Staten Island should be part of New Jersey

[Mike2357]

Staten Island is geographically, geologically, and topographically, New Jersey. Why it was ever considered part of NY is beyond me. It has extremely similar terrain and geological features as eastern NJ, and the borough as a whole does not look at all like it's a part of "New York City". Driving on the West Shore Expressway you would not think you were in a city or anywhere near one. It is more rural than parts of Long Island. The Verrazano Bridge, going from NY to NY, span is almost 2.5 miles long and the Geothals bridge is only 1/2 - 1 mile long at most. It has 3 short bridges connecting it to NJ, but one, long bridge connecting it to NYC, showing that it most likely broke off from NJ ages ago. Also, redesignating it NJ may show how ridiculous the double-toll is to drive from NJ to Brooklyn. The goethals bridge shouldn't be tolled, only the Verrazano, since that is the real "Hudson River Crossing". Also, this would allow the speed limits to be bumped to 55 mph, since NYC caps all highways at 50 mph within it's confines.. To summarize, it is closer, and looks very much more like NJ than NY, let alone NYC. Please forgive me of this has been discussed elsewhere in the forums years ago. I just joined the site this month, and while I do look at the first page of threads in a topic, like off-topic, to see if someone already started a similar topic, but I don't check every page, also I might be sharing a new specific reason/justification of why that same idea should be implemented, so Don't get all "oh FritzOwl already included that in his pave all of America with roads plan!"

[kphoger]

Why it was ever considered part of NY is beyond me.

Wasn't it settled by the same people who settled the rest of NYC?

[kphoger]

Don't get all "oh FritzOwl already included that in his pave all of America with roads plan!"

Nobody–NOBODY!–would even consider using Fritz's thread to counter anything you say.  Well, except perhaps with tongue firmly in cheek.

[Mike2357]

Good, and before people ask, no, I do not think Eastern Long Island should be part of Connecticut!

[SP Cook]

Why it was ever considered part of NY is beyond me.

Because, like most of the boundaries in eastern North America, they were drawn more than 300 years ago by royals in Europe who had never been outside Europe and who were working from maps drawn by "explorers"  who had only a brief understanding of the geography of the places they were purporting to map, or to "grant" , neither of these groups having any real title to any of it.

[jeffandnicole]

The "breaking off" thought process can really be considered worldwide.  Take a look at a globe or a map, and you'll see how, if you were to float the continents together, they would roughty fit in the various nooks and along the coastlines of other land masses.

That said, areas of states were created, bought and traded long ago.  No real reason to having two Dakotas, or panhandles like in Maryland, Florida & Oklahoma, because ultimately these land areas are similar to the states surrounding it.

[kphoger]

Because, like most of the boundaries in eastern North America, they were drawn more than 300 years ago by royals in Europe who had never been outside Europe and who were working from maps drawn by "explorers"  who had only a brief understanding of the geography of the places they were purporting to map, or to "grant" , neither of these groups having any real title to any of it.

Primary historical evidence is admittedly scant, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all.  The most likely explanation (in my opinion) is that controlling Staten Island meant controlling access to the harbor, and controlling access to the harbor meant controlling imports and exports, and controlling imports and exports meant controlling tariffs and taxes.

[CtrlAltDel]

I think also that it's because these colonies were founded by way of the sea, and so the sea didn't represent the same kind of division or barrier that it does to people, like us, who travel mostly on land.

[Scott5114]

No real reason to having two Dakotas, or panhandles like in Maryland, Florida & Oklahoma, because ultimately these land areas are similar to the states surrounding it.

The Oklahoma panhandle is a quirk of Oklahoma just being the land left over after when every state around it had its boundaries settled. The Missouri Compromise of 1820 prohibited new slave states north of 36°30′. Texas, a slave state, set its northern boundary at 36°30′ to avoid being affected by the Missouri Compromise. Then, in 1856, the Kansas—Nebraska Act passed, setting the southern boundary of Kansas Territory (which at the time also contained far eastern Colorado) at 37°. That "No Man's Land" between 37° and 36°30′ had to go somewhere, and it ended up as part of Oklahoma.

[kphoger]

The Oklahoma panhandle is a quirk of Oklahoma just being the land left over after when every state around it had its boundaries settled. The Missouri Compromise of 1820 prohibited new slave states north of 36°30′. Texas, a slave state, set its northern boundary at 36°30′ to avoid being affected by the Missouri Compromise. Then, in 1856, the Kansas—Nebraska Act passed, setting the southern boundary of Kansas Territory (which at the time also contained far eastern Colorado) at 37°. That "No Man's Land" between 37° and 36°30′ had to go somewhere, and it ended up as part of Oklahoma.

Let me tell you, the Oklahoma panhandle really is No Man's Land, depending on your route.  For example, I've crossed the state along this route once or twice:  53 miles of nothing, followed by 1½ miles of Texhoma–part of which isn't even in Oklahoma.

[GaryV]

While the Cimarron Territory had to go somewhere, for 40 years it really was No Man's Land, a totally unorganized territory not part of any other jurisdiction.

[NWI_Irish96]

The Dutch were the original settlers in the area and they included Staten Island as part of Manhattan (New Amsterdam) so it's their fault.

[Mike2357]

Weird, as it's even further from Manhattan than Brooklyn, but understandable. They should have a car-ferry to Staten Island to avoid the outrageous $20+ toll to go there and back, not even including the $16 goethals bridge if you're coming back from NJ. In fact, the most efficient route from Brooklyn to Delaware and back costs nearly $75!!! That's almost 2 tanks of gas! In fact, you literally save more money driving north over the Tappanzee Bridge (that's it's real name) and coming back down south via I-87, despite the extra 3 gallons of gas, than to simple cross through staten island!

[renegade]

Good, and before people ask, no, I do not think Eastern Long Island should be part of Connecticut!

Long Island should be made part of Massachusetts, and a dozen Interstate highways should be built to connect the two.  Then all connections to mainland New York should be demolished.  The bridge tolls can be used to cover the cost.

[Mike2357]

Good, and before people ask, no, I do not think Eastern Long Island should be part of Connecticut!

Long Island should be made part of Massachusetts, and a dozen Interstate highways should be built to connect the two.  Then all connections to mainland New York should be demolished.  The bridge tolls can be used to cover the cost.

I've considered a super tunnel connecting montauk to MA in the Nantucket sound, but this would be even longer than a tunnel under the Bering Straight, which would complete a transcontinental highway from Argentina to Africa via Alaska and Eastern Russia..not getting into that here, for now we should focus and getting those 4-5 Long Island Sound links built!

[kphoger]

... driving north over the Tappanzee Governor Mario M. Cuomo Bridge Bridge (that's it's real name) and ...

FTFY

Also...  its

[1995hoo]

Weird, as it's even further from Manhattan than Brooklyn, but understandable. They should have a car-ferry to Staten Island to avoid the outrageous $20+ toll to go there and back, not even including the $16 goethals bridge if you're coming back from NJ. In fact, the most efficient route from Brooklyn to Delaware and back costs nearly $75!!! That's almost 2 tanks of gas! In fact, you literally save more money driving north over the Tappanzee Bridge (that's it's real name) and coming back down south via I-87, despite the extra 3 gallons of gas, than to simple cross through staten island!

The Staten Island Ferry used to transport cars. They stopped that after 9-11.

Also, the correct name is "Tappan Zee Bridge" (three words).

[Mike2357]

... driving north over the Tappanzee Governor Mario M. Cuomo Bridge Bridge (that's it's real name) and ...

FTFY

Also...  its

The bridge doesn't deserve that name, some have even proposed bills to change it back. Brooklyn Battery Tunnel should also be changed back.

[Dirt Roads]

The Dutch were the original settlers in the area and they included Staten Island as part of Manhattan (New Amsterdam) so it's their fault.

You are getting close.  The Dutch gave up Nieuw Nederland to the English at the end of Second Dutch War in 1667, but they continued to occupy Staaten Eylandt.  Then in 1670, the Dutch finally transferred Staten Island directly to Francis Lovelace, who was governor of New York.  In the meantime, New Jersey governor Philip Carteret got upset at that two of New Jersey's townships had declared independence from the colony in 1668, and he went back to England and missed the opportunity.  Then came the Third Dutch War and the Dutch retook Manhattan for less than a year, finally returning New York City to the English in February 1673.  In an odd twist of fate, Francis Lovelace had resurveyed both towns on Staten Island in 1671 but couldn't get Englishmen to purchase the lands and most of the property stayed in the hands of Dutchmen, who were happy to live amongst the English (many of whom had fled to Holland due to Protestant persecution).

[kphoger]

The bridge doesn't deserve that name, some have even proposed bills to change it back. Brooklyn Battery Tunnel should also be changed back.

So by "real" you meant "unofficial".  Gotcha.

Also, the correct name is "Tappan Zee Bridge" (three words).

Until his recent reply, I thought he was specifically telling us it was only two words.  Now I realize he just doesn't like the name Cuomo.

[hotdogPi]

The bridge doesn't deserve that name, some have even proposed bills to change it back. Brooklyn Battery Tunnel should also be changed back.

So by "real" you meant "unofficial".  Gotcha.

There's an entire thread about "real" names: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18914

[Max Rockatansky]

Don't get all "oh FritzOwl already included that in his pave all of America with roads plan!"

Nobody–NOBODY!–would even consider using Fritz's thread to counter anything you say.  Well, except perhaps with tongue firmly in cheek.

There is only one Owl, this newbie is a discount kernals12 at best. 

[kkt]

How long would the Staten Island Ferry continue to be free if it crossed state lines?

[Mike2357]

How long would the Staten Island Ferry continue to be free if it crossed state lines?

That should be based on the distance, not where it docks

[Scott5114]

How long would the Staten Island Ferry continue to be free if it crossed state lines?

That should be based on the distance, not where it docks

Problem is if it's New York-to-New York, the New York government has the incentive to provide it as a service to NY residents. If it's New York-to-New Jersey, now, there's two governments involved, and at least some of the benefit is going toward people who don't live (i.e. pay taxes) in New York.