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Started by Alex, August 18, 2009, 12:34:57 AM

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bluecountry

Is there any reason why the Southern State changes names to the Heckencer Parkway suddenly, north of NY-27?  I think it would make sense to do so on the south part.


D-Dey65

Quote from: bluecountry on July 15, 2024, 01:30:48 PMIs there any reason why the Southern State changes names to the Heckencer Parkway suddenly, north of NY-27?  I think it would make sense to do so on the south part.
Because the segment east of the interchange with Sagtikos State Parkway is Heckscher State Parkway.

D-Dey65

Now, I have another question.

I was exploring southern Westchester County as part of a proposed road trip in the event that I ever get back up to the New York Tri-State area. In the process, I discovered a new roundabout with NY 100C on the west side of the interchange with NY 9A. The trouble is, they have signs claiming NY 100C goes west of NY 9A, but they don't say where or how.


SignBridge

Quote from: D-Dey65 on July 15, 2024, 06:49:35 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on July 15, 2024, 01:30:48 PMIs there any reason why the Southern State changes names to the Heckencer Parkway suddenly, north of NY-27?  I think it would make sense to do so on the south part.
Because the segment east of the interchange with Sagtikos State Parkway is Heckscher State Parkway.

The Southern State Pkwy. going east originally ended by merging into the Sagtikos parkway. In the early 1960's the S.S. Pkwy was extended east to Heckscher State Park. That easterly extension is called both the Heckscher State Pkwy. and/or the S.S. Pkwy's Heckscher Spur. The Southern State Pkwy's exit numbers continue east on the Heckscher Spur.

vdeane

#7054
Quote from: SignBridge on July 15, 2024, 07:53:23 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on July 15, 2024, 06:49:35 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on July 15, 2024, 01:30:48 PMIs there any reason why the Southern State changes names to the Heckencer Parkway suddenly, north of NY-27?  I think it would make sense to do so on the south part.
Because the segment east of the interchange with Sagtikos State Parkway is Heckscher State Parkway.

The Southern State Pkwy. going east originally ended by merging into the Sagtikos parkway. In the early 1960's the S.S. Pkwy was extended east to Heckscher State Park. That easterly extension is called both the Heckscher State Pkwy. and/or the S.S. Pkwy's Heckscher Spur. The Southern State Pkwy's exit numbers continue east on the Heckscher Spur.
And to make it more confusing, the signage varies.  It pretty much all says Southern to NY 27.  Both NY 27 and NY 27A use Southern for heading west and Heckscher for heading south.  Only at Timber Point Road is there a sign for the Heckscher heading north/west.  I'm not sure what the signs in the park say because the street view there is ancient.

When I did my exit list for NYSRoads, I put the switch at NY 27, the first place where Heckscher Parkway signs actually appear.

Quote from: D-Dey65 on July 15, 2024, 06:58:08 PMNow, I have another question.

I was exploring southern Westchester County as part of a proposed road trip in the event that I ever get back up to the New York Tri-State area. In the process, I discovered a new roundabout with NY 100C on the west side of the interchange with NY 9A. The trouble is, they have signs claiming NY 100C goes west of NY 9A, but they don't say where or how.


Looks like down the ramp to NY 9A.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cockroachking

Quote from: vdeane on July 15, 2024, 09:13:40 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on July 15, 2024, 06:58:08 PMNow, I have another question.

I was exploring southern Westchester County as part of a proposed road trip in the event that I ever get back up to the New York Tri-State area. In the process, I discovered a new roundabout with NY 100C on the west side of the interchange with NY 9A. The trouble is, they have signs claiming NY 100C goes west of NY 9A, but they don't say where or how.


Looks like down the ramp to NY 9A.

The below screenshot from the RIS viewer clearly shows 100C on the "ramp" in the SW corner of the interchange. The mileage begins at 9A, increases to the north into the roundabout, before continuing east.

See this sign at the roundabout and this begin sign on the "ramp" for additional field signage matching GIS.

D-Dey65

Quote from: cockroachking on July 15, 2024, 10:01:47 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 15, 2024, 09:13:40 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on July 15, 2024, 06:58:08 PMNow, I have another question.

I was exploring southern Westchester County as part of a proposed road trip in the event that I ever get back up to the New York Tri-State area. In the process, I discovered a new roundabout with NY 100C on the west side of the interchange with NY 9A. The trouble is, they have signs claiming NY 100C goes west of NY 9A, but they don't say where or how.


Looks like down the ramp to NY 9A.

The below screenshot from the RIS viewer clearly shows 100C on the "ramp" in the SW corner of the interchange. The mileage begins at 9A, increases to the north into the roundabout, before continuing east.

See this sign at the roundabout and this begin sign on the "ramp" for additional field signage matching GIS.
Okay, that makes a little more sense.

dantheman

The reference markers (little green signs) on NY 22 in Columbia County all have "8105" on the second line, as they should - county code 81 (Columbia), county sequence number 05 (fifth county on the route - Bronx, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Columbia). But, across the county line in Rensselaer County, the second line is "1407" - 14 for Rensselaer County, but 07 instead of 06 for the sequential number of the county.

I am guessing this is a holdover from way back when NY 22 extended into New York County, but why is the former extension reflected on Rensselaer County's signs and not Columbia's? (maybe because it's the line between NYSDOT regions 1 and 8?) A quick look on GSV shows that the sequence numbers continue to be off by one going north (08 for Washington, 09 for Essex, 10 for Clinton County) too.

Are there other counting discrepancies like this elsewhere in the state?

vdeane

Quote from: dantheman on July 16, 2024, 06:34:28 PMAre there other counting discrepancies like this elsewhere in the state?
Reference markers on I-87 in Essex County say 1211, counting all of I-87's counties, plus an extra (Albany County is counted twice, once for the Thruway, and again for the Northway).  Reference markers in Clinton County say 7105, counting only the Northway.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Rothman

I prefer the RMs out there that refer to old alignments/NY State Highway designations.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

noelbotevera

#7060
Since we're talking about reference markers, here's a fun one: NY 17 WB past exit 56 in Elmira insists that this was part of NY 14. Um, what? NY 14 is on a surface street through Elmira and has been for a while. Granted, I don't know if NY 17 is the older route than NY 14, but why would it take second fiddle on the NY 17 freeway?

Okay, so pop on over to actual NY 14 at Horseheads. That says NY 328, which is not NY 14. What about NY 14 on Clemens Center Parkway? Nope, still not NY 14, that's NY 961M!

Ugh.
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vdeane

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 18, 2024, 11:17:00 PMSince we're talking about reference markers, here's a fun one: NY 17 WB past exit 56 in Elmira insists that this was part of NY 14. Um, what? NY 14 is on a surface street through Elmira and has been for a while. Granted, I don't know if NY 17 is the older route than NY 14, but why would it take second fiddle on the NY 17 freeway?

Okay, so pop on over to actual NY 14 at Horseheads. That says NY 328, which is not NY 14. What about NY 14 on Clemens Center Parkway? Nope, still not NY 14, that's NY 961M!

Ugh.
It might have been NY 14 at one time.  The route numbers jumped around a few times as sections of the Southern Tier Expressway opened, especially in areas where NY 17 was further away from the STE.  Clemens Center Parkway wasn't NY 14 for a long while either.  Reference markers aren't supposed to change as routes move, since they're used to mark locations in pretty much every NYSDOT database (although this is changing as more and more things move to GIS), although the regions vary in how well they uphold that.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

machias

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 18, 2024, 11:17:00 PMSince we're talking about reference markers, here's a fun one: NY 17 WB past exit 56 in Elmira insists that this was part of NY 14. Um, what? NY 14 is on a surface street through Elmira and has been for a while. Granted, I don't know if NY 17 is the older route than NY 14, but why would it take second fiddle on the NY 17 freeway?

Okay, so pop on over to actual NY 14 at Horseheads. That says NY 328, which is not NY 14. What about NY 14 on Clemens Center Parkway? Nope, still not NY 14, that's NY 961M!

Ugh.

State maintained routes around the Southern Tier Expressway are fascinating when it comes to following the reference markers because it shows the original numbers attached to the roadway. The regions are uneven with replacing the marker data (which they're not suppose to do) when a route number changes.  For example, R3 changed the NY 57 reference markers to NY 370 when 57 was decommissioned, but R2 kept NY 12C on NY 291. 


baugh17

Quote from: vdeane on July 19, 2024, 09:50:20 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on July 18, 2024, 11:17:00 PMSince we're talking about reference markers, here's a fun one: NY 17 WB past exit 56 in Elmira insists that this was part of NY 14. Um, what? NY 14 is on a surface street through Elmira and has been for a while. Granted, I don't know if NY 17 is the older route than NY 14, but why would it take second fiddle on the NY 17 freeway?

Okay, so pop on over to actual NY 14 at Horseheads. That says NY 328, which is not NY 14. What about NY 14 on Clemens Center Parkway? Nope, still not NY 14, that's NY 961M!

Ugh.
It might have been NY 14 at one time.  The route numbers jumped around a few times as sections of the Southern Tier Expressway opened, especially in areas where NY 17 was further away from the STE.  Clemens Center Parkway wasn't NY 14 for a long while either.  Reference markers aren't supposed to change as routes move, since they're used to mark locations in pretty much every NYSDOT database (although this is changing as more and more things move to GIS), although the regions vary in how well they uphold that.

A lot of routes in the Elmira area were also realigned following Hurricane Agnes and the Flood of 1972.  NY 14 was one of those routes impacted and it was moved to overlap the NY 17 (Present day I-86) alignment to Horseheads.  This also happened when the reference marker system was being rolled out.  For roads that carry multiplexes, reference markers are generally posted for the lower numbered route, hence why you see "14" reference markers on this stretch of I-86.

NY 14 was moved to its current alignment through Elmira Heights, and Horseheads in 1978 (NY 328 was truncated to its current location in Southport in a corresponding move).  The Elmira alignment moved to Clemens Center Parkway in 2001.

Rothman

Just a reminder that as NYSDOT's design docs focus more and more on milepoints, RMs are becoming obsolete.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

vdeane

Quote from: machias on July 19, 2024, 12:04:07 PMState maintained routes around the Southern Tier Expressway are fascinating when it comes to following the reference markers because it shows the original numbers attached to the roadway. The regions are uneven with replacing the marker data (which they're not suppose to do) when a route number changes.  For example, R3 changed the NY 57 reference markers to NY 370 when 57 was decommissioned, but R2 kept NY 12C on NY 291. 
And I-390 from exits 3 to 5 used to say "245" on all the reference markers.  They still do in Region 6, but Region 4 switched to "390I" some years ago.

They are also interesting in the case of where counties have changed region.  Wayne County is still 37 and Tioga 65 on reference markers, even though Wayne has been Region 4 for decades and Tioga Region 9 since 2006.  The Region 10 and 11 split is fascinating too, as the region code accurately reflects things as they are today but the county code reflects when they were both the same region (which is how Suffolk County can be 07 even though Region 10 only has two counties and Staten Island is X6 even though NYC only has 5 boroughs).

Quote from: Rothman on July 19, 2024, 01:08:02 PMJust a reminder that as NYSDOT's design docs focus more and more on milepoints, RMs are becoming obsolete.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Indeed, the ownership over the reference marker system has moved from bureau to bureau as more and more things switch to GIS/milepoint (especially with the crash data in CLEAR, as that data was the reason why the reference markers weren't supposed to change in the first place).  It will be interesting to see what happens if they go away, however, as at least one region still uses reference markers for projects and ends up translating to/from milepoint whenever they interact with Main Office.

(personal opinion)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Rothman

I believe IPP/FDRs still require both RMs and milepoints (90% sure, but it could be a Region 3 thing).

Heck, they still require the very, very old state highway descriptive routes so people can look up ye olde record plans.

Legacy systems are called that for good reason.  They never die.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.



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