something only to learn that it was said earlier in big threads.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 25, 2023, 02:24:43 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 24, 2023, 06:38:04 PM
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
Multiple times on threads I have said something only to learn that it was said earlier in big threads.
You don't have to reply to every thread.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 25, 2023, 03:27:44 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 25, 2023, 02:24:43 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 24, 2023, 06:38:04 PM
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
Multiple times on threads I have said something only to learn that it was said earlier in big threads.
You don't have to reply to every thread.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 14, 2023, 07:41:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 14, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
.... I don't have fun engaging with trolls but I often can't stop myself from doing so. I also wouldn't call FritzOwl a troll IMO.I also have a tendency to try to "fix" the trolls and turn them into reliable members of the forum. ....
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/0d1d3d98d4e5655ebe32e82fa2bf9eaa.jpg)
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 24, 2023, 06:38:04 PM
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
Not me so much, but other users. I always replied to the most recent as I'm not into getting into the many arguments he was in.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 24, 2023, 06:38:04 PM
I wonder why anyone felt the need to be "up to speed" on them. I mean, I kind of have to read (or at least skim) everything to see if there's anything I need to moderate. You guys have the freedom to not do that. I certainly would have availed myself of it after a certain point if I had had the option.
I'm in the same boat.
The person wasn't a troll, per se, but what various forums define as a "lolcow." In other words, a punching bag who's picked on so the other forum members can feel better about themselves by comparison. And seeing this behavior get out of hand is borne from sadness. It's about as sad, if not sadder, than the ridiculous ideas posed by the punching bag himself.
I'm more supportive of a forum where the tropes are goofy road signs and road design decisions, rather than a forum where the tropes are certain members themselves. And we should be careful about who we mock and ostracize; we should separate people who propose harmful ideas into a separate category from people who propose unusual ideas.
I'm not a mod so I don't have a horse in this race per se, but that's just how this forum member feels. No, countertrolling is not the answer, especially when the one accused of trolling was just unusual and wasn't trolling in the first place. My thought is to get the mods involved if a rule break occurs or if something promotes real harm.
Quote from: 1 on March 12, 2023, 01:47:27 PM
I have received an email from him. Key points:
[...]
Most of the topics were trolling ...
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 29, 2023, 11:08:26 AM
No, countertrolling is not the answer, especially when the one accused of trolling was just unusual and wasn't trolling in the first place.
I just want to point out that he
was trolling. He said so himself.
Quote from: kphoger on March 29, 2023, 11:21:34 AM
I just want to point out that he was trolling. He said so himself.
Not to go down this road again... but it is basically unheard of for a true troll to admit to trolling. It's a sign that he was somewhat conscious of what he was doing, but also wasn't very good at it.
Quote from: webny99 on March 29, 2023, 11:58:55 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 29, 2023, 11:21:34 AM
I just want to point out that he was trolling. He said so himself.
Not to go down this road again... but it is basically unheard of for a true troll to admit to trolling. It's a sign that he was somewhat conscious of what he was doing, but also wasn't very good at it.
At times you can get the troll to admit they were trolling when outside of the venue they were doing so.
I highly doubt MMM cares about his legacy here, because he's either never coming back or he's creating a third sock puppet that will just get caught and banned pretty quickly. Since he doesn't have any obligation to himself to keep up the ruse, he probably felt comfortable admitting it.
Quote from: kphoger on March 29, 2023, 11:21:34 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 12, 2023, 01:47:27 PM
I have received an email from him. Key points:
[...]
Most of the topics were trolling ...
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 29, 2023, 11:08:26 AM
No, countertrolling is not the answer, especially when the one accused of trolling was just unusual and wasn't trolling in the first place.
I just want to point out that he was trolling. He said so himself.
To be factual, it was a 3rd party that said he said he was trolling. We can choose to believe that the post and the email was truthful, but he didn't exactly say so himself here.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2023, 12:22:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 29, 2023, 11:21:34 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 12, 2023, 01:47:27 PM
I have received an email from him. Key points:
[...]
Most of the topics were trolling ...
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 29, 2023, 11:08:26 AM
No, countertrolling is not the answer, especially when the one accused of trolling was just unusual and wasn't trolling in the first place.
I just want to point out that he was trolling. He said so himself.
To be factual, it was a 3rd party that said he said he was trolling. We can choose to believe that the post and the email was truthful, but he didn't exactly say so himself here.
Under the circumstances, what difference does it make? It's not like he could actually say so himself at this point.
I mean, he certainly passes the duck test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_duck_test) to me.
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Well MMM has been banned already, so that should be proof enough, as he wasn't getting banned pre discovery.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Here is the definition of
trolling: to make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.I am not disputing that's what MMM was doing, but I maintain that his activity was really pretty mild trolling, even by this forum's standards. And because MMM managed to stay around for so long and even shared some personal information here, there was reason not to write him off immediately, and to think that he at least had some potential to contribute in a non-trolling matter.
It really doesn't matter now, and I'm not trying to defend MMM, but the discourse surrounding him seems to have gotten so extended and dramatized that I think it is worth pointing out he wasn't really
that bad. But maybe his blurring of the line between acceptable and non-acceptable activity is partly why we're still so fascinated with him, even though we should have just closed the book and moved on long ago (which, ironically, is exactly what we would have done with a more egregious troll).
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 29, 2023, 11:50:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Well MMM has been banned already, so that should be proof enough, as he wasn't getting banned pre discovery.
If I understand correctly, the ban was because of the sockpuppet, not because his forum activity was determined to be trolling.
Quote from: webny99 on March 29, 2023, 11:53:49 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 29, 2023, 11:50:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Well MMM has been banned already, so that should be proof enough, as he wasn't getting banned pre discovery.
If I understand correctly, the ban was because of the sockpuppet, not because his forum activity was determined to be trolling.
If trolling were to be the cause of his ban he would have been banned much earlier on.
Quote from: webny99 on March 29, 2023, 11:52:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Here is the definition of trolling: to make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
I am not disputing that's what MMM was doing, but I maintain that his activity was really pretty mild trolling, even by this forum's standards. And because MMM managed to stay around for so long and even shared some personal information here, there was reason not to write him off immediately, and to think that he at least had some potential to contribute in a non-trolling matter.
It really doesn't matter now, and I'm not trying to defend MMM, but the discourse surrounding him seems to have gotten so extended and dramatized that I think it is worth pointing out he wasn't really that bad. But maybe his blurring of the line between acceptable and non-acceptable activity is partly why we're still so fascinated with him, even though we should have just closed the book and moved on long ago (which, ironically, is exactly what we would have done with a more egregious troll).
I'm not claiming the guy was Crash_It. All the same, he was clearly trying to get a rise out of the forum numerous times. Yeah sure, when it was confined to his own threads it was mostly harmless aside from being annoying. Trouble was he wrecked a lot of legitimate threads by way of polluting them with his crazed ideas and thoughts on all manner of things.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 11:59:41 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 29, 2023, 11:52:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Here is the definition of trolling: to make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
I am not disputing that's what MMM was doing, but I maintain that his activity was really pretty mild trolling, even by this forum's standards. And because MMM managed to stay around for so long and even shared some personal information here, there was reason not to write him off immediately, and to think that he at least had some potential to contribute in a non-trolling matter.
It really doesn't matter now, and I'm not trying to defend MMM, but the discourse surrounding him seems to have gotten so extended and dramatized that I think it is worth pointing out he wasn't really that bad. But maybe his blurring of the line between acceptable and non-acceptable activity is partly why we're still so fascinated with him, even though we should have just closed the book and moved on long ago (which, ironically, is exactly what we would have done with a more egregious troll).
I'm not claiming the guy was Crash_It. All the same, he was clearly trying to get a rise out of the forum numerous times. Yeah sure, when it was confined to his own threads it was mostly harmless aside from being annoying. Trouble was he wrecked a lot of legitimate threads by way of polluting them with his crazed ideas and thoughts on all manner of things.
It's really hard to moderate, because what is the meaning of "wrecking" a thread?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
You miss the things he talked about in regards to TNG?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
You miss the things he talked about in regards to TNG?
I still can't tell exactly what TNG is talking about. You talking about star trek?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:00:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
You miss the things he talked about in regards to TNG?
I still can't tell exactly what TNG is talking about. You talking about star trek?
The Next Generation specifically.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
He touched a very real problem. If you're uncomfortable discussing real but upsetting things... Well, this is an entertainment forum, proceed to the next thread. But problems are still there for many of us. For example, I have a cousin who is deep in stage 4 right now... It is what it is.
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
He touched a very real problem. If you're uncomfortable discussing real but upsetting things... Well, this is an entertainment forum, proceed to the next thread. But problems are still there for many of us. For example, I have a cousin who is deep in stage 4 right now... It is what it is.
It is a real problem, but I did not enjoy reading about it on the forum. I find school shootings to be upsetting, but if I tried to create a thread about the recent one it would be locked within hours. I learned by lesson when I tried posting about the George Floyd protests in Minnesota. Anyway, it wasn't that big of a deal though, although I did let others know that I did not enjoy thinking about it.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:38:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
He touched a very real problem. If you're uncomfortable discussing real but upsetting things... Well, this is an entertainment forum, proceed to the next thread. But problems are still there for many of us. For example, I have a cousin who is deep in stage 4 right now... It is what it is.
It is a real problem, but I did not enjoy reading about it on the forum. I find school shootings to be upsetting, but if I tried to create a thread about the recent one it would be locked within hours. I learned by lesson when I tried posting about the George Floyd protests in Minnesota. Anyway, it wasn't that big of a deal though, although I did let others know that I did not enjoy thinking about it.
Floyd became politically charged pretty quickly, and politics is a great way to destroy any discussion. School shootings can easily become political as well once a certain amendment is brought up.
Kids medical problems are much less political, at least originally...
If you can cleverly do so, then yeah I suppose that could be an option when dealing with trolls.
I should mention that my statement on my position that countertrolling is not the answer, is not an announcement that I will lay dormant and simply welcome trolling. That wasn't a cue to start trolling me in other threads. :rofl:
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:38:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
He touched a very real problem. If you're uncomfortable discussing real but upsetting things... Well, this is an entertainment forum, proceed to the next thread. But problems are still there for many of us. For example, I have a cousin who is deep in stage 4 right now... It is what it is.
It is a real problem, but I did not enjoy reading about it on the forum. I find school shootings to be upsetting, but if I tried to create a thread about the recent one it would be locked within hours. I learned by lesson when I tried posting about the George Floyd protests in Minnesota. Anyway, it wasn't that big of a deal though, although I did let others know that I did not enjoy thinking about it.
Floyd became politically charged pretty quickly, and politics is a great way to destroy any discussion. School shootings can easily become political as well once a certain amendment is brought up.
Kids medical problems are much less political, at least originally...
You don't think that child medical problems are political? It gets political real quick... Did you see all of the debates over parents rights lately?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 07:08:01 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:38:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
He touched a very real problem. If you're uncomfortable discussing real but upsetting things... Well, this is an entertainment forum, proceed to the next thread. But problems are still there for many of us. For example, I have a cousin who is deep in stage 4 right now... It is what it is.
It is a real problem, but I did not enjoy reading about it on the forum. I find school shootings to be upsetting, but if I tried to create a thread about the recent one it would be locked within hours. I learned by lesson when I tried posting about the George Floyd protests in Minnesota. Anyway, it wasn't that big of a deal though, although I did let others know that I did not enjoy thinking about it.
Floyd became politically charged pretty quickly, and politics is a great way to destroy any discussion. School shootings can easily become political as well once a certain amendment is brought up.
Kids medical problems are much less political, at least originally...
You don't think that child medical problems are political? It gets political real quick... Did you see all of the debates over parents rights lately?
Less political. Anything can be made political, but child health is much less abstract concept than many issues. It brings Avery real compassion aspect into discussion.
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 07:14:17 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 07:08:01 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:38:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
He touched a very real problem. If you're uncomfortable discussing real but upsetting things... Well, this is an entertainment forum, proceed to the next thread. But problems are still there for many of us. For example, I have a cousin who is deep in stage 4 right now... It is what it is.
It is a real problem, but I did not enjoy reading about it on the forum. I find school shootings to be upsetting, but if I tried to create a thread about the recent one it would be locked within hours. I learned by lesson when I tried posting about the George Floyd protests in Minnesota. Anyway, it wasn't that big of a deal though, although I did let others know that I did not enjoy thinking about it.
Floyd became politically charged pretty quickly, and politics is a great way to destroy any discussion. School shootings can easily become political as well once a certain amendment is brought up.
Kids medical problems are much less political, at least originally...
You don't think that child medical problems are political? It gets political real quick... Did you see all of the debates over parents rights lately?
Less political. Anything can be made political, but child health is much less abstract concept than many issues. It brings Avery real compassion aspect into discussion.
The abstract nature of MMM's posting coupled with his alleged pampered life style didn't lend him much credibility (at least for me) when discussing matters such as the plight of American youth
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 03:11:56 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:00:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
You miss the things he talked about in regards to TNG?
I still can't tell exactly what TNG is talking about. You talking about star trek?
The Next Generation specifically.
He had a point there. Everyone remembers the episode where Dr. Crusher read her grandmother's erotic diary and had sex with a psychic ghost candle, right?
Quote from: vdeane on March 30, 2023, 08:21:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 03:11:56 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:00:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
You miss the things he talked about in regards to TNG?
I still can't tell exactly what TNG is talking about. You talking about star trek?
The Next Generation specifically.
He had a point there. Everyone remembers the episode where Dr. Crusher read her grandmother's erotic diary and had sex with a psychic ghost candle, right?
The wank-worthiness of that specific content seems lacking.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 08:57:57 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 30, 2023, 08:21:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 03:11:56 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:00:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
You miss the things he talked about in regards to TNG?
I still can't tell exactly what TNG is talking about. You talking about star trek?
The Next Generation specifically.
He had a point there. Everyone remembers the episode where Dr. Crusher read her grandmother's erotic diary and had sex with a psychic ghost candle, right?
The wank-worthiness of that specific content seems lacking.
Ah, "Sub Rosa".
I saw a review of that episode that compared it to a trashy paperback romance novel.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 08:57:57 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 30, 2023, 08:21:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 03:11:56 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:00:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
You miss the things he talked about in regards to TNG?
I still can't tell exactly what TNG is talking about. You talking about star trek?
The Next Generation specifically.
He had a point there. Everyone remembers the episode where Dr. Crusher read her grandmother's erotic diary and had sex with a psychic ghost candle, right?
The wank-worthiness of that specific content seems lacking.
Depends, was Whoopi in the episode?
Quote from: SectorZ on March 31, 2023, 08:17:10 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 08:57:57 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 30, 2023, 08:21:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 03:11:56 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 03:00:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 30, 2023, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
Does anyone seriously believe MMM wasn't a troll at this point on the basis of his own post content? If you were on the fence how is a second hand account from someone credible like 1 not enough evidence?
Problem was not with the troll, but with his zookepers.
A well-trained properly maintained troll, who is not ofed on a regular basis, grows long white fur and doesn't bite people around him.
To be completely honest, it was fun to argue with MMM at times. It was only when he started talking about child abuse did it go from fun to upsetting and uncomfortable.
You miss the things he talked about in regards to TNG?
I still can't tell exactly what TNG is talking about. You talking about star trek?
The Next Generation specifically.
He had a point there. Everyone remembers the episode where Dr. Crusher read her grandmother's erotic diary and had sex with a psychic ghost candle, right?
The wank-worthiness of that specific content seems lacking.
Depends, was Whoopi in the episode?
MMM did elude to it being Dr. Crusher oriented.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 07:08:01 PM
You don't think that child medical problems are political? It gets political real quick... Did you see all of the debates over parents rights lately?
Please stop the "everything is political"
schtick for a while. The media of all types and morass of social media simpletons will have you believe everything is a wedge subject to enrage and control thought.
Either talk about the subject or don't talk about it at all, let the mods be that guide; otherwise it's a misguided attempt to shut down conversation you're not prepared for before it even starts.
Quote from: formulanone on March 31, 2023, 09:12:37 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 07:08:01 PM
You don't think that child medical problems are political? It gets political real quick... Did you see all of the debates over parents rights lately?
Please stop the "everything is political" schtick for a while. The media of all types and morass of social media simpletons will have you believe everything is a wedge subject to enrage and control thought.
Either talk about the subject or don't talk about it at all, let the mods be that guide; otherwise it's a misguided attempt to shut down conversation you're not prepared for before it even starts.
I won't go as far as saying "everything is political," but lots of things are ideological. And some of those things do become political.
Does anyone else get the feeling that MMM is reading this forum as a guest, basking in all the attention he's "posthumously" receiving?
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:18:38 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that MMM is reading this forum as a guest, basking in all the attention he's "posthumously" receiving?
Everyone is
still feeding the troll.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2023, 10:32:21 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:18:38 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that MMM is reading this forum as a guest, basking in all the attention he's "posthumously" receiving?
Everyone is still feeding the troll.
Only if we're talking specifically about him. Which some of us still are for some reason...
Maybe this thread has ran its course.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 31, 2023, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2023, 10:32:21 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:18:38 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that MMM is reading this forum as a guest, basking in all the attention he's "posthumously" receiving?
Everyone is still feeding the troll.
Only if we're talking specifically about him. Which some of us still are for some reason...
Maybe this thread has ran its course.
Or maybe some people got too involved with MMM and not need a series of
rabies troll shot?
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 30, 2023, 06:27:26 PM
I should mention that my statement on my position that countertrolling is not the answer, is not an announcement that I will lay dormant and simply welcome trolling. That wasn't a cue to start trolling me in other threads. :rofl:
This prompts me to wonder: for those of you who have been active in other forum environments over the years, and who saw the 'starve the troll' idea in action... Did it work? When people stopped engaging the troll, did the trolling actually stop? Or is this all just a theory so far?
I imagine it would probably work most of the time. But I also imagine there are probably trolls out there who would keep it up.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2023, 10:32:21 AM
Everyone is still feeding the troll.
Are we feeding the troll, or are we eating him?
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 12:20:20 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 30, 2023, 06:27:26 PM
I should mention that my statement on my position that countertrolling is not the answer, is not an announcement that I will lay dormant and simply welcome trolling. That wasn't a cue to start trolling me in other threads. :rofl:
This prompts me to wonder: for those of you who have been active in other forum environments over the years, and who saw the 'starve the troll' idea in action... Did it work? When people stopped engaging the troll, did the trolling actually stop? Or is this all just a theory so far?
I imagine it would probably work most of the time. But I also imagine there are probably trolls out there who would keep it up.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2023, 10:32:21 AM
Everyone is still feeding the troll.
Are we feeding the troll, or are we eating him?
Worst antitroll thing I saw is a shadowban....
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 12:20:20 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 30, 2023, 06:27:26 PM
I should mention that my statement on my position that countertrolling is not the answer, is not an announcement that I will lay dormant and simply welcome trolling. That wasn't a cue to start trolling me in other threads. :rofl:
This prompts me to wonder: for those of you who have been active in other forum environments over the years, and who saw the 'starve the troll' idea in action... Did it work? When people stopped engaging the troll, did the trolling actually stop? Or is this all just a theory so far?
I imagine it would probably work most of the time. But I also imagine there are probably trolls out there who would keep it up.
Ignoring Calrog worked as well as could be expected on MTR. Yes, he still pimped his pictures and videos. But if no one replied to any of his stuff, it cut down on his traffic. When it became obvious that correcting him on his use of the term "federal route" served no purpose, the signal-to-noise ratio improved.
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 12:20:20 PMThis prompts me to wonder: for those of you who have been active in other forum environments over the years, and who saw the 'starve the troll' idea in action... Did it work? When people stopped engaging the troll, did the trolling actually stop? Or is this all just a theory so far?
The purest example I can think of dates from the mid-noughties when members of alt.usenet.kook (AUK) briefly invaded MTR, had their fun, and moved on. We also had what I think must have been a lolcow, describing herself as a doctoral student in psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, who mysteriously had nothing to say and left soon after I suggested she was trolling for her PhD. So, yes, it
can happen, but it does not do so with any frequency, and it is not a strategy that is guaranteed to work since all it takes is one reactive person in the conversation to give the troll his or her food.
Having moderators who can see off trolls is a game-changer, but even then some of the benefits diminish over time because trolls react to moderation by playing to the mods. This, I think, is the real pitfall of a more aggressive approach to moderation--we could get rid of the more egregious actors in summary fashion, only to find the rest carefully map out just how far they can go without attracting moderator action.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:18:38 AM
Quote from: formulanone on March 31, 2023, 09:12:37 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 30, 2023, 07:08:01 PM
You don't think that child medical problems are political? It gets political real quick... Did you see all of the debates over parents rights lately?
Please stop the "everything is political" schtick for a while. The media of all types and morass of social media simpletons will have you believe everything is a wedge subject to enrage and control thought.
Either talk about the subject or don't talk about it at all, let the mods be that guide; otherwise it's a misguided attempt to shut down conversation you're not prepared for before it even starts.
I won't go as far as saying "everything is political," but lots of things are ideological. And some of those things do become political.
Does anyone else get the feeling that MMM is reading this forum as a guest, basking in all the attention he's "posthumously" receiving?
Yes.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2023, 10:32:21 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:18:38 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that MMM is reading this forum as a guest, basking in all the attention he's "posthumously" receiving?
Everyone is still feeding the troll.
^This.
And this is why we're doomed to have another one.
I still think a more recent hawker of YouTube videos on here was less prevalent when people didn't give him the time of day.
Let's forget about MMM. He's gone. No need to hypothesize on his behavior. The world is full of strange folks.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 31, 2023, 05:48:17 PM
The world is full of strange folks.
And 6% of them are members of this forum.
:wave:
True, especially when we have a bunch here on the spectrum.
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 05:50:46 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 31, 2023, 05:48:17 PM
The world is full of strange folks.
And 6% of them are members of this forum.
:wave:
Wow, I didn't know this forum had 474 million users.
[/quote]
Does anyone else get the feeling that MMM is reading this forum as a guest, basking in all the attention he's "posthumously" receiving?
[/quote]
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=16214
Look at his last login. It was post ban.
Quote from: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 06:07:01 PM
Wow, I didn't know this forum had 474 million users.
The world is full of strange folks, but not every person in the world is strange. That's not how language works. For example...
Chicago is full of museums. This does not mean there are no apartment buildings or restaurants there.
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 06:23:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 06:07:01 PM
Wow, I didn't know this forum had 474 million users.
The world is full of strange folks, but not every person in the world is strange. That's not how language works.
How language works is irrelevant here, though: I just disagree that not every person is strange (at least as an objective statement).
Quote from: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 07:47:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 06:23:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 06:07:01 PM
Wow, I didn't know this forum had 474 million users.
The world is full of strange folks, but not every person in the world is strange. That's not how language works.
How language works is irrelevant here, though: I just disagree that not every person is strange (at least as an objective statement).
Strange is all relative. Or maybe just a few relatives. Sometimes you don't know how weird (or normal-ish) things are in your own family until you meet a few more of them. Then we reshuffle our deck of People We Know and arrange them in an order, putting some in different margins because that's how we roll.
If faces come out of the rain, then you're strange. If streets are uneven when you're down, you're a roadgeek.
Strange is also subjective. Just depends on your societal norms.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 31, 2023, 08:25:50 PM
Strange is also subjective. Just depends on your societal norms.
https://youtu.be/sezc05A4s2g
Opposite of "charm" in subatomic quarks:
(https://www.lorecentral.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/modele-standard-1-384x384.jpg)
Quote from: formulanone on March 31, 2023, 07:57:16 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 07:47:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 06:23:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 06:07:01 PM
Wow, I didn't know this forum had 474 million users.
The world is full of strange folks, but not every person in the world is strange. That's not how language works.
How language works is irrelevant here, though: I just disagree that not every person is strange (at least as an objective statement).
Strange is all relative. Or maybe just a few relatives. Sometimes you don't know how weird (or normal-ish) things are in your own family until you meet a few more of them. Then we reshuffle our deck of People We Know and arrange them in an order, putting some in different margins because that's how we roll.
If faces come out of the rain, then you're strange. If streets are uneven when you're down, you're a roadgeek.
Pretty much everything is relative. Once someone knows something and it becomes their norm, they become desensitized to it, then are often surprised when others don't know it.
For roads, work in a toll booth (one of the few that exist anymore). You'll get questions that make you realize what a scary world it is alongside others at 70 mph.
There was a guy a few years ago in some of the road-related Facebook groups who was downloading pictures from the groups and offering prints of them for sale on his website. He's been permabanned from any of the groups that I run. He recently tried to join a couple of them, but I declined his requests.
Does anybody remember Tom From Ohio? He had massive heel heat back in the day, but a lot of old school road guys look back on him fondly for some reason.
Quote from: bugo on April 12, 2023, 02:23:29 PM
Does anybody remember Tom From Ohio? He had massive heel heat back in the day, but a lot of old school road guys look back on him fondly for some reason.
(https://i.redd.it/8xr5dh4j2qb51.jpg)
Quote from: Takumi on April 12, 2023, 08:12:14 PM
Quote from: bugo on April 12, 2023, 02:23:29 PM
Does anybody remember Tom From Ohio? He had massive heel heat back in the day, but a lot of old school road guys look back on him fondly for some reason.
(https://i.redd.it/8xr5dh4j2qb51.jpg)
You, sir, win the Internet for the day.
Quote from: bugo on April 12, 2023, 02:23:29 PM
Does anybody remember Tom From Ohio? He had massive heel heat back in the day, but a lot of old school road guys look back on him fondly for some reason.
DUAAFAFO.
Also: My testicles: Deez Nuts?
Quote from: roadman65 on March 08, 2023, 03:25:05 PM
Is this what we should be doing? Feeding a hungry troll?
Clearly, the answer is yes.
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2024, 04:22:35 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 08, 2023, 03:25:05 PM
Is this what we should be doing? Feeding a hungry troll?
Clearly, the answer is yes.
Concerning anything to do with the fandom of Poiponen:
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/0Lox1W4hKPsAAAAd/i-dont-get-it-clueless.gif)
Much have a P13 to troll than the grand priest of the Church of Wallethub again.
Quote from: bugo on April 12, 2023, 02:23:29 PM
Does anybody remember Tom From Ohio? He had massive heel heat back in the day, but a lot of old school road guys look back on him fondly for some reason.
I think he did us all a favor and fucked off.
Quote from: Brandon on February 11, 2024, 07:41:52 PM
Quote from: bugo on April 12, 2023, 02:23:29 PM
Does anybody remember Tom From Ohio? He had massive heel heat back in the day, but a lot of old school road guys look back on him fondly for some reason.
I think he did us all a favor and fucked off.
Also, O-315 = I-870?
Quote from: formulanone on March 13, 2023, 06:12:31 PM
At the risk of sounding the Unpopular Asshole Alarm™, I feel the staff needs to act quicker in these situations.
Quackmaster General Mikey NumbersNYC trolled about a dozen threads and that toxicity quickly spills over into nearly every other thread.
I've been here 12 years and have never felt the need to suggest how to moderate; this isn't exactly a cause of any hurt feelings, but just how things can really get out of control with such a long leash.
On the other hand, there's a half dozen or so here that just don't know when to quit giving out admission passes to the shitshows.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 13, 2023, 06:13:57 PM
The thing is, he did not explicitly break any rules. He was annoying, but being annoying isn't against the rules.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 13, 2023, 06:17:49 PM
Right, that's kind of the key problem here. I don't want us to get to the point where someone can get moderated for having a stupid opinion. (If we did, I'd probably have to ban myself.) And we do need a clear rule we can point to when someone says "Why am I banned?"
Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
Why? I understand wanting to be fair and ethical, but limiting yourselves to a list of discrete rules isn't the same thing as being fair and ethical. That is to say, it is perfectly possible to be fair and ethical while banning a troll who hasn't technically broken any rules. This isn't a court of law: it's an internet forum, and common sense can carry the day just as easily as technicalities.
This guy wasn't just annoying. He didn't just have a stupid opinion. He was committing the internet version of arson, and you don't have to determine exactly how a fire started before grabbing a fire extinguisher. The answer to "Why am I banned?" could be as simple as "Because you were an asshole" and, while that would certainly be rude and perhaps uncalled for, it wouldn't make the ban itself unfair or unethical.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2023, 12:50:34 PM
It was certainly conceptually possible to ban MMM on that basis. It wouldn't even have been necessary to say something asshole-ish like "Because you were an asshole"--a formulation like "In our judgment, your posts fail to contribute to comity on the forum" would have sufficed. But how many members would be comfortable with us running the forum in that way? For better or for worse, the rules have evolved into an indirect mechanism for holding moderators to account.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2023, 09:37:22 PM
(I wrote this before reading J.N. Winkler's response, so some of this may be duplicative and/or already addressed in your response to him)
You're right, and in some situations, invoking plenary powers to perform a ban as discretion applies is probably justified. The problem, though, is that without a clear set of guidelines saying what an 'asshole' is, we risk allowing ourselves to identify anyone who is being a minor irritant as an 'asshole' and banning them. Basically, it would be a tool that might become too tempting to overuse, absolute power corrupting absolutely and all. That wouldn't be fair, and would arguably make the forum a worse place than it would be if we merely had to suffer a troll every now and then.
If the community feels like you have the right of it more than I do, however, and there's enough trust in the staff that they'd be okay with us having easier access to the banhammer in extraordinary cases, I can certainly be convinced that I'm overthinking it.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 15, 2024, 08:01:52 PM
A great many posts (and their replies) have been moved out of sight since they have been found to breach the clause in the forum guidelines that prohibits offensive content.
Please remember that this forum focuses primarily on roads, and facilities for general-interest discussion are provided as an adjunct. Reddit is a better venue for conversation on NSFW topics, such as sexual fetishes.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2024, 08:27:33 PM
I still contend that I suggested the inevitable/eventual solution right before this thread went to dark places. This is clearly circling the same drain others like tolbs and MMM already went down. I'm not understanding what due process is really owed at this point?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 16, 2024, 10:03:18 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 16, 2024, 08:39:47 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 16, 2024, 08:23:46 AM
I'm as guilty as anyone else of responding to the non-road-related stuff in this thread, but I would respectfully note that this thread itself has not really been related to "Fictional Highways" in quite some time (or, to the extent it has, it's been minimal)—see, for example, Poiponen's post quoted in Reply #3578 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32280.msg2907083#msg2907083). It's turned into the "Poiponen13 posts random thoughts and the rest of us ridicule them" thread. If the moderators are OK with that, then it's not my place to argue, but if Poiponen is unwilling or (more likely, I suspect) unable to control his scattershot random gibberish, then his postings seem to be inconsistent with your admonition about the forum's purpose. FritzOwl's posts—in a thread I do not follow—are, to his credit, at least road-related.
Yeah...this is well said.
Agreed. This entire thread is absolutely ridiculous and it's incredible it's gone on this long.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 16, 2024, 11:24:28 AM
Regarding self policing, I get that the idea here is to hope P13 is going fall in line shape up. I think most of us already know or have concluded by now that probably isn't going to happen. The mod staff to their credit has generally had far more patience than probably necessary. I do wonder though, how far does this have to go if stuff like yesterday wasn't enough to do P13 in?
Quote from: vdeane on February 16, 2024, 12:58:46 PM
Honestly, the degree of latitude Poiponen13 has been given is shocking. The COVID thread and DST threads were all locked for far less than what goes on in here or the Metrification thread (and I would argue that the DST threads were more interesting). tolbs took more flack for the Mary Hannah incident that Poiponen has over Sault Saint John Madden (even now!). And let's appreciate that his original comment about what he would like her to do in his house is still here (did the follow-up comments get really bad between when I was logged in that afternoon and when they got removed? Seems to me the original comment was worse, especially given her age). And everyone who doesn't have the word filter on knows her name.
Seriously, does Poiponen have blackmail on the mods or something? Seems like he gets away with a lot.
To me, it sounds like the community trusts the moderators enough these days to allow them easier access to the banhammer. There's a place for grace and patience, but this freak sardine salad burning in a dumpster fire is no longer the place for it.
Seriously, how long does it have to burn, and how high do the flames need to get? It's high time for the moderators to just grab the fire extinguisher, already.
(And, also, I'm sorry for pouring so much gasoline on yesterday.)
As I've stated before, the problem with issuing a ban for behavior like Poiponen is exhibiting is that it is very difficult to codify in a rule without resorting to a "I know it when I see it" type vagueness. And while I appreciate that the community would trust us to make such a determination on our own judgement, it raises the problem of how to defend such a determination when the banned user comes calling demanding an explanation.
This is, unfortunately, not a question that we can skate by on. Since the last time we had a discussion like this, we had a banned user dig up the entire staff's phone numbers and leave all of us harassing voicemails. One staff member's wife was even targeted. While this is an exception as opposed to the normal way that this goes, I felt a lot better in that situation knowing we had a clear rule we could point to saying what the user did wrong and why the ban was issued.
So rather than just a blank check to wield the ban hammer pro re nata—which, again, I do appreciate the trust put in us to do so responsibly—I think it would be most helpful to workshop a clear rule that is able to be applied consistently to handle both the situation at hand and any similar ones that are likely to occur in the future. I'm open to suggestions here. One place I think we could improve is by strengthening the rule against posting private information about people, since as worded right now it applies only to members and not to ancillary people a member knows in real life.
I don't think a clear rule would have prevented that harassment.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 16, 2024, 03:51:36 PM
I think it would be most helpful to workshop a clear rule that is able to be applied consistently to handle both the situation at hand and any similar ones that are likely to occur in the future. I'm open to suggestions here.
The current (relatively recent) "shitposting" forum guideline already has a mechanism built in. Simply include a process similar to workplace disciplinary action. For example, (1) purple text warning, (2) PM warning, (3) active post moderation, (4) short ban, (5) long ban, (6) permaban. Or whataver.
Quote from: Alex on May 21, 2009, 10:34:10 PM
may be subject to a temporary cool-down ban if the moderation team judges that a user is making a high rate of low-quality posts
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 03:53:37 PM
I don't think a clear rule would have prevented that harassment.
Sorry.
Why would someone be owed an explanation for being banned after being warned multiple times for creating disruptions? This is a forum, not a court or Human Resources department. After all these years the only person I'm aware of who got banned and made significant trouble for the forum was the Baloo guy.
In my real life, I'm often part of investigations that lead to people being terminated from their job. A side consequence to being part of said process is at times people aren't happy and go out their way to let me know it. Thing is that emails, messages and phone calls are all extremely easy to block/ignore in modern times. In one extreme case I even had a person try to follow me home once, he was ultimately arrested. I don't think this forum or really any road group would go quite as far as that last item. I dunno, I'm not particularly bothered by telling people to pound sand when they think they are owed an explanation for their malfeasance.
Quote from: kphoger on February 16, 2024, 04:03:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 03:53:37 PM
I don't think a clear rule would have prevented that harassment.
Sorry.
Oh, I just realized you didn't mean my harassment of the Finn.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 16, 2024, 04:20:00 PMAfter all these years the only person I'm aware of who got banned and made significant trouble for the forum was the Baloo guy.
The person Scott alluded to in the middle paragraph of his last post (but did not name since we try to maintain confidentiality in this regard) was a separate individual.
There is also the aspect that we don't necessarily want to ban a forum member many others find annoying, if it is clear that he or she has a sincere interest in roads. Being on this forum comes with an expectation that each of us will make a reasonable effort to manage personality clashes. (Goodness knows there have been a few people over the years that have made me pause and take a deep breath so I don't give in to the temptation to voice irritation.)
As for possible options for handling "we know it when we see it" situations where there is no clear breach of the forum guidelines that can be pointed to, I have thought of a couple:
* Ban vote (simple majority results in a ban) held after five complaints are received. This is essentially the system SABRE uses, but to copy it exactly would require creation of a separate category of closely involved membership (to be a voting member of SABRE, you currently need at least 150 posts in the past year; only complaints and votes from such members count in the process) as well as a secure voting mechanism.
* Forum staff members receive the ability to propose, second, and vote on a ban proposal, which carries by simple majority of voting staff members after the subject of the proposed ban has been given a chance to defend himself or herself in writing. One disadvantage of this is that it occurs behind closed doors.
Sincere interest in roads you say?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 16, 2024, 04:46:33 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 16, 2024, 02:49:08 PM
Seriously this is the point I was trying to make. This kid is literally walking himself right back into the same scenario as yesterday. I don't think he can control himself in any way. This isn't the correct thing to keep catering to this. The right thing would be to just close him out with a ban and let this forum move on.
I don't want to be banned from this forum. I like to present new discoveries about calendar to you.
This thread is turning into an AARoads version of ANI on Wikipedia...
Quote from: on_wisconsin on February 16, 2024, 05:15:39 PM
This thread is turning into an AARoads version of ANI on Wikipedia...
I looked that up, and this is a good point.
I think we have our answer, straight from the man himself:
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 17, 2024, 07:11:03 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 16, 2024, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 16, 2024, 04:46:33 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 16, 2024, 02:49:08 PM
Seriously this is the point I was trying to make. This kid is literally walking himself right back into the same scenario as yesterday. I don't think he can control himself in any way. This isn't the correct thing to keep catering to this. The right thing would be to just close him out with a ban and let this forum move on.
I don't want to be banned from this forum. I like to present new discoveries about calendar to you.
Why don't you start a Tumblr or a blog or something, then? That way you can present all the discoveries you want and nobody can tell you that you can't.
Tumblr or blog has way lower chance to get comments. And I like very much when someone other comments my ideas, discoveries etc. rightly after I have written them, as in this forum.
Quote from: vdeane on February 17, 2024, 04:03:32 PM
I think we have our answer, straight from the man himself:
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 17, 2024, 07:11:03 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 16, 2024, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 16, 2024, 04:46:33 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 16, 2024, 02:49:08 PM
Seriously this is the point I was trying to make. This kid is literally walking himself right back into the same scenario as yesterday. I don't think he can control himself in any way. This isn't the correct thing to keep catering to this. The right thing would be to just close him out with a ban and let this forum move on.
I don't want to be banned from this forum. I like to present new discoveries about calendar to you.
Why don't you start a Tumblr or a blog or something, then? That way you can present all the discoveries you want and nobody can tell you that you can't.
Tumblr or blog has way lower chance to get comments. And I like very much when someone other comments my ideas, discoveries etc. rightly after I have written them, as in this forum.
Max must feed the trolls.
As you already know, I never a miss an opportunity to make a Flat Illinois joke when the opportunity presents itself on Roadgeekery.
I agree that the "unproductive posts" rule could be used on Poiponen, although in the shower today I thought of another issue: the fact that Poiponen basically admitted to wanting to produce child porn. Relevant posts below, unedited except for adding bold for emphasis.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 14, 2024, 02:27:55 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2024, 02:21:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2024, 02:17:39 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13°F on February 14, 2024, 01:33:53 PM
At least temperature should be in Celsius, if other measures are in US customary. That is because the Celsius scale very logically sets its 0 and 100 to freezing and boiling point of water, a very important substance without which the life cannot exist. Fahrenheit on the other hand has its 0 and 100 in arbitrary points close to freezer temperature and human body temperature.
The freezing point of water is indeed very important in real life, but its boiling point has basically no impact on my life whatsoever.
But it's pretty well known that water doesn't freeze at 0oC. Ice melts at 0, that's true - but homogeneous freezing temperature is below -40 oC (or F, at -40 it doesn't matter any more)
These posts should be in metrication thread. Such posts are not welcome to Poiponen13 in one thread. We shall not merge metrication thread to this thread.
A thing more appropriate to this thread - a random thread name:
Video: Sault Sainte John Madden licks a toilet seat
This is a thing she should do when she comes to my house.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 14, 2024, 02:40:20 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2024, 02:34:36 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 14, 2024, 02:27:55 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2024, 02:21:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2024, 02:17:39 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13°F on February 14, 2024, 01:33:53 PM
At least temperature should be in Celsius, if other measures are in US customary. That is because the Celsius scale very logically sets its 0 and 100 to freezing and boiling point of water, a very important substance without which the life cannot exist. Fahrenheit on the other hand has its 0 and 100 in arbitrary points close to freezer temperature and human body temperature.
The freezing point of water is indeed very important in real life, but its boiling point has basically no impact on my life whatsoever.
But it's pretty well known that water doesn't freeze at 0oC. Ice melts at 0, that's true - but homogeneous freezing temperature is below -40 oC (or F, at -40 it doesn't matter any more)
These posts should be in metrication thread. Such posts are not welcome to Poiponen13 in one thread. We shall not merge metrication thread to this thread.
A thing more appropriate to this thread - a random thread name:
Video: Sault Sainte John Madden licks a toilet seat
This is a thing she should do when she comes to my house.
It's not about metrication. It's that you don't know basics of metric system, for example what 0 oC corresponds to!
I would like to know what Sault Sainte John Madden thinks about this. She should join this forum as soon as possible. Do you remember that she is 15 today and was born on the same year as kphoger's eldest son?
There's also a third related comment, which looks like he's randomly making an inane comment about his favorite Arctic city until you look up what "white Christmas" means on Urban Dictionary (don't do that at work). Given how short it was and that it was in the middle of the removed posts, I think there's a good chance that Poiponen knew that definition.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 15, 2024, 11:16:51 AM
Chance of white Christmas in Souky is 100%.
Quote from: vdeane on February 18, 2024, 07:35:08 AM
I agree that the "unproductive posts" rule could be used on Poiponen, although in the shower today I thought of another issue: the fact that Poiponen basically admitted to wanting to produce child porn. Relevant posts below, unedited except for adding bold for emphasis.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 14, 2024, 02:27:55 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2024, 02:21:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2024, 02:17:39 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13°F on February 14, 2024, 01:33:53 PM
At least temperature should be in Celsius, if other measures are in US customary. That is because the Celsius scale very logically sets its 0 and 100 to freezing and boiling point of water, a very important substance without which the life cannot exist. Fahrenheit on the other hand has its 0 and 100 in arbitrary points close to freezer temperature and human body temperature.
The freezing point of water is indeed very important in real life, but its boiling point has basically no impact on my life whatsoever.
But it's pretty well known that water doesn't freeze at 0oC. Ice melts at 0, that's true - but homogeneous freezing temperature is below -40 oC (or F, at -40 it doesn't matter any more)
These posts should be in metrication thread. Such posts are not welcome to Poiponen13 in one thread. We shall not merge metrication thread to this thread.
A thing more appropriate to this thread - a random thread name:
Video: Sault Sainte John Madden licks a toilet seat
This is a thing she should do when she comes to my house.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 14, 2024, 02:40:20 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2024, 02:34:36 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 14, 2024, 02:27:55 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2024, 02:21:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2024, 02:17:39 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13°F on February 14, 2024, 01:33:53 PM
At least temperature should be in Celsius, if other measures are in US customary. That is because the Celsius scale very logically sets its 0 and 100 to freezing and boiling point of water, a very important substance without which the life cannot exist. Fahrenheit on the other hand has its 0 and 100 in arbitrary points close to freezer temperature and human body temperature.
The freezing point of water is indeed very important in real life, but its boiling point has basically no impact on my life whatsoever.
But it's pretty well known that water doesn't freeze at 0oC. Ice melts at 0, that's true - but homogeneous freezing temperature is below -40 oC (or F, at -40 it doesn't matter any more)
These posts should be in metrication thread. Such posts are not welcome to Poiponen13 in one thread. We shall not merge metrication thread to this thread.
A thing more appropriate to this thread - a random thread name:
Video: Sault Sainte John Madden licks a toilet seat
This is a thing she should do when she comes to my house.
It's not about metrication. It's that you don't know basics of metric system, for example what 0 oC corresponds to!
I would like to know what Sault Sainte John Madden thinks about this. She should join this forum as soon as possible. Do you remember that she is 15 today and was born on the same year as kphoger's eldest son?
There's also a third related comment, which looks like he's randomly making an inane comment about his favorite Arctic city until you look up what "white Christmas" means on Urban Dictionary (don't do that at work). Given how short it was and that it was in the middle of the removed posts, I think there's a good chance that Poiponen knew that definition.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 15, 2024, 11:16:51 AM
Chance of white Christmas in Souky is 100%.
That's all good... But why are you thinking about all that in a shower? And moreover, bring it up as an important detail?
One of my deleted posts pertaining to "White Christmas" being a euphemism. I wouldn't say it is a widely known one but it isn't totally obscure either.
This has been dealt with in a permanent manner, so I'm closing this thread.