Traffic signal

[MCRoads]

I have a feeling jakeroot would tear his hair out if he saw the signal installs in the Oklahoma City area.

In DT they arent THAT bad... same cannot be said elsewere.

[jakeroot]

I have zero clue how this setup works, but Hiroshima seems to use permissive *right* turns across tram lanes. In the US and Canada, turns across tramways and busways are always protected.

Here's an intersection where you can see the cars having pulled forward to the yield line (which is adjacent to the tramway, not on it or across it), seemingly waiting for the tram. Does the city just trust drivers not to plow into trams? There must be a sign that I can't locate. The yellow box clearly states (by its nature) "do not stop here", but how do they know when it's safe to proceed? The light is just solid green, as you can see in Street View:

https://goo.gl/VoeN2w

The way I could see this working would be to allow drivers to yield, but not wait on the tram or busway. If a tram or bus came along, a separate part-time matrix display would come on displaying "NO LEFT TURN", expiring after the tram or bus went through. I can only assume that drivers here instinctively know to wait, since the tram network in Hiroshima has existed for over 100 years.

Note the yield lines (the dotted white lines across the right turn lanes)...

[SignBridge]

The people of Japan are a far more disciplined society than we are. It's possible that their drivers actually can be trusted to be vigilant and drive correctly.

[jakeroot]

The people of Japan are a far more disciplined society than we are. It's possible that their drivers actually can be trusted to be vigilant and drive correctly.

Definitely true. They seem to be remarkably well trained. Probably explains why virtually all right turns in Japan are permissive, even those with two lanes. Despite the US having only 60% more people, we have 1000% more road deaths. Yikes!

[plain]

Went through this intersection on my way to a beach in Hampton, Va today. I've never seen a vertical and a horizontal signal side by side like this outside of Texas. This is on Woodland Rd at Pembroke Ave (VA 351). Couldn't get a pick but luckily it's on Street View:



SM-S820L

[traffic light guy]

Went through this intersection on my way to a beach in Hampton, Va today. I've never seen a vertical and a horizontal signal side by side like this outside of Texas. This is on Woodland Rd at Pembroke Ave (VA 351). Couldn't get a pick but luckily it's on Street View:



SM-S820L

Maybe it's used to help people who are colorblind

LG-M327

[plain]

Went through this intersection on my way to a beach in Hampton, Va today. I've never seen a vertical and a horizontal signal side by side like this outside of Texas. This is on Woodland Rd at Pembroke Ave (VA 351). Couldn't get a pick but luckily it's on Street View:



SM-S820L

Maybe it's used to help people who are colorblind

LG-M327

Looking at it I'm actually thinking the right signal is horizontal because a truck could strike it if it is vertical, judging by the wire span

[US 89]

Went through this intersection on my way to a beach in Hampton, Va today. I've never seen a vertical and a horizontal signal side by side like this outside of Texas. This is on Woodland Rd at Pembroke Ave (VA 351). Couldn't get a pick but luckily it's on Street View:

Maybe it's used to help people who are colorblind

Color blindness isn't actually the issue people make it out to be for traffic signals. Just like red is always on the top of a vertical signal, red is always on the left in horizontal signals.

[jakeroot]

Some newer intersections in Edmonton, Alta have horizontal and vertical signals on the same mast: https://goo.gl/d1Hcsm.

The signal with the pro/per arrow is vertical, whereas the standard through head is horizontal. Edmonton has been using a variation of this for quite a long time. Traditionally, signals with the pro/per arrow were located in the median, aligned vertically (of course), and the overhead through signals were horizontal. Edmonton has recently started placing these left turn signals (protected, or protected/permissive) overhead, but has maintained the vertical alignment. That said, median-mounted signals are still installed, as far as I know.





I'm pretty sure I've seen this in Yakima, WA as well, at intersections with FYA retrofits. But I cannot remember where.

[index]

A couple examples of all yellow signal backplates in Silverdale and Redmond, WA (respectively). The first one is definitely not allowed, but I think the second one is OK with them being bike signals...


(other images snipped)

Late to the party on this one, but why exactly is this (yellow backplates on black/green signals) prohibited in the US?

[jeffandnicole]

Went through this intersection on my way to a beach in Hampton, Va today. I've never seen a vertical and a horizontal signal side by side like this outside of Texas. This is on Woodland Rd at Pembroke Ave (VA 351). Couldn't get a pick but luckily it's on Street View:

Maybe it's used to help people who are colorblind

Color blindness isn't actually the issue people make it out to be for traffic signals. Just like red is always on the top of a vertical signal, red is always on the left in horizontal signals.

Seems to be the default standard response/excuse.  Just like when people say they do certain things up north because of snow, even though snow is covering the road for maybe 5, 10 days  out of the year.  The only thing I have ever remotely seen done related to weather conditions is reflectors built into the road rather than stuck on top of the road.  Otherwise, signage and road markings are generally the same around the country, regardless if the area is in a snowy climate.

[jakeroot]

A couple examples of all yellow signal backplates in Silverdale and Redmond, WA (respectively). The first one is definitely not allowed, but I think the second one is OK with them being bike signals...


(other images snipped)

Late to the party on this one, but why exactly is this (yellow backplates on black/green signals) prohibited in the US?

That's a good question. I should point out that yellow is not expressly forbidden. Black is just the only color allowed. Maybe the plan was to ensure no funky colors were used, so they just ruled out everything that wasn't dull black. As it later turned out, Canada was on to something with yellow backplates. But the rule hasn't been changed to allow them just yet. And I'm not sure it will, since backplate advancements more been focused on reflectivity than color. Maybe the ultimate goal is for a fully reflective backplate?

[freebrickproductions]

A couple examples of all yellow signal backplates in Silverdale and Redmond, WA (respectively). The first one is definitely not allowed, but I think the second one is OK with them being bike signals...


(other images snipped)

Late to the party on this one, but why exactly is this (yellow backplates on black/green signals) prohibited in the US?

That's a good question. I should point out that yellow is not expressly forbidden. Black is just the only color allowed. Maybe the plan was to ensure no funky colors were used, so they just ruled out everything that wasn't dull black. As it later turned out, Canada was on to something with yellow backplates. But the rule hasn't been changed to allow them just yet. And I'm not sure it will, since backplate advancements more been focused on reflectivity than color. Maybe the ultimate goal is for a fully reflective backplate?

IIRC, yellow reflective strips are allowed on backgrounds, but the backgrounds can't be entirely yellow.

[jakeroot]

A couple examples of all yellow signal backplates in Silverdale and Redmond, WA (respectively). The first one is definitely not allowed, but I think the second one is OK with them being bike signals...


(other images snipped)

Late to the party on this one, but why exactly is this (yellow backplates on black/green signals) prohibited in the US?

That's a good question. I should point out that yellow is not expressly forbidden. Black is just the only color allowed. Maybe the plan was to ensure no funky colors were used, so they just ruled out everything that wasn't dull black. As it later turned out, Canada was on to something with yellow backplates. But the rule hasn't been changed to allow them just yet. And I'm not sure it will, since backplate advancements more been focused on reflectivity than color. Maybe the ultimate goal is for a fully reflective backplate?

IIRC, yellow reflective strips are allowed on backgrounds, but the backgrounds can't be entirely yellow.

Yes, of course. I'm just curious if a reflective strip being applied to the entire backplate might be next. The back might still be black (unless painted yellow like in many Washington cities), but the front would be entirely reflective yellow. Maybe a bit extreme?

[index]

A couple examples of all yellow signal backplates in Silverdale and Redmond, WA (respectively). The first one is definitely not allowed, but I think the second one is OK with them being bike signals...


(other images snipped)

Late to the party on this one, but why exactly is this (yellow backplates on black/green signals) prohibited in the US?

That's a good question. I should point out that yellow is not expressly forbidden. Black is just the only color allowed. Maybe the plan was to ensure no funky colors were used, so they just ruled out everything that wasn't dull black. As it later turned out, Canada was on to something with yellow backplates. But the rule hasn't been changed to allow them just yet. And I'm not sure it will, since backplate advancements more been focused on reflectivity than color. Maybe the ultimate goal is for a fully reflective backplate?

On the topic of odd colors, I've seen both emergency management pink and fluorescent pedestrian green retroreflective backplate outlines, both of which I habe saved GSVs for, if anyone's interested. I wonder if there's any reason for this? They were permanent signals.

[DrSmith]

There are some in Springfield Mass that use yellow on the backside of the backplate while the front is black

https://goo.gl/maps/TW3GTnQyfZp

[jakeroot]

There are some in Springfield Mass that use yellow on the backside of the backplate while the front is black

https://goo.gl/maps/TW3GTnQyfZp

King County, WA (where Seattle is located) continues to use all yellow signals with the backside painted yellow. Many cities in the county (excluding Seattle) followed suit, and continue to paint the backside of their signals yellow as well.

https://goo.gl/3wBZRR (county signal)
https://goo.gl/dvPqfV (new Renton signal)
https://goo.gl/t1EuLX (old-ish Burien signal)

I have not seen any outside of Washington painted this way until now, so it's cool to finally see one.

[MNHighwayMan]

So here's an interesting one for yall. This is westbound Ingersoll Ave at MLK Jr Pkwy in Des Moines.



Doghouse, normal 3-section, FYA for right turns (and a light up sign that's supposed to display a "No Right Turn" symbol when the right arrow is red and the bicycle signal is green, I believe, although I never saw this while I was there), and a bicycle signal mounted on the mast. The thing I find most interesting about this signal is that, during the green phase, the FYA activates even when the bicycle signal is red and the pedestrian signal displays "Don't Walk" (pictured). In theory, that combination should actually produce a green right turn arrow, not?

Interestingly, it seemed that the bike detection sensor on the mast arm did not function. While I was taking pictures, a guy on a bicycle came up to the light, but in three or so light cycles, not once did the bike signal change, and he just simply crossed against the light after the system failed to work. I actually talked to him while he waited, and he said that sometimes the sensor worked, and sometimes it didn't. Apparently when I took these pictures Tuesday morning, it was in the dysfunctional phase. I called the city public works dept about the issue and they said "they'll look into it," but as I've learned in my time living here, that may or may not mean anything…

[jakeroot]

Does seem like a rather poorly thought-out intersection. Bike signals should really only be used along two-way cycle tracks, and preferably in timed areas (like downtown cores). Bike detection systems need far more work before they could operate efficiently alongside vehicle sensors. At the very least, they should provide a push button for bikes.

There should definitely be a green arrow when the crosswalk and bike signal aren't activated. It is odd to see an FYA against a green bike signal (how I assume the operation works). All turns across bike paths in Seattle are either green orbs or fully protected turns, no FYAs. There are many right turn FYAs around Western Washington, but they only face crosswalks, and often use a red arrow during the walk phase, and an FYA during the flashing don't walk phase (or FYA during whole phase).

[MNHighwayMan]

Does seem like a rather poorly thought-out intersection. Bike signals should really only be used along two-way cycle tracks, and preferably in timed areas (like downtown cores). Bike detection systems need far more work before they could operate efficiently alongside vehicle sensors. At the very least, they should provide a push button for bikes.

There should definitely be a green arrow when the crosswalk and bike signal aren't activated. It is odd to see an FYA against a green bike signal (how I assume the operation works). All turns across bike paths in Seattle are either green orbs or fully protected turns, no FYAs. There are many right turn FYAs around Western Washington, but they only face crosswalks, and often use a red arrow during the walk phase, and an FYA during the flashing don't walk phase (or FYA during whole phase, or red arrow during whole phase).

I never saw how the FYA functioned when the bicycle signal was anything but red. The bike signal stayed red and didn't change once in the entire time I was there, and I watched through maybe 8-10 signal cycles, even with the cyclist waiting to cross. I also never saw the FYA head display a green arrow, either—it always displayed flashing yellow even if both the bike and pedestrian signals were red/don't walk.

[jakeroot]

Does seem like a rather poorly thought-out intersection. Bike signals should really only be used along two-way cycle tracks, and preferably in timed areas (like downtown cores). Bike detection systems need far more work before they could operate efficiently alongside vehicle sensors. At the very least, they should provide a push button for bikes.

There should definitely be a green arrow when the crosswalk and bike signal aren't activated. It is odd to see an FYA against a green bike signal (how I assume the operation works). All turns across bike paths in Seattle are either green orbs or fully protected turns, no FYAs. There are many right turn FYAs around Western Washington, but they only face crosswalks, and often use a red arrow during the walk phase, and an FYA during the flashing don't walk phase (or FYA during whole phase, or red arrow during whole phase).

I never saw how the FYA functioned when the bicycle signal was anything but red. The bike signal stayed red and didn't change once in the entire time I was there, and I watched through maybe 8-10 signal cycles, even with the cyclist waiting to cross. I also never saw the FYA head display a green arrow, either–it always displayed flashing yellow even if both the bike and pedestrian signals were red/don't walk.

How was the intersection configured? Street View shows the bike lane approaching the intersection between the right and through lanes, which wouldn't require a special bike signal. It doesn't show the FYA so I assume something has changed.

[MNHighwayMan]

The FYA and bike signal are very recent additions. I actually only stopped because it was the first time I'd seen them. They have to be less than a month old.

From left to right, WB Ingersoll Ave is currently:
Left turn lane
Two through lanes
Right turn lane
A small gap
And finally, the bike lane, up against the curb.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Bike signals should really only be used along two-way cycle tracks

Why? Most protected bike lanes in NYC are one-way.

[jakeroot]

Bike signals should really only be used along two-way cycle tracks

Why? Most protected bike lanes in NYC are one-way.

Just seems like overkill. I like protected bike paths, but the single lane ones work fine with normal traffic lights. Two-way cycle paths? Those definitely need full protection. Honestly, I think one-way cycle paths are a waste of time. Just move all traffic to one side of the roadway, and use the extra space for a two-way path on the other side.

Images I've seen from NYC use FYA's against one-way cycle paths, so they really don't operate any different than a standard bike lane with green or blue paint through an intersection. In those instances, they'd be better off just switching the turn lanes and the bike lanes up several dozens of feet prior to an intersection, so the only conflict point is a brief switchover.

[Revive 755]

So here's an interesting one for yall. This is westbound Ingersoll Ave at MLK Jr Pkwy in Des Moines.



Doghouse, normal 3-section, FYA for right turns (and a light up sign that's supposed to display a "No Right Turn" symbol when the right arrow is red and the bicycle signal is green, I believe, although I never saw this while I was there), and a bicycle signal mounted on the mast. The thing I find most interesting about this signal is that, during the green phase, the FYA activates even when the bicycle signal is red and the pedestrian signal displays "Don't Walk" (pictured). In theory, that combination should actually produce a green right turn arrow, not?

Since the opposing left turn is protected-permitted, MUTCD 4D.05 Paragraph 3 Item F requires the flashing yellow arrow to be used instead of a green arrow.  This is an area I hope that gets refined in a future edition of the MUTCD since there is no indication for 'you have the right-of-way but need to watch for conflicting traffic' for turns (maybe a potential use for a flashing green arrow?).  I wouldn't mind having an option for a signal which can control a right turn lane channelized by an island as if a yield sign was present, but also being able to provide a protected phase and a red phase as needed (for time of day phasing or perhaps a right turn towards a railroad crossing).

Couple other notes on that signal:

1) The right turn head may be in violation of MUTCD 4D.13 Paragraph 07.  Can't tell for sure, but based on Streetview it looks like they swapped out one of the through heads.

If an exclusive left-turn, right-turn, or U-turn lane is present on an approach and if a primary separate
turn signal face controlling that lane is mounted over the roadway, the primary separate turn signal face shall not be positioned any further to the right than the extension of the right-hand edge of the exclusive turn lane or any further to the left than the extension of the left-hand edge of the exclusive turn lane.

2) Des Moines does not appear to have gotten interim approval to use bicycle signal faces, nor am I seeing a statewide approval for Iowa.  (link to FHWA listing)

3) The Bicycle signal sign required by the conditions of the interim approval is missing.