Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[wdcrft63]

But the purpose of I-87 is to provide an efficient connection between Raleigh and Hampton Roads, no?  Because right now it seems like that was a lie and that the true purpose is to put a red, white, and blue shield in every Podunk town in eastern NC.  I'm sure NY's Southern Tier can tell them about how using interstates to drive economic growth is a bad idea.

And it definitely should not be I-87.  I could vaguely see a north-south number when I assumed that it would follow NC 11/US 13.  But knowing what I do now?  It doesn't even remotely resemble north-south and should be renumbered accordingly.

It seems like the Carolina Southway just becomes more and more an affront to everything that was elegant about the original interstate system (and first round of additions) the more I learn about it.  The interstate system has become a complete mess, and a majority (though not all) of the blame can be heaped at Texas and North Carolina.

NO, the primary purpose of I-87 is NOT to provide an efficient connection between Raleigh and Hampton Roads. The primary purpose of I-87 is to provide the communities of northeastern NC a more efficient connection to Raleigh and to Hampton Roads. Those who think these communities don't need these more efficient connections are entitled to their opinion, but the decisions necessarily lie with those most effected.

The "elegant" original interstate system was highly concentrated in the northeastern quarter of the country. As the rest of the country develops, it needs more infrastructure including more interstate routes. NC need not apologize, IMHO, for building up a modern statewide system.

[vdeane]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.  In any case, NC's interstates have resulted in numerous short 2dis and long 3dis (I-587 is noteworthy because it will be at least 25% the size of its parent), duplicated interstates, a north-south interstate signed as east-west (I-26), an east-west interstate signed as north-south (I-87), inelegant routings and designations (I-795 will have an otherwise pointless overlap with I-587 just to meet its parent), and a system that will likely be as dense as the originally proposed freeway (not just interstate, and not just built) system of Connecticut by the time they're done.

Honestly, most of the newer additions to the interstate system strike me as pure pork (with a side of "we're going to designate this random freeway as an interstate for no other reason than NMSL") rather than filling in gaps in a coherent nationwide system.  Just look at some of the city sizes.  Ithaca, NY, is twice the size of Elizabeth City, yet which one is getting an interstate built just so the state can say it has a red, white, and blue shield?  And it's not like having an interstate shield is the economic miracle that many places seem to think it is - just look at NY's Southern Tier.

[74/171FAN]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.  In any case, NC's interstates have resulted in numerous short 2dis and long 3dis (I-587 is noteworthy because it will be at least 25% the size of its parent), duplicated interstates, a north-south interstate signed as east-west (I-26), an east-west interstate signed as north-south (I-87), inelegant routings and designations (I-785 will have an otherwise pointless overlap with I-840 just to meet its parent), and a system that will likely be as dense as the originally proposed freeway (not just interstate, and not just built) system of Connecticut by the time they're done.

Honestly, most of the newer additions to the interstate system strike me as pure pork (with a side of "we're going to designate this random freeway as an interstate for no other reason than NMSL") rather than filling in gaps in a coherent nationwide system.  Just look at some of the city sizes.  Ithaca, NY, is twice the size of Elizabeth City, yet which one is getting an interstate built just so the state can say it has a red, white, and blue shield?  And it's not like having an interstate shield is the economic miracle that many places seem to think it is - just look at NY's Southern Tier.

FTFY.  Thankfully I-587 will not make it to Greensboro.

[sprjus4]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.  In any case, NC's interstates have resulted in numerous short 2dis and long 3dis (I-587 is noteworthy because it will be at least 25% the size of its parent), duplicated interstates, a north-south interstate signed as east-west (I-26), an east-west interstate signed as north-south (I-87), inelegant routings and designations (I-785 will have an otherwise pointless overlap with I-587 just to meet its parent), and a system that will likely be as dense as the originally proposed freeway (not just interstate, and not just built) system of Connecticut by the time they're done.

Honestly, most of the newer additions to the interstate system strike me as pure pork (with a side of "we're going to designate this random freeway as an interstate for no other reason than NMSL") rather than filling in gaps in a coherent nationwide system.  Just look at some of the city sizes.  Ithaca, NY, is twice the size of Elizabeth City, yet which one is getting an interstate built just so the state can say it has a red, white, and blue shield?  And it's not like having an interstate shield is the economic miracle that many places seem to think it is - just look at NY's Southern Tier.

To be honest, focus & funds from I-87 should be directed into widening I-95 through the state to 6-8 lanes. That is way more of a priority, traffic is horrible during peak seasons.

[vdeane]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.  In any case, NC's interstates have resulted in numerous short 2dis and long 3dis (I-587 is noteworthy because it will be at least 25% the size of its parent), duplicated interstates, a north-south interstate signed as east-west (I-26), an east-west interstate signed as north-south (I-87), inelegant routings and designations (I-785 will have an otherwise pointless overlap with I-840 just to meet its parent), and a system that will likely be as dense as the originally proposed freeway (not just interstate, and not just built) system of Connecticut by the time they're done.

Honestly, most of the newer additions to the interstate system strike me as pure pork (with a side of "we're going to designate this random freeway as an interstate for no other reason than NMSL") rather than filling in gaps in a coherent nationwide system.  Just look at some of the city sizes.  Ithaca, NY, is twice the size of Elizabeth City, yet which one is getting an interstate built just so the state can say it has a red, white, and blue shield?  And it's not like having an interstate shield is the economic miracle that many places seem to think it is - just look at NY's Southern Tier.

FTFY.  Thankfully I-587 will not make it to Greensboro.

Whoops - meant I-795, but you just found another one!

[Beltway]

the true purpose is to put a red, white, and blue shield in every Podunk town in eastern NC.

Exaggerate much? It's not like anybody is pushing for an interstate to connect Snow Hill and Saratoga. Other than I-87, what future interstate in eastern NC do you think is not warranted?

None of those roads that you listed warrant an Interstate route designation.  Portions of them may warrant a full freeway design upgrade based on the level of car and truck volumes, but that doesn't mean that they need to be in the Interstate system.  The Interstate system is a backbone system of the highest priority inter-state highways, which includes supplementary loops and spurs.

[sprjus4]

the true purpose is to put a red, white, and blue shield in every Podunk town in eastern NC.

Exaggerate much? It’s not like anybody is pushing for an interstate to connect Snow Hill and Saratoga. Other than I-87, what future interstate in eastern NC do you think is not warranted?

None of those roads that you listed warrant an Interstate route designation.  Portions of them may warrant a full freeway design upgrade based on the level of car and truck volumes, but that doesn't mean that they need to be in the Interstate system.  The Interstate system is a backbone system of the highest priority inter-state highways, which includes supplementary loops and spurs.

Interstates should always traverse between at least 2 states. Any interstate within one state should either be simply upgraded with no special designation, or a spur designation from it's parent, even in longer cases like I-42. I-42 should be I-340 or something IMO. If it entered another state, then a primary designation is fine.

As for I-795 and I-587, I think those interstates are fair to have, as they're branch routes of one main route.

[Beltway]

None of those roads that you listed warrant an Interstate route designation.  Portions of them may warrant a full freeway design upgrade based on the level of car and truck volumes, but that doesn't mean that they need to be in the Interstate system.  The Interstate system is a backbone system of the highest priority inter-state highways, which includes supplementary loops and spurs.

Interstates should always traverse between at least 2 states. Any interstate within one state should either be simply upgraded with no special designation, or a spur designation from it's parent, even in longer cases like I-42. I-42 should be I-340 or something IMO. If it entered another state, then a primary designation is fine.
As for I-795 and I-587, I think those interstates are fair to have, as they're branch routes of one main route.

The Interstate backbone system does include some mainline routes that are in only one state, as they function as mainline route connectors.  Such as I-4, I-16, I-66 (does enter D.C.), NY I-88, just to list a few that are in the original Interstate system of 1956 and 1968.  Are a bunch of new ones needed?  No.

[LM117]

the true purpose is to put a red, white, and blue shield in every Podunk town in eastern NC.

Exaggerate much? It's not like anybody is pushing for an interstate to connect Snow Hill and Saratoga. Other than I-87, what future interstate in eastern NC do you think is not warranted?

None of those roads that you listed warrant an Interstate route designation.  Portions of them may warrant a full freeway design upgrade based on the level of car and truck volumes, but that doesn't mean that they need to be in the Interstate system.  The Interstate system is a backbone system of the highest priority inter-state highways, which includes supplementary loops and spurs.

The Interstate system was also originally conceived as a way to serve the military. Considering that there are two military bases along the I-42 corridor, one of which is also served by I-795, that alone already makes US-70 and US-117 eligible for Interstate status.

[Beltway]

The Interstate system was also originally conceived as a way to serve the military. Considering that there are two military bases along the I-42 corridor, one of which is also served by I-795, that alone already makes US-70 and US-117 eligible for Interstate status.

Not true.  It was originally conceived as a way to serve both civil and military needs, actually primarily to serve the burgeoning civil traffic volumes after WW II.

[LM117]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.

It was much easier to get Congressional support by marketing I-87 as a way to connect two nearby large metros rather than trying to convince Congress that rural eastern NC wants to have an interstate connection to the Port of Virginia. Anybody reading between the lines can see what I-87's real purpose is.

[Beltway]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.

It was much easier to get Congressional support by marketing I-87 as a way to connect two nearby large metros rather than trying to convince Congress that rural eastern NC wants to have an interstate connection to the Port of Virginia. Anybody reading between the lines can see what I-87's real purpose is.

They are smart enough to be able to look on a map and see that that is not so.  Besides, it would only connect thru 4 counties, not "eastern NC".

[sprjus4]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.

It was much easier to get Congressional support by marketing I-87 as a way to connect two nearby large metros rather than trying to convince Congress that rural eastern NC wants to have an interstate connection to the Port of Virginia. Anybody reading between the lines can see what I-87's real purpose is.

They are smart enough to be able to look on a map and see that that is not so.  Besides, it would only connect thru 4 counties, not "eastern NC".

The route runs through towns in those counties & Elizabeth City itself, which are areas for growth. It's more Northeastern NC, as Eastern NC is too generic, the Southeast NC already has I-40, etc.

[Beltway]

They are smart enough to be able to look on a map and see that that is not so.  Besides, it would only connect thru 4 counties, not "eastern NC".

The route runs through towns in those counties & Elizabeth City itself, which are areas for growth. It's more Northeastern NC, as Eastern NC is too generic, the Southeast NC already has I-40, etc.

Why aren't they growing with the high speed high capacity 4-lane highway that already exists? 

Per Google Maps, Elizabeth City to downtown Norfolk is 47.2 miles and 51 minutes.   Few commuters would be willing to go that far, while that is an easy trip for a large truck.

[LM117]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.

It was much easier to get Congressional support by marketing I-87 as a way to connect two nearby large metros rather than trying to convince Congress that rural eastern NC wants to have an interstate connection to the Port of Virginia. Anybody reading between the lines can see what I-87's real purpose is.

They are smart enough to be able to look on a map and see that that is not so.  Besides, it would only connect thru 4 counties, not "eastern NC".

https://butterfield.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/butterfield-reintroduces-highway-bill-for-eastern-north-carolina-with

Specifically, H.R. 2211 guarantees that the corridor connecting Raleigh and Norfolk is built to interstate standards, that the route travels through eastern North Carolina

Butterfield said, "The ROAD Act will better connect eastern North Carolina to our state's Capitol and to one of the country's premier ports in Hampton Roads, Virginia. This bill is a key part of my vision to significantly advance transportation in the region and will, among other things, reduce traffic congestion, improve access, and pave the way for job creation and further economic development in North Carolina and Virginia. There is no question that this will boost the local and regional economies. I thank my colleagues for their support."

The Federal Highway Administration estimates that $1 billion in transportation funding can support approximately 30,000 jobs which would be critical to economic development in eastern North Carolina. Passing legislation to designate the highways as a future interstate can lead to modernization and investment in the region's highway infrastructure. This important bill is a key step in Butterfield's plan to build a strong transportation network, put North Carolinians to work, and accelerate the upgrade of U.S. highways 64 and 17.

"We appreciate the continued collaboration and support of Congressman Butterfield, Senator Tillis and the NC congressional delegation to strengthen vital transportation corridors in our state," said NCDOT Secretary Tony Tata. " This important designation will help better connect many areas of eastern North Carolina to jobs and other opportunities in the economic center of Hampton Roads and enhance freight movement as outlined in Governor McCrory's 25 Year Vision."

https://jones.house.gov/press-release/burr-tillis-butterfield-jones-introduce-bipartisan-bicameral-legislation-improve

This legislation is a complement to my previously enacted ROAD Act and Military Corridor Transportation Improvement Act and builds on my vision to better connect eastern North Carolina with Raleigh, the Port at Morehead City, and the Hampton Roads region of Virginia."

[Beltway]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.

It was much easier to get Congressional support by marketing I-87 as a way to connect two nearby large metros rather than trying to convince Congress that rural eastern NC wants to have an interstate connection to the Port of Virginia. Anybody reading between the lines can see what I-87's real purpose is.

They are smart enough to be able to look on a map and see that that is not so.  Besides, it would only connect thru 4 counties, not "eastern NC".

https://butterfield.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/butterfield-reintroduces-highway-bill-for-eastern-north-carolina-with

Specifically, H.R. 2211 guarantees that the corridor connecting Raleigh and Norfolk is built to interstate standards, that the route travels through eastern North Carolina

Politicians can wave their hands and make declarations and make "guarantees" and give speeches, all they want, but that doesn't mean that they are dealing with reality.

How can one state's general assembly "guarantee" what highway another state will build?   

[LM117]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.

It was much easier to get Congressional support by marketing I-87 as a way to connect two nearby large metros rather than trying to convince Congress that rural eastern NC wants to have an interstate connection to the Port of Virginia. Anybody reading between the lines can see what I-87's real purpose is.

They are smart enough to be able to look on a map and see that that is not so.  Besides, it would only connect thru 4 counties, not "eastern NC".

https://butterfield.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/butterfield-reintroduces-highway-bill-for-eastern-north-carolina-with

Specifically, H.R. 2211 guarantees that the corridor connecting Raleigh and Norfolk is built to interstate standards, that the route travels through eastern North Carolina

How can one state's general assembly "guarantee" what highway another state will build?   

Good grief...NC's General Assembly was not involved. It was a bill that was introduced in Congress in the spring of 2015, which later got absorbed into the FAST Act that Obama signed in December of that year. But Congress can't make states build highways, so in that respect your point carries.

[Beltway]

Specifically, H.R. 2211 guarantees that the corridor connecting Raleigh and Norfolk is built to interstate standards, that the route travels through eastern North Carolina

How can one state's general assembly "guarantee" what highway another state will build?   

Good grief...NC's General Assembly was not involved. It was a bill that was introduced in Congress in the spring of 2015, which later got absorbed into the FAST Act that Obama signed in December of that year. But Congress can't make states build highways, so in that respect your point carries.

My mistake ... I see it was a N.C. Congressman from the U.S. House of Representatives.  Nevertheless it is one person introducing a bill that may or may not be able move forward.

[sparker]

Specifically, H.R. 2211 guarantees that the corridor connecting Raleigh and Norfolk is built to interstate standards, that the route travels through eastern North Carolina

How can one state's general assembly "guarantee" what highway another state will build?   

Good grief...NC's General Assembly was not involved. It was a bill that was introduced in Congress in the spring of 2015, which later got absorbed into the FAST Act that Obama signed in December of that year. But Congress can't make states build highways, so in that respect your point carries.

My mistake ... I see it was a N.C. Congressman from the U.S. House of Representatives.  Nevertheless it is one person introducing a bill that may or may not be able move forward.

This is a variation on the old adage about leading a horse to water; in this case Butterfield & company crafted this legislation (back in 2015) which has since been passed as adding the Interstate designation to HPC 13.  The responsibility for that action is solely on Congress; but in this instance both the state legislature and NCDOT are in the process of "drinking that water"; only VA has demurred so far.  However, as I've stated upstream, NC and the interests within the state -- especially the NE quarter -- aren't likely to have much concern about the 9% of the corridor that's out of their state and therefore out of their control; they'll just chug away at building/modifying their 91% until it reaches the state line and slap up BGS's with "Norfolk" as the control city as well as a shitload of I-87 shields.  FWIW, they'll probably do the same with I-73 along US 220 up to the state line south of Martinsville (whether they have the brass ones to put "Roanoke" on those BGS's has yet TBD!).

[vdeane]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.

It was much easier to get Congressional support by marketing I-87 as a way to connect two nearby large metros rather than trying to convince Congress that rural eastern NC wants to have an interstate connection to the Port of Virginia. Anybody reading between the lines can see what I-87's real purpose is.

So basically, they lied and defrauded Congress to manipulate them into approving a route they otherwise would have balked at.

[Beltway]

This is a variation on the old adage about leading a horse to water; in this case Butterfield & company crafted this legislation (back in 2015) which has since been passed as adding the Interstate designation to HPC 13.  The responsibility for that action is solely on Congress; but in this instance both the state legislature and NCDOT are in the process of "drinking that water"; only VA has demurred so far.  However, as I've stated upstream, NC and the interests within the state -- especially the NE quarter -- aren't likely to have much concern about the 9% of the corridor that's out of their state and therefore out of their control; they'll just chug away at building/modifying their 91% until it reaches the state line and slap up BGS's with "Norfolk" as the control city as well as a shitload of I-87 shields.  FWIW, they'll probably do the same with I-73 along US 220 up to the state line south of Martinsville (whether they have the brass ones to put "Roanoke" on those BGS's has yet TBD!).

I have no issue with what N.C. does with I-73, after all that was authorized back in 1995 and VDOT competed a full NEPA process on the NC to I-81 segment in 2006.  I would like to see it built in the future, but there is that $4 billion cost...

And of course HPC 13 won't be an Interstate highway between those two cities unless and until it is completed over the whole distance.  When N.C. talks about "Norfolk" as the control city, are they assuming that I-464 will be renumbered and I-87 being overlapped onto I-264 into Norfolk?

HPC 13 is now entirely completed to 4-lane rural arterial standards as generally defined in the country.

[WashuOtaku]

When N.C. talks about "Norfolk" as the control city, are they assuming that I-464 will be renumbered and I-87 being overlapped onto I-264 into Norfolk?

No, they are using "Norfolk" as a destination, even if it means going onto another highway to get there. We have examples of this on every type of road, best example is all the roads that list "Myrtle Beach" as a destination, despite most converging onto US 501.

[Beltway]

When N.C. talks about "Norfolk" as the control city, are they assuming that I-464 will be renumbered and I-87 being overlapped onto I-264 into Norfolk?

No, they are using "Norfolk" as a destination, even if it means going onto another highway to get there. We have examples of this on every type of road, best example is all the roads that list "Myrtle Beach" as a destination, despite most converging onto US 501.

The City of Chesapeake is a major city in and of itself, and it is definitely separate from Norfolk.

[sparker]

And of course HPC 13 won't be an Interstate highway between those two cities unless and until it is completed over the whole distance.  When N.C. talks about "Norfolk" as the control city, are they assuming that I-464 will be renumbered and I-87 being overlapped onto I-264 into Norfolk?

Of course it won't be an Interstate highway between those two cities, it'll be an Interstate highway between Raleigh and the NC/VA state line prior to VA upgrading their portion (if that occurs at all).  But signage over just the completed portions hasn't been an issue with other NC Interstates (73 and 74 immediately come to mind); it'll likely happen with I-87 as well -- at least after the substandard portion from east of Raleigh to Tarboro is brought up to snuff. 

Don't get me wrong -- I have doubts about whether this corridor is the best regional solution to egress from the Hampton Roads metro area to the south -- but I have absolutely no doubts as to NC's resolve about building it anyway.  But considering some of the info that's been forthcoming in other NC-related threads, there might well be a "back-door" silver lining to all this if the state eventually decides to slap an Interstate-grade freeway along the rest of US 17 down through Wilmington to SC.  The region gets the N-S Atlantic corridor it's really always wanted, and that POS I-87 designation may yet get usurped.  And present US 64 reverts (albeit upgraded) to what it always has been -- a cross-state arterial (although I wouldn't expect NCDOT to remove Norfolk as a control city at the present I-95/US 64 interchange).  I'll even venture a guess that this scenario is on paper or in file form somewhere in the bowels of NCDOT, in the queue to be trotted out after other nascent corridors are well under way.  At this point, I wouldn't put anything of the sort past them and their political handlers! 

[LM117]

That's not how I recall them selling I-87 to AASHTO and the FHWA.

It was much easier to get Congressional support by marketing I-87 as a way to connect two nearby large metros rather than trying to convince Congress that rural eastern NC wants to have an interstate connection to the Port of Virginia. Anybody reading between the lines can see what I-87's real purpose is.

So basically, they lied and defrauded Congress to manipulate them into approving a route they otherwise would have balked at.

To an extent. However, bear in mind what I linked earlier. NC's Congressional delegation made it no secret what I-87's true purpose is when the ROAD Act was first introduced. What really sealed the deal was the fact that the Regional Transportation Alliance in Raleigh pushed and lobbied hard for a Raleigh-Norfolk interstate, as well as support from Hampton Roads. You would've been hard put to find any local politician that would've opposed giving the world's largest naval base an additional interstate connection. Whenever there's a military base along or at the beginning/end of a proposed interstate, it makes getting it approved much easier.

In other words, eastern NC threw the football and Raleigh & Norfolk ran it to the end zone. Eastern NC gets the interstate they want while Raleigh & Hampton Roads take the credit.

Near the bottom of this page is a list of politicians and local governments/other groups that endorsed I-87's corridor:

http://letsgetmoving.org/priorities/congestion-relief/interstate-87/i-495-future-i-44-learn-more/